Help With Cokin Filters...Or Filters In General

[appletree]

Hi all,
I leave in 6 weeks for my honeymoon. I would like to find a set of basic filters for my Chamonix 045N-2 4x5 camera. I think I am toting it and my Leica M2.
I was considering a Cokin Z-Pro holder with some decent glass/whatever.

Bonus is if any of this setup can be used for my Leica M2 or Hassie 500C/M. (I own a few filters for my 500C/M lenses).

Owned Lenses:

Schneider Symmar-S 210mm -- 77mm accessory size?
Nikon Nikkor SW 90mm -- 67mm accessory size?
Hasselblad 80mm CF (or maybe it's Zeiss Planar T*?)
Hasselblad 150mm CF
Leica Summicron Dual Range 50mm


Questions I have:

Which holder would I need? I seem some as 77mm and some at 100mm? Is the Z-Pro only one size?
Do I then use adapter rings to attach the above holder to my various lenses?
I guess any rectangle filter will work? As long as it is 100mm wide? Or whatever fits the holder.
Any resources you recommend for buying a few filters? New and/or used. I was gonna try on APUG, but I have to be a paying member or something.
Which filters do you recommend. Mostly close ups or landscapes, occasionally portraits (but probably don't need filters for this)
To the above, I am thinking a more basic set up. Perhaps....minimum of orange full, orange grad??, maybe a yellow?, a little ND stop, big ND stop, grad ND, a polarizer...??? Uh, so may options.
Brands you recommend to search for?
Brands to stay away from?


Thanks for your help/assistance!

[xkaes]

Cokin makes four sizes: A, P, Z, and another larger size. I use the P system, and my lenses are all 77mm. The larger sizes will work on super-wide lenses, or larger filter thread sizes -- but also cost much more. The filters are rectangular but rotate. You need a simple adapter -- more than one if you have more than one filter size. You can get filter holders that hold from one to three filters. The ones that hold more are likely to cause vignetting on wide lenses, like a 90mm.

What filters you get is a personal choice -- there are TONS of them. The filters are easier to scratch than glass, so protect them very well.

[appletree]

Thanks for the information, that is very helpful.

[tgtaylor]

When I moved into LF from the Pentax 67II, I switched from the Cokin P system to the Z-Pro which would accommodate the larger lens. With the holder I choose the largest adapter ring then available (82mm) and step-up rings from the smallest lens (49mm) to the next smallest ...up to finally 82mm. That way I can travel with all the step-up rings already connected to the holder and choose according to the lens I decide to use. That was nothing is forgotten or misplaced and ready to use. I keep the holder with rings mounted in a Lee case which I found used for $5 or so. For filters I use Cokin resin filters for B&W, CP and IR (they are the best deal out there) and Lee or HiTech resins for ND/Grads. I further switched to Schneider and Formatt glass CP, UV, and ND/Grad. All fit in the Z-Pro holder and a 95mm adaptor is now available for the 300mm Nikkor f5.6 and 400mm Pentax 67.

Thomas

[appletree]

Thanks for the information Thomas. Very helpful to know your setup/system.

[appletree]

Any additional comments on my above questions? You all use eBay? Seems like Cokin and Lee/HiTech are good. Schneider and Formatt glass? Resin vs glass? Resin I assume is thick plastic?
CP? Color Positive? IR? Infrared?

[xkaes]

I've never seen glass filters for the Cokin system, but I don't doubt that someone makes(d) some. The problem with glass would be cost, weight, and breakage, but resin/plastic is much easier to scratch.

Wherever you buy, you can make single purchases or sets which are a much better deal. But with sets you need to do more shopping around because there are a ton of kits to compare and figure out which is best for you. Many kits come with nice pouches for easy carrying/protection.

[appletree]

Ok, thanks again for the info. Yes, I am fine with resin. I am also fine with middle of the pack quality. Don't need the best made ever nor the walmart line. I don't mind investing a little, but with SO many options all this advice is helpful.

Anyone have recommendations on the filters you wouldn't leave home without? Orange, Yellow, NDs? Maybe a polarizer? Is a polarizer even a think for rectangle filters like this? Don't you have to rotate two pieces independent of each other to get the affect needed?
As you can see, I am not extremely versed on filters in general.

Thanks.

[xkaes]

All of my main filters are round, multi-coated glass -- because the are used/abused the most. The main problem for me with the Cokin system is the holder is likely to cause vignetting with wide lenses -- which I use a lot. That is much less of an issue with screw-in filters.

[appletree]

Understood. I am set on the system though...well, crap, I think I am. I can't keep changing up since their are so many pros/cons to every system. I have to make a decision and just lock in especially since I need (want) to buy some in the next 4-6 weeks.
That said, I appreciate your input on the whole matter, so thanks a lot!

The main reason to go with a square/rectangle system is the versatility. Both my LF lenses are different sizes. And if I ever pick up a 150mm lens it too will probably be different. I really don't want to have 12 sets of filters if I don't have too.

At the end of the day I just want the easiest/most reliable/realistic/practical/basic filter set up for my 4x5 camera system. The problem is about 12000 people designed their own thing in 4000 different options/colors/material/etc. No wonder the camera store in town that closed down had an entire filing cabinet or two full of filters.

[xkaes]

I have lots of lenses and they all have different filter sizes. I standardized on the largest, 77mm, and got step up rings (the smallest is 40.5mm) for all the rest. All of my round glass filters are 77mm. My Cokin system has a 77mm adapter. So I have a set of frequently used 77mm glass filters, and a set of Cokin P filters adapted to 77mm. Not too complicated.

[appletree]

Interesting, doesn't seem as bad as I am thinking. Thanks again for the information.
Maybe I just grab some 77mm filters for now and a step up ring from 67 to 77. Hmm.

[appletree]

Oh, I guess this is part of the pros/cons. With circular screw on filters you lose the ability to use graduated filters. So for landscape stuff (most of what I will be shooting in NZ) the Cokin setup is kinda nice.
Ugh...maybe I just need to decide. Maybe the problem is me. **thinks to one's self**

[xkaes]

It's not an "either or", fork-in-the-road situation. One of the reasons I use the Cokin system is for the graduated filters. That's why I have both round filters and Cokin filters. But I don't have any filters that are the same in either set.

And if 67mm is your widest lens, there may not be a point in moving up to 77mm.

[appletree]

It's not an "either or", fork-in-the-road situation. One of the reasons I use the Cokin system is for the graduated filters. That's why I have both round filters and Cokin filters. But I don't have any filters that are the same in either set.

And if 67mm is your widest lens, there may not be a point in moving up to 77mm.

Ahh, thanks. My widest lens is 77mm.

[appletree]

And I understand there is value to having both. I think I eventually will. What I need to decide on is what system to I dive into for now that will get me by.
That way I can get the holder/step up rings I need and start looking on eBay for filters (B+W, Formatt, Lee, Singh Ray, Schneider all seem to be fine).

My gut reaction is to get a yellow, orange, ND (light), ND (dark), and maybe a polarizer. A polarizer can be used with color or b&w?? And for cutting down reflections and such?

[xkaes]

That sounds like a fine starting set-up. All those are in mine, but because I use those a lot, I have them all in round glass. As to which brand(s) to choose, you'll get a million opinions. Many of mine are Hoya multi-coated, but I have lots of others, as well, from Minolta to B+H. Since 77mm round glass is not cheap, you can save a lot by buying used.

And yes, a polarizer is fine in B&W or color.

[appletree]

Ugh. I still haven't made up my damn mind. I think I am just going to spring for the Cokin system. One of em...I think P system or Z-Pro (supposedly the holder is much better and stays on/etc.) is what I need. That and some filters.
Since it's the 11th hour (sort of...we leave in 3 1/2 weeks) I will just get some stuff off eBay and be done with it haha.

Thanks again for the advice.

[Alan Gales]

Anyone have recommendations on the filters you wouldn't leave home without? Orange, Yellow, NDs? Maybe a polarizer? Is a polarizer even a think for rectangle filters like this? Don't you have to rotate two pieces independent of each other to get the affect needed?
As you can see, I am not extremely versed on filters in general.

Thanks.


Austin, here you go. https://www.amazon.com/Cokin-P164-Circular-Polarizer-Filter/dp/B0006ZSR40

If you want one I would look at Ebay for a used one and save some money. I think it just slides into their holder. Yes, it's two pieces of glass. One spins to get the effect you want. I used to use Cokin filters for 35mm but I had a regular polarizer. A polarizer is one filter that I won't be without even if I shoot digital.

[Alan Gales]

I'd look at Ebay for a used one and save some money. I think it just slides into their holder. Yes, it's two pieces of glass. One spins to get the effect you want. I used to use Cokin filters for 35mm but I had a regular polarizer. A polarizer is one filter that I won't be without even if I shoot digital.

Here are some color filter examples for b&w. http://www.photographymad.com/pages/view/using-coloured-filters-in-black-and-white-photography

ND's are great for when you need them. Graduated ND's can come in handy too. I like a slight soft focus filter sometimes for when I want to soften a portrait a little. /QUOTE]

[appletree]

I'd look at Ebay for a used one and save some money. I think it just slides into their holder. Yes, it's two pieces of glass. One spins to get the effect you want. I used to use Cokin filters for 35mm but I had a regular polarizer. A polarizer is one filter that I won't be without even if I shoot digital.

Here are some color filter examples for b&w. http://www.photographymad.com/pages/view/using-coloured-filters-in-black-and-white-photography

ND's are great for when you need them. Graduated ND's can come in handy too. I like a slight soft focus filter sometimes for when I want to soften a portrait a little. /QUOTE]

Thanks Alan for all the info. I got a Z-Pro holder for 15 bucks!!! Just looking for filters now on eBay.
Seems like searching for 4x6 at first was hindering the results. Tried 4x5.65 and over 600 results.

[appletree]

I am sorry I am such a mess.
Can someone help me decide a few things, please?

First searching for these things on eBay is a pain (and I'm a youngin'). Search terms are so many options...ND or neutral density, 100, 100mm, 4x6, 4x4, 100x150, etc etc etc.

Anyway.....OK. Picked up a Formatt Hitech 1.2 grad Soft Edge for 20 bucks. If I grab a 0.6 grad Soft Edge...then for yellow and orange I guess I don't need grads? And go with 4x4s for those are fine. Anything that is full covering a 4x4 is just fine. And if I need to I just move half of it out of the image. Ez Pz. Am I thinking of this right?

And I need to get adapter rings. I guess 77mm and 67mm for LF at least.

Hmm...it isn't super easy finding information about the multitude of options either. For example, a Formatt Hitech Orange 1, 2, or 3? Various grades? Shades of yellow or just amount of stops? Some places say .3 / .6. / 1.2. Others say 1, 2, and 3 stops. Which 1.2 is technically 4 stops. Lee warming filter 81-1 vs 81-2 options. Lol, I am making this too complicated.

[Alan Gales]

Searching for filters on eBay can be a pain because there are so many of them listed. If I type in something like 77mm polarizers I'll get a ton to look through. For example, I can type in B+W 77mm polarizer or Heliopan 77mm polarizer. It helps to be more specific. Of course some of what I may be looking for does not show up due to the Seller's description or some other crazy reason. The ones that don't show up can be the bargains because they don't get the bids! ;) It took a while to build my 77mm filter collection off eBay but that's because I wanted quality but I wanted it cheap. I chose 77mm because that's what my RZ67 lenses took before I got into large format. Step up rings are great!

With square graduated neutral density filters you just slide the filter up an down in the holder until you get the graduation in the place you want it. I use colored filters for b&w. I don't have any experience with any graduated colored filters except for a Cokin graduated blue filter when I started out in 35mm photography. It was supposed to deepen the blue of the sky for color film while also being a graduated neutral density filter. It's effect didn't look natural to me so I got rid of it.

[Alan Gales]

Read this!

https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/polarizing-filters.htm

[xkaes]

I chose 77mm because that's what my RZ67 lenses took before I got into large format.

I walked the same path, but with an RB67. I loved the entire system, but when I discovered that I could get negatives 4 times the size, in a system that weighed less, I made the switch. Yeah, I had to change from a great Beseler 23C to a 45MXII, etc. but it was worth it. Nowadays, a good RB67 PRO body sells for only $49. I'm tempted, but not enough. The GREAT lenses cost a lot less now, but they are as heavy today as they were 40 years ago.

Yet, I still haven't given up on the RB system completely. I still use my Mamiya 37mm f4.5 C Fisheye on my Toko 4x5!

www.subclub.org/fujinon/gonefishin.pdf (http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/gonefishin.pdf)

But back to the question for Austin. IF you use graduated colored filters -- for sunsets, etc., you will PROBABLY want to use a similar ND GRADUATED filter on the "other side" -- of the same density -- so that the overall density of the image is the same. It all depends on the scene and your preferences, but if you simply use a graduated color filter, the unfiltered part of the scene might be too light.

[appletree]

I walked the same path, but with an RB67. I loved the entire system, but when I discovered that I could get negatives 4 times the size, in a system that weighed less, I made the switch. Yeah, I had to change from a great Beseler 23C to a 45MXII, etc. but it was worth it. Nowadays, a good RB67 PRO body sells for only $49. I'm tempted, but not enough. The GREAT lenses cost a lot less now, but they are as heavy today as they were 40 years ago.

Yet, I still haven't given up on the RB system completely. I still use my Mamiya 37mm f4.5 C Fisheye on my Toko 4x5!

www.subclub.org/fujinon/gonefishin.pdf (http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/gonefishin.pdf)

But back to the question for Austin. IF you use graduated colored filters -- for sunsets, etc., you will PROBABLY want to use a similar ND GRADUATED filter on the "other side" -- of the same density -- so that the overall density of the image is the same. It all depends on the scene and your preferences, but if you simply use a graduated color filter, the unfiltered part of the scene might be too light.

Yes that makes sense. So the overall density is the same. One half is yellow with clear behind it. The other half would be clear with grey behind it or whatnot.

I have a silly question, but I guess it matters less of the light at the focal plane of the camera and negative, but the light at the subject. Correct? Thus a mountain scene that has the sun behind it thus the sky is bright but the side of the mountain is all shadows would make good use of filters in general? Although...if I have a full yellow or orange or whatever filter, I can just position it as needed. Either 100% over the lens or leave a portion of the lens exposed etc.

I think I am unsure why I am even asking that. Of course, it is why I meter at the subject with the meter facing the camera, when possible.

[appletree]

So...more research. Many say a polarizer is critical. In that case, where would I find one that fits the 100mm Z-Pro? I only see Lee makes one for around 300 large ones.
Unless I am better off (more economical) getting this in a round filter for the 77mm lens and a step down ring for the 67mm.

And someone personally recommended a warming filter for my trip to NZ. If I was to only buy one (each about 80 bucks) any opinions on a Schneider 81-1 vs 81-2?

Thanks.

[appletree]

Rumor has it this might fit....?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Haida-Filter-105mm-105-CPL-C-POL-Circular-Polarizer-Optical-Glass-New-with-Case/372003944001?hash=item569d29b641:g:u1oAAOSwXetZXWHU
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3362313#forum-post-50599440

[Alan Gales]

I had to look up 81-1 and 81-2 to be sure. They are newer designations born from the old 81-A and 81-B designations. The difference is the color temperature. An 81-2 will be slightly warmer than an 81-1. I forgot to mention warming filters to you. They are nice to have for warming a person's face or a landscape. Which is best? Well that would depend upon the color temperature and how much warming you feel that you need. They use to come in 81-A, B, C, and etcetera. I own both 81-A and 81-B B+W filters. There is a slight difference between the two. You might want to start with the 81-1 and see what you think of it.

I don't know anything about Haida filters.

[xkaes]

So...more research. Many say a polarizer is critical. In that case, where would I find one that fits the 100mm Z-Pro? I only see Lee makes one for around 300 large ones.
Unless I am better off (more economical) getting this in a round filter for the 77mm lens and a step down ring for the 67mm.

As I mentioned earlier, I recommend getting any filter that you will be using a LOT in ROUND GLASS. What size you get is up to your lenses and "Cokin" system.

As to multiple graded filters use, all you need to do is look at the ground glass to know where to position them and if they are the correct strengths for the scene.

It's not as complicated as you seem to think.

[Alan Gales]

As I mentioned earlier, I recommend getting any filter that you will be using a LOT in ROUND GLASS. What size you get is up to your lenses and "Cokin" system.

As to multiple graded filters use, all you need to do is look at the ground glass to know where to position them and if they are the correct strengths for the scene.

It's not as complicated as you seem to think.

+1

The Cokin filter system is nice but a bit finicky. I used a polarizer a lot so I had it in a round glass filter. On the other hand I feel that graduated ND filters are about useless in a round filter because you can't adjust them up and down without moving the camera lens which of course changes your composition.

[appletree]

Thanks for all the advice. I went ahead and purchased the following:


Cokin Z-Pro Holder
Z-Pro 77mm Adapter Ring
Z-Pro 67mm Adapter Ring
B+W 77-67mm Step Down Ring
Formatt Hitech 4x4 Orange 1 Filter
Cokin Z-Pro 4x6 001 Yellow Filter
Formatt Hitech 4x5 ND 1.2 Grad Filter
Schneider 4x4 81-1 Warming Filter
Formatt Hitech Firecrest 77mm Circular Polarizer

Only other thing I will look for is a ND 0.6 Grad Filter. I was able to snag all filters for $40 or less, except for the polarizer and warming filter. ~60 each. Thanks again for everything.

PS: Does the edge of a rectangle/square filter affect the image? Say I want to slide the warming filter (for example) to where it only covered half the image, thus exposing the edge of the filter in the middle of the frame.

[Alan Gales]

I've never tried that but I wouldn't advise it. Even if you couldn't see a noticeable difference between the filtered and non filtered part, light will be bouncing off the filter edge and will probably degrade your image.

I've read on here that photographers sometimes use old lenses that have chips or cracks. Sometimes degradation shows up and sometimes it doesn't due to light bouncing around the chipped or cracked area. It varies depending upon the light. Of course with some subjects it is really noticeable and others not so much. It is recommended to paint the chip or crack with black india ink to help prevent this reflection.