View Full Version : how to rotate ilex #5
Hello,
I got an old Italian view camera from the fifties, a Fatif: a very sturdy one. With the camera came a lens that I like a lot: a Kodak Commercial Ektar 14' f6.3. in Ilex Universal Syncro shutter #5. Lens and shutter are well mounted in an old type Linhof Technika lensboard, the one that looks squared in regular shape. My problem is that the screw plug in the shutter is too on the side, too close to the structure of the camera, this makes the operation to screw and unscrew the flexible to the shutter difficult and with danger of damage for both flexible and shutter. Question:
- How can I rotate, just some degrees, the shutter on the lensboard without making a mess?
Try to attach images below
173909173910173911
C'mon, I know that my question sounds really stupid, is that I'm scared to make damages, I don't know where and what I can turn or unscrew with strength without any broke.
BrianShaw
20-Jan-2018, 06:21
If you want an answer from someone who really knows what they are talking about it may be worth being a bit more patient.
Or.. I can give you my semi-knowledgeable suggestion.
BrianShaw
20-Jan-2018, 06:32
The shutter appears to be mounted using its flange. The flange appears to have been properly affixed to the front of the lensboard with screws, probably two from your pics and probably threaded.
Screw out the rear lens element. Turn counterclockwise
Screw out the shutter. You can leave the front lens element in place. Turn counterclockwise.
You should now see an aluminum flange with 4 screw holes. That flange needs to rotate to position the shutter in your desired orientation.
BrianShaw
20-Jan-2018, 06:32
Oh, and welcome to the forum.
Jac@stafford.net
20-Jan-2018, 08:45
I believe Brian is correct. I'll add that it appears that the shutter was released using a push-pull solenoid. Making a finger release might be another challenge. Please stay in touch. It's an interesting project.
(I have had the worst luck with that shutter. Both of mine are broken.)
BrianShaw
20-Jan-2018, 09:13
One more piece of input. If turning the shutter 90 degrees will fix the problem for you then the solution should be simple. If not, see if you can mount the shutter using the flange reversed from the back side of the lens board, as a normal retaining ring. That is the other “legitimate way” that works well with some metal lens boards.
Alan Gales
20-Jan-2018, 10:58
Just to add to Brian's great reply. The shutter may have been mounted in the retaining flange for a long time and it may be a little stuck. I would remove the rear lens element as Brian suggests and I would also remove the front lens element. Since the Ilex #5 is such a large shutter you may find it easier to hold the lens board in one hand and the shutter in the other with both lens cells removed. With a counter clockwise twisting motion separate the two. Like Brian says there are 4 screws holding the retaining flange to the lens board. The board will have to be drilled for new fasteners to attach it to the board in a new position.
One more thing to add. The Ilex #5 shutters take a long throw cable release. Most cable releases have too short a throw and will not work. Modern new Gepe releases will work as will the older Prontor releases. You have to find the Prontors used though.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=Gene%20cable%20releases&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=
Welcome to the forum and enjoy the lens. I own a Kodak 14" Commercial Ektar in a #5 Ilex shutter and it is my favorite lens! :)
Thanks to you all,
now I'm still scared to work on the lens/shutter but at least I have an idea on how the combo is assembled.
Brian: thanks Brian, sorry if I pushed a bit for an answer, i'm new to the forum and to the lens so I was a bit overexcited. =)
Jac: I had the same suspect of a selenoid release (is something like the small 'gas tank' used in some Speed Graphic cameras, I suppose). Thanks Jac.
Alan: You are right about the long throw cable release, of the two cables I have just one is working with this shutter. Long live the 14' Commercial Ektar! Thanks to you too, Alan.
tgtaylor
20-Jan-2018, 13:28
Here is a disassembled view of a 610 apo-Nikkor mounted on a toyo 159mm board in a Ilex-5 shutter by SK Grimes:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4707/39802171741_5f8efc720b_b.jpg
I opened the shutter to f9 to protect the blades, unscrewed the front element, unscrewed the rear element and then unscrewed the shutter exposing the flange mounted to the board with 4 phillips head screws. This was a brand new lens so the threaded screws were supplied with the lens by Nikon and Adam trimmed them flush with the back of the board. If I wanted to reorient the flange 90 degrees I would simply remove them with a phillips screwdriver and reorient the flange keeping in mind which hole each screw was removed from in case of a threading problem.
This exercise allowed me to remove a solitary spec of dust that had settled on the inside of the front element (top left).
Thomas
The lens is held to the board by screwing the shutter to a flange that is held to the lens board by screws or rivets... To remove shutter from board, you would rotate the shutter counterclockwise to unscrew it... Might be a little stuck now, but it will unscrew somehow...
If you want to rotate the orientation of the controls on the shutter, do not try to unscrew the flange from the lens board (because it was quite a challenge for someone to mount a large Ilex #5 on a small Technika board, and the screws/rivets cannot interfere with the board and F/S mounting fit), but once the shutter rotates, you can unscrew it and place paper/plastic/sheet film spacer rings, or get an o-ring, so when you tighten down the shutter, it will stop turning somewhere else during rotation, and add/subtract spacers until it is where you want it...
Good Luck!!!
Steve K
Jac@stafford.net
20-Jan-2018, 13:35
Oi, I'm so disorganized. I have the #5 board (for Sinar) right on the bench, under my 2017 tax forms. Rotating the flange 90º should do the trick. Fear not. My flange has a shallow expressed ring/ridge (~1.1mm) on the front that allows the shutter to screw on without interfering with the aperture setting ring.
Do it. Be happy.
Alan Gales
20-Jan-2018, 15:44
Jac's idea may work for you. Steve (LabRat) has a novel idea that would work for you. Both would be easier than redrilling the lens board.
That's one of the great things about this forum. Everyone has their own ideas! ;)
BrianShaw
20-Jan-2018, 16:04
There are 3 opportunities when rotating the flange: 90, 180, and 270. One of them should work. If not, I’d do like I did — use the flange in its alternate configuration as a lens retaining ring.
There are 3 opportunities when rotating the flange: 90, 180, and 270. One of them should work. If not, I’d do like I did — use the flange in its alternate configuration as a lens retaining ring.
Yea, but hole spacing on many flanges are not precision drilled, so don't line up perfectly in other orientations...
But like I said, this can be difficult mounting a #5 to a Linhof board, so don't mess with it, but work around it...
Steve K
Alan Gales
20-Jan-2018, 16:38
Yea, but hole spacing on many flanges are not precision drilled, so don't line up perfectly in other orientations...
But like I said, this can be difficult mounting a #5 to a Linhof board, so don't mess with it, but work around it...
Steve K
Ari had the same lens and shutter before he bought his Cooke. He said that he had a machine shop mount his flange to the small Technika board. It's not an easy mount, like you say. Mine is mounted to a much larger Wehman board.
Ari had the same lens and shutter before he bought his Cooke. He said that he had a machine shop mount his flange to the small Technika board. It's not an easy mount, like you say. Mine is mounted to a much larger Wehman board.
Not easy to mount larger, oversized lenses/shutters to a Linhof Tek board!!!! The boards are thin so hard to drill/tap into them, and the screws tend to always interfere with the light trap and mounting to the F/S... Then there's the limited space on the front for control operation on the F/S, but possible at MAYBE one orientation...
I finally managed to mount a 135mm WF Ektar on the front of my old style Tek III, but a tight fit and barely enough room to operate the side mounted levers, etc, but I did it... (But some Copal/Prontors barely or didn't make the cut, so a gamble you take...)
Steve K
Done! I didn't touch the four screws as the flange is so well mounted that I wan't mess it: just paper tape, four small stripes (1cm by 0,5 sort of) each 90°, with the border just touching the flange border. I started with double thickness but it was too much, so just a single tape thickness and the lens is now rotated by 45°, exactly, and the cable release has a clear access to the shutter. Thanks to you all!
173940
before
173942
after
BrianShaw
21-Jan-2018, 05:53
Bravo; Congratulations!
Jac@stafford.net
21-Jan-2018, 08:54
Did that change the front to rear lens spacing?
tgtaylor
21-Jan-2018, 09:32
Poor Bante doesn't know it yet but he just F@#$%& his lens up! But that's what happens when you rely on internet chat boards - you get all kinds of whacko suggestions. Far better would have been to send the lens along with a new board to a professional like Grimes and have it mounted correctly.
Thomas
BrianShaw
21-Jan-2018, 09:51
If the tape is a shim between the shutter and the flange how likely is it to change the lens spacing?
BrianShaw
21-Jan-2018, 09:52
Poor Bante doesn't know it yet but he just F@#$%& his lens up! But that's what happens when you rely on internet chat boards - you get all kinds of whacko suggestions. Far better would have been to send the lens along with a new board to a professional like Grimes and have it mounted correctly.
Thomas
Almost as bad as erroneous internet advise is exaggerated internet fear-mongering. :)
Louis Pacilla
21-Jan-2018, 10:04
Almost as bad as erroneous internet advise is exaggerated internet fear-mongering. :)
Yep!
Jac@stafford.net
21-Jan-2018, 10:11
If the tape is a shim between the shutter and the flange how likely is it to change the lens spacing?
Quite likely. It should shift the sharper plane towards infinity but how much it matters for the photographer is up to what he shoots and his personal preference.
And what he did, he can undo easily.
BrianShaw
21-Jan-2018, 10:17
Quite likely. It should shift the sharper plane towards infinity but how much it matters for the photographer is up to what he shoots and his personal preference.
And what he did, he can undo easily.
I’m struggling to understand, Jac.
If both lens elements seat on the shutter...
... just as they did before a shim was placed between the shutter and the flange...
... a dimensional change that doesn’t matter at all ...
... just like shimming between the flange and the lens board ( even though I can’t imagine a good reason to do that on a view camera.
And, yes, the shimming or flange rotation ( if that was possible, is completely reversible.
Louis Pacilla
21-Jan-2018, 10:22
Quite likely. It should shift the sharper plane towards infinity but how much it matters for the photographer is up to what he shoots and his personal preference.
And what he did, he can undo easily.
? :confused:
Taping the flange rim so the orientation of the shutter on lens board is different to when the shutter is screwed home will have no effect on the distance between lens cells to the shutters iris.
Am I missing something?
Louis Pacilla
21-Jan-2018, 10:24
I’m struggling to understand, Jac.
If both lens elements seat on the shutter...
... just as they did before a shim was placed between the shutter and the flange...
... a dimensional change that doesn’t matter at all ...
... just like shimming between the flange and the lens board ( even though I can’t imagine a good reason to do that on a view camera.
And, yes, the shimming or flange rotation ( if that was possible, is completely reversible.
? :confused:
Taping the flange rim so the orientation of the shutter on lens board is different to when the shutter is screwed home will have no effect on the distance between lens cells to the shutters iris.
Am I missing something?
I believe we're saying the same thing! Right Brian?
BrianShaw
21-Jan-2018, 10:29
I believe we're saying the same thing! Right Brian?
Right.
Jac@stafford.net
21-Jan-2018, 10:31
I’m struggling to understand, Jac.
If both lens elements seat on the shutter...
As I understood it, the tape keeps the shutter farther from the flange, thus the two lenses do not seat at the designed distance.
Louis Pacilla
21-Jan-2018, 10:41
As I understood it, the tape keeps the shutter farther from the flange, thus the two lenses do not seat at the designed distance.
So what? Should have NO effect on image formed by the 14" f6.3 KCE '''''IF''''' the cell to iris spacing is not changed.
BrianShaw
21-Jan-2018, 10:42
As I understood it, the tape keeps the shutter farther from the flange, thus the two lenses do not seat at the designed distance.
I’ll have to look at my CE’s in Ilex, but I don’t recall the rear element seating against the flange. I believe the lens elements seat properly against the shutter faces independent of the flange.
Jac@stafford.net
21-Jan-2018, 10:47
So what? Should have NO effect on image formed by the 14" f6.3 KCE '''''IF''''' the cell to iris spacing is not changed.
OMG, this not a good Sunday morning. Two goofs in two threads. You and the rest except tgtaylor are right. The OP should be good to go.
Given this fuzzy state I should not bet on todays NFL game. :)
BrianShaw
21-Jan-2018, 10:57
OMG, this not a good Sunday morning. Two goofs in two threads. You and the rest except tgtaylor are right. The OP should be good to go.
Given this fuzzy state I should not bet on todays NFL game. :)
Jac, why don’t you pop by my house... I’ll make you some really good coffee and some toast made with homemade Irish oatmeal bread. That might help you restart the day!
tgtaylor
21-Jan-2018, 11:00
LOL!
A shim is a thin and often tapered or wedged piece of material, used to fill small gaps or spaces between objects. Shims are typically used in order to support, adjust for better fit, or provide a level surface. Shims may also be used as spacers to fill gaps between parts subject to wear.
It seems that I recall numerous posts on this forum about lens manufacturers placing shims to correct optical performance for minor manufacturing defects and the necessity to replace those shims after taking the lens apart to maintain optical integrity.
Thomas
Alan Gales
21-Jan-2018, 11:09
If the tape is a shim between the shutter and the flange how likely is it to change the lens spacing?
The lens cell spacing will remain the same.
BrianShaw
21-Jan-2018, 11:13
LOL!
It seems that I recall numerous posts on this forum about lens manufacturers placing shims to correct optical performance for minor manufacturing defects and the necessity to replace those shims after taking the lens apart to maintain optical integrity.
Thomas
Your memory is correct but those shims are between the lens elements and the shutter, not between the shutter and its mounting flange... as in this use of a shim.
Alan Gales
21-Jan-2018, 11:13
LOL!
It seems that I recall numerous posts on this forum about lens manufacturers placing shims to correct optical performance for minor manufacturing defects and the necessity to replace those shims after taking the lens apart to maintain optical integrity.
Thomas
Yes, but those shims change the spacing between one of the cells and the shutter. Not the distance between the shutter and the retaining ring.
Alan Gales
21-Jan-2018, 11:31
Wow Brian. Both at 14:13. You beat me by seconds! :)
BrianShaw
21-Jan-2018, 11:37
I’m in Los Angeles... just a few milliseconds closer to the server.
tgtaylor
21-Jan-2018, 11:48
LOL - unbelievable! Maybe one of you could show exactly where each of the 4 tape strips should be placed on the photo in post #10 above to achieve a 45 degree torque on the shutter? Educate us!
Thomas
BrianShaw
21-Jan-2018, 12:11
LOL - unbelievable! Maybe one of you could show exactly where each of the 4 tape strips should be placed on the photo in post #10 above to achieve a 45 degree torque on the shutter? Educate us!
Thomas
LOL, unbelievable indeed. I would, but you never told us how big ( or small) that piece of dust was. :)
Alan Gales
21-Jan-2018, 12:18
Stick the tape to the back of the shutter at the base of the threads. This would prevent the shutter from screwing down completely to the flange. The shutter release nipple will now be at a different angle when the shutter is mounted. The amount of difference in angle would depend upon the thickness of the tape and also how much compression the tape has.
Why do you think the distance between the flange and the shutter affects the distance between the two cells?
tgtaylor
21-Jan-2018, 12:52
Stick the tape to the back of the shutter at the base of the threads. This would prevent the shutter from screwing down completely to the flange. The shutter release nipple will now be at a different angle when the shutter is mounted. The amount of difference in angle would depend upon the thickness of the tape and also how much compression the tape has.
Why do you think the distance between the flange and the shutter affects the distance between the two cells?
What is the difference between using tape to prevent the shutter from screwing down completely to the flange or simply unloosing the shutter? in either case the distance between the elements have been increased.
Thomas
Jac@stafford.net
21-Jan-2018, 13:22
What is the difference between using tape to prevent the shutter from screwing down completely to the flange or simply unloosing the shutter? in either case the distance between the elements have been increased.
Moving the shutter as a unit in the flange does not change cell spacing. We are simply unscrewing the whole shutter in the flange a little bit.
Alan Gales
21-Jan-2018, 13:22
What is the difference between using tape to prevent the shutter from screwing down completely to the flange or simply unloosing the shutter? in either case the distance between the elements have been increased.
Thomas
Yes, you are correct. Both increase the distance. The problem in just loosening the shutter is that it is free to loosen or tighten as you use it. With the tape the shutter is screwed down tight.
It's just like when you put a washer on a bolt.
BrianShaw
21-Jan-2018, 13:24
What is the difference between using tape to prevent the shutter from screwing down completely to the flange or simply unloosing the shutter? in either case the distance between the elements have been increased.
Thomas
The only difference would be whether the shutter remains free to rotate within the mounting flange threads or not. Not being free to randomly rotate is a benefit of the shim.
But... Why do you think the distance between the flange and the shutter affects the distance between the two cells?
tgtaylor
21-Jan-2018, 16:12
Well I was wrong and apologize. I took my lens apart again and found that it is possible to adjust the distance between the shutter and flange without changing the distance between the optical elements. Rather than paper I would have tried to find a small metal washer making it permanent.
Thomas
BrianShaw
21-Jan-2018, 16:48
No problem, Thomas. Interesting discussion!
tgtaylor
21-Jan-2018, 17:43
Thank you Brian.
Actually I would have adjusted the position of the flange as set-out in my post above (#10) as at that point it is simply a matter of removing the 4 screws with a Philips screwdriver and repositioning the flange. Why mess with tape which can easily result in the shutter not being exactly parallel to the board or looking for a suitable metal washer when 2 minutes with the screwdriver results in a permanent fix that has no issues.
LOL, unbelievable indeed. I would, but you never told us how big ( or small) that piece of dust was. :)
I never noticed it when composing but when I removed the element it stood out as a tiny bright shiny object on the glass as if a moisture it, I thought, a scratch. But one puff with the blower and it was gone. I now suspect that it was a small sliver of the shutter housing that became detached while disassembling the lens and settled on the glass.
Thomas
Jac@stafford.net
21-Jan-2018, 18:21
Thank you Brian.
Actually I would have adjusted the position of the flange as set-out in my post above (#10) as at that point it is simply a matter of removing the 4 screws with a Philips screwdriver and repositioning the flange.
It is helpful to understand that many of our constituency do not have a drill, much less a drill-press or other shop tools that make life easier. More power to those who make-do!
Alan Gales
21-Jan-2018, 18:44
Well I was wrong and apologize. I took my lens apart again and found that it is possible to adjust the distance between the shutter and flange without changing the distance between the optical elements. Rather than paper I would have tried to find a small metal washer making it permanent.
Thomas
No worries. We've all been there. Sometimes a person can get something stuck in their brain and it's hard to shake it out. :)
Alan Gales
21-Jan-2018, 19:03
Actually I would have adjusted the position of the flange as set-out in my post above (#10) as at that point it is simply a matter of removing the 4 screws with a Philips screwdriver and repositioning the flange. Why mess with tape which can easily result in the shutter not being exactly parallel to the board or looking for a suitable metal washer when 2 minutes with the screwdriver results in a permanent fix that has no issues.
Thomas
Yes, that would give three other positions for the shutter. One of the those positions might work fine for the OP. Someone suggested that the holes in the board might not line up perfectly with the holes in the retaining ring after you rotated it. If this is true then it wouldn't work.
With various thicknesses of tape you might be able to adjust the amount of the rotation better.
I think either suggestion might work fine.
No changes: is like to move the whole block (shutter, front lens, back lens) a bit forward. Nothing change.
tgtaylor
23-Jan-2018, 13:51
Yes, that would give three other positions for the shutter. One of the those positions might work fine for the OP. Someone suggested that the holes in the board might not line up perfectly with the holes in the retaining ring after you rotated it. If this is true then it wouldn't work.
With various thicknesses of tape you might be able to adjust the amount of the rotation better.
I think either suggestion might work fine.
Of course if it wasn't true, then it would work and would be far better and quicker than fooling with tape which is not permanent and will soon have to be replaced. Far better than tape would have been to use a metal washer which would be a permanent solution while maintaining parallel integrity.
But the photographs supplied by the OP don't show the flange just the front and rear elements removed with a roll of tape nearby. There is nothing to indicate that tape was placed between the shutter and flange and the positioning of the tape was supplied not by the OP but by someone else. "Fake news"?
6 pages?? really???
hahahahahahaha
Jac@stafford.net
23-Jan-2018, 14:28
Far better than tape would have been to use a metal washer which would be a permanent solution while maintaining parallel integrity.
Kind of a bi-polar response, me thinks.
Can you point us to a supplier of precision, or precise-enough shims? And do we know if the flange has a 1.1mm shoulder as mine does, and how do we cope with that?
I'm done. Thanks for reading.
I just use sheet film for a even thickness shim (cut with a circle compass cutter)... Scotch tape is a good thin adjustment strip... You can get S/S or brass shim stock in different thicknesses if metal is needed, but just a paper spacer is all that's needed for something that does not get unscrewed often...
Steve K
BrianShaw
23-Jan-2018, 15:13
6 pages?? really???
hahahahahahaha
The funniest thing is that the guy asking the question has fixed his problem and is out shooting pictures, while others are...
Alan Gales
23-Jan-2018, 16:33
Of course if it wasn't true, then it would work and would be far better and quicker than fooling with tape which is not permanent and will soon have to be replaced. Far better than tape would have been to use a metal washer which would be a permanent solution while maintaining parallel integrity.
But the photographs supplied by the OP don't show the flange just the front and rear elements removed with a roll of tape nearby. There is nothing to indicate that tape was placed between the shutter and flange and the positioning of the tape was supplied not by the OP but by someone else. "Fake news"?
I'd be a lot more worried about film flatness in a film holder than maintaining parallel integrity when using a metal washer or bit of tape. Large format cameras are not precision instruments like Swiss mechanical watches nor do they need to be.
Jac@stafford.net
23-Jan-2018, 16:40
I just use sheet film for a even thickness shim (cut with a circle compass cutter)...
A most excellent solution! Thanks!
Jim Galli
24-Jan-2018, 21:16
Almost as bad as erroneous internet advise is exaggerated internet fear-mongering. :)
The funniest thing is that the guy asking the question has fixed his problem and is out shooting pictures, while others are...
7 pages? Really? Brian is absolutely right. Send the lens elements to Grimes and have him remount them in a NEW OLD STOCK shutter and have them find a new old stock lens board and mount the new shutter to the new board, and when you get it back 18 months later and you're $1800 poorer for a 25 cent problem, hire somebody to take the pictures because you might not be able to do that right either.
Where did I put my waders. The poor OP probably feels like the folks in Montecito. Except it isn't mud.
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