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Dikran
27-Dec-2017, 17:20
"Swift and Son London, Universal Paragon No.2 f:5,65"
Hello,
I just bought this ( Petzval ) lens and would like to know more about it...
Best
Peter

Andrew Plume
28-Dec-2017, 02:21
Hello Peter

Unless I'm way off, I'm pretty sure that this isn't a Petzval, sorry - Steven Tribe is the one who will confirm, I'm sure

Andrew

Steven Tribe
28-Dec-2017, 04:26
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?127339-Swift-amp-Son-Paragon-No-4-Lens-question


I did make a long reply here which wasn't auto saved! I think it is a Petzval, although the rear cell appears to be "sealed" which makes for really difficult cleaning.

In the 1890's, slower/lighter Petzvals were popular for home portraiture.

Later Petzvals are most often without brass sleeves.
Here is one with similar proportions to yours from Roussel et Berteau.


Later: The OP has mentioned an air gap between the two lenses in the rear cell in a PM which excludes a RR/Aplanat!

Steven Tribe
28-Dec-2017, 05:18
Looking at the Swift catalogue in the previous thread about the Paragon, I am amazed he was able to offer this is quite enormous sizes - lenses up to 7" inches in diameter.

Obviously not of Swift manufacture, so probably from one of the few makers in Paris who could manage the manufacture without huge investment in production facilities? I'll check some french makers to see if there is a Petzval series which matches up to the Swift list.

Just to put this into some kind of perspective.

Dallmeyer's D series (F6) corresponds very closely with data for the Swift list (F6 Petzval compared with F5.56 for Swift). They stopped at the 6" lens size!

I have only found Gasc et Charconnet making a 7" lens (listed as a standard product) at the moment - and only as a simple achromat, although they used the same achromat production in their Petzval series.

Andrew Plume
28-Dec-2017, 06:33
I'm very happy that I was wrong.................

Andrew

Steven Tribe
28-Dec-2017, 06:40
But the OP (and other owners of the Universal Paragon) are even happier!

Looking at details in the 2015 thread, I can see a marking that suggest a screw thread between what looks like two separate sections in the rear cell. A system to ensure the air space between the two lenses is correct?

lucaas
28-Dec-2017, 16:17
I have only found Gasc et Charconnet making a 7" lens (listed as a standard product) at the moment - and only as a simple achromat, although they used the same achromat production in their Petzval series.
Hi Steven, in A. Charconnet & A. Laverne catalog, they made some cone portrait lens with 7" glass. The Serie 4 lens mentioned at the bottom of table was the simple achromat lens.
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Steven Tribe
28-Dec-2017, 17:01
Yes, I know. But I also deduced that the achromat used in their landscape series is exactly the same lens that is the front achromat in one of their Petzval series. All lens diameters match! I also have a french landscape and petzval from another maker (Lerebours, I think) with a similar complete match.

Well done - It looks like we now have found where Swift got his Universal lens from!

Later: Although this seems like a source/match with the Swift Universal Petzval, there are some problems! The Gasc et Charconnet/Laverne series 2 Petzvals are much faster and have the so-called "cone" arrangement - where the rear lenses have a larger diameter than the front achromat. But they would crtainly have experience in making Petzvals of this size and had sources for the chunks of optical glass.

Dikran
6-Feb-2018, 06:12
"Swift and Son London, Universal Paragon No.2 f:5,65"
... just a little update with pictures ...

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Jody_S
6-Feb-2018, 10:47
"Swift and Son London, Universal Paragon No.2 f:5,65"
... just a little update with pictures ...

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174442

I have a similar but unbranded/unmarked Petzval that I was looking for info on, though I thought my calculations placed it at f8. I will dig it out and compare to your photos, I expect it is also a G&C.

karl french
19-Mar-2019, 09:48
As luck would have it, this very lens appeared on ebay. It's now on it's way to me. Based on the additional pictures, I would say this is actually a late Dallmeyer 3D. Both Ross and Dallmeyer "manufactured for the trade." Based on the rear diffusion pin and subtle notches on the rear cell, I'd say very Dallmeyer. Comparing the rear barrel of this lens to the 3D they seem identical. The flange position is just moved forward.

I hope to confirm once it's in hand.

188944

Page 77 below shows the Universal Paragon to have the Dallmeyer layout of rear elements.

http://www.piercevaubel.com/cam/catalogs/1892scovill&adamslp398.htm

Steven Tribe
19-Mar-2019, 13:56
Perhaps Ross, but not Dallmeyer!

There were plenty of "Dallmeyer Patent Rear Petzval" makers by the time that Swift sold this. Ross did it and sold under their own name. And some French makers and even used "Dallmeyer system" in their advertising.

We must remember that the patent protection period was quite short at this time. This is perhaps why Dallmeyer registered a second patent around the turn of the century (front turn adjustment) to regain a degree of exclusiveness.

It will be fun to see if the lens edges give some clues as to origin!

karl french
19-Mar-2019, 14:35
Yes, I'm quite curious to see if the glass is rolled into the mounts like a Dallmeyer or held in with threaded retainers. Though most of the off brand petzvals I have don't have any indication of who the actual maker was.

I think there are Fallowfields petzvals out there that are actually Dallmeyer Quick Acting 2B lenses. I've seen more that one that was indistinguishable from the Dallmeyer other than the engraving.