Teak, Maple or American Black Cherry wood

[echo-point]

5 x 4 wood types

[Jac@stafford.net]

Almost any wood used in good LF cameras today are stable enough for your lifetime, and for your great-great grandchildren.

Aesthetics - subjective - your choice. I build mine in Cherry with supports in Oak.

[jriosa]

What factors differentiate between types of woods that are chosen by view camera designers ? Which wood types are best or recommended for the manufacture of field cameras in terms of their rigidity and resistance to warping over the years etc. Are teak, maple and cherry woods similar enough in density, grain strength etc. to make this more of an aesthetic choice with modern CNC machining techniques etc. ? ...Furniture maker here. Teak is much denser, and a bitch to glue. Mahogany is a good choice. Main thing is you want really straight, tight grain. If I had my choice I would use quarter sawn ash. Stable dimensionally, not too heavy, and machines well.

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[Mark Sampson]

When the best-quality wood was cheap and plentiful, the camera makers chose mahogany and cherry. Exactly why, I can't say; someone here will know.
I've had wooden cameras made of maple (Ansco), cherry (Tachihara), and mahogany (Zone VI). They all work.
Ebony made cameras of ebony, Wista has used rosewood, and Rajah made cameras of teak.
For beauty, my 8x10 ROC Carlton was the prettiest- but it was made in the 1890s and I doubt that you can get mahogany like that any more.
I've heard of ones made of pearwood (only a few made) and now people are using plywood... so it seems that there's no single answer.

[Peter Collins]

I have checked wood density--maple, teak, cherry--specifically, and American black cherry is the least dense of the three. Maybe you will shave some grams by using cherry. Cherry develops a wonderful "chestnut" (cherry?) color as it ages in sunlight, and maybe most light.

[Drew Wiley]

The devil is in the details - what kind of "teak", what actual kind and cut of so-called mahogany. How has it been cured and stored? How homogenous is the wood? For example, plain kiln-dried cherry will be a lot easier to machine and finish than fancy cherry. True pattern-grade Honduras mahogany (if you can find and afford it) will be more dimensionally stable and less likely to warp than other so-called mahoganies. Hope you've got at least twenty years to slow cure it, however. Get a handbook on hardwoods, talk to some serious woodworkers. CNC is better for plywoods, not in my opinion for typical dimensional hardwood fabrication. Have fun.

[Leszek Vogt]

Sure, density of the wood is one thing, both cherry and mahogany tends to be more stable after the drying/kiln process (huge plus). Getting the wood to proper moisture level (as normal furniture) is v. important, as well. Some woods are little more difficult to deal with such as birds-eye maple (tear out) or cocobolo is quite acidic when it falls on flesh - it can cause a rash. There are work arounds, like using seriously sharp tools or covering your arms with long sleeve shirt...aside from standard lung/eye protection. Good luck.

Les

[Drew Wiley]

Maple is solid but heavy, and tough for a beginner because it's burn-mark prone. I recently set up a dustless (yep) shaper for narrow stock. But if you're not out to win a beauty prize and just care for functionality, don't rule out certain sheet goods. Dick Phillips was the first to use custom plys. I bought one of his first 8X10's, and it has held up wonderfully.

[Drew Bedo]

From what little experience I have had working with wood for sailboat trim: Teak has mineral inclusions INTHE WOOD GRAIN. These inclusions are what makes Teak resistant to insect damage and fungal rot, but cause cutting tools to dull quickly.


Years ago (mid 1990s) I bought a" Baby Deardorff" knock-off at the Houston Camera Show. It was a Rajah from India and the wood was some beautiful tropical hardwood that looked like Rosewood or Cocobolo. Wish I still had it just to look at.

[Vaughn]

...Years ago (mid 1990s) I bought a" Baby Deardorff" knock-off at the Houston Camera Show. It was a Rajah from India and the wood was some beautiful tropical hardwood that looked like Rosewood or Cocobolo. Wish I still had it just to look at.

I had one, too. Bought new in 1980...exactly like a 'Special". Wood was beautiful -- metal work, so-so. Mine was stolen in 1995 (with a Deardorff 5x7 back).

A friend makes his ULF cameras (and tripods and even a lens barrel) out of walnut...but then he is a walnut-nut.

[LabRat]

Whatever turns you on, as long as the wood has been properly dried before construction...

One fairly recent consideration is about the use of rosewood, (according to a recent NPR feature) as it has been getting scarce from S India, where some countries will not allow import, or even parts of guitars or other musical instruments, pens, etc will be held at customs due to the ban, so might be a travel no/no...

Any wood is good if properly sealed...

Steve K

[Drew Wiley]

Drew (other than me) - there are quite a few high silica hardwoods which eat up carbide. Some also have nasty resins to defeat bugs, fungi, and woodworkers who forget to wear dust masks! And now there are actually some farmed hybrid hardwoods which combine desirable characteristics and spare endangered forests. I have some "Lyptus" in the shop which resembles mahogany but is far stronger and heavier. And it's high silica. But it loses the beauty contest to the genuine Honduras mahogany I have in the adjacent bin, given to me leftover from a major high-end remodel. But for a camera, don't forget alder, the poor man's cherry. Machines well and just needs some stain.

[LabRat]

Drew (other than me) - there are quite a few high silica hardwoods which eat up carbide. Some also have nasty resins to defeat bugs, fungi, and woodworkers who forget to wear dust masks! And now there are actually some farmed hybrid hardwoods which combine desirable characteristics and spare endangered forests. I have some "Lyptus" in the shop which resembles mahogany but is far stronger and heavier. And it's high silica. But it loses the beauty contest to the genuine Honduras mahogany I have in the adjacent bin, given to me leftover from a major high-end remodel. But for a camera, don't forget alder, the poor man's cherry. Machines well and just needs some stain.

As I have heard, the silica comes from growing in sandy soil, where the tree absorbs the microsilica...

Steve K

[Steven Tribe]

As I have heard, the silica comes from growing in sandy soil, where the tree absorbs the microsilica...

Steve K

I suppose it is possible that some sand becomes ingested through the bark, but the reason for unusual mineral content is a combination of plant genetics and good old fashioned Darwin "survival of the fittest"; that is, those that develop natural fungi- and pesticides. This has been covered in lots of earlier threads, but the great majority of commercial timbers available to-day are plantation trees. This often means they have identical genetic origins. Selection is based on quick growth and suitability for "general" timber work - economic reasons. When mahogany and other trees were harvested from wild, there was much more variation in the growth, figuring and colour - even between trees which had grown up next to each other.

[barnacle]

I might be tempted to hang around the auction showrooms, with an eye to hundred-year-old chests of drawers... that's probably pretty stable wood, by now.

Neil

[LabRat]

I might be tempted to hang around the auction showrooms, with an eye to hundred-year-old chests of drawers... that's probably pretty stable wood, by now.

Neil

Wasn't that the stuff Brian May (and his dad) made his guitars out of (old fireplace mantles, etc)???

When some old wood really hardens up, it can be difficult to cut (and dangerous!!!)...

Don't chop up good furniture, but maybe try a architectural salvage place to see if they have anything suitable...

Newer wood might behave better for precision cutting

Steve K

[aclark]

I might be tempted to hang around the auction showrooms, with an eye to hundred-year-old chests of drawers... that's probably pretty stable wood, by now.

Neil

That's an excellent idea. I am using some mahogany from an old table, for the neck of a Classical guitar that I am building at the moment. It is wonderful stuff, genuine Central American mahogany top quality. You simply can't get this from timber yards, where they call all kinds of wood "mahogany", now the real stuff isn't generally available.
Someone asked why mahogany was used for old cameras. It is partly because it is one of the most stable woods, i.e. it doesn't shrink or expand very much when the air goes dry or damp. So intricate sliding parts don't go loose or jam up. It is also very nice to work with. And it is what cabinet makers-who made the first cameras, in the UK anyway- were using at the time cameras were invented.
Regarding teak, some UK camera manufacturers made a teak model, specifically for people who were going off to India, teak being more resistant to insect attack.
For most of the woods being discussed here, the way the wood is cut from the tree is more important than the actual wood species. Radially cut wood ("quarter sawn" ) is more stable than flat sawn. And fancy grain may look pretty, but straight-grained wood is more rigid, and much easier to work if you are making your own camera with, maybe, fairly limited skills.

Alan

[aclark]

When some old wood really hardens up, it can be difficult to cut (and dangerous!!!)...



Newer wood might behave better for precision cutting

Steve K

?????
Really?

Alan

[Bob Salomon]

When the best-quality wood was cheap and plentiful, the camera makers chose mahogany and cherry. Exactly why, I can't say; someone here will know.
I've had wooden cameras made of maple (Ansco), cherry (Tachihara), and mahogany (Zone VI). They all work.
Ebony made cameras of ebony, Wista has used rosewood, and Rajah made cameras of teak.
For beauty, my 8x10 ROC Carlton was the prettiest- but it was made in the 1890s and I doubt that you can get mahogany like that any more.
I've heard of ones made of pearwood (only a few made) and now people are using plywood... so it seems that there's no single answer.

Wista makes/made their 45 cameras from: cherry wood; rosewood; ebony and quince wood. Not just checking rosewood.

[Vaughn]

An interesting aside: I was recently in Japan, looking at some of the old shrines and temple structures, and staying with my son who was doing some research on traditional tools and methods of the temple carpenters. One book (translated into English) had some interesting graphs showing the changes cut wood undergoes over time and how it differs in the species used in temple structures (mostly soft woods...ceder, but also what looked to be a cousin of the California laurel or Oregon myrtle). For example, compression strength increases (at the cost of increased brittleness) at different rates in different species. Since some of these structures have been standing for 4 or more centuries, I appreciated the long-view of wood selection that went into these structures.

I imagine that hard woods could undergo structural changes over a period of 100 years or more (if one is talking old furniture) that would make working the wood very different than freshly dried wood.

[Drew Wiley]

The characteristics of some species can be partially determined by specific soil conditions; but they wouldn't grow there to begin with if the conditions weren't right. At the moment I'm at a table which made from leftover maple flooring and lovely ipe which I moulded. Talk about some hard nasty stuff! But it's beautiful with a marine finish on it, and best of all, the cats don't claw at it like they do with any wood with texture.

[Steven Tribe]

I might be tempted to hang around the auction showrooms, with an eye to hundred-year-old chests of drawers... that's probably pretty stable wood, by now.

Neil

Be warned! Almost all 100 year old chest of drawers in the UK will be made from mahogany veneer! Better chances with small tables or butler's trays. These cost little if there is a lot of superficial surface damage.

[LabRat]

?????
Really?

Alan

Yes, for example, out here in the wild, wild west, there are desert species that are very, very dense, and with aging, seem to become a "stone" living fossil...

An old neighbor of mine was given an antique Mexican "wood" shelf, that he wanted to cut down to size, but was so dense, heavy, and hardened, you could tap a pen against it and it would ring like stone... He tried to test cut a thin piece off with a metal blade hacksaw, but it just grooved it like it was stone... He wanted to rip cut the shelves, but I saw that there was a very pronounced grain pattern that would probably drift the cut along the table saw fence and possibly bind... I advised against it, except maybe using a diamond cut-off wheel and cooling... He changed his mind about the project...

Cutting into a knot, or cross-cutting old hardened wood can lead to surprises!!! I've broken carbide drill bits drilling into an old root stump (as density layers can force the drill or blade to deflect causing binding)... :-0

Steve K

[Simon Benton]

I am a retired cabinet maker and am currently building a 4 x 10 camera as a winter project. I am making it of old growth mahogany that came from a chest my great grandmother owned in London, England and was passed onto me. Much too large for modern homes and over the years I have been using it to build a variety of items. Probably Cuban mahogany and a beautiful stable wood. I have also used black cherry and walnut and if well aged and well dried they are superb woods. I would avoid real teak (if you can get it) as it is oily and very hard to glue - more suited for the decks of boats.

PS - I have a WTB listed for a 4 X 10 film holder and if any one has one they would like to sell please let me know.

[Drew Wiley]

The secret with teak is to scrub it with acetone just before using urethane glue, which has its own protocol, as do marine rpoxies. Huge true teak yachts are still being made and glued up on a production basis. Teak itself is easy to acquire if you know the secret - it flows toward money, BIG money. In other words, if you can afford the yacht, you can afford teak. Plenty of people around here routinely work with it. They're called boatyards. And there are two big plants making glues for marine hardwood applications. No big deal. But if you want good cured hardwood at a bargain, try church pews.

[Drew Wiley]

Well, I'll admit it isn't quite that simple. Oily tropical hardwoods can also require a different sanding protocol from ordinary woods, and ideally even different sanding discs and equipment, plus specialty sealers and finishes, none of which are likely to be encountered inland. I had the advantage of not only knowing the sources, but of being the source. Yet if it were me looking to build a camera, I'd probably choose a much easier material like cherry or black walnut. My Ebony 4x5 is actually made of true mahogany. They made them of actually ebony wood too at almost double the weight. I know someone who fabricated 200 solid ebony doors and windows for someone's barn and guest house.The main house itself is slowly going up now. The owner complained about having to live upstairs in the barn for awhile because it had only ten bedrooms and seven bathrooms. The downstairs was for his eight million dollar collection of racehorses. So if you need ebony, you know where to find it. Just pull some hinge pins on a dark night.

[Tin Can]

A question. Is teak better off treated with a coating? Or bare? I have a new camera with teak. It's coated with something. No idea what. Satin-like. Maybe Poly with steel wool.

Years ago I bought cheap teak garden benches from Sams. Made in Thailand. No finish or coating. No screws or metal. Glued dowels. They sat outside for 25 years in Chicago. The wood never seemed to age or deteriorate. Somebody busted them up. Then I tossed them. They could have gone another 1/4 century.

I prefer oiled or waxed wood.


The secret with teak is to scrub it with acetone just before using urethane glue, which has its own protocol, as do marine rpoxies. Huge true teak yachts are still being made and glued up on a production basis. Teak itself is easy to acquire if you know the secret - it flows toward money, BIG money. In other words, if you can afford the yacht, you can afford teak. Plenty of people around here routinely work with it. They're called boatyards. And there are two big plants making glues for marine hardwood applications. No big deal. But if you want good cured hardwood at a bargain, try church pews.

[Drew Wiley]

Randy. That ain't real teak. There are several pseudo-teak funiture mfg around here, one of them employing some of the dumbest workers around. One less factory (oily rags).

[Drew Wiley]

Finish choice is dictated by the look you want, whether you want to periodically refinish it or not, and whether you're dealing with an oily wood or not. Don't waste your time at home centers or paint stores. A true marine store is best. Old-school oil/wax finishes are hard to find. They cure slowly and are prone to spontaneous combustion, but do have a different look from synthetic finishes. I don't recommend polyurethanes - most are too brittle for outdoor use. Sacaficial layered coatings are very expensive. A good marine teak oil like Daly's must be frequently re-applied but easy to do. Forget the cheapo brands like Watco.

[el french]

Finish choice is dictated by the look you want, whether you want to periodically refinish it or not, and whether you're dealing with an oily wood or not. Don't waste your time at home centers or paint stores. A true marine store is best. Old-school oil/wax finishes are hard to find. They cure slowly and are prone to spontaneous combustion, but do have a different look from synthetic finishes. I don't recommend polyurethanes - most are too brittle for outdoor use. Sacaficial layered coatings are very expensive. A good marine teak oil like Daly's must be frequently re-applied but easy to do. Forget the cheapo brands like Watco.

That begs the question of which one is real teak oil? I suspect the answer is none of them :o

[Drew Wiley]

I could rattle off quite a few products, but I live on the SF Bay where there are plenty of marine stores. Good product ain't cheap. But a lot depends on where you live. Brands and even what can be legally shipped differs states by state. I already mentioned Daly's Teak Oil, but it's uncommon outside the NW. I personally use Cetol 1, but our current desmogified version of it here in CA requires UV cure in sunlight. I still have some of the good ole stuff.

[Drew Wiley]

I wouldn't even bother sealing cheap "teak" patio furniture. Just let it go bland gray and sand it a bit periodically to tame splinters. But if you want to sustain the beauty of a valuable tropical wood, my favorite option would be a sealer coat of Cetol 1 followed by three coats of Cetol Marine, with a refresher coat about every five years. But the latter product is around $80 per qt, and you obviously don't want much thickness build-up on the surface where a filmholder rests, or the plane of focus will be affected. My Phillips camera is sealed with marine penetrating epoxy, buffed after drying to a satin sheen. Epoxies yellow over time, and can go brittle with prolonged UV torture. But most of us unpack view cameras only when shooting. Good 2-part penetrating epoxies are made by Abatron, West Systems (West Marine, and by Smith Epoxy. These are all nasty and require good ventilation. After curing, maybe a week later, buff the finish with gray or green Scotch Brite.