Replacement 8x10 darkslides

[Jim Becia]

I’ve checked the usual places with no luck. Anybody know where one can find replacement darkslides for something like the Lisco Regal or Fidelity 8x10 holders? I’m talking about the ones with the plastic tabs. Or am I relegated to just buying new 8x10 holders? Thanks.

[photog_ed]

I’ve seen them on the Bay. It might take some patience.

[Alan Gales]

Like photog_ed, I have seen them on Ebay but not very often.

You could buy some cheaper well used holders off Ebay and just take the dark slides from them for your present holders.

[stawastawa]

check the camera shops, call them. they might have some in the back.

[B.S.Kumar]

I do not know if they will fit, but new replacement dark slides for Toyo 8x10 holders are 3,000 JPY each, plus shipping. If you can find some junk holders, it may be cheaper to buy them for the slides.

Kumar

[Phil Hudson]

Also look out for 18x24cm versions of the Fidelity from Europe which can sometimes be obtained for reasonable money - the slides are the same as 8x10 inch version.

[mstrickland]

The newer Toyo slides do not fit in the Fidelity holders, just FYI.

[Michael Kadillak]

I would think that one could go to a plastics shop and they could measure the thickness and rigidity of an existing dark slide and come up with a suitable material that fits the billing. Cutting the material square I would think would be a cost effective procedure where one could sound the corner with an abrasive tool. The tab could be riveted on. I would be happy to chip in with funding to get this in the done column.

[Jim Becia]

Anyone know the thickness of these darkslides?

[Michael Kadillak]

Anyone know the thickness of these darkslides?

My Fidelity Elite 8x10 film holder dark slide thickness is 0.030. I am getting an identical reading for my Toyo 8x10 holder dark slide thickness.

Anyone have a connection with the plastics industry. I would take several dozen 8x10 replacement dark slides and I am sure there are others in the same boat.

[Oren Grad]

In a thread on photo.net long ago, discussing construction of film holders, Sandy King mentioned McMaster-Carr as a source for phenolic plastic sheets (branded "Garolite") that can be used for septums and darkslides. Also back in those ancient days, Alan Brubaker made replacement darkslides for some of my old Eastman whole plate film holders, and he also said that he used phenolic plastic.

[Michael Kadillak]

In a thread on photo.net long ago, discussing construction of film holders, Sandy King mentioned McMaster-Carr as a source for phenolic plastic sheets (branded "Garolite") that can be used for septums and darkslides. Also back in those ancient days, Alan Brubaker made replacement darkslides for some of my old Eastman whole plate film holders, and he also said that he used phenolic plastic.

Thanks. I will chase this angle and see what is available and report back.

[Michael Kadillak]

I ordered two 12x12" Garolite sheets from Carr McMaster this morning to see if it will work for dark slide replacement. More shorty.

[photonsoup]

I would think that a 3d printed one would be strong enough, but I'm not sure. I checked thingaverse.com and found the file to print a 4x5 film holder and darkslide https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:81892

I printed a lens board for a Crown Graphic (https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:797723) that worked very well

It shouldn't be to hard to make one out of some aluminum sheet stock.

[Jason Turvey]

I know that Intrepid ship globally but not sure of their rates;
https://intrepidcamera.co.uk/products/8x10-film-holder

[Michael Kadillak]

I know that Intrepid ship globally but not sure of their rates;
https://intrepidcamera.co.uk/products/8x10-film-holder

Has anyone purchased one and can comment on its use? It appears that these holders are bottom feed with a rotating bottom flap like the plastic Fidelity holders. Is there an integrated "over top" light flap designed into the bottom flap to keep the light out of this area which is very different than wooden holders that have a straight seam at the two sides?

[photonsoup]

I saw a couple of days ago eBay had a couple of wood holders in need of repair with three darkslides

[Michael Kadillak]

I saw a couple of days ago eBay had a couple of wood holders in need of repair with three darkslides

If they don't fit what you are interested in replacing, it is an exercise in futility. Case in point. My Toyo dark slides do not fit my Fidelity holders and vice versa.

[Jason Turvey]

Intrepid have a Facebook Group and the owner posts in there, he was very responsive to many questions I had over email as well, so you may find some info from users of the product in there (I don't really venture in there much);
https://www.facebook.com/groups/237967590023868

I've recently been looking for 4x5 Double Dark Slides and I cannot get over the cost of the 8x10 ones on the secondhand market.

[John Earley]

.031 Garolite Micarta Phenolic G10FR4 sheet can be found on the web but so far I haven't found any that was black. I wonder how a painted surface would hold up? Poorly I would guess.

.032 Aluminum sheet can be found fairly easily on the net and isn't too expensive and is fairly easy to cut.

[John Kasaian]

If you need several darkslides, I'd check out a local plastics fabrication company and see what they can do. Something as basic as cutting an 8x10-ish sheet of material shouldn't be expensive---fabricating a handle might be another story although these guys can get pretty creative.
http://www.precisionplasticsinc.com/ is the local shop here in Fresno.

[Drew Bedo]

I have not read all of this thread so this suggestion may be redundant . . .sorry.

Why not watch the auctions for a relatively low cost "beater" film holder. dump the holder and use whichever dark slide is ion the best condition.

[Michael Kadillak]

After several trips to various plastic shops I believe I have found a suitable place where the correct dark slide material can be sourced.

I am having them cut me an 8x10 dark slide out of what appears to be the optimal material and after testing it I will be likely having several dozen made once I get prices and figure out the top tabs. I will report back later.

[chris_4622]

A couple of years ago I made Whole Plate film holders using Garolite XX as the dark slides. They are not light proof. Some testing revealed sunlight exposes the film in as little as 15 seconds leaving the film splotchy.

If there is a plastic that works like the old plastic dark slides I will replace all the dark slides on my 20 holders. Michael please keep us informed.

[Michael Kadillak]

A couple of years ago I made Whole Plate film holders using Garolite XX as the dark slides. They are not light proof. Some testing revealed sunlight exposes the film in as little as 15 seconds leaving the film splotchy.

If there is a plastic that works like the old plastic dark slides I will replace all the dark slides on my 20 holders. Michael please keep us informed.

That is precisely why I am going to test this material for rigidity and light tightness before I proceed. The initial discussions with the distributor sound very encouraging, but the proof will be when it is field tested. More shortly. I will be completely transparent on all of the the specifics at the appropriate time. Cheers!

[Keith Pitman]

After several trips to various plastic shops I believe I have found a suitable place where the correct dark slide material can be sourced.

I am having them cut me an 8x10 dark slide out of what appears to be the optimal material and after testing it I will be likely having several dozen made once I get prices and figure out the top tabs. I will report back later.


Michael,

Regarding the top tabs, attached is a picture of a Chamonix holder. The tabs are integral to and part of the slide itself (which is carbon fiber). The tabs is die cut at the end. The holes are there to improve the ability to grip the thin material. I added the silver paint so I would have a “white” side.

[Greg]

Michael,

Regarding the top tabs, attached is a picture of a Chamonix holder. The tabs are integral to and part of the slide itself (which is carbon fiber). The tabs is die cut at the end. The holes are there to improve the ability to grip the thin material. I added the silver paint so I would have a “white” side.

After ruining 2 sheets of 11x14" film (ouch $$), I bought a Brother P-touch Label maker. Now all my Chamonix 11x14 dark slides are numbered (white on black) on both sides and labeled (black on white) on one side with the word "EXPOSED". The labels have lasted for over a year now without signs of coming off.

[Michael Kadillak]

Michael,

Regarding the top tabs, attached is a picture of a Chamonix holder. The tabs are integral to and part of the slide itself (which is carbon fiber). The tabs is die cut at the end. The holes are there to improve the ability to grip the thin material. I added the silver paint so I would have a “white” side.

Thanks Keith. That image is of great assistance

I shipped the sample dark slide to the plastic fabrication company earlier today and hope that they can use a CNC cutter that would easily just cut the tab in the body of the dark slide over which it would be easy to rivet a white / dark tab on each side. The objective here is to keep the costs down to a minimum as affordability is a primary driver on equal footing with functionality.

I can anticipate that if the issue can be solved for 8x10 replacement dark slides it would be readily scaleable for other formats such as 5x7, 4x5 etc.

[Michael Kadillak]

Update. I have found a suitable plastic material to make the dark slides out of. I have tested it once and an going to test it a second time just to make sure the initial results can be favorably replicated. It is light tight and sufficiently rigid for the task at hand.

My challenge at this time is finding the best way to cut the material to the precise proportions required for this application.

If anyone has any suggestions on the best way to cut this material that is 1/32" thick, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks!

[Tin Can]

Ask the vendor first how to cut, then the manufacturer.

Laser, waterjet, both somewhat complicated to access.

I would try a metal shear and a bulk paper sheer.

http://www.custompartnet.com/wu/sheet-metal-shearing

https://www.amazon.com/Professional-Guillotine-Desktop-Stack-Cutter/dp/B003D6JQ62

But this may work very well. https://youtu.be/iTgxDlgOXLc

Can't wait to read your results!

[Michael Kadillak]

Update on the quest for dark slide replacement material.

I completed a fairly dimensional test of the plastic sheet material that appeared to be a perfect candidate. I took three sheets of the material and performed three individual image making comparative tests on a holder where one side I used the original dark slide and the other side of the 8x10 holder I used the plastic replacement material. On each image I allowed each side of the holder to be open to the sun for a reasonable period of time - consistent with normal field operations. I made three separate exposures one per double sided holder, processed the negatives and put them on the light table.

Unfortunately and much to my disappointment, even though the plastic material looks light tight, I can see areas in the replacement slide negative where the light worked its way through the dark slide material in varying proportions and had an adverse impact on the negative. This has to be a random event having to do with the manner with with this replacement material is manufactured. I was using 400 speed film and although 90% of the negative looks fine, the section that is slightly fogged is visually obvious. As a result I must conclude that the material that appeared to be so promising making a dark slide replacement is not suitable for the task at hand.

At this stage I feel we should see if through the forum we can see if anyone has a contact with Fidelity in some way so we can attempt to gleam their material source for dark slides. The other alternative would be to see if the English company making holders and cameras has a material source. I could not see a way to communicate with them.

I gave it a good go but the results are what they are. The material I used was a phenolic plastic material. I see this only as a temporary setback. We will collectively figure this out.

Thanks!

[Michael Kadillak]

The Intrepid Camera Company has a video showing them using a CNC machine to cut dark slides. I would suspect the company uses similar proportions for dark slide thickness and producing a simple replacement dark slide for Fidelity 8x10 holders should be an easy buck for them since they are already gear up for it. Anyone have any contacts at Intrepid Camera?

[Daniel Stone]

I would use anodized aluminum sheet material, TBH. If this is something that we could get a group buy together on, I could see about making up a prototype for such.

The benefit of the anodization process is that you can etch the aluminum BEFORE anodizing, so a semi-matte surface is achieved, which will help in reducing the chance of extra reflections... Matte is good IMO.
The benefit of using aluminum is that it is more robust than the plastic, albeit it might add just a little bit more weight.

Any takers? I can really only see this being cost-effective per-slide if we can get at least 100 pieces together.

-Dan

(EDIT): Upon looking through my 8x10 holders, one actually has metal slides. They are .030" anodized aluminum. They are quite rigid, and frankly, are what I could want in all my 8x10 holders if I were still shooting the format.

[Daniel Stone]

Here's a picture of the slide I referenced above ^^.

https://i.imgur.com/3MgSbYh.jpg

Looks to be from the factory. I would go with the Chamonix-style ends(simple holes in the ends, but possibly masked on one side so there is a "white side" and a "black side". Not hard to do with the right polyester masking tape.

[Tin Can]

Why would black anodized aluminum be necessary? Why matte?

Are there reflections inside a film holder?

Would a reflective outside surface be cooler temperature?

How many variations in size for 8X10, 11x14 film darkslides?

Isn't a darkslide a creator of darkness and not necessarily dark?

Or is it just 'traditional'?

[Michael Kadillak]

Why would black anodized aluminum be necessary? Why matte?

Are there reflections inside a film holder?

Would a reflective outside surface be cooler temperature?

How many variations in size for 8X10, 11x14 film darkslides?

Isn't a darkslide a creator of darkness and not necessarily dark?

Or is it just 'traditional'?

As I see it there are four fundamental challenges with this objective given the thickness (1/30 to 1/32") of the original dark slide. 1) Must be not allow any light transmission. 2) The material and be matt black for reflection reasons. 3) Must be rigid and maintain this perfectly flat condition particularly on the bottom end for ease of insertion into the receiving flap end and 4) Must be cost effective to the consumers.

Obviously aluminum would be a great material but getting it anodized and cut could run into large quantities to make it work. My Toyo 8x10 film holder dark slides feel like aluminum, but my Fidelity plastic ones that look exactly like the prior post I believe are plastic. I was hoping to keep the costs per dark slide under $20 but that may not be possible.

[chris_4622]

I had some aluminum left over from a job that is the right thickness so I made some dark slides from it and tried it. Yes it doesn't allow light through it but I had some light leaking through the light trap. It could be it's because my light traps aren't so good but I don't have leaks through the traps using garrolite xx, just through the material itself.

[Daniel Stone]

Why would black anodized aluminum be necessary? Why matte? You could use any material, but aluminum is relatively inexpensive(so finalized cost to customer would be lower), matte to reduce chance of increased internal reflections.

Are there reflections inside a film holder? Yes, more than you would think

Would a reflective outside surface be cooler temperature? No

How many variations in size for 8X10, 11x14 film darkslides? My suggestion for 8x10 replacement slides(possibly even for 5x7 as well, seeing that these are less common and easier to replace a slide than the entire holder, compared to 4x5 where it's the total opposite, even more so for 8x10)

Isn't a darkslide a creator of darkness and not necessarily dark? It needs to be completely opaque, for obvious reasons :p

Or is it just 'traditional'? Nothing traditional about photography. I would prefer aluminum anyhow, as it has a lower tendency to generate static electricity during withdrawal and insertion, compared to plastic slides(plastic->plastic contact vs metal->plastic)

[Daniel Stone]

Anyone interested, I'm at my shop today and drew up some sample files. This one shown is simply made from paper, but could easily be routed out from MDF at my friend's shop so I could have a blank routing guide/template for producing these. Lemme know! On the pull slides, what do you guys think in terms of design? I want to make sure these will still allow the use of the retaining clips(although I personally prefer rubber bands :P)

https://i.imgur.com/3CV2Yox.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Z2InbnJ.jpg

[Michael Kadillak]

Anyone interested, I'm at my shop today and drew up some sample files. This one shown is simply made from paper, but could easily be routed out from MDF at my friend's shop so I could have a blank routing guide/template for producing these. Lemme know! On the pull slides, what do you guys think in terms of design? I want to make sure these will still allow the use of the retaining clips(although I personally prefer rubber bands :P)

https://i.imgur.com/3CV2Yox.jpg

Awesome Daniel.

The design of the top tabs I believe should be offset from center to one side of the dark slide so you can always get a clean grab of them to individually grab when they are offset. I am thinking about applying an exposure tab on the dark slide and returning the slide in its original orientation to maintain the offset rather than the conventional white/black system. The Intrepid video showed they decided to drill three holes in the top of the tab I guess to make it easier to hold. I was looking at the entry edge of the dark slide and it had a slight curve to it obviously to ensure a complete entry into the holder.

I believe that if we can find a product that would function properly this would be a very good product for large format photographers. I personally take considerable care of my holders but they get considerable use and if a dark slide cracks and becomes inoperable there is no Plan B. Testing as I found out is critical to the process to ensure they work properly.



https://i.imgur.com/Z2InbnJ.jpg

[tgtaylor]

How long do dark slides last under "normal" use before they need to be replaced? I know this is a subjective question but this thread got me into thinking about when I will need tp replace mine. I bought 5 new 8x10 Fidelity Elite holders back in 2011 and 5 new Toyo 8x10 holders in 2014. I'm careful when using them and store all 10 in a padded film holder case when not in use. New Fidelity replacement dark slides haven't been available for a while and I just checked the B&H website and the Toyo 8x10 dark slide is marked as discontinued.

Thomas

[Luis-F-S]

Depending on your age, they may need to replace you first. I have 19 8x10 holders that I bought used, and then bought 3 replacement slides. All slides were in good shape when I bought them and all still are. I'm also careful with the holders and I don't shoot 10 8x10 sheets every day. In 30 years, I've not needed to replace any dark slides in any of my holders down to 4x5. I think people get "worried" and start creating solutions for a problem before one exists. L

[Daniel Stone]

Thomas,

It really boils down to how one treats their equipment. Bang it around, it won't last as long as if you give it extra care. But for the most part, film holders are pretty robust, but I've often had the most problems with 8X10 and 5x7 holders when it comes to the dark slides and light traps. Cracked slides or faulty light traps. Unfortunately, light traps can't really be replaced with the plastic holders, but dark slides can.

[B.S.Kumar]

New Fidelity replacement dark slides haven't been available for a while and I just checked the B&H website and the Toyo 8x10 dark slide is marked as discontinued.

Toyo 4x5 and 8x10 film holders and replacement dark slides have NOT been discontinued. I can supply as many as anyone needs.

Kumar

[Jim Andrada]

I'm still using 5 x 7 holders that I bought new in 1970 so they're almost 50 years old and still work just fine.

[Max Grew]

The Intrepid Camera Company has a video showing them using a CNC machine to cut dark slides. I would suspect the company uses similar proportions for dark slide thickness and producing a simple replacement dark slide for Fidelity 8x10 holders should be an easy buck for them since they are already gear up for it. Anyone have any contacts at Intrepid Camera?

Hello, our dark slides are made from 0.9mm black FR4, its not exactly a cheap material but if you buy it by the pallet then its not too bad... we tested a lot of different materials for dark slides and found FR4 (very similar to G10 but a bit cheaper as it is more common) is basically the perfect material for them. it would also appear that it is what many other manufactures also used/use. our 8x10 dark slides are 209mm wide x 298mm long, with a 80x10mm off centre tab at the top.

We aren't currently able to do custom work due to demand but it is something we could look at in the future, the thought of many film holders not being used due to damaged dark slides is not great and we would be keen to get them back up and running. If it is any help, other materials that worked well were 0.9mm aluminium, this is light proof as is but you may wish to have it anodised black, or if you can find it 0.9mm high carbon ABS, not common but works well.

here is a little video of us making dark slides if anyone is interested in the process,

https://vimeo.com/253136194

[chaspics]

I have several 11x14 holders that have Stainless Steel darkslides. Consider a local home improvement store such as Home Depot for sheet metal. It is what I will be using when I build some XL holders for an 11x14 and 16x20 view cameras I'm fabricating.

Chas

[Tin Can]

I have several 11x14 holders that have Stainless Steel darkslides. Consider a local home improvement store such as Home Depot for sheet metal. It is what I will be using when I build some XL holders for an 11x14 and 16x20 view cameras I'm fabricating.

Chas

Do you paint them black? If so, with what?

[Michael Kadillak]

Hello, our dark slides are made from 0.9mm black FR4, its not exactly a cheap material but if you buy it by the pallet then its not too bad... we tested a lot of different materials for dark slides and found FR4 (very similar to G10 but a bit cheaper as it is more common) is basically the perfect material for them. it would also appear that it is what many other manufactures also used/use. our 8x10 dark slides are 209mm wide x 298mm long, with a 80x10mm off centre tab at the top.

We aren't currently able to do custom work due to demand but it is something we could look at in the future, the thought of many film holders not being used due to damaged dark slides is not great and we would be keen to get them back up and running. If it is any help, other materials that worked well were 0.9mm aluminium, this is light proof as is but you may wish to have it anodised black, or if you can find it 0.9mm high carbon ABS, not common but works well.

here is a little video of us making dark slides if anyone is interested in the process,

https://vimeo.com/253136194

Thanks for taking the time to respond Max. Sent you a PM.

By chance did you guys take the proportions from the Fidelity Holder that is out of business as the dimensions look very similar. Kudos to your comment about keeping holders in service which is consistent with your business objective.

When might you guys have some machine time to take orders and make a run for dark slides? Seems like it would be nothing more than what was demonstrated on the video. I would be in for at least a couple of dozen. Looks forward to more dialog on this topic.

[docw]

Any movement on this? I would love to be able to make some dark slide replacements.

[chaspics]

Randy,
Sorry I haven't responded sooner. I get a lot of email. Mine aren't painted, just shiny metal. Considering their application, they are no where near the film during exposure, so reflection shouldn't be a factor. I see no point in painting them beyond esthetics and to minimize tarnishing. So many are black because of the material they're made from. Good luck with your project!
Chas

[Michael Kadillak]

Any movement on this? I would love to be able to make some dark slide replacements.

I have had a number of interactions with the Intrepid Camera Company as I feel that they are the optimal resource for Fidelity / Lisco dark slide replacements. It is very clear to me that 1) they have the optimal material and 2) they have the capability to execute as it is in their wheel house.

Here is the challenge for the independent individuals that want to go down this road themselves. Finding the correct dark slide material is both challenging and costly. Been there and done that. Being in a position where one can purchase a quantity of the optimal dark slide material is the key that unlocks the options to the objective here and Intrepid has solved this challenge. I believe that when Intrepid Camera Company gets ahead of their internal requirements they will be able to cut replacement dark slides for 8x10 film holders. I am willing to be patient because they are enterprising people that are doing great things to promote 8x10 and 4x5 photography.

[Tin Can]

Anybody check Fidelity DS size to the known Intrepid production size...

[Michael Kadillak]

Anybody check Fidelity DS size to the known Intrepid production size...

Have not gone to that degree of query since Intrepid claimed their current inability to take on this task was inhibited due to internal time line goals. When Intrepid Camera gets out of their back logged condition, I expect this dialog as per your question will in fact take place. They are committed to improving 8x10 photography and should rise to the occasion when it works. I am deciding to be patient rather than trying to go down this road independently.