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Indranath Neogy
6-Mar-1998, 17:41
Anybody have any comments on the Sinar P 4x5? I've seen one for sale, but I'm unable to find any specifications on it. Also what's the accessory compatibility with the current line of Sinar stuff and is there much stuff available second hand?

thanks,

Indy.

Theodoros
2-Jul-2016, 16:44
Sinar P,P2,P3 & X series of cameras is (by far) the world's most sold camera for professional use... The base of existing cameras exceeds 100K units worldwide and is by far ahead from the next runner up. As far as accessories available for it, one can have a look at ebay... the list is endless and prices (obviously because of the wide availability) are the most sensible around... In reality there is no competition for value to quality ratio. The drawback of the system is that most gear rails are made out of hard plastic (inexcusable) and thus are prone to wear under heavy use (at least they are replaceable and not necessarily from Sinar's dealers services).

The camera is among the best to have for yaw free operation and even if there are yaw errors, those are less than with competition. The movements and the size of them are on the top of the ladder, it even allows for one to convert the angle of the standards with respect to the rail, for cases where the rail is angled towards the subject. Another advantage is the "focus throw" that is only of 16mm for a full 360 degrees turn of the focusing knob, making it one of the most desirable cameras ever for one to nail focus even on the most demanding situations... Proceed.

Mark Sampson
3-Jul-2016, 20:18
Theodoros is essentially right. I will just add that the Sinar P is a heavy studio camera(I believe that the 4x5 version weighs around 14 pounds), so probably not the not the easiest choice for field work or traveling. Unless, of course, your budget includes an assistant.

Theodoros
4-Jul-2016, 14:15
There are some more that one should consider with the Sinar P-X series of cameras... They all have much the same standards and thus can be converted from one to another by just changing frames and bellows...
Thus, one can have his P as 4x5 or 8x10, change it back from 8X10 to 4x5 within seconds, then change it to P3 and then from P3 back to 8x10 within seconds.... It even can be converted to P-DSLR (again within seconds) and work with FF DSLRs or mirrorless on the rear standards...

All in all, the P/X -series and the Arca Monolith are the only (forgive me if I miss another) cameras in the market that can work with a mirrorless, a mirrorbox DSLR, an MFDB, 120 film and sheet film of any size...
Additionally those two (the P series and the Monolith) are among the very few cameras in the market that have all shift and up-down mechanisms below the swing & tilt ones making it easy for one to have his camera for completely yaw free operation (as long as one cares to have a simple conversion for each lens board he uses so that the entrance pupil of the lens is positioned exactly at the center of the tilt arc's radius and cares to position the image area on the tilt arc's center on the rear frame)...

Bob Salomon
4-Jul-2016, 14:54
Sinar P,P2,P3 & X series of cameras is (by far) the world's most sold camera for professional use... The base of existing cameras exceeds 100K units worldwide and is by far ahead from the next runner up. As far as accessories available for it, one can have a look at ebay... the list is endless and prices (obviously because of the wide availability) are the most sensible around... In reality there is no competition for value to quality ratio. The drawback of the system is that most gear rails are made out of hard plastic (inexcusable) and thus are prone to wear under heavy use (at least they are replaceable and not necessarily from Sinar's dealers services).

The camera is among the best to have for yaw free operation and even if there are yaw errors, those are less than with competition. The movements and the size of them are on the top of the ladder, it even allows for one to convert the angle of the standards with respect to the rail, for cases where the rail is angled towards the subject. Another advantage is the "focus throw" that is only of 16mm for a full 360 degrees turn of the focusing knob, making it one of the most desirable cameras ever for one to nail focus even on the most demanding situations... Proceed.

Where did you get your yaw information? Many cameras are yaw free when positioned normally, the Linhof Kardan prototype being the first yaw free camera.
Any camera with the swing point positioned above the tilt point is always yaw free in its upright position.
Any camera that is normally yaw prone when in its upright position becomes yaw free when swung sideways
90°.

There is absolutely no way to tell in a finished shot if it was made in a yaw prone or a yaw free camera. In fact there is no way to tell if a shot was made with a Sinar, a Linhof, a Toyo, a Zplaubel, a Horseman, a Wista, or any other camera.
It is also impossible to tell if a picture was taken with an optical axis camera, a base tilt camera, a fixed point as symmetrical axis camera (Sinar) or a continuously variable asymmetrical axis camera (Linhof GTL) or any other type of movement camera.
Lastly, how did you determine that Sinar had sold 100,000 cameras? They only made, in the past few decades, the P and its variants. All the other models, F, F+, C, etc were made from parts of the P and sold as more basic versions. And speaking of their success, after the Koch family found that they had to sell the company to their largest retailer in Switzerland that company finally had to sell it about 3 years ago to Leica. Linhof, Wista, Toyo, etc. have not had to keep selling the company, although they have all downsided.

Theodoros
4-Jul-2016, 15:29
Where did you get your yaw information? Many cameras are yaw free when positioned normally, the Linhof Kardan prototype being the first yaw free camera.



No camera is yaw free unless the entrance pupil of the lens is positioned exactly at the center of the circle of which the tilt arc is part of (EDIT: ..and stays there if combined with up-down shifts or side shifts)... This is not "information"... it is physics.


Any camera with the swing point positioned above the tilt point is always yaw free in its upright position.

...and I'm an astronaut that has traveled all over galaxy in secret missions...



Any camera that is normally yaw prone when in its upright position becomes yaw free when swung sideways
90°.

...and I'm an astronaut that has traveled all over galaxy in secret missions...


There is absolutely no way to tell in a finished shot if it was made in a yaw prone or a yaw free camera. In fact there is no way to tell if a shot was made with a Sinar, a Linhof, a Toyo, a Zplaubel, a Horseman, a Wista, or any other camera.
It is also impossible to tell if a picture was taken with an optical axis camera, a base tilt camera, a fixed point as symmetrical axis camera (Sinar) or a continuously variable asymmetrical axis camera (Linhof GTL) or any other type of movement camera.



No... there isn't... but the image will differ from camera to camera more or less depending on the error that is involved with each one of them... The image will also differ if you frame two of the above cameras for the same frame with the same lens on (no movements) and then apply the same value of movements on the two cameras... proportions (distortion) will differ too...


Lastly, how did you determine that Sinar had sold 100,000 cameras? They only made, in the past few decades, the P and its variants. All the other models, F, F+, C, etc were made from parts of the P and sold as more basic versions. And speaking of their success, after the Koch family found that they had to sell the company to their largest retailer in Switzerland that company finally had to sell it about 3 years ago to Leica. Linhof, Wista, Toyo, etc. have not had to keep selling the company, although they have all downsided.



Consequences of growing to be large and then the market to shrink... Sinar wasn't the only victim... Surely Leica saw some potential that others luck as to invest in it...

Bob Salomon
4-Jul-2016, 16:12
No camera is yaw free unless the entrance pupil of the lens is positioned exactly at the center of the circle of which the tilt arc is part of (EDIT: ..and stays there if combined with up-down shifts or side shifts)... This is not "information"... it is physics.

...and I'm an astronaut that has traveled all over galaxy in secret missions...


...and I'm an astronaut that has traveled all over galaxy in secret missions...



No... there isn't... but the image will differ from camera to camera more or less depending on the error that is involved with each one of them... The image will also differ if you frame two of the above cameras for the same frame with the same lens on (no movements) and then apply the same value of movements on the two cameras... proportions (distortion) will differ too...



Consequences of growing to be large and then the market to shrink... Sinar wasn't the only victim... Surely Leica saw some potential that others luck as to invest in it...

Leica wanted to cover all digital formats up to 45 for years. But their earlier attempts to buy Sinar were rebuffed.

Say yellow to my friend Bob Cabana for me when you see him.

Theodoros
4-Jul-2016, 16:20
Leica wanted to cover all digital formats up to 45 for years. But their earlier attempts to buy Sinar were rebuffed.

Of course they did... but they choose to invest in Sinar instead of others looking (desperately) for investors... Wouldn't Linhof (of which the importers in US you are business related) be happy to find an investor (especially one like Leica) Bob?




Say yellow to my friend Bob Cabana for me when you see him.

Who is Bob Cabana? ...I guess you should call him and say whatever to him since its your friend (as you state)... I don't know the man.

Greg
4-Jul-2016, 16:55
(as long as one cares to have a simple conversion for each lens board he uses so that the entrance pupil of the lens is positioned exactly at the center of the tilt arc's radius and cares to position the image area on the tilt arc's center on the rear frame)...

Theoretically 100% correct. But just mounting your lenses on plain old Sinar lens boards will work most of the time for most of your shots as long as your movements are not extreme. Have done it this way with Sinars since the 1980s. Willing to bet most of Sinar P users simply do it this way. Few years ago reverted back to Sinar Norma systems (4x5 & 8x10). Bit more compact and personally more of a pleasure to use in the field.

Bob Salomon
4-Jul-2016, 17:01
Of course they did... but they choose to invest in Sinar instead of others looking (desperately) for investors... Wouldn't Linhof (of which the importers in US you are business related) be happy to find an investor (especially one like Leica) Bob?

Who is Bob Cabana? ...I guess you should call him and say whatever to him since its your friend (as you state)... I don't know the man.

I thought you said that you were an astronaught. If so, then you know Bob Cabana. Google him and learn. I taught him, and his fellow crew members, how to use the Rollei 6008 on the Space Shuttle. Also how to use the Linhof Aero Technika 45 EL on those missions as well.

Theodoros
4-Jul-2016, 17:06
Theoretically 100% correct. But just mounting your lenses on plain old Sinar lens boards will work most of the time for most of your shots as long as your movements are not extreme. Have done it this way with Sinars since the 1980s. Willing to bet most of Sinar P users simply do it this way. Few years ago reverted back to Sinar Norma systems (4x5 & 8x10). Bit more compact and personally more of a pleasure to use in the field.

Hi Greg, yes this is correct... In fact I mentioned it in my very first post in this discussion if you look back... the yaw error with the P system will be less, this is because the tilt's arc radius is a huge 120mm (much larger than other cameras) which results on the error to decrease with respect... Additionally all shift mechanisms are bellow the swing/tilt ones, which means that when one shifts, he doesn't influence the tilt or swing geometry at all... However, making the camera completely yaw free (which only requires some simple knowledge and some -again simple- self involvement) will be of much benefit... Especially if one works with smaller image areas and at closer distances.

Theodoros
5-Jul-2016, 02:37
I thought you said that you were an astronaught. If so, then you know Bob Cabana. Google him and learn. I taught him, and his fellow crew members, how to use the Rollei 6008 on the Space Shuttle. Also how to use the Linhof Aero Technika 45 EL on those missions as well.

I'm an astronaught (that has traveled all over galaxy in secret missions), as much as cameras become yaw free if the swing point is positioned above the tilt point or if they are side turned by 90 degrees so that their tilt mechanism becomes swing and the swing acts as tilt...

There is no way for this invention (or other) to apply, unless if the entrance pupil of the lens is positioned exactly at the center of the tilt arc and the axis that is formed by aligning the entrance pupil of the lens and the swing point, intersects the tilt arc at its "0" position...

Additionally, the only way for a camera to retain its yaw free operation and shifts are applied, is if when side shifting, one side shifts the swing point along with the entrance pupil of the lens and if he uses up-down shifts he ups or downs the tilt mechanism along with the entrance pupil of the lens (that's why shift mechanisms MUST be bellow the respective tilt and swing ones)... All other "theories" are just alchemist inventions that lead to into inducing distortions on the image....

Bob Salomon
5-Jul-2016, 06:11
I'm an astronaught (that has traveled all over galaxy in secret missions), as much as cameras become yaw free if the swing point is positioned above the tilt point or if they are side turned by 90 degrees so that their tilt mechanism becomes swing and the swing acts as tilt...

There is no way for this invention (or other) to apply, unless if the entrance pupil of the lens is positioned exactly at the center of the tilt arc and the axis that is formed by aligning the entrance pupil of the lens and the swing point, intersects the tilt arc at its "0" position...

Additionally, the only way for a camera to retain its yaw free operation and shifts are applied, is if when side shifting, one side shifts the swing point along with the entrance pupil of the lens and if he uses up-down shifts he ups or downs the tilt mechanism along with the entrance pupil of the lens (that's why shift mechanisms MUST be bellow the respective tilt and swing ones)... All other "theories" are just alchemist inventions that lead to into inducing distortions on the image....

In plain simple English, explain what you believe yaw means in a photographic application. Hint, it has nothing to due with the entrance or exit pupil of the lens, it has all to do with the mechanical movements of the camera.

Theodoros
5-Jul-2016, 06:24
In plain simple English, explain what you believe yaw means in a photographic application. Hint, it has nothing to due with the entrance or exit pupil of the lens, it has all to do with the mechanical movements of the camera.

Ιn plain English, your hints are that make me an astonaught that has travelled all over galaxy in secret missions... Open a book on optical theory just to verify that lenses don't rotate on their axis unless the rotation is performed with their entrance pupil being firmly locked in the same (unique) point... This is because a sphere has ONLY ONE center...

EDIT: In return let me give you a hint... lenses project cones on the light sensitive area surface... and cones are parts of a sphere of which the base is intercepted VERTICALLY and that base is always at 90 degs with respect to the radius of the sphere... In other words if your lens entrance pupil moves (at a different position from the center of the sphere), you won't get a circle projected, but an "egg shape" instead.... In other words, if the axis that passes through the entrance pupil of the (repositioned) lens and then through the center of your image area is not exactly perpendicular to the image area but angled, ...the shape of the projection will be distorted from circle to egg-shape...

Bob Salomon
5-Jul-2016, 06:48
Ιn plain English, your hints are that make me an astonaught that has travelled all over galaxy in secret missions... Open a book on optical theory just to verify that lenses don't rotate on their axis unless the rotation is performed with their entrance pupil being firmly locked in the same (unique) point... This is because a sphere has ONLY ONE center...

EDIT: In return let me give you a hint... lenses project cones on the light sensitive area surface... and cones are parts of a sphere of which the base is intercepted VERTICALLY and that base is always at 90 degs with respect to the radius of the sphere... In other words if your lens entrance pupil moves (at a different position from the center of the sphere), you won't get a circle projected, but an "egg shape" instead....
So you do not know the definition and cause of photographic yaw!

Drew Wiley
5-Jul-2016, 08:11
Gosh, Bob, everybody knows Sinar came out with the first popular patents for yaw-free operation and first aggressively marketed the concept, and that the P series was an outright home run for studio use, and still is. I can think of certain standardized studio setups where yaw-free operation is a distinct convenience.
But my personal favorite Sinar is the Norma, which predates their venture into yaw-free. I never paid much attention to that yaw-free feature when I did own the relevant Sinar models. Otherwise, nothing gets thrown out. It's a fully interchangeable system. My P standards ended up as part of the focus mechanism on a big custom enlarger. It's an awfully heavy and bulky camera for field use, which is my main interest. The Norma is just right.

Bob Salomon
5-Jul-2016, 08:56
Gosh, Bob, everybody knows Sinar came out with the first popular patents for yaw-free operation and first aggressively marketed the concept, and that the P series was an outright home run for studio use, and still is. I can think of certain standardized studio setups where yaw-free operation is a distinct convenience.
But my personal favorite Sinar is the Norma, which predates their venture into yaw-free. I never paid much attention to that yaw-free feature when I did own the relevant Sinar models. Otherwise, nothing gets thrown out. It's a fully interchangeable system. My P standards ended up as part of the focus mechanism on a big custom enlarger. It's an awfully heavy and bulky camera for field use, which is my main interest. The Norma is just right.

The patent was not for yaw free. It was for asymmetrical axis movements. Linhof was sued by Sinar over the Kardan Master L camera that had continuously variable asymmetrical movements and Linhof lost that suit and had to pull the L off the market because one of those continuously asymmetrical points on the Linhof was the same point that Sinar used on the P.
Again, Linhof showed the first yaw free camera, the original Kardan, many years before Sinar ever introduced the P series.

Theodoros
5-Jul-2016, 09:09
Drew, Sinar was the first that did describe yaw free as being able to have "the swing axis on the tilt plane when both movements are combined", but they "forgot" to mention that the tilt plane IS NOT the lens board plane unless one makes sure that the entrance pupil of the lens is positioned on the lens board... Further more, on the P series, both the swing plane and the tilt plane are positioned on a parallel plane to the plane that the mechanisms apply...

The truth is that if the swing axis is on the tilt plane, this is not enough for the system to be yaw free, but the swing axis and the tilt axis must cross on the point that the entrance pupil of the lens coincides on... Otherwise one will see all plane lines as being parallel (which is a major factor for yaw free operation but not the only one) but there will be geometrical distortions that will remain on the image plane itself (proportions of dimensions will be altered from left to right and top to bottom on the image plane) not by much on the P system (because tilt arcs radius is a huge 12cm one)... but the distortions across the image plane will not be corrected.

Now as for bulk, this is a personal matter... Certainly the camera is not aimed for one to carry it around and play Ansel Adams with it shooting landscapes... (after all who cares for accuracy or distortion with distant subjects?). It is aimed for one to work on a tripod for professional studio work or serious architectural interiors, or other photography that requires the maximum of accuracy and skills as to get the maximum out of it... The Norma is no where near the P series for this kind of work, so its a (personal) matter on photographic priorities....

Theodoros
5-Jul-2016, 09:56
The patent was not for yaw free. It was for asymmetrical axis movements. Linhof was sued by Sinar over the Kardan Master L camera that had continuously variable asymmetrical movements and Linhof lost that suit and had to pull the L off the market because one of those continuously asymmetrical points on the Linhof was the same point that Sinar used on the P.
Again, Linhof showed the first yaw free camera, the original Kardan, many years before Sinar ever introduced the P series.

Gosh Bob! You can't patent YAW FREE operation of a camera because no camera by itself can ensure that the result will be yaw free... YAW FREE is a lens positioning matter with respect to the image area, a camera will work different with different lenses depending on each individual lens entrance pupil position...

Most makers of cameras claim "yaw free" operation these days... and guess what... All of them "forget" to add the phrase: "only with symmetrical lenses", All of them "forget" to mention that the tilt plain and swing plane must cross on the axis that also crosses the entrance pupil of the lens and 90% of the makers (Linhof included - Sinar excluded on the 90%) forget to mention that if your side shift mechanism is above your swing or the up-down shift above your tilt and you combine the movements... you can "kiss yaw free operation goodbye" even if the entrance pupil is positioned correctly... give us a brake will you? ...and please stop posting nonsense like cameras becoming "yaw free" if their swing is above tilt or "all cameras becoming yaw free if they are turned 90 degrees to the side" (especially since you never have backed up with some theory as to support those nonsense)....

We are not all as ignorants as some of your customers might have been in the past as to invent sale properties of cameras that do not exist...

Drew Wiley
5-Jul-2016, 10:50
Theodoros - "yaw free" is irrelevant in most architectural work because the camera is typically leveled first, before tilts, swings, or rise. It's logical application is production tabletop studio photography. I'll let you and Bob argue the finer points of the subject. Sinar made a big fuss about buying perfectly nodal-centered mounted lenses from them, at a premium of course. Symmetrical, assymetrical, whatever; I just do it based on rote familiarity with each particular style of camera, having forgotten the theory long ago. But to suggest that there is anything less precise about outdoor photography is utter ballyhoo. And there is certainly
more demand on equipment reliability. Try getting a little sand in that P gearing.

Theodoros
5-Jul-2016, 11:52
Theodoros - "yaw free" is irrelevant in most architectural work because the camera is typically leveled first, before tilts, swings, or rise. It's logical application is production tabletop studio photography. I'll let you and Bob argue the finer points of the subject. Sinar made a big fuss about buying perfectly nodal-centered mounted lenses from them, at a premium of course. Symmetrical, assymetrical, whatever; I just do it based on rote familiarity with each particular style of camera, having forgotten the theory long ago. But to suggest that there is anything less precise about outdoor photography is utter ballyhoo. And there is certainly
more demand on equipment reliability. Try getting a little sand in that P gearing.

I think you underestimate yaw free operation importance for architectural photography... Other than yaw free being the only way for the photographer to have completely distortionless architectural images, it also allows stitching by rotating the camera around the nodal point (same as the entrance pupil) axis and thus achieve extreme WA completely distortionless shots.... Further more, one can use swings for half the angle between shots of the plane he is after to stitch, thus achieving a previously unimaginable perspective...

Sinar's customer's service of offering correct positioning for each different lens for yaw free operation, should have been followed by other makers too, but... wouldn't it be far better if makers would make the frames able to be adjusted back and forth on their respective standards so that the user is forced to get more self involved as to have his camera to operate correctly?

Heck, 90% of the cameras out there have design flaws like if they have been designed by ignorants and the few that are designed "by the book" fail to finish the job when it comes to mount the lens (or the image area) at the right position...

EDIT: And then you get salesmen in forums trying to call "night for being a day"...

Drew Wiley
5-Jul-2016, 12:08
Many architectural photographer rely on very wide angle lenses which stretch and distort the image regardless. Guess someone could stitch if they had nothing
better to do with their time, or they had total control of the lighting the whole session. I thought stitching was for people who couldn't afford new sox. But if you'll excuse that quip, find me a interesting structure that is actually square to begin with! I even sell special instruments to contractors for calculating certain corrections based on the premise that no room is actually square! And lots of structures are not truly level either. But yeah, all machinery is some kind of compromise between price and performance, even the lenses we use. Maybe if you're NASA or the DEA you can afford something significantly better. But that fact doesn't stop me from enjoying my various Sinar cameras. They get the job done.

Theodoros
5-Jul-2016, 12:15
.............find me a interesting structure that is actually square to begin with!

Try shooting the full width of a temple in an 11th century ancient byzantine monastery!

EDIT: square is irrelevant to distortionless

Drew Wiley
5-Jul-2016, 12:58
It would be a treat to me just to visit and see such a thing.

Bob Salomon
5-Jul-2016, 13:07
Gosh Bob! You can't patent YAW FREE operation of a camera because no camera by itself can ensure that the result will be yaw free... YAW FREE is a lens positioning matter with respect to the image area, a camera will work different with different lenses depending on each individual lens entrance pupil position...

Most makers of cameras claim "yaw free" operation these days... and guess what... All of them "forget" to add the phrase: "only with symmetrical lenses", All of them "forget" to mention that the tilt plain and swing plane must cross on the axis that also crosses the entrance pupil of the lens and 90% of the makers (Linhof included - Sinar excluded on the 90%) forget to mention that if your side shift mechanism is above your swing or the up-down shift above your tilt and you combine the movements... you can "kiss yaw free operation goodbye" even if the entrance pupil is positioned correctly... give us a brake will you? ...and please stop posting nonsense like cameras becoming "yaw free" if their swing is above tilt or "all cameras becoming yaw free if they are turned 90 degrees to the side" (especially since you never have backed up with some theory as to support those nonsense)....

We are not all as ignorants as some of your customers might have been in the past as to invent sale properties of cameras that do not exist...

Can't you read? I said that the patent was not for yaw free.

Read first. Then learn photographic terminology. Then study what different cameras can do and then comment.

Theodoros
5-Jul-2016, 13:55
Can't you read? I said that the patent was not for yaw free.

Read first. Then learn photographic terminology. Then study what different cameras can do and then comment.

Ohhhh no... not again! Bob why was the Kardan the first yaw free camera? Can you please explain (for once) what makes it yaw free? Please explain the fundamentals behind yaw free operation as I have and state where you disagree and why... Please avoid bold statements like "all cameras are yaw free if turned by 90 degrees" or "cameras are yaw free if the swing is above tilt" this time, or back up your statements with some (sensible) reasoning...

As far as I know... no camera that is first focused accurately and then needs refocusing after movements are applied is yaw free... the more the focus is lost, the more the yaw error that has been induced... do you disagree with that?

Bob Salomon
5-Jul-2016, 15:04
Ohhhh no... not again! Bob why was the Kardan the first yaw free camera? Can you please explain (for once) what makes it yaw free? Please explain the fundamentals behind yaw free operation as I have and state where you disagree and why... Please avoid bold statements like "all cameras are yaw free if turned by 90 degrees" or "cameras are yaw free if the swing is above tilt" this time, or back up your statements with some (sensible) reasoning...

As far as I know... no camera that is first focused accurately and then needs refocusing after movements are applied is yaw free... the more the focus is lost, the more the yaw error that has been induced... do you disagree with that?
This has been posted several times and there is an article on it in the Linhof Camera Story book.
The first Kardan shown had a knuckle type joint ( the origin of the Kardan name) that did tilts and swings at the same point and was hence yaw free.
However Linhof decided that this joint was too complicated so the production models were optical axis movement cameras and were not yaw free.

Later Linhof models like the Kardan Master L, TL, GTL, GT, etc. did have dual tilt movements, like the Sinar P, one below the swing point to level the standard when the camera was inclined, and one above the swing point for performing Scheimpflug maneuvers. Many other cameras from other manufacturers also had this setup.
Since, as stated earlier, any yaw prone camera is yaw free when swung 90° to make the normal swing point become the tilt point Linhof added an extra bubble level to the TechniKardan as it was very easy to swing this camera over on a proper head and then use it as a yaw free camera. Apparently not many users did this.

Linhof, and other view camera manufacturers regularly supplied lenses factory mounted on the boards, if you were willing to pay the extra price that the factories, including Sinar, charged for the lens. If not, Linhof supplies boards with pre milled, properly centered holes for each shutter size as well as boards with pre bored pilot holes for those who want to bore their own holes. The price for the boards, with pilot hole or sized hole, are the same.

Theodoros
5-Jul-2016, 15:31
This has been posted several times and there is an article on it in the Linhof Camera Story book.
The first Kardan shown had a knuckle type joint ( the origin of the Kardan name) that did tilts and swings at the same point and was hence yaw free.
However Linhof decided that this joint was too complicated so the production models were optical axis movement cameras and were not yaw free.

Later Linhof models like the Kardan Master L, TL, GTL, GT, etc. did have dual tilt movements, like the Sinar P, one below the swing point to level the standard when the camera was inclined, and one above the swing point for performing Scheimpflug maneuvers. Many other cameras from other manufacturers also had this setup.
Since, as stated earlier, any yaw prone camera is yaw free when swung 90° to make the normal swing point become the tilt point Linhof added an extra bubble level to the TechniKardan as it was very easy to swing this camera over on a proper head and then use it as a yaw free camera. Apparently not many users did this.

Linhof, and other view camera manufacturers regularly supplied lenses factory mounted on the boards, if you were willing to pay the extra price that the factories, including Sinar, charged for the lens. If not, Linhof supplies boards with pre milled, properly centered holes for each shutter size as well as boards with pre bored pilot holes for those who want to bore their own holes. The price for the boards, with pilot hole or sized hole, are the same.

More bold statements still... can you please at least answer me if you agree that if a camera is focused (no movements applied) and after movements are applied, focus is lost... does this mean that the camera is yaw prone? Do you agree on this?

EDIT: And that the more yaw prone the camera, the more focus is off?

EDIT 2: Let me give you a hint... the answer is yes! Focus will be off only if the camera (rather the system) is yaw prone...

Then next question should be.... "why focus has been lost if only a tilt movement has been applied"?

Hint-2... Because the distance of the entrance pupil of the lens to the image area has changed?

Bob Salomon
5-Jul-2016, 16:24
More bold statements still... can you please at least answer me if you agree that if a camera is focused (no movements applied) and after movements are applied, focus is lost... does this mean that the camera is yaw prone? Do you agree on this?

EDIT: And that the more yaw prone the camera, the more focus is off?

No, that happens with any base tilt camera and has nothing to do with the subject yawing on the ground glass which is what will happen with any yaw prone camera if a tilt and swing are used at the same time.

Here is some reading for you to help you learn what yaw means in a view camera.

http://www.sinar.ch/en/yaw-free/

Theodoros
5-Jul-2016, 16:40
why do I suspect that Bob won't be answering any of the above... Nevermind, I may as well ask him some more questions which should follow the above...

If the swing point is on the same axis as the tilt point and the lens loses its focus when tilted, is there any possible chance it won't lose focus by exactly the same amount if one swings it for the same angle that he tilted it before?

HINT: The answer is NO-absolutely not! ...focus will be off exactly by the same amount...

Then... if you turn the camera by 90 degs and you swing the lens (so that you now make it tilt) will that make any difference to the focusing?

HINT: The answer is "don't make me laugh"....

Next Q: Then why you insist posting false information like that or all the rest of nonsense bold statements that you have all this time Bob?

Bob Salomon
5-Jul-2016, 16:42
why do I suspect that Bob won't be answering any of the above... Nevermind, I may as well ask him some more questions which should follow the above...

If the swing point is on the same axis as the tilt point and the lens loses its focus when tilted, is there any possible chance it won't lose focus by exactly the same amount if one swings it for the same angle that he tilted it before?

HINT: The answer is NO-absolutely not! ...focus will be off exactly by the same amount...

Then... if you turn the camera by 90 degs and you swing the lens (so that you now make it tilt) will that make any difference to the focusing?

HINT: The answer is "don't make me laugh"....

Next Q: Then why you insist posting false information like that or all the rest of nonsense bold statements that you have all this time Bob?

It is easier to just gnome you until you learn.

Theodoros
5-Jul-2016, 16:56
No, that happens with any base tilt camera and has nothing to do with the subject yawing on the ground glass which is what will happen with any yaw prone camera if a tilt and swing are used at the same time.



No Bob... It doesn't happen with any camera that has base tilts (or other tilts) it only happens with yaw prone systems because the entrance pupil of the lens is not positioned at exactly the center of the circle of which the tilt arc is part of the perimeter... If the entrance pupil of the lens is positioned at the center of the circle, it will stay constant no matter if the tilt arc is a base one, or any other... You should read what Sinar says on the article that you post better... Is it so difficult for you to understand that the mounting distance is a different thing to the entrance pupil position and that the lens axis rotates only around the entrance pupil... this is basic physics!



Here is some reading for you to help you learn what yaw means in a view camera.

http://www.sinar.ch/en/yaw-free/

It says what I said before Bob... Nothing to do with focus being lost in a yaw free system... It actually says it literally in the first paragraph when describing the yaw prone camera errors that they loose focus: "Focusing turns into a time consuming process of trial and error, until the photographer finally accepts a compromise."

Theodoros
5-Jul-2016, 17:16
Actually to end it... you should read this on the Sinar's statement that you post "... this type of design has the advantage that Scheimpflug´s law is completely satisfied, that is a line through subject, lens and image planes coincides, while a camera which yaws is restricted to a point of intersection of the three planes."

You can't have a line through subject, lens and image plane unless the line passes through the lens entrance pupil (which is a unique point in a lens) now Bob... can you?

Theodoros
6-Jul-2016, 07:37
I mean the lens plane (sorry for the typo on the post before) is always a plane that includes the entrance pupil of the lens as one of the plane's points... And it is always perpendicular to the lens axis (that is also passing through the entrance pupil)... no? And the entrance pupil is the point in the lens that is focused... no? So, if a camera looses focus if tilts (or swings) are applied, it means that it is yaw prone... So the mounting board has nothing to do with a camera being yaw free... The tilt mechanism of a camera that claims to have been designed for yaw free operation, has a center around which it rotates... So the lens entrance pupil must be positioned exactly on that center...

And of course cameras that rotate by 90 degs and (by some voodoo magic) become yaw free... are pure nonsense "theories", created by people that are complete ignorants on the matter...