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philfrem14
5-Dec-2017, 12:01
Hello everybody

I have found a old ULF camera whith suction film or paper holder in. But I am not the pump. I know I can use a vacuum cleaner, but it makes too much noise. I am looking for a pump that could be used. The format is 24X24 "and I would like to suck fiber paper or otho film.
Could you indicated me a model of pump?
Many thanks
Phil

Eric Woodbury
5-Dec-2017, 13:18
Put the vacuum cleaner in another room and pipe the vacuum to where you need it. Vacuum cleaners are noisy, but cheap, and move a lot of air. Good luck.

Jac@stafford.net
5-Dec-2017, 13:45
A vacuum back requires remarkably little volume. Shop around.

philfrem14
5-Dec-2017, 13:54
Thanks for reply
I know the problems with a vacuum cleaner, and it is not evident to used it. (noise), it is true it' s more cheaper than a pump.
I would like find one. Could give me a brand of pump for that? Do you know where I can find one?

Gary Beasley
9-Dec-2017, 10:55
Look for something like a Robinair high vacuum pump for evacuating ac systems. It may even need a bleed valve to reduce the vacuum because it will pull 28-29hg which is about max you can get without special equipment. You can often find them used pretty cheap.

philfrem14
9-Dec-2017, 11:41
Thank you Gary for these indications.
I will watch
I made a request to a european manufacturer of enlarger: Reinhel.
http://reinhel-charpiot.fr
Im waiting a quote...

esearing
9-Dec-2017, 12:56
ebay - ByChrome Vacuum Easel Pump
Or try these folks http://www.ttind.com/vacuum.html

philfrem14
9-Dec-2017, 13:11
@esearing
Thanks for the link
I have find this pump on ebay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/ByChrome-Vacuum-Easel-Pump-115VAC-50-60HZ-LE-42270/381091126197?hash=item58bacd1bb5:g:wWAAAOSwj0NUj1fs
Do you know if it is powerful enough for 20X24 format?

philfrem14
10-Dec-2017, 12:00
I found a pump ByChrome. I bought it. I come back to you when I tested it...
thanks a lot for your help

john23
23-Aug-2019, 06:14
Look for something like a Clivedicks NZ (https://clivedicks.co.nz/) excessive vacuum pump for evacuating ac systems. It may additionally even want a bleed valve to reduce the vacuum because it will pull 28-29hg which is about max you may get without unique system. You can regularly discover them used quite cheap.

Bernice Loui
23-Aug-2019, 10:43
Volume needed depends on the vacuum loss due to uncovered holes. If all vacuum holes are covered by the sheet of film, then the volume of air vacated by the pump could be small, if not, the vacuum leakage can put great demands on the vacuum pump. Back in the days using a BIG graphic arts process camera, the vacuum pump for the film back was essentially a vacuum cleaner, not silent in any way. The film back was about 36" x 36" the vacuum leaks depending on the sheet of film used.

Vacuum levels require should be modest as it does not require much vacuum to hold a sheet of film flat.


Bernice

Tom Monego
25-Aug-2019, 15:26
I have a 20x24 easel with a vacuum pump, bought it from a friend and while it holds the paper flat especially if you cover all the holes, the pump is loud, so I have only used it once. But has a long hose, maybe put it in another room hmmm. Bought it to do copy work, the first job was old news paper covers to reproduce for a book, was when film was king.

Drew Wiley
26-Aug-2019, 15:33
The most common problem is too much vac draw. A simple handheld cordless household vac is plenty strong, but tends to wear out batteries quickly. A large corded vac, unless a pro one with variable power, will need an in-line bleeder valve to prevent excess suction. Anything noisy is apt to be archaic. Vacs should generally be in another room anyway to prevent dust getting stirred up from exhaust air. If you want to discuss true cleanroom vacs and have five or six hundred dollars to budget, then there are some wonderful options which are very quiet, extremely clean, and have built-in variable power; good for general darkroom vacuuming too.

Rick A
30-Aug-2019, 06:16
What I bought for my home made 20x24 vacuum easel. I don't need the manifold gauges, but at this price who cares if they come with it.
https://www.ebay.com/p/3-5cfm-1-4hp-Air-Vacuum-Pump-HVAC-Refrigeration-AC-Manifold-Gauge-Set-R134a-Kit/1537966030?gclid=CjwKCAjwkqPrBRA3EiwAKdtwk-dzTP2-jqKQ0exwT3AzVvb9Cp8mzaryvh_pThSMGZCwP0HYE5_xUxoCXNQQAvD_BwE&thm=1000&rlsatarget=pla-740524795146&abcId=1140976&mkgroupid=77338445224&itemid=1537966030_1000&norover=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&targetid=740524795146&merchantid=6296724&poi=&mkevt=1&mktype=pla&googleloc=9006038&device=c&mkcid=2&chn=ps&campaignid=1907933686

Tin Can
30-Aug-2019, 08:47
That is an automotive AC vacuum pump which has an oil reservoir to lubricate the pumps vanes. Notice the sight glass on the pump end.

It does have 'clean' suction but it will spew oil mist as al pumps have input and output.

Best place it outside the DR.

They are designed to run for hours and pull a high vacuum.

I would install the vacuum gauge inline somewhere it is visible.

I use a dry vane vacuum pump with input and output filters. The vanes wear and and produce dust.




What I bought for my home made 20x24 vacuum easel. I don't need the manifold gauges, but at this price who cares if they come with it.
https://www.ebay.com/p/3-5cfm-1-4hp-Air-Vacuum-Pump-HVAC-Refrigeration-AC-Manifold-Gauge-Set-R134a-Kit/1537966030?gclid=CjwKCAjwkqPrBRA3EiwAKdtwk-dzTP2-jqKQ0exwT3AzVvb9Cp8mzaryvh_pThSMGZCwP0HYE5_xUxoCXNQQAvD_BwE&thm=1000&rlsatarget=pla-740524795146&abcId=1140976&mkgroupid=77338445224&itemid=1537966030_1000&norover=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&targetid=740524795146&merchantid=6296724&poi=&mkevt=1&mktype=pla&googleloc=9006038&device=c&mkcid=2&chn=ps&campaignid=1907933686

Bob Salomon
30-Aug-2019, 11:02
Have you asked Joe at TTI?

https://www.ttind.com/vacuum.html

Drew Wiley
30-Aug-2019, 11:38
I make my own vac easels. For one thing, I want built-in masking blades. I also want valve zoning. One warning : Don't use peristaltic vac pumps, which operate via a fluctuating internal diaphragm. They'll slightly jiggle a vac easel surface, and might defeat consistently crisp images.

esearing
31-Aug-2019, 04:43
Anyone ever try reversing a pond air pump? They move quite a bit of air into water and you could fit standard size hoses and bleeder valves at the pump rather than at the table. They have a hum much less noisy than a vacuum.

Gary Beasley
31-Aug-2019, 04:56
Anyone ever try reversing a pond air pump? They move quite a bit of air into water and you could fit standard size hoses and bleeder valves at the pump rather than at the table. They have a hum much less noisy than a vacuum.

Are you talking about an aquarium pump or something bigger? The little aquarium pumps are the peristaltic type Drew warned about. Ive seen bigger varieties that are vane pumps, excellent for this. If you want suction with no vibration a turbine pump like the vacuum cleaner is the smoothest and cheapest, though the vane pumps come close.

joem
31-Aug-2019, 07:21
I took a somewhat different approach. My wife had a desk fan left from she worked ~8" blade I see similar at CVS and Walmart for not a lot of money. Took a cardboard box and cut out the front to match the face of the fan when standing on it's base then put the fan in the box then and duct taped to both hold it in place and seal around the unit. Found a hose connector that would connect to a Nauta flexible tank (boating stuff) and a corrugated plastic hose of about the right diameter, cord out of the box through a hole then that and the box sealed with tape.
The camera is an 11X14 process camera, there is enough suction to hold 11X14 or 8X10 film in place I tried a piece of enlarging paper but it had some curl and wouldn't pull flat I suspect some fresher paper without the curl would be fine.

esearing
2-Sep-2019, 04:05
Are you talking about an aquarium pump or something bigger? The little aquarium pumps are the peristaltic type Drew warned about. Ive seen bigger varieties that are vane pumps, excellent for this. If you want suction with no vibration a turbine pump like the vacuum cleaner is the smoothest and cheapest, though the vane pumps come close.

Pond Pump - used to force air down to 6 feet of water. like this one https://webbsonline.com/Item/61017 - air flow rate (loaded) of .71 CFM (20 liters/min) and a maximum air depth of 2.90 psi (0.20 kgf/cm2). You would have to make it run backwards. And they last forever. My air pump has been in service 24x7x365 for the past 10 years, outdoors.

Gary Beasley
2-Sep-2019, 09:24
Pond Pump - used to force air down to 6 feet of water. like this one https://webbsonline.com/Item/61017 - air flow rate (loaded) of .71 CFM (20 liters/min) and a maximum air depth of 2.90 psi (0.20 kgf/cm2). You would have to make it run backwards. And they last forever. My air pump has been in service 24x7x365 for the past 10 years, outdoors.
Just from looking at the case it doesn't look like a piston or a vane type pump. I doubt you could make it run backward, the direction of airflow is a function of the valve system. Probably would have to take the cover off to find the air intake. Without looking at it I couldnt say whether its useable or not. The size seems ideal for the job though.

Michael Kadillak
2-Sep-2019, 13:32
Found an inexpensive but fully capable vacuum pump at Harbor Freight. Works like a champ and cheap.

Gary Beasley
2-Sep-2019, 13:54
Found an inexpensive but fully capable vacuum pump at Harbor Freight. Works like a champ and cheap.
Happen to have a link so we can see what it looks like?

Michael Kadillak
2-Sep-2019, 14:29
Happen to have a link so we can see what it looks like?

I got mine several years ago Gary as a backup to my existing vacuum pump for about $50. It was their in house brand. Now it appears that they are selling a 2.5 CFM automotive vacuum pump for $89 on their website. If I remember correctly 2.5 cfm is about the right volume but if one finds the pump volume is pulling to hard you can always put a bleeder value in line. Standard protocol.

Ethan
2-Sep-2019, 15:34
I’ve been thinking about making a vacuum easel, and I had an idea, but I’m not sure if it would work. Has anyone tried building a vacuum table with a grid of computer fans underneath, rather than holes leading to a single pump? In theory, this should be less noise due to the load being spread out among more fans/motors, and there wouldn’t be any pressure lost when printing smaller because all the holes would have their own fan. In my head, this seems like a good idea, but has anyone tried it to your knowledge?

Michael Kadillak
2-Sep-2019, 17:26
I’ve been thinking about making a vacuum easel, and I had an idea, but I’m not sure if it would work. Has anyone tried building a vacuum table with a grid of computer fans underneath, rather than holes leading to a single pump? In theory, this should be less noise due to the load being spread out among more fans/motors, and there wouldn’t be any pressure lost when printing smaller because all the holes would have their own fan. In my head, this seems like a good idea, but has anyone tried it to your knowledge?

Enterprising people enterprise. Photographers make photographs. One needs to decide which is your calling. I do not see the incremental improvement in what has proven quite proficient decades ago in a vacuum easel/table. You put a negative pressure on a flat piece of material with a symmetrical pattern of small holes in it to "hold" the printing paper flat. Who cares quite honestly how the negative pressure gets there? But I am coming at this topic as a photographer.

Tin Can
2-Sep-2019, 17:42
MK has a point.

However some of us do fiddle about. I like DIY. Everything.

Easy to test with little investment in time or money.

I worry more about vibration and harmonics with multiple fans.

Go for it!




Iíve been thinking about making a vacuum easel, and I had an idea, but Iím not sure if it would work. Has anyone tried building a vacuum table with a grid of computer fans underneath, rather than holes leading to a single pump? In theory, this should be less noise due to the load being spread out among more fans/motors, and there wouldnít be any pressure lost when printing smaller because all the holes would have their own fan. In my head, this seems like a good idea, but has anyone tried it to your knowledge?

Drew Wiley
3-Sep-2019, 10:48
I've made all my own vac easels, some truly precision, all the way from 8x10 to 30x40 inches. Get ahold of pictures of registration easels for the printing industry from companies like Olec Stoesser, and you can see that the holes are not only quite small, but that the hole pattern is very thoughtfully designed to both hold the perimeter of the film and paper well, as well as to draw the material flat in a thoughtful manner. I know the value of seeking out a bargain, but you don't get something for nothing. For instance, a pot metal pump from Harbor Freight or some other Cheapo Depot style outlet might suddenly blow up on a cold day because the worthless zinc alloy goes brittle, and I mean literally blow up; I've seen it happen. Lots of their stuff doesn't even last ten minutes. In any event, isolate your pump from your work area by running the hose through a hole in the wall, so if shrapnel goes flying, you or your darkroom won't get affected. I'm not joking. These junk items also pose certain fire hazards. You can get affordable vac pumps from reputable suppliers like Grainger, which has branches all over the USA. Vac cleaners can be used if isolated from the work area to prevent dust spread, and if equipped with a bleeder valve, which can be as simple as an extension wand with a pressure-release feature. Some of us have true industrial HEPA vacs equipped with variable power; but these typically start around $600. If not, they're not the real deal. A real HEPA vac is not an ordinary shop or household vac with a so-called HEPA filter put in them, but involves a completely sealed two-stage system to prevent very fine dust finding any alternate pathway out. They're nice if you want a real cleanroom environment in the darkroom, because you can clean up with them in there, and they're very quiet. Otherwise, isolate the vac in a different room and run a hose through the wall.