New to Black and White developing...........

[Horseman]

Hi All,

I have been getting my negs processed by a lab up to now but am about to embark on the " home developing route "

I shoot Ilford delta 100 primarily and am reasonably happy with the results I get back from the lab but want to take what i see is the next step.

I have read a bit into it and am happy that I will need to experiment around a basic concept in order to fine tune the exp/dev process but was looking for " comment " on what and where is the best place to start !

i am looking at the Patterson 3 reel with a Mod 54 to allow daylight processing and have the following list of "priorities"

1. simplicity ( I have a dark bathroom but looking to keep the process as simple as possible)
2. exp/dev aimed for scanning for hybrid printing
3. consistency
4. smell ( I have told "her " she will barely notice the smell !)

lol

Any advice or comments gratefully accepted

John

[Leigh]

Hi John,

A couple of points to keep in mind.

1 - Shadow density (thinnest areas of the negative) is controlled ONLY by exposure.

2 - Highlight density is controlled (mostly) by development.

Obviously, mid-tones are a bit of each.

Best place to start - Manufacturers' recommendations.
That includes film speed, exposure, and processing.

- Leigh

[xkaes]

The only thing I can add is that the biggest culprit to smell is the acedic acid stop bath. You have a few options, such as getting a fan to blow out the fumes, find a low-fume stop bath, use the vinegar in your fridge (it's really the same thing, and tell her you are making a salad) or get a LOT of FEBREZE.

[Tin Can]

A lot of us do not use an acetic acid stop. I generally use fresh water for film and citric acid for paper. Others here will differ.

I showed a friend my darkroom once, before I quit using acetic acid. She quickly grabbed my bottle of stop, which was marked and before I could prevail, she took a big inhale. Then smiled and said she missed that smell...

[Doremus Scudder]

Horseman,

A citric acid stop bath used one-shot has very little odor. I mix mine half-strength as well. Kodak Indicator Stop is acetic acid, but I believe that the Ilford Ilfostop with indicator is citric-acid based. This will eliminate a lot of odor.

Fixer can be a bit smelly too; try using Ilford Rapid Fixer or Photographers' Formulary TF-5 for lowest odor.

Generally, however, even a bit of acetic acid stop and acid fixer smell dissipates rather quickly. Turn on the exhaust fan and/or open a window for a bit after processing and you'll be fine.

As for simplicity: stick with Develop-Stop-Fix-Wash for film processing. Use liquid concentrate stock solutions so you don't have to do a lot of mixing (think HC-110 or Pyrocat). Find a simple way to consolidate and store processing stuff and chemicals out of the way when not in use, but easily accessible when needed. Film processing isn't that complicated.

As for starting point for developing. Manufacturers' recommendations are great, but if you've decided on a combination that the manufacturer doesn't list, do check here for a little help. Many get great results from box speed and manufacturer's published developing time. The most common deviation from this for LF users is to rate their film slower (1/3-2/3 stop) and reduce development time 15-20% from the published time. This gives a bit of a safety factor for shadow detail and makes for a bit less contrasty neg, which many prefer for landscape work, etc. (me included). This should also give you a negative that scans well. However, if you ever plan to do any conventional printing, it's best to optimize your negatives for enlarging. The only way to do this, however, is to go into the darkroom and print...

Best,

Doremus

[Tin Can]

I mix my citric acid stop for paper from bulk food-grade grains. No dust. Very cheap. TF5 fixer is a liquid best mixed with distilled water per Photography Formulary the only manufacturer as far as I know. TF5 was recently 1/2 price and I stocked up. Shipping is cheapest at 4 gallons. My second such order in 3 years.

I run a sink exhaust fan except when outside temp is very cold. I notice nearly no odor from my darkroom.

My developers are liquid to eliminate airborne powders which are always a bad idea in my opinion. Mix them outside.

[esearing]

If you are brave -pick a developer then jump right in and expect to burn through some rolls in the learning process. If more timid, take a class or find a local mentor/enthusiast to walk you through the process a few times.
For scanning you may want a less dense negative for flat bed vs a dedicated film scanner.
As for smell - use water for stop bath (film) and non-acidic fixers like Formulary's TF5.

If doing this indoors - practice cleanliness and protect your counters with plastic, or prepare to remodel your kitchen.

[John Kasaian]

If you like your lab's results, I'd ask them which developer they use and go from there.
Practice loading your tank with scrap film, then close your eyes and try it---what helps me is having a clean counter top where I can place everything I need where it's easy to find in the dark (example---full film holders lay flat on the left, tank in front, lid to tank on the right, empty film holders on edge, far left.)
As others mentioned, there are low or no odor alternatives that work just fine.
I use Betty Crocker measuring cups from WalMart to pre-measure to dosage when I use a processor, colored plastic tape and a Sharpie tells me which chemical goes in which measuring cup.
When using trays, I work on a piece of wood I cut to fit in order to protect the counter top.
Have fun!

[Luis-F-S]

If the smell is still an issue you know what to replace

[Horseman]

If the smell is still an issue you know what to replace

Lol it will be a tough choice !

Thanks all for the replies and help it is much appreciated. I think I am going for the dedicated Ilford developer, odorless stop bath and fixer for now and will be shooting a lot more sheets while I get to grips with it.

Lots of good info here so thanks very much

One question , I saw someone on a YT vid rinse the film with water for a minute or 2 prior to commencing a 3 step development to remove the antihalation layer, is this necessary|beneficial?

Thanks for all the replies

I will post my first sheet as I am quite excited by the whole new world I am entering.

John

[Horseman]

For scanning you may want a less dense negative for flat bed vs a dedicated film scanner.


One more question esearing, by underexposure or by underdevelopment ?

Thanks

John

[Leigh]

One question , I saw someone on a YT vid rinse the film with water for a minute or 2 prior to commencing a 3 step development to remove the antihalation layer, is this necessary|beneficial?
Hi John,

Most films have an anti-halation coating on the back (away from the emulsion). It is a dense (maybe opaque) layer of dye that prevents light from reflecting off the metal in the camera, back into the emulsion resulting in additional exposure. The effect is called "halation" because it produces an out-of-focus bright area on the print.

It is designed to wash off in any liquid. You can use a pre-wash to do it if you wish, or the developer will do it.

There may be other benefits in specific processing sequences, and it may be contra-indicated in others.

For example, with two-part developers like Diafine, a pre-wash is definitely discouraged since it defeats the normal processing sequence. The first part of the developer is designed to be absorbed into a dry emulsion.

- Leigh

[Horseman]

Thanks Leigh, for the mo I will stick to the simple 3 stage method in that case.

[Mick Fagan]

You may wish to think about the SP-445 film tank, it doesn't hold 6 sheets, only 4 sheets, but in my case, it uses around 465ml of solution (manufacturer states 16 US fluid ounces/475ml), instead of the 1 litre that the MOD54 requires. This may mean the difference if you return home and only need to develop 2 sheets of film but don't until you get enough to justify using 1 litre of solution.

I have used Jobo rotary processing for 4x5" film for around 30 years, I purchased an SP-445 tank when they became available and have been more than happy with it. I have not used the MOD54 unit, so I cannot comment, other than noting the solution quantity requirement.

Mick.

[Horseman]

Thanks Mick, I had already ordered the MOD54 but I do like the SP445 as well so may get one to allow for smaller runs .

Many thanks for all the help and advice everyone,

John

[esearing]

One more question esearing, by underexposure or by underdevelopment ?

Thanks

John

Why would you underexpose film vs use development dilution/time/temp/agitation to control contrast and density? Think about it - what are the consequences of each on shadows, midtones, and highlights?

[Pere Casals]

I've done lot in a bathroom... this is my view. First, I suggest this reading: http://www.ssnpstudents.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Focal-Press-The-Darkroom-Cookbook.pdf

It is a bathroom, so a priority is using very low toxic chemicals. Xtol is low toxic, ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) based with some phenidone.

Most fixers are low toxic, but once you have used it... it contains diluted Silver that is toxic in that situation, so try to not drop used fixer around. Silver can be recovered easy from fixer, see here post #9: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/silver-recovery.11869/#post-164354

Most people simply dumps fixer, just know that used fixer contains diluted Silver, so try to not spill it on domestic surfaces too much...


You can use paper developing trays: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?143112-Developing-B-amp-W-sheet-film-at-home-for-a-total-beginner!&p=1419143&viewfull=1#post1419143


For developing in trays at darkroom I'd suggest Xtol 1:2, this is a part of stock developer an 2 parts of water. Each sheet needs a minimum 25ml of Xtol stock for each 4x5 sheet, this is a total 75cc after adding water.

If you use Xtol 1:2 dilution then you will have enough volume 75cc per 4x5 tray yo cover well the sheet, you may use a bit more of 1:2 dilution, some 150ml per sheet.

Here you have the times: https://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.php?Film=Ilford+HP5&Developer=Xtol&mdc=Search&TempUnits=C

Some tricks:

1) When diluting developer you can adjust temperature very easy. Just measure Xtol stock temperature and adjust temperature of water to be added to make the mix have 20ºC. For example if 100ml Xtol stock is at 22ºC and you are to dilute 1:1, then mix cold and hot tap water until you have water at 18ºC, if you add 100ml of water at 18ºC to 100ml of Xtol at 22ºC you ontain 200ml at 20ºC near exactly. If you are to dilute 1:2, then you have to add 200ml at 19ºC to 100ml of Xtol at 22ºC to obtain 300ml 1:2 dilution at 20ºC...

2) When you transfer the sheet to the stop bath you can open lights (after some 10s) and do the rest with lights open, so you will observe how fixer works.

3) You can use an HEPA purifier like Honeywell 16200E to get rid of dust, this is extremly useful when drying and when scanning.

[Kirk Fry]

The killer is getting even development. Take a few pictures of blank sky and see if your developing procedure is producing even development. It took me two years to discover why Ansel used open trays. :-) And yes you have to have a dark room. Really dark.

[Leigh]

2) When you transfer the sheet to the stop bath you can open lights (after some 10s) and do the rest with lights open, so you will observe how fixer works.
I do not recommend turning the lights on during any processing session.

Doing so kills your eyes' dark adaptation.

- Leigh

[Horseman]

Why would you underexpose film vs use development dilution/time/temp/agitation to control contrast and density? Think about it - what are the consequences of each on shadows, midtones, and highlights?

Now I think about it it may well be a daft question , but it did at least make me think about it...

Expose normally, and "underdevelop" to make the highlights less dense, and the midtones a little less dense and shadows hardly affected if at all ( and not dense in the first place ) , This now makes sense to me if I am on the right track !

Thanks !

[Jim Noel]

The only thing I can add is that the biggest culprit to smell is the acedic acid stop bath. You have a few options, such as getting a fan to blow out the fumes, find a low-fume stop bath, use the vinegar in your fridge (it's really the same thing, and tell her you are making a salad) or get a LOT of FEBREZE.

Or do as many have done for 20+ years - use a plain water stop bath.

[Leigh]

Expose normally, and "underdevelop" to make the highlights less dense, and the midtones a little less dense and shadows hardly affected if at all ( and not dense in the first place ) , This now makes sense to me if I am on the right track !
Yep... Exactly.

- Leigh

[Pere Casals]

Or do as many have done for 20+ years - use a plain water stop bath.

I use plain water as stop bath, it takes some 15s longuer to halt development than an acid stop bath (30s instead 15s). With water bath I shorten development some 10s to get just the same, as effect it has to be compared with development working at half speed, but I think I would notice no difference with same development time.

The fumes which emanate from acetic acid stop baths are not good for lungs, a citric bath is better, but plain water is even better because it has no risk of carbonic bubbles that soon or later may happen with some developers.

[Horseman]

My order from Speed Graphic has arrived.

I went for Ilford DDX, odourless stop and Ilford rapid fix. And the Paterson 3 reel with MOD54 insert.

Thanks to Pere, Leigh,Jim, Mick, esearing,Kirk,xkaes,luis,John,Randy and Doremus for the advice , support and time.

Oh, I also got 240 bottles of fabreeze, ( Country meadow), just in case.....

Hope to be posting images soon !

Horseman

[Rapidrob]

I've been developing film now for 50 years. If there is one tip for a new guy, I would say do not over agitate the developer. It is easy to do. You think you bathing the film in fresh chems,but your causing pressure ripples that can streak your film with plus density bands and ruin the negatives. Read up on what the best techniques are.

[Pere Casals]

Hope to be posting images soon !

Horseman

Just a final suggestion, after washing film with tap water you can bath the sheets in a little of distilled water, this will prevent drying marks from salts in tap water...

You start a nice trip, enjoy !

[Leigh]

Just a final suggestion, after washing film with tap water you can bath the sheets in a little of distilled water, this will prevent drying marks from salts in tap water...
The proper way to avoid water marks on dried film is to bathe it in PhotoFlo as the last step before drying. You can put the PhotoFlo in regular water unless it's nasty. If so, use distilled.

PhotoFlo is designed to decrease water surface tension, allowing it to run off rather than forming drops.

- Leigh

[Pere Casals]

The proper way to avoid water marks on dried film is to bathe it in PhotoFlo as the last step before drying. You can put the PhotoFlo in regular water unless it's nasty. If so, use distilled.

PhotoFlo is designed to decrease water surface tension, allowing it to run off rather than forming drops.

- Leigh

Of course I also use a PhotoFlo equivalent... but I found that while using a Squeegee a sheet can take scratches, specially with 8x10, if a single hard particle ends on the sheet or the Squeegee you have the scratch... most of the times it is cosmetic, but if I scracth a Velvia sheet I do not sleep well that night :) , so I use a very small amount of PhotoFlo (or none) in a final bath of distilled water, then I wipe out water very, very gently, and if some distilled water remains it does not leave marks.

Some tap waters have x10 more salts than other, so distilled (or deionized) water may be more or less useful depending on that... in my case tap water is very high in salts, so I tend to use it... it is just 15 cents cost for a batch of processed sheets...

[Michael Kadillak]

Of course I also use a PhotoFlo equivalent... but I found that while using a Squeegee a sheet can take scratches, specially with 8x10, if a single hard particle ends on the sheet or the Squeegee you have the scratch... most of the times it is cosmetic, but if I scracth a Velvia sheet I do not sleep well that night :) , so I use a very small amount of PhotoFlo (or none) in a final bath of distilled water, then I wipe out water very, very gently, and if some distilled water remains it does not leave marks.

Some tap waters have x10 more salts than other, so distilled (or deionized) water may be more or less useful depending on that... in my case tap water is very high in salts, so I tend to use it... it is just 15 cents cost for a batch of processed sheets...

Why in Gods name would you ever subject a negative to a squeegee? A print yes, a negative hell no. You are inducing a risk variable that is completely unnecessary to the process.

I have also never used pho flow and do nothing more than let the negatives dry with gravity doing what it does best. I wash the negatives in Inglis dedicated film washers to keep the negatives from touching each other.

I acquired a large drying cabinet and tied the electrical cord in a knot so I would never use the power dryer. I use a pin registration punch to put two nice clean holes in the negative before I process it and then use cut up paper clips as the handing devices inside the cabinet. I let the film hand in the closed cabinet insitu for four hours or more and I have never had an issue with drying marks or dust of anything. Perfect negatives each and every time. Sometimes easy just works. Don't make it harder than it needs to be.

[Pere Casals]

Why in Gods name would you ever subject a negative to a squeegee? A print yes, a negative hell no. You are inducing a risk variable that is completely unnecessary to the process.

I have also never used pho flow and do nothing more than let the negatives dry with gravity doing what it does best. I wash the negatives in Inglis dedicated film washers to keep the negatives from touching each other.

I acquired a large drying cabinet and tied the electrical cord in a knot so I would never use the power dryer. I use a pin registration punch to put two nice clean holes in the negative before I process it and then use cut up paper clips as the handing devices inside the cabinet. I let the film hand in the closed cabinet insitu for four hours or more and I have never had an issue with drying marks or dust of anything. Perfect negatives each and every time. Sometimes easy just works. Don't make it harder than it needs to be.

Michael, my tap water is around 300mg/L of salts content, when I did it like you I got remarkable marks inevitably, with distilled water finishing bath I never had a problem, now I use a hair dryer a few seconds (with cold air) just to remove the droplets.

[Michael Kadillak]

In unique circumstances as appears to be your case with higher than normal salt content I guess I can understand. I went back to the Negative by Adams and he mentioned that only when one finds negative marks in the drying stage to be a problem does one revert to distilled water or other problem solving procedures. My point is that especially with formative questions to darkroom procedures we need to make sure these qualifying attempts at verifying the need for each individual before assuming these are SOP. Adams does say that under unique circumstances that one can go to a "soft sponge" wiper but as delicate as some emulsions are at this stage of the process I would have to be at the end of my rope before going down that road.

[Pere Casals]

Well, Adams sure had no problem with Yosemite crystaline water :) , this is water !!

I agree that a final rinse with distilled water is not the SOP, but IMHO it is a very good practice. Let me add a little more to this off topic. Water may contain from 30mg/L to even 1500mg/L, of salt, and this is what (as you quoted from the Negative) will impose a method.

A 8x10 sheet may contain from 4gr to 10gr of water in the emulsion before drying (just weight film before and after drying), hight salt content tap water can have until 1500mg/L and this may leave until 15mg (as a maximum, perhaps from 2 to 10), of bicarbonates and other in intimate contact with organic dyes of color slides and negatives, this is for a 8x10 sheet or roll. Is this harmful ??

PhotoFlo (even with Ca sequestring activity) do not remove salts from water, rather it spreads salts uniformly in the surface and inside the emulsion so no marks are seen.

Salts can be corrosive... I cannot say the actual impact, but long time ago a lab technician warned me about that potential risk, and told me that final salt content in the emulsion was a process quality parameter, but I don't know the real importance.

I see it way less problematic for (non chromogenic) BW film, were marks would be the main concern. Sometimes that I had run out of distilled water I used bottled mineral water of about 35mg/L, with no marks.

That lab technician also told me that if using a 2 stages bath with distilled water (like with fixer) then distilled water consumption is very low and end salt content result is very, very low.


Distilled water is also the perfect job for BW, not necessary perhaps, but the perfect job. At the end even car washing facilities use deionized water for the final rinse :)



I've also tried the "soft sponge", but at the end I managed to remove droplets with an air blower (a salvaged hand dryer) in 5 seconds, not an "air knife" like in the industrial processors, but good enough. Even with a hair dryer it worked ok.

So finally with distilled, the blower and an HEPA filter I find myself confortable: no scratch, no dust, no mark and no bicarbonate in the Velvia emulsion... before that I had clear problems with all that, (anyway I don't know the actual salt effect with organic dyes for preservation)



PD: Calculation:

With a 20microns thick emulsion (0,5ml of dried emulsion for a 8x10) and 8mg of salt remaining in the sheet then it would be 4mg of salt in each side, as most of the salt would be on the surfaces of the sheet, this it would be a salt concentration of some 5grs of salt per liter of dried emulsion... It would be interesting asking Mowrey if it has an impact for long time preservation...

[xkaes]

Why in Gods name would you ever subject a negative to a squeegee? A print yes, a negative hell no. You are inducing a risk variable that is completely unnecessary to the process.

Because some "gods" have worked in industrial/commercial situations where super-fast drying is essential. And that's why special film squeegees -- and drying liquids -- are made and sold. If they are used according to their instructions, they are safe. In fact, the instructions on Yankee's Instant Film Dryer specifically states to use a film squeegee after immersing the film. With the Dryer and a squeegee you can have dry film in about 100 seconds -- pretty impressive. Those days of fast turn around are behind me, and I've only used a film squeegee once or twice on my own film, but they have a completely legitimate use.

[Pere Casals]

film squeegee

A requisite for that should be rinsing before with very clean water, some tap waters can include little mineral and metallic particles that have to be filtered out for that, as minilabs do by routine. Anyway best possible squeegee is high speed air, IMHO.

[neil poulsen]

Hi John,

A couple of points to keep in mind.

1 - Shadow density (thinnest areas of the negative) is controlled ONLY by exposure.

2 - Highlight density is controlled (mostly) by development.

Obviously, mid-tones are a bit of each.

Best place to start - Manufacturers' recommendations.
That includes film speed, exposure, and processing.

- Leigh

Not to disagree w/Leigh necessarily . . .

A common speed to use is half the mfg. recommended film speed.

Development is typically based on lab testing done in one's own darkroom. The development depends on the degree of contrast in the scene being photographed.

[Horseman]

Ok everyone

I have developed my first 6 in a patterson with mod45 and apart from putting them in " emulsion side out " and an unknow light leak on 3 of the 6 ( on the same side of the tank ) was delighted.

But

If i use open trays to dev 2 sheets . do i use 1/3 of a ltre, constantlty rock and agitate ....or do i still need a lire?

My gut feeling is 2 sheets in 330 ml of develeoper etc will be right if the right time is used?

JM

B

[Horseman]

not sure what happened to the "t" in litre....

might be the excess amount of " gin and onic , onight "

lol

[Pere Casals]

A thousand times I've heard and read about acetic acid stop bath being the the big offender in darkroom smells...

"● The fumes which emanate from acetic acid stop baths are perhaps the single greatest health hazard in the darkroom"

page 103: http://www.ssnpstudents.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Focal-Press-The-Darkroom-Cookbook.pdf

There if nothing wrong in using acetic or citric. Anyway plain water does the same, single thing is that with plain water you should shorten the developent time by a few seconds, 10s perhaps, because it takes a bit more to stop development develoment.

I use plain water as stop bath and I'm perfectly happy with it.