Fresh dry plates in a variety of sizes [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

Nodda Duma

27-Dec-2017, 23:39

For those of you who'd like to try dry plate photography but the process of making and coating your own emulsion is just too intimidating, I would like to announce that I have begun offering for sale newly-made 4"x5" dry plates, packed 10 plates to a box, that I prepare during my coating runs as extras above and beyond what I expect to use myself.

The plates are of the correct thickness (~0.050"), and the emulsion is of "normal" spectral response, with a typical sensitivity that I've tested to be about ISO 2 (you can shoot it at faster speeds, but I haven't explored that aspect much). As such, you can tray develop it under a safelight. The emulsion is virtually grainless, and has a very nice balance of tonality and contrast. Different developers give different results.. I've settled on the higher contrast of HC-110 Dil B but it still maintains a nice tonality. Developing by inspection also opens up a whole new variable to explore which is not often available when developing negatives. I think you'll enjoy experimenting with the plates.

I've spent several years perfecting the coating technique, and the plates have come out nice enough and consistent enough in quality that I can dare offer to share them with others, but keep in mind that these are hand-made, which provides a certain ... character ... to the final product. In most cases, however, it is a pleasing effect, and I have made some very nice enlargements which have been put on display in local galleries, public buildings, etc. Many of the prints that are seen in my etsy shop (see below) are worth looking at as examples of dry plate photographs I have taken.

I am selling these to keep my wife happy about being able to cover my photography hobby expenses, restock my darkroom's beer fridge, and share the fun of a limited-access alternative process to the wider large format photography community.

Since I prepare the plates in my spare time, availability is relatively limited for now. I have set up a shop in Etsy so that I can post available quantities. I encourage you to purchase boxes of plates through there: https://www.etsy.com/listing/581274765/newly-made-4x5-dry-plates-10-plates
There's a way to get notification when I update the quantities, but I must admit I'm not savvy enough to know how to do that. If the quantity there is greater than zero, then I have plates available. Plate holders are available online at various sites.

Sold in boxes of 10 for $35 + plus shipping (cheaper than Kodak!). I can ship internationally, just ask me.

I'm more than happy to entertain requests for other sizes... I make 4"x5" plates because that's what I use (as well as 5x7's). I cut the glass from 12"x12" sheets, so I can make plates that are anything up to that size (the cost will be different, of course).

Once you get the boxes in-hand, please contact me and ask questions if you have any as you are using them. I want you to enjoy them and be successful! Of course, as you test the plates and use them, I am hopeful that you will share your results and testing.

Thank you for the interest
-Jason

Tin Can

28-Dec-2017, 01:53

In!

Nodda Duma

28-Dec-2017, 07:37

Great! Thanks, Randy.

chassis

28-Dec-2017, 12:41

Tin Can

28-Dec-2017, 13:42

I think if they fit plate holders they will fit SS hangers. I sure will try that soon. Mine are shipped.

I have a Primo or Cycle 4X5 camera set with nice plate holders. Ball Bearing shutter is wonky, but not a problem.

Nodda Duma

28-Dec-2017, 13:47

Jason, congratulations on a new product. Questions: do the plates fit into a stainless film hanger, so that they could be processed in a hard rubber tank rather than a tray? What advice do you have on plate holders (brand name, things to be aware of, etc.)? Do plate holders fit into "normal" Graflock/international camera backs, or is a specific plate holder back needed?

Hi,

Thank you! My hope is that more people use and enjoy dry plates, they are a lot of fun for such a little-visited alternative process. And that I earn enough for all my the effort to keep my beer fridge stocked. [emoji4]. Or at least cover my material costs. It's all in fun.

About your questions...

Stainless film hangar: I typically tray develop the plates in the darkroom under the (0C filter or equivalent) safelight, so I can keep an eye on them and develop by inspection if I accidentally under or overexpose (which, thankfully, doesn't happen as often now as it used to). That said, the closest I have to hangars is this:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171228/dc622a1e873eb1964c2735ad3e053f29.jpg

Which they seem to fit just fine as you can see. I develop sheet film in an SP-445, so I just don't have sheet hangers and can't say.

The glass is 0.050" thick, so you can measure the inside width of the hanger with calipers and you'll know (please share your findings if you do). Of course, the hanger needs to be straight, so something like a yankee agitank won't work. In any case, I've always tray developed, since I wanted to see how the emulsion turns out while I was perfecting my coating technique. Have I mentioned that I prefer to tray develop the plates? [emoji4]

Plate holders: Any 4"x5" actual plate holder will work (take the film adapter out). Sometimes fitting the plate in will be tight, but I fit check the plates in a spare holder before packaging.

Here's how the old school holders I use fit in the Graflok back.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171228/a2564cc74f4d04bf7b4c2338d6364d42.jpg

It works great (the lighthouse pic in my etsy store was taken with this setup), but just doesn't stick out very far so you gotta grab the dark slides with your nails. I've learned to deal with it.

Be aware of the rib stop position when you're sourcing plate holders.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171228/960483a10cd9b552c56e38bc8d630082.jpg

Most have the rib stop in the standard location like this Seneca Century plate holder, but Rochester Optical Co (as one example I know of) doesn't, so just be aware of that when you're looking for a plate holder.

Also, for the Speed Graphic, I've measured the distance to the plate surface vs for film and found the difference to be very small..in fact much smaller than the variation in distance between lensboard to each corner of the ground glass! That was an eye-opener, and I spent the rest of that day aligning my Graflex. So you should expect the plate emulsion to be parfocal (or, more technically, within the practical Depth of Focus) with film emulsion.

Great questions, let me know if you have more. And, of course, I hope you try them out and report your results!

I'm always curious to know if other sizes are desired.

-Jason

Tin Can

28-Dec-2017, 13:53

5X7 will be next.

Lets me try the first batch. :)

Two23

28-Dec-2017, 16:57

Tin Can

28-Dec-2017, 17:34

The below makes sense if you read 223 signature in the post above.

German always looks and sounds so angry. So I let Google show me the joy.

"Celebrate, rejoice, rise up and praise these days,"

Then I look at the German and it all seems obvious! I guess these words are from Latin, I should have noticed that. I couldn't figure out English until I studied Latin for 2 years.

A favorite song of mine, mit organ.

I've been wanting to try wet plate for a long time, but the logistics of it are daunting! I'm after that glass plate look--blue sensitive and some halo. I'm assuming dry plate will give me that. I do have a couple of questions. First, I assume that with dry plate I can load the holders, take them out in the field & shoot, and return home to develop? How long do I have to develop once they've been exposed? second, it's cold (-25F) this time of year where I live. I'm thinking that as long as I don't allow the plates to freeze I should be OK? Finally, I've never developed any film in several decades. Do you have a website or link so I can see what I need and what the process is? I have a nice collection of antebellum lenses I'd love to try some plates with! ISO 2 will actually be a help here.

Kent in SD

Nodda Duma

28-Dec-2017, 17:51

I've been wanting to try wet plate for a long time, but the logistics of it are daunting! I'm after that glass plate look--blue sensitive and some halo. I'm assuming dry plate will give me that. I do have a couple of questions. First, I assume that with dry plate I can load the holders, take them out in the field & shoot, and return home to develop? How long do I have to develop once they've been exposed? second, it's cold (-25F) this time of year where I live. I'm thinking that as long as I don't allow the plates to freeze I should be OK? Finally, I've never developed any film in several decades. Do you have a website or link so I can see what I need and what the process is? I have a nice collection of antebellum lenses I'd love to try some plates with! ISO 2 will actually be a help here.

Kent in SD

Hi Kent,

Thanks for the interest.

For taking pictures, think of the plates as being similar to film. You can go take pictures and then be lazy like I am and wait weeks before developing the plates. This was the major improvement over wet plate photography (where you had to take the darkroom with you) and led to a surge in popularity of the craft.

Recommended developing times and developer is printed on the box, although feel free to experiment. I treat the development process pretty much exactly like developing a print in the darkroom. You can use the safelight. Dev, stop (I suggest water stop), hardening fixer (I use kodak rapid hardening fixer), rinse, hypo wash, final rinse. Then, place somewhere to dry without hurting the emulsion. The only caveat is that agitation should be very gentle and carefully maintain same temperature throughout.

Two23

28-Dec-2017, 17:55

"Celebrate, rejoice, rise up and praise these days,"

Then I look at the German and it all seems obvious! I guess these words are from Latin, I should have noticed that. I couldn't figure out English until I studied Latin for 2 years.

A favorite song of mine, mit organ.

It's the opening line from Bach's "Christmas Oratorio." It's my favorite Christmas piece. The libretto to the opening part of the first cantata:

Cantata for the First Day of Christmas
(Weihnachts-Oratorium I)

1. Chor
Jauchzet, frohlocket, auf, preiset die Tage,
Rühmet, was heute der Höchste getan!
Lasset das Zagen, verbannet die Klage,
Stimmet voll Jauchzen und Fröhlichkeit an!
Dienet dem Höchsten mit herrlichen Chören,
Laßt uns den Namen des Herrschers verehren!

1. Chorus
Celebrate, rejoice, rise up and praise these days,
glorify what the Highest has done today!
Abandon despair, banish laments,
sound forth full of delight and happiness!
Serve the Highest with glorious choruses,
let us honor the name of the Supreme Ruler!

My favorite performance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98UjjwzJBFE

It's a remarkable piece. It caps what has been a remarkable year for me, considering I very narrowly escaped death last February. Auf, preiset die Tage!
So anyway, I don't want to put off doing things I've always wanted to do, such as shooting plate photography.

Kent in SD

Tin Can

28-Dec-2017, 18:22

Listening now.

Classical music and LF are like old Cadillacs and Stout beer. All very enjoyable.

Glad you survived. I had a rough summer. And strive

Jim Andrada

28-Dec-2017, 21:17

I ordered a couple of boxes. Looking forward to playing with them. 5 X 7 would be nice as well.

Oren Grad

28-Dec-2017, 21:42

I'm more than happy to entertain requests for other sizes...

Whole Plate, if you can do it without breaking the bank.

I still have the Eastman plate holders with film sheaths that got me started in WP long ago. It would be delicious, after all these years, to take the film sheaths out and use those holders as originally intended.

Two23

28-Dec-2017, 21:47

Another question. Looks like you deliver by mail. That means anything you send me will sit in my mailbox until I get home. It's forecasted to not get above zero (F) for many days where I live. Will the subzero temps harm the plates? Thinking about it more, your package will likely sit in an unheated truck for several days as it makes its way west.

Kent in SD

Nodda Duma

29-Dec-2017, 04:09

Jim, thank you! Saw your order and I'll get them out asap. I do have 5x7 plates. I have a 5x7 plate camera, and the results are great. The only thing keeping me from offering 5x7 is lack of boxes, to be honest. The 5x7 plates that I've made so far are either in plate holders or the one old Kodak plate box that I do have. Funnily enough, during my last coating run I had a stack of 5x7 glass sitting there taunting me. I made four plates just for the principal of it, but only had room to store 2 of them. So I had to keep the two best and the other two were sacrificed to daylight. I brought them out to show my wife what basic emulsion looks like when unexposed (it's a pale yellow color). She wasn't as excited as we often hope our wives are about our hobbies, of course.. Anyways, I am working on sourcing boxes, and have some incoming for 5x7's. I'm doing the same for more 4x5 boxes but those are 2-3 weeks out.

Oren, I think that'd be awesome. I just finished making contact prints from whole plates that are in Brookline Historical Society's collection (my town). They were taken by an amateur photographer who picked up the hobby when she was in her 20s (~early 1890s), and she continued to take pictures for the rest of her life around the local area. She used a whole plate camera (I don't know what type it was). The set I made contact prints from dated to about 1900-1920. The prints came out great, and it was just awesome to think the process spanned a century. I posted some examples in the media section of photrio.org (old APUG). The prints are for our town's upcoming 250th anniversary..they will be scanned in and used in our update to Brookline's history chronicle (last updated in 1919). Anyways, I'll run the numbers for whole plate and PM you.

Kent:

Last winter my plate camera and plates would sit in my truck all day at work while the temperatures would drop to -5F (worst case that I saw, this was an intentional test), and they were just fine. This summer they'd do the same up to 100F+ measured in the cabin and were fine. But your temps are uncharted territory which I am eager to test for. Would you like to be a guinea pig? I would like to send you a couple of sample plates exactly how I would send normally. You can then use them as you would a normal order, and then develop them or send them back to me and I will develop them and we will see how they look.

My theory is that they will be fine like regular film would be under those temperatures (Mees writes in his book that the photon conversion process is independent of temperature). Historically, I know that plate cameras and plates were used in all types of weather. For example, they are known to be taken on at least some of the late 19th and early 20th C. polar expeditions. The photographs from Captain Scott's south pole expedition is one example. Ponting used plates. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Ponting So there's historical precedent that indicates plates in general will be fine at temperatures even below what you see, and it's just a question of verifying that fact. I am an optical engineer by profession, and as an engineer I naturally insist on verifying designs and theories with field testing. This would be a field test, with the hypothesis that they will turn out ok (as long as you do your part to expose properly!). The only thing I would advise is to let the package of plates come to room before opening the box in the darkroom to avoid condensation on the emulsion....just like you would for bringing film out of freezer storage.

How's that sound? I'd just need an address to send them to.

Tin Can

29-Dec-2017, 07:12

May as well ask/dream for 1/4 plate as I have those holders and camera.

What I don't have is 10X10" holders or camera but do have a 10X10" Stainless Steel hangerless (meaning built in slots) gas burst tank. Medical or Scientific usage?

I could shoot 10X10" with my Levy copy camera, but let's not go there yet!

I assume you have a 'real' job. :)

Greg

29-Dec-2017, 07:19

Am also interested in Whole Plate size
Greg

Nodda Duma

29-Dec-2017, 08:38

May as well ask/dream for 1/4 plate as I have those holders and camera.

I can make any size plates up to 12"x12", it's just a matter of calculating pricing based on material costs. I will calculate cost and let you know.

I assume you have a 'real' job. :)

I do. I'm a lens designer, actually, with an engineering background. I have designed optics that are fielded or being fielded from the deep ocean to outer space and everywhere between. See my post on a lens design in the DIY sub-forum.

Currently I'm filling a role as director of engineering at a small company working in cutting edge technology.

So my engineering background and practical experience in making things for the real world has come in handy in figuring out the best way to make these plates. It provides a technical rigor and consistency for quality which has helped me as I perfected the techniques required.

Cheers,
Jason

Nodda Duma

29-Dec-2017, 08:39

Am also interested in Whole Plate size
Greg

Got your PM. I replied. Thank you for the interest!

Jason

Pere Casals

29-Dec-2017, 08:47

This is great news !

One question, do you include a green sensitizer (erythrosin like) to make it ortho, or is it color blind ?

Two23

29-Dec-2017, 09:01

Last winter my plate camera and plates would sit in my truck all day at work while the temperatures would drop to -5F (worst case that I saw, this was an intentional test), and they were just fine. This summer they'd do the same up to 100F+ measured in the cabin and were fine. But your temps are uncharted territory which I am eager to test for. Would you like to be a guinea pig? I would like to send you a couple of sample plates exactly how I would send normally. You can then use them as you would a normal order, and then develop them or send them back to me and I will develop them and we will see how they look.

My theory is that they will be fine like regular film would be under those temperatures (Mees writes in his book that the photon conversion process is independent of temperature). Historically, I know that plate cameras and plates were used in all types of weather. For example, they are known to be taken on at least some of the late 19th and early 20th C. polar expeditions. The photographs from Captain Scott's south pole expedition is one example.

Good enough for me! I forgot about use on polar expeditions until I watched the NG show on TV last night. I ordered a box on ebay. I have about a dozen pre-Civil War lenses and a few from 1865-1880 that I've always wanted to do wet plate with. I might still try wet plate this summer during a Civil War reenactment, but in the meantime I just want to jump in and start with dry plates. I would be sad if that turned out to be something I never got around to doing! (You never know....) All of my heroes shot dry plate--F.J. Haynes in Fargo, W.H. Jackson in Omaha, Solomon Butcher down in Nebraska, A.J. Russell in Omaha--on and on. If 4x5 works out, I will be interested in 5x7 plates as well. I have a dandy 1925 Gundlach Korona and several pre-Civil War lenses that work great on it!

Also need a link telling what equipment/supplies I need to process, and how to do it.

Kent in SD

locutus

29-Dec-2017, 09:09

I'm in Finland (Close enough to the arctic i suppose :D ), i'll try to shoot atleast 2 plates in the winter weather here. (once the actual winter starts....it seems to be lame)

bob carnie

29-Dec-2017, 09:21

Very good idea and I will be wanting to try this in the future, good luck with this, I am following this thread to see some printed results.

Bob

Nodda Duma

29-Dec-2017, 09:23

This is great news !

One question, do you include a green sensitizer (erythrosin like) to make it ortho, or is it color blind ?

The current batch of emulsion (Batch #004) that I'm making plates from is color blind. I call them "normal" sensitivity, borrowing from the nomenclature of the late 1800s. I really like the look..I think that's part of the fun.

However, like any good engineer, I have a "development plan", and that includes orthochromatic sensitization sometime in the future. It also includes increasing the inherent sensitivity, and I'm currently mapping out the best approach to tackling those two related goals within my limited amount of time. I'm methodical in my development approach, which takes longer but will result in a better end product.

Funny enough, first on my list is sourcing boxes! Lol. Offering plates for sale so others can enjoy them sort of spontaneously materialized a couple weeks ago, and there were more people interested than I expected. So I'm running short of the used sheet film boxes I had. But I'm lining up a source and will need to pay for those pretty soon so I'm ok on that front.

I have been identifying sources of erythrosin (and other sensitizers) and doing my research. Assuming I continue to sell plates, that will help to cover costs for that type of development.

Anyways, lots of fun. I encourage you to try them out! If you need a different size, let me know.

-Jason

Nodda Duma

29-Dec-2017, 09:27

Thanks everyone for all the interest. I am very excited about this interest and am honestly happy to be sharing with others.

Looking forward to the reviews, and as I've mentioned before, please ask lots of questions as you use them. I want you to be successful!

Very good idea and I will be wanting to try this in the future, good luck with this, I am following this thread to see some printed results.

Bob

Yes, I'm looking forward to results as well. I can only print up to 16x20, and there are definitely better photographers out there than I am. At only 4x enlargment, the prints are still tack-sharp. I'd love to see the results from better photographers who can make larger prints.

-----

Kent, here are the instructions that I print on the box:

OPEN ONLY UNDER SAFELIGHT!
Plates are packed emulsion-side up.
Emulsion side is slightly hazy when viewing reflection of safelight.
Uncoated glass side will not be hazy.
Load emulsion-side up into plate holder.
Expose at ISO 2
Tray Develop under safelight 5 minutes in HC-110 Dil B or equivalent.
- 30 second agitation at start
- 15 second agitation every 1 min after.
Indicator stop bath or water Stop 30 seconds.
Fix in Rapid Hardening Fixer, constant gentle agitation
- Fix double clear time,
- Fix longer if needed to remove yellow stain.
30 second water bath rinse
Hypo wash 4 minutes if desired
Gentle agitation rinse in room temperature water
- 20 minutes if hypo washed
- 40 minutes if not hypo washed.
The non-emulsion “glass side” will have excess emulsion remaining from the hand-coating process. After developing, this excess emulsion can be removed with cloth dampened with dilute bleach, or Clorox disinfecting wipes or equivalent.
CAUTION: Edges of glass are sharp!

Corran

29-Dec-2017, 10:35

Wow, just saw this! I am very happy to see this...I have a couple of projects in mind that I want to use wet plates but due to issues with getting a friend of mine to actually help me it hasn't materialized...dry plates were my backup plan but I hadn't gotten around to buying all the materials and such to coat them.

I see there is one box left...I'll buy a couple of boxes once you restock to save on shipping.

I also am interested in whole plate size as I already have a holder for my 8x10 at that size. Very interested to know what the price will be for those. Also, I am wondering if the emulsion might eventually be something you could offer as a stand-alone product, if that is something that would be doable for home-coating plates. I know there are some liquid emulsions out there already but if you have a competitive price, obviously that'd be a great alternative!

Pere Casals

29-Dec-2017, 11:21

I have been identifying sources of erythrosin (and other sensitizers) and doing my research.
-Jason

Ortho sentitization with erythrosin is amazingly straight: http://www.thelightfarm.com/cgi-bin/htmlgen.py?content=18Jan2012

You can get it at ebay for few bucks, and it is a safe substance as it's food grade. (other sensitizers are not as safe)

One important thing Mowrey told is that it should be added to the emulsion while doing the addition, if it is done later if has half the final effect. So if you are doing nice plates yet then just by adding some drops of E at the beginning of the addition you can offer also Ortho flavor, nice for male portraiture. When you wash the emulsion the sensitization it is not lost, because the sensitizer Molecules that are effective are tied to the silver halide and are not washed out.

locutus

29-Dec-2017, 12:09

OPEN ONLY UNDER SAFELIGHT!

Do you have any directions for which safelights are fine for your emulsion?

Nodda Duma

29-Dec-2017, 13:20

Do you have any directions for which safelights are fine for your emulsion?

Whatever you normally use in your darkroom for developing prints is fine. My darkroom has the classic 15W Kodak safelight with 0C filter.

-Jason

Pere Casals

29-Dec-2017, 13:53

Do you have any directions for which safelights are fine for your emulsion?

I has to be !

Let me say why, as a Dry Plate practitioner and Jason's protective customer...

When making emulsions the challenge is to make it sensible to green and red. Silver halide crystalls are sensible to blue and UV, very specific sensitizers have to be added to make it sensible to red. In fact those added sensitizers (particular aniline dyes for example) capture the photons and deliver the energy to the attached silver crystals, this is the way it works, as the crystals are not sensible to green and red, as only Blue an UV have energy enough to trigger a change in the silver halide crystal. So if maufacturer knows very well it...

locutus

29-Dec-2017, 14:34

Whatever you normally use in your darkroom for developing prints is fine. My darkroom has the classic 15W Kodak safelight with 0C filter.

-Jason

Thanks!

I kinda guessed any Orange/Red darkroom light would be okay but i thought to double check first.

Two23

29-Dec-2017, 17:53

Whatever you normally use in your darkroom for developing prints is fine. My darkroom has the classic 15W Kodak safelight with 0C filter.

-Jason

That's just the thing--I have no darkroom. I load sheet film in my bathroom at night, which works well. I'll do the same with the plates. If I really get into this (a possibility,) I do have the perfect space in my basement that would make a great little dark room.

Now another question. How long do I have to process plates once exposed? I assume it doesn't have to be done immediately like wet plate.

Kent in SD

Nodda Duma

29-Dec-2017, 17:56

Kent as far as waiting to develop, it's pretty much like film.

I've shot plates and have waited months to develop. They came out fine.

B.S.Kumar

29-Dec-2017, 18:04

Jason,

I have a few plate holders, and will probably order a box or two soon. Have you thought of clipping the right corner, so that the emulsion side is identified, like notches on film?

Kumar

B.S.Kumar

29-Dec-2017, 18:21

Some of us load film in a changing bag or tent or on location, and it would help identify the emulsion side easily, no?

Kumar

Nodda Duma

29-Dec-2017, 18:23

Hi Kumar,

That's great! Thank you for the interest. I'm going to be making more tonight, so the quantities should update tomorrow or the next. Last batch of '17!

It's a fair idea that I've considered before but decided against. It's sort of solving a problem that doesn't exist for normal or ortho plates, and the extra steps would just add more time to the process of hand-cutting the glass and ensuring proper orientation when pouring emulsion.

As long as you can view the plates under a safelight, you can tell which side is the emulsion side. The emulsion has a slight haze visible when viewing the reflection of the safelight. The glass side looks like, well, shiny glass (with the streaks and spots from residual emulsion that made its way to the back of the plate).

The plates are packed emulsion side up, so when you take off both lids and see the plates, the emulsion is on top.

Cheers,
Jason

Robert Brazile

29-Dec-2017, 19:25

It's easy enough to identify under safe light. I haven't had any situations where I needed to identify the emulsion side of a plate in the field, but I suspect you could do it by feel; the glass side and the emulsion side feel slightly different.

Also, to those who were asking: my own fit in stainless steel holders for washing, etc., and I imagine Jason's do as well. That's how the finished plate washing (after development) is done for the workshops at GEM anyway...

Robert

Hugo Zhang

29-Dec-2017, 20:30

Jason,

Chamonix wet plate holders are made to take plates of their film sizes which are slightly smaller than real 4x5, 5x7 or 6.5 x 8.5 inches. Is this going to be a problem for your dry plates? Our wet plate holder can take plates up to 3 mm in thickness.

Thanks.
Hugo

Nodda Duma

29-Dec-2017, 21:23

Hi Hugo,

It would be an issue as I cut them now, but I could adjust going forward. Or make Chamonix-specific plates. I would need to know the exact dimensions with tolerances. PM me and I can provide contact info to discuss further.

-Jason

Hugo Zhang

29-Dec-2017, 22:00

Jason,

The following are the openings of our wet plate holders. Your plates should be smaller in order to fit our holders. About 1-1.5mm on each side.

045---127mm x 100.5mm
057---177.5mm x 126.5mm
WP----215.8mm x 166mm
810---253.3mm x 203.2mm

Thanks.
Hugo

Nodda Duma

31-Dec-2017, 07:54

I developed some plates last night. The truck is from batch #003 (the first round of plates I sold is from this batch). That's my town (Brookline, NH) Fire Department Engine No. 1, a 1919 purpose-built fire truck on a Ford Model T chassis. The Fire Department bought it with money from fundraisers like dances and such at the time, and they've owned it ever since. I took this in preparation for our upcoming 250th anniversary. I didn't do anything except scan it in.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/attachments/fire-truck-1919-jpg.192682/

This one is a crop of the photo above to a size equivalent to a 35mm frame. This gives you an idea of what the grain looks like. Ignore the dust from the scan.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/attachments/bell-detail-jpg.192683/

Nodda Duma

31-Dec-2017, 08:13

Here is a photo I took yesterday. I share it because I didn't want to exclusively show you "the best of the best". This is sort of in the category of "towards the middly-bottom" as far as plate quality goes. So (along with the other examples I've referenced) you get to see the range of quality in these hand-coated plates.

It is from batch #004 (the latest round of plates). This was a reject plate, because as a test I back-filled a hole in the emulsion at bottom center which you can see as a lighter blob-area due to the emulsion being thicker. The light curved artifact on the right-hand side is due to the dark slide I used having a crack in it.

Ignoring those, the photo shows what you could expect of frilling at the edges where the emulsion can start lifting from the glass. So when you go to compose a shot, you might want to take that into account. It can be a cool effect, but you can also crop it out of course.

173211

and a crop equivalent to 35mm so you can get a feel for the grain (this is tray developed in HC-110 Dil B, 5 minutes at 68F). You can see my poor attempt at cleaning the back of the glass.

173215

Going forward my quality will inevitably improve, but these two shots and the other examples I've shared sort of give you a snapshot of where I am today. Each batch, some aspect gets better. Anyways, lots of fun.

Pere Casals

31-Dec-2017, 08:24

Congratulations !

It looks extraordinary !!!

Tin Can

31-Dec-2017, 08:25

Impressive plate and good subject.

What was your exposure parameter?

addendum, for each plate shown

Nodda Duma

31-Dec-2017, 08:53

So I've gotten used to thinking in terms of Exposure Values (EV), so you'll have to bear with me if you're not familiar with how EV's work.

For the truck, EV reading on the ground was 10 and on the wall it was 14. This worked out to 8s at f/22 to properly place the truck in the mid-tones at ISO 2. I don't really trust direct readings off of bright red paint since the emulsion doesn't see red. I think it was reading EV 13 on the fender. I bracketed 5s and 10s just to be careful (there wouldn't be an opportunity to do-over), but it turns out my 8s estimate nailed the exposure.

For the lake scene, the EV reading was 14 which at ISO 2 calls for 1s exposure at f/16. So the snow and sky aren't blown out like they should be for plates. It was cold out there and I was in a hurry. If my brain had been working right I would have aimed to put EV 12 in the mid-tones at ISO 2 and exposed for 2s or maybe 4s. Ah well.

Tin Can

31-Dec-2017, 09:04

Thanks! Well done!

I have always thought EV was an unnecessary added complication foisted on us as a simplification.:)

I do see it's value on linked speed/aperture shutters for a few situations.

Nodda Duma

31-Dec-2017, 09:58

Thanks.

EV was really important when I was making batches that rated ISO 0.25 or 0.5, which is so low that my meter would not support.

I created an exposure vs f/# spreadsheet from the equation which converts EV(100) values to other ISO ratings, in this case EV(0.25) or EV(0.5). Printing out the spreadsheet table and sticking it in my notebook that I carry with me, I could simply meter the EV(100) off the scene and then read off my required exposure without having to buy some God-awfully expensive meter that supports that low of an ISO.

It was the simplest way to take the guess work out of estimating exposure for plates.

My meter supports ISO 2 just fine, so it's not as important now. However, I did gain the side benefit of being able to estimate exposure in my head just by gauging the scene brightness.

Tin Can

31-Dec-2017, 10:13

I can see the value of a 'cheat sheet'. :)

I will make one and lose it. All paper is lost by me.

I meter on 100 iso and use my fingers to count stops I need to compensate. Usually works...

Corran

31-Dec-2017, 10:28

The problem with EV is that some people used "fixed" EV, always in reference to ISO 100, or "movable" EV, adjusted to the ISO in use. Various meters do one or the other - the Pentax spotmeters use a "fixed" EV, while I think one of my old Sekonics adjust it based on the ISO setting. This is kind of like fixed or movable 'do' when using solfège (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solfège) in music.

Anyway...can't wait to get the plates I ordered :).

Nodda Duma

31-Dec-2017, 10:34

Exactly, Corran, which is why I specified EV(100), the standard measurement and what my meter reports. My spreadsheet converts to EV(0.5) or EV(0.25), and gives the correct exposures for those values.

Can't wait to hear the reports!

Corran

31-Dec-2017, 10:50

I am glad to see examples and explanations. ISO 2 isn't that bad...better than the Efke IR film with a filter on anyway! I might have to take a lunch break while shooting one of the plates in some of the dark woods I find myself in though :).

What kind of reciprocity issues do plates like this generally have?

Nodda Duma

31-Dec-2017, 11:16

Good question re: reciprocity. I've asked that question myself and on my to-do list is to figure out how to test reciprocity.

In the meantime, from having used them, exposures up to ~45 or more are fine...of course that takes advantage of the forgiving nature of B&W. Beyond that they tend to start looking really thin and I usually swag it with 50% extra exposure time. So I want to characterize reciprocity.

Corran

31-Dec-2017, 11:34

Not bad! 45s at ISO 2 is about the same as 1 second on my normal films - so that gives me some idea of whether or not reciprocity will be a problem in different situations.

Randy

1-Jan-2018, 08:41

I just got the last one - really looking forward to trying this out. I have been considering attempting wet plate, and probably will at some future point, but this looks interesting.
One quick question - I am wondering - if exposed and developed "properly" - if one might be able to achieve the "look" of ambrotype with dry plates...?

Nodda Duma

1-Jan-2018, 10:17

Thanks for the support, Randy. That is, literally, the last box. I have no more 4x5 boxes to pack plates in. :( However, I've just about finalized an order for new boxes which should ship to me in about 3 weeks. Until then, I have to figure out an alternative way to pack them.

I must admit I panicked because that box was in a different stack in my fridge and I couldn't find it at first. But you are good to go. I just packed it up and will drop it off at the post office tomorrow.

Another update. I used the last of the current batch of emulsion (batch 004) coating a few Whole-Plates, Quarter-Plates, and 5x7's. They are gorgeous. I think I figured out a way to pack them up at least for now just so I can get them into the hands of folks to try out, and just need to set up the listing in Etsy. The whole plates are cut to exactly 6.5 x 8.5, 5x7's the same, quarter plates are 3 1/4 x 4 1/4. I also coated some "sixth-plate" sized 2 1/2 x 3 1/2, 35mm frame size (which I'm playing with in my Nikon), and some "ninth plate" (2 x 2 1/2) size. I made the small ones because I got a new glass cutter and was playing around with it <grin>.

In addition, I revamped my subbing layer because I wanted to improve the frilling. It's not bad now, but I'm always trying to improve and this is one of the things on my list.

Here's what I have available in non-4x5 sizes that I'll put up on Etsy later. I'm offering in packs of 5 this time just so I can divvy them out to more folks. If they become a regular offering, I'd be interested in hearing your suggestions on how many to sell per box:

2 packs of 5-count Whole-Plates
1 pack of 5-count Quarter-Plates
2 packs of 5-count 5x7

If you're interested in the smaller stuff, just ask (I didn't count).

Also prepared the next batch (005) of emulsion.

-Jason

Pere Casals

1-Jan-2018, 10:54

...I'd be interested in hearing your suggestions on how many to sell per box...

This is IMHO... as you are (for the moment...) in artisan level production a value you can offer is flexibility, so offering boxes with an standard number of plates is good, but it would also be good if you can also ship any number of plates. Perhaps somebody would order 3 to learn if they like it, or somebody my want 14 because it is what fills a budged... this also would allow you to understand the box size people like, for standard boxes. Offering flexibility is a value that a big manufacturer may not be able to deliver, but in your case it is a chance to show customer care, just my view, I can be wrong...

Two23

1-Jan-2018, 13:04

I think I have a temporary solution. I (and probably most of us) have spare boxes lying about. I could mail you an empty for you to load, and then you just ship it back after I pay.

Now on to another thought. The plates are ISO 2. Using "Sunny 16," that gives me an exposure with my f3.5 Petzvals as "f16--f11--f8--f5.6--f4" or roughly x4 stops. Now, one over the film speed equals 1/2 second exposure with f16. SO, four stops up from 1/2 = 1/2--1/4--1/8--1/15--1/30s. So in sunny daylight my exposure will work out to be ISO 2, f3.5, 1/30s, correct? Might have to add one stop (1/60s) because the ground is all snow covered here.

Kent in SD

Corran

1-Jan-2018, 13:58

I had probably 20-30 4x5 boxes that I threw away when I moved, darn.

Personally I think 5 to a box for the larger plates sounds fine.

Robert Brazile

2-Jan-2018, 12:05

A quick comment on the "can you get similar aesthetic to wet plate?" question. My answer, based on my own plates, would be "yes and no".

Similar:

1) Artifacts: these come mostly from the initial pouring of the plate. Any artifacts would largely be "baked in" by Jason when he pours your plate. As he is getting better and better at this, it's likely you will see fewer and fewer pouring artifacts. Some artifacts are possible from development methods (frilling, etc., largely from temperature differentials) but to be honest I haven't seen many of these with the slightest bit of care in development. Of course you could try to get these intentionally, but as that's not my goal, I can't offer any advice for that.

2) Color-blindness: as these aren't color-sensitized, you're getting a UV- and blue-sensitive emulsion, more or less what wet plate produces.

Dissimilar:

1) The "grain" on wet plate collodion is different, as the silver crystals (as I understand it) are much finer and closer to the surface of the emulsion. So the same scene, shot on both wet plate collodion and dry plate gelatin emulsion, will be subtly, or perhaps not-so-subtly different because of the physical structure of the image.

2) The reflective characteristics of a tintype/ambrotype/what have you are different from a dry plate printed out. That having been said, there are many alternative methods of printing, including onto metal, and I'm sure you can get fairly close.

One other thought: because of the band of spectrum the basic emulsion is sensitive to is so far up in the blue and higher end, the speed of the plates is affected considerably by the quality of the light. The plates will be noticeably faster under direct sunlight than, say, most artificial lights or even indirect sunlight. So be prepared for that if you decide an outing at -15F is looking less attractive than some time playing inside with studio lights. Don't Ask Me How I kNow This (DAMHINT).

I encourage everybody to take advantage of Jason's cottage industry and try them out! Easy enough to do, and then you'll know. And who knows, you may get hooked enough to try making them yourself...

Robert

Two23

2-Jan-2018, 16:45

So be prepared for that if you decide an outing at -15F is looking less attractive than some time playing inside with studio lights. Don't Ask Me How I kNow This (DAMHINT).

I love the cold! If I didn't, I'd live somewhere else. I was out hunting pheasants yesterday at 26F below for hours. I am aware that dry plate probably isn't my best choice for shooting the interiors of abandoned buildings.

Kent in SD

Nodda Duma

2-Jan-2018, 18:01

If you can hold your camera still, you can expose for 45s without reciprocity (my experience). Above that, I usually added 25-50% additional time to the exposure up to maybe 2 minutes (I need to characterize reciprocity, but this rule of thumb seems to work well). So you could shoot the interiors of abandoned buildings. ;)

cowanw

2-Jan-2018, 19:53

One other thought: because of the band of spectrum the basic emulsion is sensitive to is so far up in the blue and higher end, the speed of the plates is affected considerably by the quality of the light. The plates will be noticeably faster under direct sunlight than, say, most artificial lights or even indirect sunlight. So be prepared for that if you decide an outing at -15F is looking less attractive than some time playing inside with studio lights. Don't Ask Me How I kNow This (DAMHINT).Robert

Which reminds me of Tina Modotti complaining that Berlin's light was not actinic compared to Mexico!

Nodda Duma

2-Jan-2018, 21:06

Quick update: making next batch of emulsion. Glass is coming in, and I just secured a supply of new boxes! Lol. They will arrive in ~3 weeks. Never been so excited about boxes.

Robert Brazile

3-Jan-2018, 06:32

Which reminds me of Tina Modotti complaining that Berlin's light was not actinic compared to Mexico!

Exactly, and stated much more succinctly! I don't want to suggest that you can't do the inside work, just warning people about it so they take it into consideration. My first plates were extremely slow (maaaaybe ISO .4) and, while they worked reasonably well outside, inside was a struggle. Consider that not only did the less actinic light take much longer to register, reciprocity kicked in and I was finding myself with very long exposures to get reasonable density.

My newer plates are more like ISO 3 (probably pretty close to Jason's) and are a lot easier to use indoors, plus I know to account for it. And I have the means to make them faster, just working up to it. Fun to experiment with!

Robert

Tin Can

3-Jan-2018, 07:22

Got my J Lane Dry Plates with instructions on the outside of the box!

I will be taking my time.

locutus

3-Jan-2018, 08:29

my plates arrived all the way here in Finland! Hurray!

Tin Can

3-Jan-2018, 08:31

my plates arrived all the way here in Finland! Hurray!

Wow! Very quick.

Nodda Duma

3-Jan-2018, 10:22

Awesome! I am so excited that new folks are being introduced to the world of dry plate.

Let me know how it goes. I'm particularly interested in the fit of the plates in the holders. In fact, would love it if you guys could measure the opening of your holders and report that back. Antique holders should be ~4.1" wide. I don't expect any issues with those (even being hand-cut), but I learned from one fella that the plates don't fit his Linhof holders. Upon taking measurements, he discovered the opening was 3.99" wide ... sized for film!

Anyways.. I'd like to hear about any issues you run across. As an engineer and a realist, I fully expect teething troubles even though I'm pretty confident in their quality...so I want the opportunity to address problems as they come up.

Oh, and agitate very gently during development / fixing and maintain constant temperature throughout the process. Wash in very slowly flowing or cycled water. This will minimize frilling.

Cheers,
Jason

Corran

3-Jan-2018, 10:52

Uh oh, I have Linhof holders...will let you know.

Two23

3-Jan-2018, 18:00

Nodda Duma

3-Jan-2018, 19:36

I just bought some Graflex 4x5 plate holders (Graphic Plate Type II), and using my calipers they show as 4.04 in., or 102.7mm. Opening length is 4.70. Also just called Blue Moon in Portland, and they will process these for $5.25 each. I might let them do my first ones rather than me try to set up a way to process myself from scratch. Not sure how I can keep water a constant temperature from my bathroom sink faucet. Just received the plates today!

Kent in SD

Funny... I've been in contact w/ Sarah at Blue Moon about getting their spare boxes. She has scraped together 8 empties for me so far....seems like they just tossed a bunch. They are good people.

The plates should fit those holders just fine.

Nodda Duma

4-Jan-2018, 00:01

I wish I could change the title of this thread, so that I can announce possible other standard-offering size plates besides 4x5.

One of the standard sizes that I'm contemplating is Quarter plate, or 3.25" x 4.25". I made some earlier this evening to fulfill a request, and they came out absolutely beautiful. I wish I could have taken a picture of the finished plates to share, but of course that would have ruined them. At least I can show you the box. This is the prototype box for Quarter plate, as well as future 5x7s and some others. There are, in fact, 10 plates in there. But they have been paid for already. :)

173303

Two23

4-Jan-2018, 06:52

Very good chance I'll be interested in 5x7 if I can get the 4x5 working for me.

Kent in SD

Steven Tribe

4-Jan-2018, 09:17

The mods can change the title for you if you ask nicely!

My guess is that there would be a demand for full plate, if you can manage that size.

Box design is already a collectable!

Nodda Duma

4-Jan-2018, 12:27

Thanks for the tip. And thanks for the compliment on the box! That was fun.

I have made whole plates / full plates (8.5" x 6.5") recently. They came out beautiful. There are two packs of 5 plates available at the link in my signature.

AuditorOne

4-Jan-2018, 14:57

Now all I need is a source for plans to build some glass plate holders for my full plate camera.

Oren Grad

4-Jan-2018, 15:20

I wish I could change the title of this thread, so that I can announce possible other standard-offering size plates besides 4x5.

I've changed the thread title.

Nodda Duma

4-Jan-2018, 17:24

Thanks, Oren

William Whitaker

4-Jan-2018, 20:15

A vote here for 5x7 and 1/4-plate.:o

Steven Tribe

5-Jan-2018, 07:10

Looks like the full plate have gone already and it appears postage is restricted to the USA.

I think you may have underestimated the sort of demand you will be getting - perhaps you should already warn your partner!

There are a lot pf people who have started wetplate in the last decade, who have given up because of fumes or the real problem with stocking up with problem postage items. I am one of these.

Tin Can

5-Jan-2018, 07:45

Nodda Duma

5-Jan-2018, 10:34

Randy,

Feel free to start a thread for Dry Plate Photographs when you have your plate developed successfully (did I mention gentle agitation and constant temperature?) and scanned in. I've never seen one on the forum and it would be a welcome addition. I would suggest keeping all formats together, and just specify the format as part of the technical info for the photo when you post. Maybe just post a link here that points to that thread.

Oh and going back through my notebook of development notes, I found a note about temperature that I must have forgotten over the past year: Lower development temperature helps minimize frilling... so keep your constant temp to 68F - 65F. My note said try to keep development temps at 65F, but my darkroom is usually maintained at 68F and I found 5 minutes w/ HC-110 Dil B works well there, so that went on the label. If you go lower, increase development time perhaps somewhere in 5-7 minutes. Feel free to experiment, I'm interested in results that expand from the one datapoint on the box.

Re: The branding issue is a consequence of the sort of spontaneous start to selling plates just before Christmas '17. I had established my "storefront" name as Pictoriographica about a year ago to sell prints. I think that's a cool word and I'll stick with that as the "company name". The name on the box of plates, "J. Lane Dry Plates" was sort of arbitrarily chosen when I put together the label for a box of plates I sent to a fellow earlier this year. I just stuck with it for future labels, and didn't think to tie them together better when I listed them on my Etsy store. So I've decided the name of the plates, J. Lane Dry Plates, will be the product name for "Normal" sensitivity emulsion. Future emulsions with different sensitivities (like orthochromatic) will have different names.

Pictoriographica's not on the box label because, well ... I have no excuse for that and I should probably put it on there somewhere lol

I figure I can get away with this because George Eastman set the precedent for confusing us all by using more than one name interchangeably: Eastman and Kodak

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Nodda Duma

5-Jan-2018, 10:42

Oren Grad

5-Jan-2018, 11:00

I'm going to shoot a J. Lane Dry Plate today. Will post any result tonight.

Jason, perhaps you should start a new thread for images made on your plates. Consider the image galleries are divided, into 4X5 and larger and those like 1/4 plate and smaller.

To Mods, it would be unfortunate to end up with 2 threads for the same emulsion and product.

Jason is 'J. Lane Dry Plates' your ongoing product and company name? I like it.

This thread is the wrong place for images going forward. IMHO

Let's try to stick to our usual practice. As people get their hands on the plates and start to work with them, threads/posts that are for image sharing can go into the Image Sharing subforums, while threads/posts that are primarily intended for raising and discussing technical issues should go into the Darkroom: Film subforum. This thread should be reserved for Jason's announcements and for discussion with him about product specifications and availability. As always, discussions about individual orders should be conducted privately.

Looking forward to trying these plates myself and to seeing what others will do with them!

Tin Can

5-Jan-2018, 11:22

Good plan!

Let's try to stick to our usual practice. As people get their hands on the plates and start to work with them, threads/posts that are for image sharing can go into the Image Sharing subforums, while threads/posts that are primarily intended for raising and discussing technical issues should go into the Darkroom: Film subforum. This thread should be reserved for Jason's announcements and for discussion with him about product specifications and availability. As always, discussions about individual orders should be conducted privately.

Looking forward to trying these plates myself and to seeing what others will do with them!

Steven Tribe

5-Jan-2018, 11:45

PM 1/1 plate order sent.

I suppose that "corner pieces" is the best packaging design as the corners are most liable to damage in the post?

You are going down an interesting historical path! You must keep some of the early plates to see if the speed increases over time.

Nodda Duma

5-Jan-2018, 13:46

Someone brought up a good question in a PM and I thought I'd share the answer: "Do I mix the Kodak Rapid Hardening Fixer at Film Strength or Paper Strength?"

Answer: Mix to Film Strength. In fact, on the instructions included in the box of KRHF, it stipulates "Films and Plates"

The instructions provide volumes only for 1 gallon or more.

I mix the KRHF 32oz at a time (and it lasts for a long time), using the following amounts and mixing per the instructions:

H2O: 16oz
Solution A: 8 oz
Solution B: 7/8 oz (26mL)

Mix per instructions then bring level to 32 oz with addition of more H2O.

JeffBradford

5-Jan-2018, 17:11

Have you made plates in the 9x12 cm size? My cameras with plate holders are 9x12 and 5x7.

Nodda Duma

5-Jan-2018, 17:21

Have you made plates in the 9x12 cm size? My cameras with plate holders are 9x12 and 5x7.

Not yet but I can pretty easily if you'd like some. Probably do it this weekend. If you're interested send me a PM!

5x7's are coming soon

Nodda Duma

6-Jan-2018, 07:57

Here's a plate that is sized for use in a 35mm camera. I've started using scrap glass to make these for emulsion testing, since my Nikon has a faster lens and is easier to duck out of the darkroom to snap a photo as soon as the coating dries.

I took the photo last week, but just now got around to developing it. I used a Nikon F3HP, which goes down to ISO 12, and then overexposed an additional 1 1/3 stop. So I shot it at maybe ISO 4 if the meter was correct. I thought that was interesting.

This plate is made from the same batch (#004) that most of you guys ordered, but with a better subbing layer that I'm testing.

I developed it for 5 minutes in HC-110 dil B at 67 degrees. Indicator stop bath. Fixed in hardening fixer. That's all my usual process, but then I washed the plate throughout a range of temps.

Once it dries I'll scan it in to look at the grain.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180106/7b685aae3afb19c40aaebaa76c96d9e4.jpg

-Jason

Nodda Duma

6-Jan-2018, 08:16

Scanned image.

According to my calculations, I exposed this at about ISO 6. So I'm going to do some testing to see if the emulsion can be run faster than the ISO 2 that I baselined in an earlier batch. Maybe it is faster than I expected! I'd be interested to hear results from any of you all who want to do some similar testing.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180106/dd96bfdcafc67be72eee42b21236a5e8.jpg

Nodda Duma

7-Jan-2018, 07:29

11"x14" plates packed up and ready to go.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180107/65fbe16b6a4e744c50639b338629db49.jpg

William Whitaker

7-Jan-2018, 08:34

Now that's tantalizing!
Is this a harbinger of things to come?

Conrad . Marvin

7-Jan-2018, 10:20

Nodda Duma

7-Jan-2018, 10:44

This looks great, I'm sure that you will be quite busy pouring emulsions! I was making dry plates for a few years before I moved and don't yet have a darkroom. It is pretty tricky to get consistent results and even more difficult to find glass that is thin enough. Anyway, great to see that others are also interested in the process and "look" that only comes with dry plate emulsions.
Thanks!

Thanks, yes.. it's taken a couple years to perfect my technique and source the right glass (which I've done). Results have been consistent for several emulsion batches now... I wouldn't have considered offering them for sale if they weren't coming out awesome.

-Jason

Randy

8-Jan-2018, 05:14

Jason, perhaps a stupid question - can your dry-plate mix be coated onto aluminum for making "dry tintypes".

Nodda Duma

8-Jan-2018, 06:12

Jason, perhaps a stupid question - can your dry-plate mix be coated onto aluminum for making "dry tintypes".

Interesting. I've never considered it. I'd have to test. I would think it depends on how well the emulsion adheres to the Al2O3 layer that is always present on aluminum, and the state that layer is in (i.e. surface prep).

I have a block of machined flat aluminum laying around that I could try on. When I do, I'll report the results.

Randy

8-Jan-2018, 07:10

Jason, doesn't the aluminum surface for "tintypes" have to be blackened for the developed negative image to appear positive in the finished product? If so, I guess that might affect your test.

Pere Casals

8-Jan-2018, 08:51

To apply photoemulsion to metal plates just prepare the metallic surface with single coat layer of polyurethane to obtain a surface for the emulsion to adhere well.

Surface has to be hydrophile, if not instead a layer you obtain drops on the surface.

A good practice is once the polyurethane is dry, to apply an undercotat of Type R gelatin (ADOX COLLOIDA R. or the like) or simply food gelatin, and once dried you apply the photo emulsion.

That intermediate gelatin R layer can be omited... it requires a drying time and a it is a new chance to take dust.

Photo emulsion can be applied to a wide range of of surfaces.

With absorbent materials like fabric, papers or wood normally a pre-coat of Type R gelatin is done to save silver rich photo emulsion.

Type P gelatin is used to mix the emulsion, this kind of gelatin may contain some compounds that may be benefical for emulsion speed. Type R is used for under or over coating.

You can also apply the photo emulsion to mylar sheets to obtain film. This is kindly described by Denise Ross in The Light Farm. She tells what kind of mylar sheets are hydrophile and suitable to be coated with P-E, some sheets are lipophile and coating would be very bad, because forming drops.

The coated metal plate can be used as if it was print paper...

Nodda Duma

9-Jan-2018, 10:23

I've made 5"x7" plates available for purchase at my Etsy store, if you were interested in that size.

edit: Also added options for other sizes (I'm starting to replenish my supply of glass, in case you were wondering).

Thanks,
Jason

Nodda Duma

10-Jan-2018, 12:15

By the way, I was asked about storage of plates. Here is a link to the archival envelopes that I use. They also have archival boxes specifically for plates:

http://www.gaylord.com/Preservation/Archival-Envelopes%2C-Sleeves-%26-Protectors/Gaylord-Archival%26%23174%3B-80-lb-Text-Buffered-Four-Flap-Negative-Enclosures-with-Scores-%2850-Pack%29/p/HYB01678

locutus

10-Jan-2018, 12:51

....thats a interesting company name

Nodda Duma

12-Jan-2018, 05:59

Here's a fun picture. This is a set of glass plates that are prepped for coating. The smallest plate is full plate size. That's 6.5" x 8.5".

The largest is 20" x 12".

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180112/5e1527f8b054bde79aed43818decd36b.jpg

William Whitaker

12-Jan-2018, 06:25

The round one is interesting... :)

Nodda Duma

12-Jan-2018, 07:11

Lol. The round plate is where some of the action happens. I have two of those which I picked up from the "still good pile" at the local dump. I have been tempted to coat it, but it serves as a level surface for some of the test plates while the emulsion cools and sets.

Nodda Duma

13-Jan-2018, 11:09

My wife suggested I create a facebook page for my "shop". So if you're on facebook you can click on this link to like the page and see updates on my plate making activities.

https://www.facebook.com/Pictoriographica-463027520759260/?ref=bookmarks

Tin Can

13-Jan-2018, 11:13

I wonder how the coming FB 'change' will affect cottage industry.

Nodda Duma

13-Jan-2018, 11:24

I wonder how the coming FB 'change' will affect cottage industry.

I figure it's an easy way to share info with the actual people interested in keeping track. Compared to cottage industries of the 1800s, it saves postage/ overhead costs of mailing fliers and taking out ads :) .

Randy

13-Jan-2018, 15:06

Gentle agitation rinse in room temperature water
- 20 minutes if hypo washed
- 40 minutes if not hypo washed.

Jason, can you educate me - the wash seems long, but I have no experience with dry (or wet) plates.
Is the wash just to remove any absorbed fixer, as with film or paper? If so, I would think that dry plate emulsion will absorb very little and the glass plate will absorb none.
Is there another reason for the (long) wash that is unique to dry plate emulsion?

Nodda Duma

13-Jan-2018, 17:18

Hi Randy,

Great question!

The emulsion is thick (rapid fixer takes about 1-2 minutes to clear), and it's hardened in the fixer per my recommendations. The wash times I suggest were numbers I saw in Journals from the late 1800s, so I kept those as conservative numbers.

Additionally, I just haven't tested for washing. That's kind of a key insight into my engineering mindset (and all good engineers, of course). I'll only make improvements or changes that have been verified as acceptable with testing. I have a priority list of improvements to make within available bandwidth, so those come first.

That said, it'd be awesome if someone were able to test for shorter wash times with a proven method and conclusive results. I'd love to know. I just can't get to it myself.

One thing I did do is put "gentle agitation" to rest starting with boxes labeled "Batch 006".

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180114/1261a51e1a5b546116bcfa106e3ff9d0.jpg

Two23

13-Jan-2018, 20:35

Tin Can

13-Jan-2018, 20:51

I can second that. Tonight I had problems getting plates 3 and 4 into 5X7 reducers to 4X5. Gave up and got one fairly easily into a 1905 Premo 4X5 holder. The second 4X5 I had to force in and it was a devil to get it out.

That said I have 2 drying right now and will scan tonight.

I ruined my plates 1 and 2 by making a mistake with my fixer. Checking my internal notes, i mixed the fixer the same as the developer. 25/1. It just washed off the emulsion.:)

I will supply more details with the scans.

Nodda Duma

13-Jan-2018, 22:08

I tried to load some 4x5 plates in my 4x5 Graphic Plate (holders) Type II. Loading them in the dark (no red light) I couldn't figure out where the slot was in the holder. Took the holder back out into the light and realized the plates are only held by a lip at the top and bottom. Back into the dark, still couldn't get them to go. The plates were just a bit too wide. The holders have an opening 102.1mm but the plates seem to be about 2mm wider than that. I suppose I need the older wooden plate holders from c.1905?

Kent in SD

Hey Kent,

I'm sorry you're having trouble...The plates don't do you much good if you can't use them. I'm making 4x5's this weekend, so I'll be able to get some new ones out to you later this week if you can stand the wait. These teething troubles always happen, but it still sucks when they do.

The older wooden plate holders -- which are what I extensively tested ... thinking that's all that was out there -- consistently have an opening of about 104.5 or so mm (4.1" - 4.15"). So lesson learned: Once I found out there's holders undersized from that (Chamonix, Linhof, and now Graphics), I started cutting plates to 100mm width to ensure the plates will fit in everything. The other thing that helps is that I bought a benchtop glass cutter... the edges are much straighter than the drunken meanderings I was making by hand.

Thanks for your patience. We'll get you squared away.

-Jason

Tin Can

13-Jan-2018, 22:24

Ok, don't all scream at once. Here are 4x5 plate #3&4. #1&2 I screwed up. Blanks.

So many variables at once make these poor first examples, but Jason and others want samples.

Shot inside with strobes. Sekonic incident read ISO 3 F11. Gundlach Portrait 16-1/4" f6 wide open. Soft.

Rodinol 1/25, water stop. TF5 1/3. 5/1/5 min.

#1 2 Pops strobe. Short 3 min wash on #1 Saw frilling.

#2 1 pop strobe. Added pinch Alum to both developer and TF5. Frilling is gone.

The 4X5 glass is too big didn't fit in Kodak 5X7 to 4X65 reducers. Push fit into 1906 Premo 4X5 plate holder.

I converted to B&W and added a tint. I always do.

1 https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4699/24809540167_c1988db69f_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/DNknWx)Frilling TF5 FS PS (https://flic.kr/p/DNknWx) by moe.randy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

2 https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4702/38780543275_2974e90e76_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/225Uqqt)Alum both RO9 TF5 (https://flic.kr/p/225Uqqt) by moe.randy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4696/38780541785_d32d339ed4_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/225UpYM)As scanned. (https://flic.kr/p/225UpYM) by moe.randy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

I strobe pop.

Both with wedge as scanned.

#1 exposed with 2 pops of strobe. Saw

Steven Tribe

14-Jan-2018, 03:43

I will trying out the 1/1 plate size within the next few weeks or so! I have been doing the final checking of an old plate camera - light seals, GG distances and some dedicated full plate lenses. There is no doubt, but that book type holders do allow for considerable variation in actual glass plate dimensions. My holders will accept sizes in the range 16.0 to 16.5cm by 21.3 to 21.6cm. This is for two different holder manufacturers.

Looking at various other wet/dry plate holders I have, including back loaders, this kind of range is typical.

Preparing for hardening - of which I have zero experience - I see there are recommendations for adding hardener at the stop bath stage?

Nodda Duma

14-Jan-2018, 05:09

Randy

14-Jan-2018, 06:27

I am in the process of modifying three wooden 5X7 film holders to take 4X5 plates. I am hoping I can work them to take two plates each, rather than just one.

The wash times I suggest were numbers I saw in Journals from the late 1800s, so I kept those as conservative numbers.

Jason, do you know if those wash times were for "running water" - did they have running water back then? I usually just soak my film for 20-30 minutes with changes of water every 5 minutes or so - just wondering if soaking plates will work as well.

Tin Can

14-Jan-2018, 06:48

Randy,

Your wash time questions are pertinent I washed my J L plates # 3 & 4 with reduced water leting them soak in a 5x7 tray with the same mild agit i used in the chems. I gently poured off the water 3 times and refilled with a soft flow not on the emulsion. Shortest wash was 3 minutes and longest 6 minutes. So far.

We have many variables right now. Even our water is a huge variable.

Right now I am not concerned with archival methods. I am implementing for the first time Ilfords reduced water washing. https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Reducing-Wash-Water.pdf

Jason, my 4X5 plates are too long. The 5X7 glass i had custom made is 1/16 under nominal and very loose in my holders, almost but not quite falling our. I find that preferable as it's easy to get them out of the holder. My hands are not nimble.

Nodda Duma

14-Jan-2018, 06:49

I don't have running water in my darkroom, so my plates get washed for 20 minutes in an 11x14 tray of tap water with a small pump that keeps the water circulating. I haven't seen degradation in 2 1/2 years..that's all I can say. I can't speculate about long-term storage beyond the washing methods I recommend on the box.

I'm sure your method will be fine -- it seems reasonable, and even I'm not concerned about archival washing with my own plates -- but I just can't speak to the archival quality beyond what original sources say without testing.

I'll add it to "The List" for future investigation, though.

Nodda Duma

14-Jan-2018, 06:54

Randy Moe,

Can you tell me if 4.96" length (126mm) would be ok? How much clearance would that give you in your adapter? I can't go much shorter because they will fall out of antique holders, but that is the length I'm settling into as a compromise.

Btw, I've been using Ilford's washing method for years with film and it works great. I follow it up with a dunk of the film in photoflo solution and hang to dry

Tin Can

14-Jan-2018, 08:14

My 1906 Primo 4X5 LN plate holders are 4.060" wide 4.815 long at the opening, but there is a slight ledge above the plate's 'home' I can't measure inside it. At the other end, there is a spring in a deep slot where the glass goes.This spring must be compressed to load any plate, then released and the plate is captive under the other ledge and the the deep slot.

My Kodak 4X5 wood inserts are for a Kodak 5X7 plate holder. 4.015 wide at the smallest and 5.02 in length. All measurements +-0.01. Perhaps Basswood. Notice your plate cannot fit in the insert. Hard for me to determine under safelight and crappy fingers. They were forced into the Premo holders. My holders are in such good shape I hesitate to ruin them with oversize glass. NOS is hard to find.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4708/24817255537_2803d5247d_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/DP1Vsa)Premo 4X5 2 (https://flic.kr/p/DP1Vsa) by moe.randy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4712/38788373945_a8b7f9a636_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/226Ayd2)Premo 4X5 1 (https://flic.kr/p/226Ayd2) by moe.randy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4751/24817255697_37e955537a_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/DP1VuV)Kodak 4X5 insert glass won't fit (https://flic.kr/p/DP1VuV) by moe.randy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

Steven Tribe

14-Jan-2018, 08:57

Steven,

Those dimensions seem to be tight for whole plate. Is there any way you can do a fit check and let me know if the plates fit?

I assumed, from an example I had measured, that whole plate holders had 16.76cm (6.6") wide openings. I also had original whole plates to base my cuts off. They were exactly 6.5 x 8.5.

The width (6.5") is just OK for mine and the length (8.5") has plenty of clearance. This makes for easier installation.
Will do a check and give feedback.

To be honest, old wood plate holders have shrunk a little in the last 100 years - as well as now being a little out of square, perhaps! So, a little narrower than the original 6.5" (and 4", 5", 8" etc.) would give a easier fit? There appears to be extra clearance given in the longer dimension.

Any thoughts about hardening in the stop bath?

Nodda Duma

14-Jan-2018, 10:24

I don't have any thoughts to add about hardener in the stop bath...never tried it. I've seen reference to hardener bath before development, but not the stop.

I'll dig around if I get a chance and let you know what I find out.

-Jason

barnacle

14-Jan-2018, 15:22

Jason,

A data point for you: MPP wooden glass plate holders, circa 1948?, have an absolute maximum dimension for the glass of 102mm wide by 127mm. The size of the aperture, i.e. the exposed area, is 102mm by 120mm. Can't see an easy way to measure the maximum glass thickness but the metal film inserts I made years ago for them are 2mm thick at the edges.

Neil

Nodda Duma

14-Jan-2018, 15:59

Thanks, barnacle. My plates would fit.

jnantz

14-Jan-2018, 18:27

i got a box of nodda duma's dry plates
and they are fun to work with.
much better coated than i have ever done ! :)
i don't have any scans of my results
but i used them for darkroom work
instead of camera work ..
good stuff! you won't be disappointed if you get a box
thanks for this fun product nodda duma!
john

Two23

14-Jan-2018, 19:38

Randy Moe,

Can you tell me if 4.96" length (126mm) would be ok? How much clearance would that give you in your adapter? I can't go much shorter because they will fall out of antique holders, but that is the length I'm settling into as a compromise.

126mm is just barely long enough for my Graphics holders, but I think it would work.

Kent in SD

Tin Can

14-Jan-2018, 20:33

Sorry 223, this is not aimed at you.

We need to decide if we measure in metric or SAE.

My reliable Starrett dial caliber is SAE. American made holders we are using are measured in inches, they were made that way.

I CAN convert but don't want to. I am not a Luddite and have worked with both systems all my life. However, if I need a calculator every time we post. I am dismayed.

It is also very inconsistent for one of us to measure in SAE and the next to use Metric.

J, Lane is selling plates in any size. Let's hear his opinion. IDK

However, I have 6 plates left that don't fit my 2 different brand USA made SAE holders. Or is that ANSI.

2.54 forever...

Nodda Duma

15-Jan-2018, 05:21

Randy, I've got a new set of plates heading your way. The first plates that went out had two issues that I've addressed in newer plates:

I used to cut glass to size with hand-cutter. This worked fine for all my holders but it's obviously causing problems. I have a benchtop cutter now which makes straight cuts like from a factory. But more awesome because I cut them.

Glass was cut to 4.0" x 5.0" to match the dimensions of antique plates. While I fit check each plate that went out to ensure they fit in antique (and what I thought was representative) holders, I now cut them undersized to dimensions (regardless of the units) which ensures they'll fit every holder I'm now aware of.

I've also started treating the edges for safety, and I've added a round notch on the upper right edge like what's done for sheet film and for the same reason.

As for standard vs metric, I worked as a lens designer for the Navy for years and learned to mentally convert between the standard units we used on drawings and the metric units that lens designers use in prescriptions. It was the same way in the private sector after I left. So I can convert between them like Pope John Paul II could bounce back and forth between languages during a conversation, and when I do it's just habit.

I'll try to post values in both metric and standard from now on. Like this: New plates have nominal dimensions of 4.961" x 3.937" (126x100 mm). Regardless of the units, I'm confident the new plates will fit much easier than plates from the first public run.

I do appreciate the feedback..without it there's no way to fix these issues.

-Jason

Tin Can

15-Jan-2018, 07:21

Hi Jason,

I see a fresh batch has shipped from your Etsy store. https://www.etsy.com/listing/581274765/new-made-4x5-or-5x7-dry-plates-10-plates?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=dry%20plates&ref=sr_gallery-1-1

Thank you.

Last night I watched a glass plate cleaning youtube which related how edge treatment reduces frilling. https://youtu.be/B0rvfo71ZNM
ps For those annoyed by full links, there are more that will not click on a Hot Link. Full links give us some idea what we are clicking on.

Two23

15-Jan-2018, 07:26

1. I used to cut glass to size with hand-cutter. This worked fine for all my holders but it's obviously causing problems. I have a benchtop cutter now which makes straight cuts like from a factory.

2. I've also started treating the edges for safety, and I've added a round notch on the upper right edge like what's done for sheet film and for the same reason.

3. New plates have nominal dimensions of 4.961" x 3.937" (126x100 mm). Regardless of the units, I'm confident the new plates will fit much easier than plates from the first public run.

1. This should not only help uniformity, but also make you more efficient. I think you're going to see some increasing demand.

2. I like the notch idea. Also like dulling the edges. Because of the stupid tablets I'm on for awhile, once I start to bleed it takes awhile to get it stopped.

3. I think those will work for me too. Again, it's an increase in efficiency (standardization) for you.

Kent in SD

Nodda Duma

15-Jan-2018, 07:41

Thanks guys.

I must admit, transitioning from making these for myself to making these for others was a big leap of faith and more than a little stressful. I knew there would be bumps in the road, but I wasn't sure from what direction it'd come from. So feedback -- good or bad -- is important.

The support you guys have shown has been awesome. My goal is to give people better access to dry plate photography, and better access to the emulsions of the time which no one else really makes anymore on a commercial basis (that and making my wife happy about being able to cover my hobby expenses). So working through these issues is good in that it helps me get to that goal and gives photographers more options in a time when options are dwindling.

So yeah I'm pretty excited about this stuff, even when it's about uncovering issues and working to solve them. Tired from working during the day and coating plates at night, but excited nonetheless!

-Jason

Steven Tribe

16-Jan-2018, 03:50

Thanks for your heroic efforts. We are only delighted to be part of the experiments and realise this is not a commercial venture but a real contribution to the waft of possibilities available for LF in general!

Nodda Duma

16-Jan-2018, 07:23

Thanks for the comments, Steve. Everyone has been awesome with the support.

But don't feel too bad. Swamp me with orders! That's what keeps me improving both the quality of the current offering as well as exploring new possibilities.

Steven Tribe

18-Jan-2018, 06:05

My 1/1 dryplates have made it to Denmark and through customs (+25%!) - but I won't be able to get them for about 18 days (travel abroad very soon and slow internal postage) so no feedback from me until then. I won't waste my time as I have some old ilford lantern slide plates (3 1/4 x3 1/4") which I can use to test development, hardening etc!

Does anyone know(remember) the likely speed of these Ilford lantern plates?

Randy

18-Jan-2018, 10:24

Jason, when / if you decide that this project is to much for you, do up a pdf of your chems and process, step by step, and offer it to us form members at a di$count - perhaps with a video included :) I would like to, some day, coat my own.

Nodda Duma

18-Jan-2018, 11:41

Nah, this workload is nothing compared to high profile R&D projects I've been on in the past.

In any case if it gets to be too much for me at night, I'll quit my day job and do this during the daylight hours.

That or put the kids to work as glass cutters.

:)

Tin Can

18-Jan-2018, 13:11

Fresh plates delivered today. I'll shoot and develop tonight.

Thanks for the quick turnaround!

Tin Can

18-Jan-2018, 22:07

I have excuses, but I am getting there. My first excuse is Kodak Liquid Quick Fix with Hardner. I mixed a Qt with distilled per instructions. My body instantly did not like this stuff. The smell was horrible, the touch is very bad. I got a rash from one drop. Never had that reaction before. I will go back to TF5 immediately.

Which threw off my night of developing. I shot 2, same exposure at f5.6 and f22. Strobes. All good. But I put the first plate in the soup face down. It has damaged emulsion. My fault. Not scanned.

This one I got it face up but short washed again as I was annoyed. Kodak QF needs a long wash is almost binds to the glass, noticeably gummy? Or oily? Looked scummy. TF5 never looks like that. But as i say I short washed out of haste. Maybe a long wash would show a lot less fixer marks on the glass, as you can see in the scan.

I shot old buddy Elwood with a black background to eliminate edge issues. So there are none. Try again tomorrow.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4604/39741498672_784ce5a31c_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/23xPyYY)Batch 2 #1 (https://flic.kr/p/23xPyYY) by moe.randy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

Randy

19-Jan-2018, 17:16

Can someone advise - I see Randy Moe processed some in Rodinal 1:25. I don't have any HC-110 so will be processing in Rodinal as well, for now.
Is 1:25 close to HC-110 "B" - which Jason recommends for 5 minutes at 68°?
Made my first exposure this afternoon - will process tomorrow.

Nodda Duma

20-Jan-2018, 04:12

Looks like he developed for 5 minutes and had good results.

Tray develop under safelight and you can watch the image form. I'd encourage you to test with whatever developer you have and share the results. You are in the fortunate position of testing a product that is new (for modern photographers) to the market, and thus exploring uncharted territory here. That's part of what makes these so much fun!

Tin Can

20-Jan-2018, 06:31

Yes Rodinol at 1/25 worked well. Water stop. FIx is up to you.

I rewashed my last plate below and used a drop of Dawn as Photo Flo. Cleaned right up.

Looking at my last plate I cannot imagine a better result to a new experiment. I’m very happy with what is evolving.

However Randy did not ask me, so others need to step up. 😎

Randy

20-Jan-2018, 10:05

Thanks for the info Randy - I'll mix up some hardening fix and get at it.

Corran

20-Jan-2018, 21:38

Got some plates shot today. My wife's brother is visiting so shot some of my niece and nephew.

Calculated out sunny 16, added a stop for safety and shot handheld at f/2.8. Not a bad start - lots to learn here and need to think about / remember the issues with ortho sensitivity. Dev'd in HC-110 dil. B in tray under a safelight till I thought it looked good. A little thin in the shadows for sure. More exposure is probably always good and then pull the dev if needed?

http://www.garrisaudiovisual.com/photosharing/glassplate-9168-9-2.jpg

Tin Can

20-Jan-2018, 21:57

Looks very good Bryan.

B.S.Kumar

20-Jan-2018, 22:10

Very nice, Bryan. Lots of potential, I think. Speed 1/60th or 1/125th?

Kumar

Corran

20-Jan-2018, 22:16

Thanks guys. First was 1/25, second at 1/10 (shade).

Nodda Duma

21-Jan-2018, 00:26

rbiemer

21-Jan-2018, 10:36

I suspect my wallet will eventually regret this but:
Any recommendations for a 4x5 plate holder? That will be usable in modern/current cameras?

I've looked around on line a bit and there are quite a few but I can't always tell if they will work with my Intrepid. Are there any plate holders that will effectively just replace my Lisco film holders?

Thanks!
Rob

locutus

21-Jan-2018, 11:37

I've been going through ebay the last week to find some, but i have to admit i'm also a bit puzzled by which ones to get... suggestions welcome!

Randy

21-Jan-2018, 11:39

I wonder if I can get a definition for "very gentle agitation"...? I just tried to process my first plate - Rodinal 1:25, 66°, in a 5X7 tray, emulsion up - gently rocked the tray (barely lifting one side, setting it lowly down, then another side) 1st 30 seconds then as I was doing the same after 1 minute, for 15 seconds, a large section of the emulsion in one corner lifted, about 1/5th of the size of the plate - anyway, that one is toast. Help!

Randy

21-Jan-2018, 11:57

I've been going through ebay the last week to find some, but i have to admit i'm also a bit puzzled by which ones to get... suggestions welcome!

I have one old wooden 4X5 plate holder, it has the metal springs in the bottom on both sides to keep pressure on the plate. There is absolutely no markings on it anywhere to identify the brand - no numbers or letters anywhere. I just tried it in a standard modern 4X5 back and it fits just fine - the only problem is the raised ridge at the top of the holder is about 3-4mm to far to fit into the slot in the film back - so - it would seem to me that a very simple modification of gluing a strip of wood or plastic across the holder would solve that problem.

Tin Can

21-Jan-2018, 12:31

I barely move the tray. I almost lift the bottom left and wiggle it very slightly. Ripples, not waves. I can't see it under my LED safelight. However my night vision is gone. I can no longer drive at night.

I don't think it's the Rodinol, as it's been used for a very long time on many old emulsions. Efke 25 can be developed with Rodinal 1/25 for 5 minutes per Mas Dev App.

I wonder if I can get a definition for "very gentle agitation"...? I just tried to process my first plate - Rodinal 1:25, 66°, in a 5X7 tray, emulsion up - gently rocked the tray (barely lifting one side, setting it lowly down, then another side) 1st 30 seconds then as I was doing the same after 1 minute, for 15 seconds, a large section of the emulsion in one corner lifted, about 1/5th of the size of the plate - anyway, that one is toast. Help!

Randy

21-Jan-2018, 12:44

Thanks RM, I'll expose another plate and try desperately to be even more gentle.

Tin Can

21-Jan-2018, 12:52

Thanks RM, I'll expose another plate and try desperately to be even more gentle.

I think we should overexpose. But I don't know yet. I figure on burning a box before getting a wet handle on the situation.

If I find my 1/4 plate holders and hangers I may switch to that size, until we get some confidence. Shopping in my shed shortly. It's heat wave. 51 F right now.

Randy

21-Jan-2018, 13:23

I think we should overexpose.I actually am hoping a slight underexposure is do-able, like a stop or so - I am hoping this process will make a suitable ambrotype.

Nodda Duma

21-Jan-2018, 13:35

In post #6 I indicate what to look for in older plate holders that you might see for sale on eBay (or similar places).

Randy,

Frilling can be expected, but 1/5th the plate is a bit much. If the plate was at the same temp before you put it in, you might not have been doing anything wrong. Every so often before I added a subbing layer, I'd get a plate that would just not do what it's supposed to do. So it may have just been a victim of my working through how to make these plates in the quantities needed to meet the demand. Making 100s of plates a week is definitely different than making a dozen plates every so often. So I'm learning, too. Glass prep, coating, etc., I'm getting there, but it's a learning process all around... there is no denying that.

I guess that's a long-winded way of saying my primary goal is that you enjoy using the plates, so keep track of the ones that fail and I will replace them on my dime.

-Jason

cp_photo

21-Jan-2018, 13:40

I'm totally intrigued by these dry plates and can't wait to buy some from you. However, I too need to source a plate holder. I'm inclined to buy a nice new Chamonix one to go with my Chamonix 4x5. Thanks for offering this product!

Nodda Duma

21-Jan-2018, 13:59

My pleasure!

They will fit the Chamonix plate holders.

I just did a search on eBay for "4x5 plate holders" (no quotes), and the Seneca's, Centurys, and Premos that I see come up in 4x5 will all work. I have examples of each of those in my collection that I've used pretty much every week or day for the past two years of making plates. Others similar to those will work just as well, but just note the location of the rib stop as I mentioned in post 6.

No affiliation (just trying to help you guys out), but these will work as well:

https://www.etsy.com/listing/539928401/wooden-film-holders-4x5-set-of-2
https://www.etsy.com/listing/290676509/antique-wood-4x5-film-holder-large

Randy

21-Jan-2018, 14:00

Thanks Jason, but I have a feeling I should have lifted the side of the tray much slower - The idea of "slow" may not have translated from my brain to my hand - I lifted it "short" rather than "slow"...if that makes sense. I raised each side about 1/4 - 1/2" but probably not near as slow as I should have.

It's probably like loading a black powder rifle for the first time...do as you are told!

My next attempt will be very slow agitation.

Corran

21-Jan-2018, 14:04

Awesome!

Develop for 5 minutes in HC-110 dil B if you shoot ISO 2. There's still some development in the shadows going on almost all the way to that time. They'll come out nice at 5 minutes. You'll be tempted to pull it sooner, but your patience will be rewarded. :)

Thanks. I think I developed for 7-8 minutes...compensated a bit for temperature drop from nominal in my still-cold darkroom. I also had the 6-year-old in the first photo "helping me" so wasn't being too exact on time measurement! :)

Like Randy, I am interested in an ambrotype-like process if possible. Viewed obliquely on a black background they look like a positive, but in "normal" diffuse light, not so much. I think my exposure, in light that was probably a bit warmer than optimal being later in the afternoon, was a little under.

Tin Can

21-Jan-2018, 14:24

I found a 3-1/4X4-1/4 Folmer- Kodak plate holder in my shed. With standard Kodak Film Sheaths. So Nominal 3-1/4X 4-1/4 plates should fit. The sheaths are 3.238 X 4.244 +-0.005

Nice design with flat steel spring under the plate. The holders have little hooks to capture the plate and when released the spring pushes the plate out. Nice and far better than a Premo.

I didn't find my 1/4 plate hangers yet. I have also have 2-1/4 X 3-1/4, 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10 hangers and use them for film. Since film is loose in all my hangers I think, but have not tested, plates fit right in.

Jason have you made any 1/4 plates yet?

Are the emulsions still the same? How will we know batches?

Nodda Duma

21-Jan-2018, 16:18

I have made Quarter Plates. I might even have some made up or at least have the glass cut.

See this listing:

https://www.etsystudio.com/listing/569548506/new-whole-plate-85-x-65-half-plate

The emulsion batch number is on the back of the box. Right now I'm on batch #6. It was a 1 gallon batch (!), and I'm getting low enough that I need to make another. Which is awesome. The batches are all the same emulsions made to the same recipe, except that I used bigger containers. I take notes on each batch so if there's an issue I can reference my notes to troubleshoot.

Nodda Duma

21-Jan-2018, 16:19

Tin Can

21-Jan-2018, 16:33

Great!

I have made Quarter Plates. I might even have some made up or at least have the glass cut.

See this listing:

https://www.etsystudio.com/listing/569548506/new-whole-plate-85-x-65-half-plate

The emulsion batch number is on the back of the box. Right now I'm on batch #6. It was a 1 gallon batch (!), and I'm getting low enough that I need to make another. Which is awesome. The batches are all the same emulsions made to the same recipe, except that I used bigger containers. I take notes on each batch so if there's an issue I can reference my notes to troubleshoot.

Tin Can

21-Jan-2018, 19:04

Warning about 1/4 plate holders. I found 2 of my NOS wood holders with flaps are NOT 1/4 plate. There are stamped in hard to see lettering.

3-1/4 X 4 Lantern Slide Made in USA Graflex Rochester. Be careful what you buy. Unless you want to make Lantern slides. I might.

These would require a shorter "1/4" plate. Definitely not film holders with no rebate and plenty of plate depth. Until you measure them, they look like my 3 other iterations.

Jason do not change my order. I want 'normal' 1/4 plate.

Nodda Duma

21-Jan-2018, 19:45

Sounds good. I can toss in a couple extra sized to lantern slides for you to play with. I have dimensions for lanterns of 3.25" x 3.25". You're saying 3.25x4, correct?.

Nodda Duma

21-Jan-2018, 19:49

Btw, does anybody have a "ninth-plate" sized camera? 2" x 2.5"? I'm cutting a ton of these from scraps and need to dump them on someone. :P

Edit: Also can I ask a favor? You folks who have bought plates through my Etsy store and have tried out the plates ... could you go there and pop in a review for me (hopefully with 5 stars!)?

My wife pointed out that if people like the plates so much then why don't I have any stars in my store... There was a wager made ... You will help me get a free steak dinner.

Thanks!
Jason

Corran

21-Jan-2018, 21:23

Tin Can

21-Jan-2018, 21:31

Sounds good. I can toss in a couple extra sized to lantern slides for you to play with. I have dimensions for lanterns of 3.25" x 3.25". You're saying 3.25x4, correct?.

Yes 3.25 X 4.00. I have 2 NOS holders that size. I can use them in a Korona.

As another note. My Ikon Trona 212 holders take standard 1/4 plate so now 2 cameras to shoot.

Tin Can

21-Jan-2018, 21:54

Your Etsy store shows 30 orders, but I cannot find my first order to review. My new order is closed to review until 1/31/2018.

Perhaps you rearranged the store and lost some reviews.

What size plate is 2.25 X 3.25 I have a few kinds of those also. One type at hand right now is Mamiya x 3 DDS made in Linhof style with removable film sheaths. They can be used on Mamiya RB and as normal DDS on 2x3 cameras.

Pretty rare are Hasselblad 2.5X2.5" film holders which may be best used with a 1mm thick glass. If you include a 2.5x2.5 of your normal glass I will check fit..

Btw, does anybody have a "ninth-plate" sized camera? 2" x 2.5"? I'm cutting a ton of these from scraps and need to dump them on someone. :P

Edit: Also can I ask a favor? You folks who have bought plates through my Etsy store and have tried out the plates ... could you go there and pop in a review for me (hopefully with 5 stars!)?

My wife pointed out that if people like the plates so much then why don't I have any stars in my store... There was a wager made ... You will help me get a free steak dinner.

Thanks!
Jason

Nodda Duma

21-Jan-2018, 21:54

Suggestion, if I may - does your scraps allow for a 2 1/4 square? A workshop on wet/dry plates at my alma mater included shooting some 2 1/4 plates in a Holga. Students had a lot of fun with that size.

Yeah, it depends on what I'm cutting out of the sheet. Half the time it seems to be 2" wide, the other time I'll get 2 1/2" wide. If I knew there was a customer for 2 1/4 plates, then I'd cut some of the scraps to that size.

Nodda Duma

21-Jan-2018, 22:00

Your Etsy store shows 30 orders, but I cannot find my first order to review. My new order is closed to review until 1/31/2018.

Perhaps you rearranged the store and lost some reviews.

What size plate is 2.25 X 3.25 I have a few kinds of those also. One type at hand right now is Mamiya x 3 DDS made in Linhof style with removable film sheaths. They can be used on Mamiya RB and as normal DDS on 2x3 cameras.

Pretty rare are Hasselblad 2.5X2.5" film holders which may be best used with a 1mm thick glass. If you include a 2.5x2.5 of your normal glass I will check fit..

I'm am not a wiz at Etsy by any means, so anything is possible. Thanks for looking, though.

Here is the chart that I reference for plate sizes.

http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Plate_Sizes

2 1/4 x 3 1/4 is 120 film size (~6x9). That is close to "sixth plate" size of 2.5" x 3.5".

Tin Can

21-Jan-2018, 22:07

I'm am not a wiz at Etsy by any means, so anything is possible. Thanks for looking, though.

Here is the chart that I reference for plate sizes.

http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Plate_Sizes

2 1/4 x 3 1/4 is 120 film size (~6x9). That is close to "sixth plate" size of 2.5" x 3.5".

That document has errors. Right away I see problems with 3-1/4 X 4-1/4 listed as 3x4 film. There were both sizes.
And tonight I found a Lantern Slide mistake they are propagating. Hasselblad sizes not listed. I didn't look farther.

rbiemer

22-Jan-2018, 12:50

In post #6 I indicate what to look for in older plate holders that you might see for sale on eBay (or similar places).
-Jason

Thank you! I missed that when reading through this fascinating thread.

Rob

Steven Tribe

22-Jan-2018, 14:21

Just to confirm that the standard lantern glass slides (I have both Ilford and Gevaert in front of me from the 1960's) is 3 1/4 x 3 1/4" or 82x82mm. But other sizes may exist.

Taking about lantern glass, I have exposed one to-day from a packet that must be either from the 50's or 60's. This was to check my darkroom operations with glass plates and trying out hardener in the water stop bath. I assume that these old plates were of similar "Speed" to the new production. I used 3 secs at F.20 and got a very satisfactory exposure which emerged after about 2 minutes.

Perhaps glass plates have longer life that film based emulsion?

I can confirm my belief that these plates have no notches (Or similar) to indicate emulsion side and the edges are raw cut finish. The lighest of touches tells you which side has the emulsion!

Tin Can

22-Jan-2018, 14:41

I am certain I read there were various sizes for Lantern Slides. I researched the projectors on eBay. I posted a found one exactly one year ago today. Then a member here identified the location of the image! This one is from memory perhaps 3X3".

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4616/39843849891_d95c76efcb_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/23GS9ra)1-Magic Lantern slide Elizabeth St NYC (https://flic.kr/p/23GS9ra) by moe.randy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

Tin Can

22-Jan-2018, 14:44

Nodda Duma

22-Jan-2018, 14:49

On the oddball sizes, all you have to do is measure the dimensions of your holder and I can cut them to whatever size is needed to fit in them. It's the popular sizes that I just wanna make sure fits in every holder out there.

Jim Graves

22-Jan-2018, 17:02

Just to confirm that the standard lantern glass slides (I have both Ilford and Gevaert in front of me from the 1960's) is 3 1/4 x 3 1/4" or 82x82mm. But other sizes may exist.
........

And yet another odd size to add to the list ... the Graphic Graflex Potography book (1944 edition, p. 382) says “Graflex plate holders [the slotted holders like for the Super D] are available ... in the 3 1/4 x 4 size (for lantern slides.)”

Nodda Duma

22-Jan-2018, 22:26

Hah!

Tin Can

23-Jan-2018, 07:24

Posted the first review for J Lane Dry Plates on Etsy.

and sparked some interest on my FB feed

Nodda Duma

23-Jan-2018, 10:58

Thanks, Randy. I appreciate the support. I dropped your 1/4-sized plates off at the post office this morning.

Meanwhile, I'm about to run out of emulsion again so it's about time to make more.

-Jason

Tin Can

23-Jan-2018, 11:04

Thanks, Randy. I appreciate the support. I dropped your 1/4-sized plates off at the post office this morning.

-Jason

Shattered, I'm sure. (rock & roll joke!)

Steven Tribe

23-Jan-2018, 12:00

I did another test run (Chemicals, safelight, timing etc.) on some Gevaert lantern slides plates. These worked just as well.
I assume these diapositive plates are a process item for making lantern slides from negatives so have a speed around 10 or under - so good practice! Perhaps slow emulsions have longer shelf (freezer) life - I have never really thought about it?

Tin Can

23-Jan-2018, 16:35

I am getting much better results and need a way to handle a glass plate without touching it. I'm picking them up and ruining the emulsion where I touch. Dry is fine.

Traditional film hangers may work or not. I am still looking for my small sizes. 2x3 and 3x4. But a glass plate and it's emulsion would touch the multipoint hanger 'cage' and lift edges.

I am imagining a 3 or 4 contact point wire spring stainless steel 'basket' dipper. Like an Easter egg dipper, except this would not touch emulsion.

Hook it on and dip the plate into chems. A little spring side tension would keep the plate where we want it.

Here's a prototype. Made of rosin core solder, which obviously is not the correct metal. Notice the fingertip destruction. The less dense area is my white porch.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4770/24992846157_c65c9eabea_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/E5wSqD)Glass Plate hanger prototype 1 (https://flic.kr/p/E5wSqD) by moe.randy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

Nodda Duma

23-Jan-2018, 17:51

I have the Paterson trays that let me get my fingertip under them to lift an edge out of the tray, and then hold by the edges.

That's pretty cool. Necessity is the mother of invention for sure.

Tin Can

23-Jan-2018, 18:04

I have the Paterson trays that let me get my fingertip under them to lift an edge out of the tray, and then hold by the edges.

That's pretty cool. Necessity is the mother of invention for sure.

I am using Paterson trays, but me fingers are very clumsy. RA has got me on the run. Sung to John Lennon's 'Cold Turkey' song. https://youtu.be/IEnNEIVR9EM

I also love to make custom tools.

AuditorOne

23-Jan-2018, 18:59

Ok. I am getting ready to develop a couple of plates tonight and I realized that I still need to add some hardener to my fixer.

I am looking at 950 ml of fixer and 50 ml of hardener. Too much, too little?

I am a newbie to this hardener thing. I do have some lying around but I have never used it so any advice is appreciated.

Tin Can

23-Jan-2018, 19:27

I mixed fresh Kodak Quick Fix per instructions. Same for the Hardner then combined them.

It worked fine for me, but I cannot tolerate it. ymmv

What are you using?

Nodda Duma

23-Jan-2018, 20:12

Kodak Rapid Hardening Fixer mixes 9:1 fixer to hardener.

AuditorOne

23-Jan-2018, 21:23

I am using Legacy Pro Rapid Fixer Hardener Part B that I had from a past purchase. The ingredients are Aluminum Sulphate and Sulfuric Acid. This product mimics Kodak's Rapid Hardening Fixer so it would mix the same.

In my case I am using hypo I have mixed up myself and was just wanting to add some hardener. I did go ahead and add in 50ml though I probably should have added in the entire 100ml.

The two plates are drying and they look pretty good. I'll try to scan them tomorrow. There is a tiny bit of frilling on the same edge of each plate but nothing critical. There is a small area with some white in one corner of one of the plates like it didn't completely develop or clear, not sure which. I'm pretty sure it will show in the scan but I'm really not too concerned with it.

I am very happy with how things turned out tonight, it actually looks as if I knew what I was doing (which of course I did because all of you fine folks led the way on this.)

It is way past time for some dinner (my stomach is pretty convinced that my throat has been cut) so I will sign off for now. Hopefully I can show something tomorrow.

Tin Can

23-Jan-2018, 21:45

Just a note for my post #187.

I used Rodinal 1/25.

Water stop with 2 pinches of Alum which dissolved quickly in 20 ml distilled. I can feel the alum in the water. I forgot how often as a child my mother used Alum as astringent for Cold Sores on all the family. Which gives me a quick physical memory reference. Since age 12 I have never needed the treatment again. We had chunks of Alum.

My fix was TF5. I see no frilling at all, only damage caused by my rough touch. Which ripped off emulsion. That's 4 times I touched the emulsion while wet, in 4 baths.

I think powered grocery store Alum works. I've not yet convinced the water stop is the tray to use it in.

I will be making a dipper.

Corran

24-Jan-2018, 00:11

I also ruined a plate yesterday with my fingers when I grasped it lightly between my thumb and forefinger. Now I try to stay on the edge only. I started playing with that plate and made an abstract image that I posted in the "Trees" thread.

Speaking of trees, I shot this today to test out the plates with landscape images:

http://www.garrisaudiovisual.com/photosharing/zwerner-9186ss.jpg

Developed it in Neutol. Print developer seems to work fine. Underexposure is my fault, but I like the low-key look here. The emulsion/coating is almost too good! :)

Nodda Duma

24-Jan-2018, 03:39

Very nice, Corran! Yes, stick to the edges when handling.

.

. There is a small area with some white in one corner of one of the plates like it didn't completely develop or clear, not sure which. I'm pretty sure it will show in the scan but I'm really not too concerned with it.

.

That's unfixed emulsion, often on the back of the glass (though not always). If that's true then you can remove by wiping the back down with mild bleach cleaner or clorox cleaning wipes. You should clean the back regardless since many will have overspill and that shows up in scans and prints.

Just double check which side you're cleaning before you start cleaning off the surface (another hard earned lesson)

Steven Tribe

24-Jan-2018, 07:32

This thread is getting broad with lots of image posting - with dozens more on the way, no doubt!

Would it be a better idea to start a new thread in the images section - something like " Post your results with NOS and new Dry Plates" with abbreviated technical data?

Tin Can

24-Jan-2018, 07:48

Nodda Duma

24-Jan-2018, 08:04

I'll start a thread. I'm sure Oren will be accommodating, since all the plates I've sold (even smaller than 4x5) would have been considered large format... i.e. quarter plate, 9x12, even sixth plate are larger than medium format. 4x5 is the lower cutoff in modern days simply because many of those sizes aren't readily available (if at all) in sheet film.

Size should be specified along with whatever other technical details you want to add.

Here is a link:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?143905-Images-from-Newly-Made-Dry-Plates-and-NOS-as-well-all-sizes&p=1427101#post1427101

-Jason

Robert Brazile

24-Jan-2018, 08:58

Very nice, Corran! Yes, stick to the edges when handling.

That's unfixed emulsion, often on the back of the glass (though not always). If that's true then you can remove by wiping the back down with mild bleach cleaner or clorox cleaning wipes. You should clean the back regardless since many will have overspill and that shows up in scans and prints.

Just double check which side you're cleaning before you start cleaning off the surface (another hard earned lesson)

Or just scrape it off with a razor blade scraper, which is what I usually do. Or I use my thumbnail on the back of the developed plate just after washing, if I'm in the mood.

Robert

AuditorOne

24-Jan-2018, 11:23

Scan of first negative was posted to the new thread for glass plate negatives.

The unfixed emulsion shows in the scan as I have not cleaned it off yet.

After checking the plates this morning there is an area where the emulsion is very soft, one on each of the plates. The soft area is a swelling in the emulsion. It still holds detail but it sits just proud of the rest of the dried emulsion. It is soft enough to leave an impression when I touch it. The area is not connected with the minor edge frilling but is separate.

Not sure what to think of it or identify the cause. It is exposed, developed and fixed emulsion but it is soft and slight swollen up from the glass. Perhaps the hardener did not work in these sections?

Some details.
Developer is Legacy Pro L110 dilution b. This is a rebranding of HC110 by Freestyle. (6 minutes 15 seconds)
Stop is dilute vinegar. (1 minute)
Fixer is home mixed hypo with Legacy Pro hardener added in the tray. (4 minutes)
All chemicals mixed using distilled water.
Washed with gently flowing tap water. (6 minutes)
Temperatures ranged from 64F (developer) to 68F (wash water)
Trays are Paterson 8x10 plastic trays.
Agitation provided by slightly pushing the trays themselves at 30 second intervals.
Plates were moved only to transfer between trays.
Plates were held by edges.

Nodda Duma

24-Jan-2018, 11:29

I saw your pic and that's a great result. Your description of the soft area sounds like the emulsion has yet to dry fully. If the plate sits flat without circulating air, the emulsion can take quite some time to fully dry out (overnight isn't unusual). When I set plates out to dry after coating or after developing, I'll put a small fan on them at a low setting ... just to get some circulation. Humidity and temperature play a role as well.

That's just a guess without seeing it, but that's what it sounds like especially if they are all like that.

AuditorOne

24-Jan-2018, 11:44

Thanks John.

It is certainly possible that they did not get enough dry down time. They did sit overnight and I rested them at an angle so both sides got air but the room they were in is not directly heated so it can get down to 50F or lower at night. I'll let the next couple dry a bit longer to be sure.

EDIT - That is exactly what happened. I went and pulled the plates out of their storage sleeves and the swelling is gone. A bit more dry time is all that is needed.

Randy

24-Jan-2018, 15:42

No it was from the emulsion lifting during the development process. I don't touch the emulsion when it's wet..Jason, I didn't know if we should ask technical questions in the image thread, so I will ask here - Randy Moe asked about emulsion curl on the edge, and asked if it was from your fingers - you respond above. My question is - do you touch the edge of the plate at any point after you put it in the developer?
I think that is when I had the problem with my first (and only attempt so far) plate development - after it had been in the developer for a couple minutes, and I was gently rocking the tray, every minute, I put my finger in and lifted (by the edge) one side to get a better look - and at that point, the emulsion on that whole corner floated away from the glass.
So, do you not touch the edges of the plate at all during any of the process? And if not, how do you move the plate from tray to tray during the process...if you use trays...?

Nodda Duma

24-Jan-2018, 16:40

I slip my finger or fingernail under the plate and lift up one edge. Then I gently grasp by the other edges, lift out of the tray, let it drain, and set it in the next.

I'm not near any glass but let me demonstrate with this Papa Ginos rewards card.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180124/908abf161acb97e303b7171e43e07a59.jpg

Nodda Duma

24-Jan-2018, 22:57

When you go to shoot these plates, you might be using a camera with the US shutter system.

Here is a conversion for the different systems from that era converted to f/#. From https://randcollins.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/diaphragmnumbers.gif

Tin Can

26-Jan-2018, 22:17

1/4 Plate update. Got a 10 pack today from J.Lane. They are a bit big, I couldn't get them into 2 different make 1/4 plate glass plate holders. Both holders had removable NOS KODAK 3-1/4 X 4-1/4 Film sheaths that fit in and come out fairly easily. So I put them away. One holder was a wood DDS LN. The other Ikon Trona 212 1/4 Plate USA model.

Then I opened a NOS Stanley 1/4 Plate box and the first one dropped into the tightest holder which was a Trona SDS.

Yours were close Jason, but a bit wide and maybe longer. I didn't measure any plates as I didn't want to waste any.

Tomorrow i'll shoot, develop the Stanley plate and measure it.

Here's a pic of the old Stanley box. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?143889-Stanley-Dry-Plates&p=1426857&viewfull=1#post1426857

Nodda Duma

26-Jan-2018, 23:42

Well that's disappointing. Perhaps your holders are for tintype quarter plates, which are 3 1/8 x 4 1/8 and smaller than glass quarter plate at 3 1/4 x 4 1/4.

Steven Tribe

27-Jan-2018, 02:19

Well we are certainly getting a lot of extra information about the range of the smaller sized plate dimensions - back then!
I suppose the same situation may exist with 1/2 plate sizes, some of which may have been a cabinet size!

Tin Can

27-Jan-2018, 04:17

How do you explain 3-1/4 x 4-1/4 Kodak Film Sheaths fitting in my holders?

Well that's disappointing. Perhaps your holders are for tintype quarter plates, which are 3 1/8 x 4 1/8 and smaller than glass quarter plate at 3 1/4 x 4 1/4.

Nodda Duma

27-Jan-2018, 05:03

That's just 2am speculation while I await measurements of the Stanley plate and holder.

7am speculation is that the difference is slight and the holder mount itself is exactly 3 1/4 x 5 1/4, since from another post your Kodak sheaths are undersized. I've sent 1/4" plates out before with no issues, so there was apparently variation in plate holders in this size as well. I should be able to trim a little bit off each plate to ensure fit, at least.

Steven is right about getting actual working info!

Steven Tribe

27-Jan-2018, 06:14

Tin Can

27-Jan-2018, 06:23

I think you need to measure a variety of holders. Most factories use ‘go no go’ jigs in QC.
I spent my working life in Automotive engine aftermarket product testing. We bought 1000’s of complete engines, even entire wrecked cars to reverse engineer gaskets and check fit. We had 800 crates in storage of sample engines. As Tier 1 OEM big 3 supplier we often had to adapt to recalls.

Any field complaint was addressed by physical examination in the factory.

I realize you are one person doing this part time.

Perhaps some of us could ship you holders for direct measurement and in house fit.

I found I have 4 more NOS plate holders for Mamiya Press camera a ‘6x9’ 2x3.

I can supply a variety of holders on a temporary basis.

That's just 2am speculation while I await measurements of the Stanley plate and holder.

7am speculation is that the difference is slight and the holder mount itself is exactly 3 1/4 x 5 1/4, since from another post your Kodak sheaths are undersized.

Steven is right about getting actual working info!

jnantz

27-Jan-2018, 07:44

First 4x5 glass plate negative.

Wanderlust Travelwide, SK Angulon 90/6.8, 1 second at f16.
174014

really beautiful !!

I think you need to measure a variety of holders. Most factories use ‘go no go’ jigs in QC.
I spent my working life in Automotive engine aftermarket product testing. We bought 1000’s of complete engines, even entire wrecked cars to reverse engineer gaskets and check fit. We had 800 crates in storage of sample engines. As Tier 1 OEM big 3 supplier we often had to adapt to recalls.

Any field complaint was addressed by physical examination in the factory.

I realize you are one person doing this part time.

Perhaps some of us could ship you holders for direct measurement and in house fit.

I found I have 4 more NOS plate holders for Mamiya Press camera a ‘6x9’ 2x3.

I can supply a variety of holders on a temporary basis.

i hate to suggest this .. sizes that are't run of the mill like 4x5-8x10 &c
how about asking the customer to send THEIR septum or plate holder
and you custom make for those orders... seems it would be easier than
searching and hoping that everyone's plate holders / septum holders
are the same, or almost the same size .. kind of a PITA to have it sent
and mail it back but at least you know they will fit ...

Nodda Duma

27-Jan-2018, 08:24

This is kind of the wrong thread for a discussion of correcting plate fit, but here are a couple of thoughts.

1) As an engineer, I'm familiar with the use of jigs (the correct term is a functional gage but I tend to call them jigs). A jig would be appropriate if I controlled the design and production of all quarter plate holders, but I don't. Imagine if I were to have fabricated a jig based on the Linhof quarter plate holder and Seneca plate holders that I had used to cut the quarter plates I sent you. The plates would still not fit your holder.

2) Custom-cutting plates for each customer's holder is an unrealistic solution which would essentially double the costs of the plates and cause a logistical nightmare. I can't ask people to risk having their holders damaged or lost in the mail, nor is there a need for me to personally measure them when rulers, verniers, etc., are standardized and in wide-spread use.

The practical solution is to undersize the plates like I'm doing for 4x5, and the only question is by how much. In my judgement, I should dimension the plates the same as the Kodak film sheath or the Stanley dry plates, which the manufacturers of holders of the time would have ensured they could accept. That's the closest to a "jig" that I can reasonably get to.

I just need their measurements.

I also did a test-cut this morning of several 1/4" plates that I have on-hand, and determined I can trim off as little as 0.050" to salvage already coated plates.

Randy, it would be great if you could send me a mix of holders to measure. When you do, send your quarter plates back with and I'll fix them / replace them (depending on how much I would need to trim them).

-Jason

P.S. Randy, I swear you've had the worst luck with plates fitting. I'm sorry for that. I'm starting to think that if my plates fit the holders in your collection then they'll fit every holder in the world.

Nodda Duma

27-Jan-2018, 15:34

Thanks, Steven. That's great to share.

Emulsion Batch #6 is officially used up. Batch #7 is ripening now. It will set overnight and I will finish it up tomorrow. I stretched out the precipitation and ripening, so maybe it will be around ASA 4. I will know when I test.

barnacle

27-Jan-2018, 15:41

Jason, another data point for you: this is for the wooden OEM plate holders supplied with a 1907 or thereabouts Sanderson Junior 1/4 plate:

Maximum aperture width is 83.3mm wide by 106.5mm; the film inserts are 82.5mm by 107.2mm and 1.6mm thick. A lot less 'hook under' for the outboard end of the plate, though there's about another mm (difficult to measure) wherein the insert (and presumably a plate) can be fitted. So the length could be up to about 108mm, I guess, but they wouldn't stay in the holders if they were shorter.

Neil

(imperial equivalents: 83.3mm = 3.27 inch, 106.5mm = 4.192 inch, 82.5mm = 3.248mm, 107.2mm = 4.22" (which makes me wonder about the size of 1/4 plate film).

barnacle

27-Jan-2018, 15:53

Damnit, just realised I posted some 1/4 plate dimensions for you in the images thread (where you have the discussion with Randy Moe) rather than here where I should have... perhaps one of the moderators might like to move the post?

Neil

Tin Can

27-Jan-2018, 15:58

OK perhaps we need thread consolidation.

I am losing track of what is where.

We now have 4 threads for this topic. this thread which is not correct for discusion of size.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?143905-Newly-Made-Dry-Plates-and-NOS-as-well-all-sizes

Then to thread offering new plates for sale.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?143433-Fresh-dry-plates-in-a-variety-of-sizes

and 2 more threads where images belong.

Nodda Duma

27-Jan-2018, 22:13

I saw your measurements. Thank you for taking the time to do so.

Steven Tribe

28-Jan-2018, 01:58

It is obvious that there will be a lot of to and fro-ing between this thread and the image thread - and with the "other format images" thread - when that gets started. But that is no real problem. I think there will be a lot of 1/4 plate postings eventually and there are a lot of 9x12cm cameras in use in Europe which just come under the 4x5" restriction!

Tin Can

28-Jan-2018, 08:05

Stanley Dry Plates Instruction included in 1897 1/4 Dry Plates

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4652/24978217227_db2f8d8365_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/E4eTKH)Stanley 1-4 plate NOS (https://flic.kr/p/E4eTKH) by moe.randy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4695/39914505722_96b7934879_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/23P7gX9)1887 Stanley 1-4 Dry Plates 1 (https://flic.kr/p/23P7gX9) by moe.randy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4754/39048344845_086e436882_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/22uyYuV)1887 Stanley 1-4 Dry Plates 2-3 (https://flic.kr/p/22uyYuV) by moe.randy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4661/39048344365_c58c9737d3_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/22uyYmD)1887 Stanley 1-4 Dry Plates 4 (https://flic.kr/p/22uyYmD) by moe.randy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

barnacle

28-Jan-2018, 11:20

My bad, Randy - I thought I was in the other thread...

Neil

Tin Can

28-Jan-2018, 11:25

My bad, Randy - I thought I was in the other thread...

Neil

All good Neil. I don't make any rules here.

And thanks for posting!

Oren Grad

28-Jan-2018, 11:45

As I posted in the image-sharing thread:

I've moved a block of posts about plate sizes to the "New Products" thread.

This is a wonderful initiative and we wish it all success. But in the criteria that we use for managing the Forum these plates are not fundamentally different from sheet film. So let's please stick to our established rules - image threads, segregated by 4x5 or larger (LF) vs smaller than that (everything else), for pictures and discussion closely linked to the pictures; technical threads for discussion of technical issues in exposure, processing and printing of the plates; and the New Products thread for discussion of product specifications, availability, etc.

Thanks.

Tin Can

28-Jan-2018, 11:59

A couple of my Ilford NOS lantern slides have the original packing around the box and enclosed were the instructions and emulsion details which may (or may not) be helpful. The development times match quite closely the minutes I have been using in the "dark

Steven, Thanks for posting the data sheets. I cannot read these on my iPhone SE and even this 24" monitor has me squinting close to the screen.

That's why I posted my Stanley Dry Plates Data sheets larger. I shot mine using the above bargain priced phone.

I made mine too big. :)

Nodda Duma

29-Jan-2018, 10:33

I started a group on facebook so folks (not just on this forum) can share results and information on using these dry plates. It should be a little easier to share info than through the Pictoriographica page I set up (I would have to micromanage the page for it to be as effective as creating a group).

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1428512583937923/

Tin Can

29-Jan-2018, 10:57

Nodda Duma

29-Jan-2018, 11:26

I posted your Etsy link on FB Graflex Camera Group yesterday. At least one person was waiting for delivery.

Awesome. Unless I shipped out their order today, they will get plates coated with the new emulsion batch (# 007).

AuditorOne

30-Jan-2018, 01:02

Looking to pick up some 5x7 plates but your store wouldn't let me order. Any idea when they will be back in stock?

Nodda Duma

30-Jan-2018, 03:43

Give me a couple days. Working through a backlog right now.

AuditorOne

30-Jan-2018, 10:40

Give me a couple days. Working through a backlog right now.

Thanks Jason. Patiently waiting. :D

Steven Tribe

31-Jan-2018, 09:38

I have wondering about packaging (My plates are still in limbo in Denmark) and how to store the exposed NOS plates I have here in Spain!

I assume that Ilford must have lots of experience of how to pack plates - well at least by 1956 which the date of the lantern slides I am making here. Perhaps Ilford's way of doing it was standard industry practice?

Ilford sold only even numbers and the plates were paired and wrapped in back paper. Emulsion sides were placed inwards and had two edge white carboard folded edges to project the glass to some extent. The emulsion sides don't stick together - even after 65 years. I think this is probably a good way of storing these plates when they have dried too. The only disadvantage I have found is that during loading in a tent/bag the corner pieces always seem to finish up lying on the open book holder.

Otherwise, I find loading plates a good deal easier than "bendy" sheet film and the emulsion side is known as these are always the "inside" side.

Tin Can

31-Jan-2018, 11:12

I thought I posted this, but cannot find it. Here are the 1895 Kodak 5X7 Glass plates top layer packing method. In a 10 pack, there was the high-quality black paper on top of each emulsion. The top 2 were face to face with the pictured plasticized paper clips, no paper. So the first one on top was facing down, the only one thus so.

I mention the Kodak interleaving paper as high quality as there was no dust inside the sealed packet. The 1897 1/4 plate Stanley Dry Plates did not have the clip and it felt very dusty in there and later after processing, I did see a lot of dust in develeoped emusion and worse. Meaning small and large pinholes.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4650/39297870704_bc2663a5f3.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/22SBRQU)Kodak 5X7 Plate clips (https://flic.kr/p/22SBRQU) by moe.randy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

In LFPF files are my 2013 Dry Plate experiments with an opened packet. Here is the thread.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?103310-Shooting-Kodak-anti-Halo-Ortho-plates-NOS-LOL&p=1026142&viewfull=1#post1026142

Nodda Duma

31-Jan-2018, 12:16

Those look familiar..same scheme as in my box of Kodak plates.

I'm not a fan for my plates, as the imperfections from hand-coating can scratch the other plate's emulsion. I put them all facing forward with paper between each. It makes more sense to do it that way based on my experience from the optics world.

ghostcount

1-Feb-2018, 11:54

Many thanks to Jason for making these fine plates available to us.

https://youtu.be/5uIVOOfVys4

Enjoy!

Tin Can

1-Feb-2018, 12:24

Very well done demonstration and video!

That's the way you do it.

Nice plates Jason.

Tin Can

1-Feb-2018, 20:47

Jason, I got your replacement 1/4 Dry Plates today. The new size fits perfectly in both my all metal Ikon Trona 212 1/4 Plate USA Spec German Camera SSD holder and my Wood DDS USA 1/4 Plate holder. I use 1/4 Plate to denote 3-1/4 X 4-1/4 inch as is common practice.

The fit in both is exactly the same. Both use sliding steel hooks to hold down the plate with spring steel pressure.

Great job!

Thank you!

This is kind of the wrong thread for a discussion of correcting plate fit, but here are a couple of thoughts.

1) As an engineer, I'm familiar with the use of jigs (the correct term is a functional gage but I tend to call them jigs). A jig would be appropriate if I controlled the design and production of all quarter plate holders, but I don't. Imagine if I were to have fabricated a jig based on the Linhof quarter plate holder and Seneca plate holders that I had used to cut the quarter plates I sent you. The plates would still not fit your holder.

2) Custom-cutting plates for each customer's holder is an unrealistic solution which would essentially double the costs of the plates and cause a logistical nightmare. I can't ask people to risk having their holders damaged or lost in the mail, nor is there a need for me to personally measure them when rulers, verniers, etc., are standardized and in wide-spread use.

The practical solution is to undersize the plates like I'm doing for 4x5, and the only question is by how much. In my judgement, I should dimension the plates the same as the Kodak film sheath or the Stanley dry plates, which the manufacturers of holders of the time would have ensured they could accept. That's the closest to a "jig" that I can reasonably get to.

I just need their measurements.

I also did a test-cut this morning of several 1/4" plates that I have on-hand, and determined I can trim off as little as 0.050" to salvage already coated plates.

Randy, it would be great if you could send me a mix of holders to measure. When you do, send your quarter plates back with and I'll fix them / replace them (depending on how much I would need to trim them).

-Jason

P.S. Randy, I swear you've had the worst luck with plates fitting. I'm sorry for that. I'm starting to think that if my plates fit the holders in your collection then they'll fit every holder in the world.

Roger Thoms

1-Feb-2018, 21:52

Anyone process these in Pyrocat HD? Just got my 5x7 plates and the only developer I have on hand is Pyrocat. Seems like the hardening effect might be good.

Roger

Nodda Duma

2-Feb-2018, 07:30

The plates are inherently high contrast, so you want to use a dilution like 1:1:100... but I think the development times are going to be really long .. so long I worry about what it does to the emulsion.

Do you have print developer? Dektol will work. I developed a plate in PolymaxT earlier this week just because it was in the developing tray. The plate came out fine and the PolymaxT actually helped control the contrast. So I would try a print developer and just develop by inspection under safelight.

-Jason

Tin Can

2-Feb-2018, 08:32

Anyone process these in Pyrocat HD? Just got my 5x7 plates and the only developer I have on hand is Pyrocat. Seems like the hardening effect might be good.

Roger
.
Please try it. I am ordering PF chems for Pyrocat HDC. But I won't be able to mix any until I find my itty bitty digital scale and mixing hotplate. The horrors of moving with so many boxes.

Roger Thoms

4-Feb-2018, 11:48

Jason, Randy, thanks for the replies. I went ahead and ordered HC-110, may try Pyrocat, but figured I’d start out with the recommended developer first. Keep it simple, right. Now to dig up my NOS 5x7 plate holders that were sold to as film holders and start shooting.

Roger

Peter De Smidt

4-Feb-2018, 15:39

.
Please try it. I am ordering PF chems for Pyrocat HDC. But I won't be able to mix any until I find my itty bitty digital scale and mixing hotplate. The horrors of moving with so many boxes.

By it pre-mixed in glycol? It lasts indefinitely that way, and you don't have to deal with powdered pyro.

Tin Can

4-Feb-2018, 17:15

By it pre-mixed in glycol? It lasts indefinitely that way, and you don't have to deal with powdered pyro.

I know that option is available. I want to mix my own. Now that I have a shed, I can mix safely there. I think the tanning feature of Pyro may be good for dry glass plate.

I tried 510 Pyro on 35mm, very interesting. Read the old threads. Many times. Sandy won me over simply by logic. I know it will work for me on film.

I need a big supply as once I get the Gas Burst system back up, I use 4 liters per run. And I'm cheap, the cost is good. Also it's time for me to add to my 'only Rodinol' developer stable after 7 years of loyalty.

I took to method everyone's advice to stick to one set of variables.

But Pyro waits a month for next paycheck as I just stretched my budget with an Engel refrigerator. It's for the mobile darkroom/RV/cargo trailer.

HDC is made with Glycol

Nodda Duma

17-Feb-2018, 20:21

Any interest in lantern slides, 3 1/4" x 3 1/4"? I have a handful - 10 - of glass that size left over from cutting whole plates and half plates that I could coat if someone wants them.

Roger Thoms

19-Feb-2018, 19:30

Processed my first 4 plates, 5x7, went ahead and used HC-110, dilution B for 5 minutes. 2 of the plates look awesome and 2 are very contrasty. Bright sun and trees, go figure. :) Can't wait to print them, maybe next weekend. Also need to set up my scanner, been dragging my feet on that, but it would be nice to share some images.

Might add that the plates fit perfectly in my Kodak (manufactured by Graflex) plate holders. These are the late model black one with the aluminum light trap covers. I bought 4 of them a while back thinking the were film holders. The cool thing is that I went to a local store last weekend and found one more. So now I have a nice set of 5 matching holders which is great, since the 5x7 plates come in boxes of 10.

I'm also digging the ISO 2 rating, makes it really easy to shoot barrel lenses.

Roger

Nodda Duma

20-Feb-2018, 03:27

That's great!

To cut the contrast you can try a couple of things: Back off on agitation, expose at ISO 3 or 4 and develop for 7-10 minutes instead of 5, or try a lower contrast developer and develop to inspection.

Thanks for the report!

Jason

redrockcoulee

20-Feb-2018, 20:43

Jason, I have a question about shippibg. Are your rates correct as it would cost be I think it is 6 tines as much to have it shipped to Canada then just across the border in the States. It is the whole plates I am wondering about.

If those shipping rates are correct I will need to wait under May when we are dipping down to pick up some wet plate supplies and some film

Ivan

Nodda Duma

21-Feb-2018, 08:55

Hi Ivan,

First and foremost thank you for the interest!

I've never wanted these to cost more than they have to be..I worry about spending money just as much as anybody else, and getting your last dollar isn't my goal. So I spent quite a bit of time researching and comparing international shipping costs while balancing against the need to ensure the plates arrive intact. Speaking as an optical engineer with hard-earned experience shipping delicate optics, the less time in the hands of our beloved postal workers, the better. Sending broken plates isn't my goal, either.

Shipping via USPS International Priority for these size and weight packages is as competitive as I can find, even when not considering the trade-off with minimizing shipping time. If I remember correctly, the cost to Canada works out to about US$35 shipping for whole plate. First class shaves a few bucks but doubling the shipping time just increases risk of damage. While the postal service may eventually refund a damage claim, broken plates mean I just lost an evening's worth of effort to a postal worker's apathy, and a paying customer doesn't have plates to try out. It's something I prefer to avoid. So far the track record for shipping plates -- internationally as well as domestic -- is really good.

That said, I want to make it as easy on your wallet as I can. I encourage you to explore shipping rates for a 2 1/2 lb package sized 9"x11"x4" shipped from US zip code 03033 and if you find a lower rate with a method that you're happy with (other than DHL which I refuse to use), send me a link and I'll be more than happy to send them using your preferred method.

Higher shipping costs to Canada isn't unique to my plates: If you want lower shipping costs from the US then you have to join the Union as state #51. Otherwise everything has to go through customs and that costs $$. I could get in contact with a Canadian photography supplier and sell through them, but they would just add the shipping/customs cost to the retail price so you're still paying for it.

Regards,
Jason

redrockcoulee

21-Feb-2018, 12:22