I need FIX Hardner: ALUM?

[Tin Can]

I can't find my Steve Anchell Cookbook or Beyond Monochrome. I will sooner or later.

I want to add hardener to TF5. I Have Kodak QF with Kodak Hardner on the way. I don't want to wait.

I bought powdered Alum today at the grocer. Photographers Formulary also sells it in powder form. My can is labeled 'ALUM Powdered' "This colorless, odorless, crystalline powder is useful for dying fabrics". It was in the food spice section.

How much by weight to 1000 ml TF5 standard working solution of 1+3=4, should I try?

Has anyone used spice rack Alum as hardner?

I will use it on EFKE film and glass plates, both new and old.

[koraks]

Iirc, the potassium alum in the spice rack is much less effective as a hardener than the chrome alum I usually come across in ingredients lists. I have no experience with potassium alum, but it's something to keep in mind when mixing stuff; you'll likely need much more of the potassium salt than of the chrome salt if that's what's indicated in your formula.

Out of sheer curiosity: what do you need a hardener for? I've never come across a situation myself where I needed one with regular materials; only for gelatin sizing papers for alt processes.

[Tin Can]

Iirc, the potassium alum in the spice rack is much less effective as a hardener than the chrome alum I usually come across in ingredients lists. I have no experience with potassium alum, but it's something to keep in mind when mixing stuff; you'll likely need much more of the potassium salt than of the chrome salt if that's what's indicated in your formula.

Out of sheer curiosity: what do you need a hardener for? I've never come across a situation myself where I needed one with regular materials; only for gelatin sizing papers for alt processes.

EFKE film and glass plate dry emulsions.

[Steve Goldstein]

Randy, I suggest you ask this question over on Photrio, formerly APUG. Ron Mowrey, the developer of TF-5, is active there (but not here) and would certainly be the best person to provide an answer.

[Tin Can]

Perhaps.

I just read too much last night. Dentists have pages of data on X-Ray fixing and hardening.

Sprint says they have a system. Of course! http://sprintsystems.com/products/record-alum-hardening-converter/

[Pere Casals]

I can't find my Steve Anchell Cookbook

http://www.ssnpstudents.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Focal-Press-The-Darkroom-Cookbook.pdf

[Tin Can]

http://www.ssnpstudents.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Focal-Press-The-Darkroom-Cookbook.pdf

Thanks! Since I have purchased 2 versions I feel free to use a download.

Now I am waiting for water...seems a main broke.

Good thing I consider this a hobby.

Thanks again Pere!

[Barry Kirsten]

I've only ever used chrome alum as a hardener (and then not that often), but I believe formalin has also been used in the past. It may be less susceptible to pH than alums, and it's also worth keeping in mind that it's carcinogenic.

[jnantz]

i have heard you can put the alum hardener in any stage. you can put it in your dev. or have a separate bath, or put in in your fix.
i use sprint chemistry and they make it ez ...

[Tin Can]

Seems to me adding to developer makes good sense.

Now I need to find out how much.

I read somewhere too much and the risk is lack of flexibility which is not an issue with glass plate.


i have heard you can put the alum hardener in any stage. you can put it in your dev. or have a separate bath, or put in in your fix.
i use sprint chemistry and they make it ez ...

[Nodda Duma]

Adding hardener helps the plate emulsion survive higher temps without reticulation or frilling. Alternatively, you can lower your development temp to (no less than) 65F.

[Rick A]

Adding hardener to developer does make more sense, however using a pyro developer negates the need for it. Pyro developers have a tanning effect on emulsions similar to what chrome alum will accomplish. Shooting Efke and older Adox films was the reason I switched to PMK and P'cat. Also, never use acid stop with Efke, water stop only to avoid pinholes in the emulsion(as per Efke literature).You don't want to use acid stop with pyro developers any way as it reduces/removes stain.

[Tin Can]

For some years I have used only Rodinal and TF5 mixed with distilled water for film, with a distilled water stop. Gas Burst is used when the quantity of negs exceed my trays skill.

Tap wash at 68 F. All temps are controlled to 68 F by Hass valve with filters.

I will be using Sandy King Pyrocat HD when I am ready. https://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/PCat/pcat.html

My Alum experiments will continue. Initial results are encouraging.

[koraks]

You don't want to use acid stop with pyro developers any way as it reduces/removes stain.
I've never experienced this, although I very often use an acid stop. In fact, pyro stain is so persistent that it seems virtually impossible to remove at all without actually stripping the emulsion.

[Rick A]

I've never experienced this, although I very often use an acid stop. In fact, pyro stain is so persistent that it seems virtually impossible to remove at all without actually stripping the emulsion.

I am referring to info in the book of Pyro, also Efke also recommends no acid stop as it could cause pinholes in the emulsion. I have laso never had issues with scratching the emulsion using pyro developers. I did have an issue with pinholes when I first started using Efke, then read articles that espoused dropping acid stop, zero issues since..

[Steven Tribe]

Like others, I am having to learn about hardeners due to the sudden availability of dry plates.

I, apparently, bought the last stock bottle of Tetenal Hardener from Fotoimpex, Berlin. I assume this is alum based, but the only content information says aluminium sulphate - along with the eye/skin warning. I enclose the label data with how to use and dosage for various film/paper. Note that it mentions usage in stop baths and fixing - not development! It also warns against using in powder based fixers combined with the hardener.

I will try the hardener in "stop" bath.

I used to get pinholes in Foma, too, when using a dedicated stop bath!

[koraks]

I used to get pinholes in Foma, too, when using a dedicated stop bath!

I don't. I use a 2% acetic acid stop bath with foma 100, 200 and 400. The only pinholes I ever got with 200 were due to a manufacturing defect that foma admitted to me in email communication after I sent some samples to them. NB: these pinholes were not related to the use of a stop bath, as they also occurred with a plain water 'stop'.

Nevertheless, I can imagine how very delicate emulsions would be harmed by a stop bath. I can only speak for my personal experience, however, which does not include dry plates, just lots of (foma) film and pyro developer.

[Michael R]

Like others, I am having to learn about hardeners due to the sudden availability of dry plates.

I, apparently, bought the last stock bottle of Tetenal Hardener from Fotoimpex, Berlin. I assume this is alum based, but the only content information says aluminium sulphate - along with the eye/skin warning. I enclose the label data with how to use and dosage for various film/paper. Note that it mentions usage in stop baths and fixing - not development! It also warns against using in powder based fixers combined with the hardener.

I will try the hardener in "stop" bath.

I used to get pinholes in Foma, too, when using a dedicated stop bath!

The other ingredient in the Tetenal product is acetic acid. This is because aluminium sulfate requires an acidic environment in which to work as a hardener - which is why you add it to an acidic stop bath or acidic fixer and not to the developer.

For those really concerned about hardening, I think for delicate dry plate emulsions a better course of action might be to use a hardening pre-treatment (before development) using a different type of hardener.

[jnantz]

Seems to me adding to developer makes good sense.

Now I need to find out how much.

I read somewhere too much and the risk is lack of flexibility which is not an issue with glass plate.

i've never had trouble with emulsion i have coated myself until it went into the fixer **
some folks have a separate alum hardener bath between dev and fix or stop and fix &c
its 30cc/1L if you use the sprint stuff ( it can be bought right off their website )

its usually when it lifts from the plate and resettles / creases or just lifts completely off the plate
and goes down the drain ;)

[Tin Can]

I read that all rapid fixers use ammonium thiosulfate chemistry compared to normal fixer which is sodium thiosulfate. And that TF5 is NOT alkaline, but neutral per PE.

http://ehsrms.uaa.alaska.edu/CMS/Laboratory/MSDS/MSDS%20by%20Vendor/Kodak/Kodak%20Rapid%20Fixer%20Parts%20A%20&%20B.pdf

Does rapid-fixer smell? (https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/does-rapid-fixer-smell.47529/#post-691299)

Just some links to ponder.

[jnantz]

i use sprint speedfixer it doesn't smell at all.
i've tried tf5(or 4) it reeked so badly of ammonia ( or something else ) i put in
my waste haul bucket and had it hauled away .. never even used it.
haven't ever used anything but the sprint stuff .. except for random
times i have used hypo ... the stuff is so cheap at adorama i couldn't help myself !

[Robert Brazile]

I don't wish to discourage anybody from learning about hardener, but for what it's worth: I've been working with my own dry plates for more than a year now and have never had a problem with frilling, etc. I started with Kodak Professional Fixer, which I believe hardens, but have been using TF-4 with the last several batches with no issues. FWIW.

Robert

[Tin Can]

Update sorta, about hardner.

I have not given up looking into all sorts of things including this topic.

Seems many are not very forthcoming with existing knowledge. So be it. I had the same problem with Gas Burst tech. Now I know and use Gas Burst. My info on that is available.

I'll keep my secrets now too.

Don't call me a bad sport, perhaps it's really about liability.

[Richard Rau]

I suspect that copyright infringement has crossed the minds of most folks, thus the unwillingness to post a verbatim formula from the Cookbook.
Currently, it appears that Heico still makes an Aluminum chloride hardner (NH-5), available from Freestyle.
Also, Kodak Hardner for Rapid Fix is available as well.
https://www.freestylephoto.biz/category/12-Chemicals/Black-and-White-Chemicals?attr%5B%5D=30-337
https://www.freestylephoto.biz/1733013-Kodak-Rapid-Fixer-Part-B-Hardener-Concentrate-72-oz.

[Tin Can]

Thank you!