Thinking of photo school?

[Al Seyle]

For anyone interested in Brooks Institute:

Brooks students express frustration

By John Scheibe, jscheibe@VenturaCountyStar.com
July 29, 2005

Brooks Institute of Photography students met with the school's president Thursday afternoon at the Ventura campus and demanded that he be more upfront with them about a threat by state regulators to close the famed school.

"You need to level with us and stop treating us like children," one student told Brooks President Greg Strick after he told some 350 students he was sad that the report by state regulators might make them less focused on their studies.

Inspectors from the Bureau for Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education alleged in a report released earlier this month that Brooks' recruiters have consistently lied to prospective students about the type of jobs they could expect to get after graduation as well as the amount they would be paid.

Regulators say recruiters told students they could expect to earn $100,000 or more during their first year out of school. In fact, graduates earn an average of about $26,000 and leave the school owing $70,000 or more in loans, according to the report.

The bureau is threatening to shut down the for-profit school within two years unless it addresses these and other problems.

The school is owned by Career Education Corp., an Illinois-based company that has been the subject of investigations by the U.S. Justice Department and the Securities and Exchange Commission.

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Other than graduating from Brooks in in 1969 (when it was still owned by the Brooks family), I have no connection with the school.

[Matthew Cordery]

I find myself having a surprising lack of sympathy for the students really. Surely, the school shouldn't be making such outlandish claims but certainly it is the responsibility of the students to check claims made by the school. If anyone told me that, after on a few years of study, I could be making 100K, I'd certainly find out if what they were saying was true. I'd certainly ask to see some data supporting this claim, esp if I was going to be shelling out that kind of money. If a car dealer said "This car will get 100 mpg and make you breakfast", you'd think "Hmm, maybe that's just hype". Then again, maybe I live in a world where everyone wants to be a victim and I just don't know it.

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

LOL....I agree with Matthew completely. Chemical, structural, electronic engineers rarely get salaries just out of school in the 100k range, same goes for doctors and lawyers, what makes these kids think they are going to make more fresh out of college than these careers that require far more effort and years in school? Yeah some of them might become famous photographers, or after many years become photography directors for the movie industry, but it aint going to happen just after getting the diploma....I am sure of that.

[domenico Foschi]

Matthew, you are blaming the victim here.
There is a big difference between the promise the Brooks institute offers and the example you give, which is highly unrealistic.
The institute has made a claim that is untrue, period.

[ronald moravec]

The problem is there there are all kinds of these schools receiving government money, LOTS OF IT, which supliments the student`s tuition. Beauty and clothing design shools are two other examples. Same outlandish promises.

They are committing fraud on the students and the governmernt.

Sure the students should be smarter, but they are young kids easily fooled. And the money supplied by the the government is not government money, it is yours and mine as the government has no money of its own.

Shame, I never knew Brooks was one of the one in the business.

[Richard Boulware]

This subject really hits a sensitive spot with me.

While undergoing the four years of academic hell at the Art Center College of Design where I earned my BFA, we had many transfer students from that school up in Santa Barbara...and they washed out very quickly.

Later in my photography career, I left my huge studio...with custody of my two small children after a divorce, to become instructor and department head at a large art school with a photography department of 300 studens and a faculty of 14. (I could no longer operate my huge studio, with all the traveling...and my two small kids needed a Dad at home.) I had hired new, qualified faculty and overhauled the entire darkroom and view camera inventory, tripods, lighting, etc. I had hoped to re-energize the school and provide a quality photographic education. What a naive idealistic fool I was.

In about 18 months, it became clear to me that the school was using my award-winning career as a sales tool to lure new and naive students in to this expensive program...just for the 'bucks'!

When I tried to 'tighten the screws' and provide tougher academic standards and asked more in student performance, the administration balked, and after four years, we parted company. Although I was allowd to resign...I had no choice really, because I would have been fired. I was feeling like I was an accessory to a crime...

Schools like this take naive you people with stars in their eyes, and parents with hopes and dreams and large wallets, and rip them off. The tuition was NOT cheap...and yes there was public m0neys involved. Yours and mine.

Tuition revenue was the only item in the school's bottom line. Quality of education was not a priority consideration. This was in direct conflict with my basic philosophy which was....take a lot of tuition, and give a lot back, of equal value.

My school...Art Center gave me more than what I paid...which was a fortune, even with my G.I Bill moneys.

On my last day at this "school" I came home, burned my busines cards which listed me as 'director of photography', and took a two hour shower...to get the stink off, and I've never looked back.

"Let The Buyer Beware"

Richard Boulware

[Hans Berkhout]

May I assume that Matthew and Jorge are of student age/experience and just a bit more critical than other students?

[Alec Jones]

I too agree with Mathew and Jorge. It's a simple matter of personal responsibility. Sadly today, it seems everybody wants to blame somebody else if something doesn't go exactly as they expected it, whether or not that expectation was valid, reasonable or rational.

I don't excuse the school for "puffing" their product [the education], but the ultimate responsibility should be squarely with the students who didn't look behind the school's statements, talk with graduates, talk with professionals in the business, and talk to themselves ["is this a reasonable thing to expect?"]

I'll bet there was no "promise" by Brooks, only statements like "the earning potential of our graduates is ...". There is often two sides to these arguments. Don't automatically blame the institution first. Knowing how little common sense today's graduates acquire during their government [public school] education, I'd first suspect their expectations.

[Richard Schlesinger]

"If it sounds too good to be true it probably is."

I keep reading about how the army etc. is guilty of the same tactics in their recruiting. It's a wonderful wonderful world!

[Matthew Cordery]

I'm not saying that I don't share any sympathy with the students. Sure, I feel a bit sorry for them. However, I also had the benefit of having parents who actually taught me to think for myself and to look out for the other guy. Maybe that makes me overly skeptical but it's also kept most of my money in my wallet, even when I had precious little of it.

[paulr]

If you commit a fraud that only suckers fall for, sure you can blame them for being suckers, but you're still guilty of fraud. Why shouldn't the state go after the school for their deceptive practices?

[jnantz]

don't advertisers use this technique all the time to sell products ?

" if you buy this " .... " [ insert product] you will be beautiful, have lots of friends, drive an expensive car Et cetera ...

i kind of know that if i change toothpaste my life isn't going to change altogether ... the students should have done their homework before shifting the blame altogether to the school.

[Jim Ewins]

When the Fed's started their student loan program for so called vocational schools, there was a great motivation to get on the band wagon. Schools started to franchise and promises, like "pro-formas" became gilded. Some " old voc schools" got the feaver. Some of the kids just didn't pay off their loans so taxpayers lost money and some students learned a hard lesson. As the construction director for one national school, I could see the problems.

[paulr]

"don't advertisers use this technique all the time to sell products ?"

advertisers can imply anything they want. but if they lie outright, they're breaking the law.

[Matthew Cordery]

if they have evidence that they are breaking some law, fine (though I'd like to know if what the regulators say is true or not). the other question is: when did anyone promise anyone a job? after paying for a private college and grad school, i don't ever recall hearing anyone say 'after all this, you will be hired as a highly paid X after graduation'. lots of phd's driving cabs out there an they aren't suing anybody.
furthermore, any pro photographer i've ever talked to (including John Shaw) typically say things like 'there's about 3 people in this field making any money'. given the internet, i can easily look up the salary ranges for almost any job out there. i just looked up the median income for a photographer in the LA area and it's 51K. knowing these statistics, that's for someone with several years experience. coming right out of school, you can't expect to make that. now, if all the students want is for brooks to get fined and stop saying "you will get a 100K job when you graduate" (if that's what they are indeed saying" then fine, i agree with that. i can't agree that they deserve anything more than that though.

[John Cook]

It should come as no surprise to any professional that enrolling in any photo school as a career move these days is a singularly dumb idea. Robert Mitchum summed it up, talking about the fallacy of acting school: "Spending tens of thousands of dollars to study how to be tall".

Photographically, the party is over. Naive kids need to know that.

However, what IS news to me is that dear old Brooks is having trouble.

When I was enrolled in Art Center in the late 60's, I found it spooky, theoretical and ethereal. We spent a lot of time sitting around discussing whether yellow was a happier color than red. A bunch of hippie potheads.

Meanwhile, Brooks was busily teaching grunts the nuts and bolts of photography, such as how to remove zits from a wedding portrait.

A lot of mean-spirited petty politics instigated by Charles Potts drove many top people away from Art Center, some to Brooks. Several of us students longed to follow, but didn't.

But the main difference between the two schools in those days was that Art Center taught wonderful dreamy theory, but never dirtied its hands showing students how to actually earn a living. Brooks did, perhaps at the cost of appearing somewhat less lofty.

Poor Brooks. Nothing lasts forever.

[Randy_5116]

Read close. The schools generally state "....potential earnings of...", not guaranteed first-year earnings. Or ..."our graduates can expect to earn UP TO... their first year...". All it really takes to be a legally viable statement is "one" student making that. They may have already been in that field, recognized, and earning close to that prior to attending, and merely took the courses as a "refresher", but it still qualifies as "one student".

"There is a sucker born every minute..."

In this part of the country, there are welding schools everywhere you look, with commercials stating their "earning potential". Realistically, the typical graduate can expect to earn about the same rate of pay as a stock-clerk on an hourly basis. Their commercials state in a low tone and quickly "...with substantial overtime availability..." or some such disclaimer of guaranteed income and/or placement assistance. And just like the door-to-door salesman, they are looking for that "get-rich-quick, obsessive-compulsive buyer" that will pay twice the amount for half the goods.

Listen close and read the fine print. A smart cat always covers its own crap.

[paulr]

"The schools generally state "....potential earnings of...""

If that's what brooks is saying, then they're not breaking any laws. If they're saying "the average income is ..." and then making up a number, then they are.

[M Brian Mills]

I knew at one point that I wanted to attend school and study photography. I chose to not attend Brooks when I read a statement about the school that said, "No nude photography allowed." Though I have never shot a nude and don't know that I will I thought that having a rule like that made it an institution that I did not want to attend.
I did choose to attend San Francisco Art Institute. The recruiters told me about how Ansel Adams started the photography department so many years ago, but went on to say that he has no living legacy at the school. They also mentioned that Annie Leibovitz attended the school, but explained that at the time she was studying in the painting department and dropped out of the school. They have stories of tons of people like this, but always explained that the school was not the reason these people were anything special.
I think I selected the school because of their frankness which I greatly appreciate.
I agree that fraud is fraud, but I also think that too many people are too quick to point fingers when things don't go the way they want them to.
My best help before attending school again was in studying the book Why Art Cannot Be Taught by James Elkins. I'd recommend this book to anyone who does anything based in art or craft.

[John Cook]

Did I mention that $26,000 the Brooks graduates are averaging is for managing the photo department at the local Wal-Mart?

They are selling point-and-shoot digital cameras to secretaries to shoot themselves what their companies used to pay $100,000 per year for professional photographers to do with sheet film twenty-five years ago.

The end of an era has come and gone. It seems nobody noticed...

[Frank Petronio]

Photo schools, even at public institutions, exist to support facalty and facilities, not students. Even the "better" schools like RIT are much less selective than before, as the number of photo students continue to dwindle. Considering that almost 10,000 US students per year get a four year degree in photography, you have to ask yourself what happens to them all?

My advice is go to college for a good, broad, liberal education, and then, if they want to persue photography, learn from a place like the Maine Workshops, or self-assignments, or by working as an assistant. Photography by itself is a lousy major, and if you don't know very much about the rest of the world (History, Literature, Science) then what will you photograph?

Harry Challahan taught at RISD, and he had a good job, but to paraphrase him, he said something like "you can learn all you need to know about photography - at least enough to be a successful artist - within a year." Of course he taught lots of four-year majors but he had to pay the bills too.

[Craig Wactor]

My buddy is in her 1st semester at Brooks. Not too happy, either...

[Bruce Wehman]

Al, I too graduated in ’69 – Illustration major. I don’t remember you, but that was a long time ago. Boris Dobro, an instructor whom you no doubt remember well, used to say that if you didn’t have a love for photography, you weren’t going to make it, which sounded very noble and inspirational to those students who didn’t know Boris personally. What he was really saying, as tactfully as he could, was that personal satisfaction would probably be your only reward, while implying that it sure as hell wasn’t going to be money.

As long as I can remember, photography was never something that one did to get rich. But sadly that is a poor talking point for an admission recruiter.

What we are seeing here, I think, is yet another ethical lapse the likes of which are becoming increasingly common in the business world.

[GPS]

Only dudes have expectations of high $$ for having taken a photo school.

[paulr]

"My advice is go to college for a good, broad, liberal education, and then, if they want to persue photography, learn from a place like the Maine Workshops, or self-assignments, or by working as an assistant. Photography by itself is a lousy major, and if you don't know very much about the rest of the world (History, Literature, Science) then what will you photograph?"

It's interesting how many excellent photographers studied humanities in college. Robert Adams was actually an english lit professor.

I think trade school educations in general are a kind of time bomb. Look at what happened to a whole generation of people who went to technical school to learn programming. The whole industry got outsourced overseas, and they were left with nothing. There's a big, fundamental difference between an education and a trade, and the education is so much more flexible (not to mention interesting). Too many people find out the hard way.

I don't see anything wrong with studying art at a college that also teaches you about the world. It's the schools where you get your major in lighting and your minor in lens caps that are worrisome.

[Mark Sawyer]

"There's a big, fundamental difference between an education and a trade, and the education is so much more flexible (not to mention interesting). Too many people find out the hard way. "

Agreed, Paul. But I wonder, what do all those people really do with a BFA or MFA? The dream, I suppose, is to teach at a college-level program, but in Tucson, the University of Arizona turns out enough MFA's every year to fully staff both the University and community college photo faculty, and between the two, there's about one opening every five years, generally paying less than a high school teacher's salary...

A BFA is just sort of a prep degree before going for an MFA.

As wonderful as the experience of getting the education is, I suspect that for the majority of graduates, they have a degree in their hobby...

[Frank Petronio]

Nothing wrong with getting a degree in your hobby or art, so long as you understand it up front. It's the parents who end up paying - or the taxpayers who pick up the load defaults - that should know this upfront too.

[Frank Petronio]

Nothing wrong with getting a degree in your hobby or art, so long as you understand it up front. It's the parents who end up paying - or the taxpayers who pick up the loan defaults - that should know this upfront too.

[Frank Petronio]

Darn, I wish this forum had an edit function like the UBB ones.

[tim atherton]

"Agreed, Paul. But I wonder, what do all those people really do with a BFA or MFA? The dream, I suppose, is to teach at a college-level program, but in Tucson, the University of Arizona turns out enough MFA's every year to fully staff both the University and community college photo faculty, and between the two, there's about one opening every five years, generally paying less than a high school teacher's salary...

A BFA is just sort of a prep degree before going for an MFA.

As wonderful as the experience of getting the education is, I suspect that for the majority of graduates, they have a degree in their hobby..."

Mark,

I read recently that many major companies are starting to find they can't get enough interview candidates with good arts degrees (not limited to MFA's).

Over the last 10-20 years people have been encouraged to move over into to computer science/technical/maths, engineering, management and business type degrees etc.

But a huge amount of their technical work is now being outsourced to locations like India, where there are more than enough computer science and other degrees degrees of various sorts etc to go around.

And everyone and his dog is doing the same basic MBA under 50 different names (which they are increasingly fidning aren't providing what they are looking for).

As more and more of the technical and administrative work is being outsourced to people with the same degees and qualifictions who will work for a 10th of the wage of a US graduate, they are finding that what they need are creative and innovataive managers and thinkers - and they are finding those kind of people are the ones with arts degrees (fine art, music, literature etc) - of which there is becoming a shortage....

[Mark Sawyer]

I dunno, Tim. I just went to monstor.com and did a quick search for "MBA" and got "over 1000 results." A quick search under MFA got 58 results, and most were for "Medical Facilities Associate" or some other non-related TLA.

I'm not knocking the degree; I got my BFA in Photography as a Studio Art (University of Arizona, `81), and it all worked out okay with me. But I wonder whether I was one of the exceptions, and whether I could steer a student in that direcdtion with a clear conscience...

[Frank Petronio]

I know dozens or hundreds of MFAs, and I'm not impressed by many of them, at least from an employer's POV. The exciting and postive thing about the creative industry is that you don't need a MFA to get work or succeed. And that puts MFAs at nearly equal footing with the 18-year kids, at least in industries like advertising and entertainment.

In fact, I'd be fearful of hiring most MFAs in any profit-making venture... they been institutionalized and committized for too long...

[Mark Sawyer]

I disagree, Frank. Most of the MFA's I've known (maybe a couple dozen) have been bright, articulate, creative people. And they've shown quite a bit of commitment to go through seven years of college towards an at best uncertain end. They definitely have more to offer than your average 18-year-old. (Trust me on this one; I'm a high school teacher.)

Just wondering where they all go...

[Randy_5116]

I dunno guys. With four college-age females in the house, I have always adamantly told them to decide what it is you really enjoy doing, and would consider doing for the rest of your life, and pursue that avenue. Screw the money. Life is far too short to be wasted, hating what you have to do, day in and day out. If you are really happy with your occupation, you will find a way to make ends meet. One is a meterology major, lots of moving and next-to-no pay. One is med student, and one is in sports journalism and one photojournalist. BUT, they all are really interested and enjoy what they are doing. So for a degree in photography? If that is what you really enjoy, then go for it. Forget the get rich quick, retire at 35 as a millionaire hype sh**. If you enjoy shooting and wanna learn all you can, then go for it. And besides, a lot of major corps hire photogs as public relation personnel. Shot any factories for ads lately? Pretty fair bucks.

[Frank Petronio]

Umm, no, I haven't shot any factories for ads lately. Nor have I gone to Europe to shoot an annual report in the last 12 years, or have I sold enough stock photography to fund my retirement. Because 95% of those jobs are long GONE. Ask the pros who hang out here, like Ellis, etc.

If you look around mid-sized cities like Rochester, in the early 1990s there used to be fifty or so full-time, fairly properous commercial photographers who started out of school. Now there are at most a dozen left.

Maybe they're all hanging out with the MFAs?

[paulr]

"I dunno guys. With four college-age females in the house, I have always adamantly told them to decide what it is you really enjoy doing, and would consider doing for the rest of your life, and pursue that avenue. Screw the money."

I couldn't agree more. It's the people who want the money and want it now, that tend to pursue the trade school route (and I'm not lumping MFA programs with the commercial/technical photo schools. MFA programs have their own sets of problems, but I don't see anyone going there expecting easy money when they graduate).

People following what they love tend to go for real educations. At least most of the people I know.

"Most of the MFA's I've known (maybe a couple dozen) have been bright, articulate, creative people."

This has been my experience too. Sadly, many of them have also been unemployed people ... or people who eventually end up doing work that they don't need their degree for.

One friend of mine, a talented photographer with an MFA in photography from University of Indiana, now works as a ski patrollman in vermont. He applied for a teaching job at his alma mater. He was undeterred when he found out that 600 people applied for that one job, because he assumed that most would be unqualified. But when he asked his old professor how many were actually qualified for the position, the answer was, "all of them."

I have seen one strong benefit to getting an MFA from a top program (like Yale). The connections students have when they come out of there make their lives a lot easier. By the time someone graduates, they're on first name terms with many of the top curators in the world, and are part of an old boy network that can get phone calls made and letters of recommendation written easily. None of this can turn a bad artist into a star, but it can remove a lot of obstacles and create a lot of good luck ... both immensely valuable in such an overcrowded, competetive world.

[Frank Petronio]

Yeah, but Yale is $40K plus per year, and you gotta be decent to get in, which means getting a good undergrad degree too. So for a $200K investment, you could probably do a Clifford Ross and build a Gigapixel camera AND have enough left over to take a helluvalot of curators to lunch.

Or become a black, islamic, disabled, lesbian with 1/32 Native American heritage. That's what REALLY gets you a teaching job.

[Mark Sawyer]

(sshhhhhhhh... nobody rise to the bait... it's a trap... )

[John Cook]

Throwing all caution (and politics) aside, there is a tiny grain of truth in Frank's tongue-in-cheek observation. At least here in Massachusetts.

When I was in public elementary school during the 1950's the teaching profession was totally controlled by very stern, thoroughly humorless, highly disciplined Irish spinsters. Scared the wits out of us. The teachers' lounge was an absolute Sanctum Sanctorum from which all mere mortals were barred. Just lace curtains, leather furniture and the scent of tea and lavender.

Walking past my old elementary school the other day, I was surprised to hear Salsa music blasting out the windows from the formerly sacred lounge. And I could swear someone yelled, "Arriba".

I must visit the local Catholic cemetery one day soon. Bet you can clearly hear Miss Murphy, Miss Kennedy, Miss Lynch, Miss O'Grady and both Miss Fitzgeralds turning in their grave.

[M Brian Mills]

I graduated with nearly $100,000.00 in debt from SFAI and am doing photography as a pass-time more than as a career and I am NOT disappointed in the money I spent. Sure, I have a background in IT and make money through that avenue instead of through photography, but my passions are not limited to only one thing and I have a nearly equal passion for IT work as I do for photography.

[Kirk Gittings]

According to US News and World Report, who does allot of school rankings that are considered by some people to be credible, the three top photo graduate schools are The School of the Art Institute of Chicago, Yale, and The University of New Mexico in that order. I have had the fortune to teach part time at two of those schools, combined for19 years, SAIC currently for 8 years and I did my undergraduate degree from UNM. I also hold an MFA from the University of Calgary which cost me nothing but time. They actually paid me to go to school (via awards, scholarships etc.)

But I make my main living doing commercial architectural photography for which I learned virtually nothing in school and for which you need no degrees.

I don't regret the schooling. I learned much about photo history etc. and met some phenominal artists and it makes for great networking within "the Club". It also is useful in getting grants because it makes you look more credible to some people.

Is it necessary? Absolutely not. Is it useful? Yes. Would I do it again? In a heartbeat. It was a great time to define and focus on my personal work with few distractions.

I recommend schools that have a strong art and practicle sides like RIT and Arizona State, because teaching jobs are rare and you can always do commercial work if you have the skills.

[paulr]

If anyone's considering an MFA program, Massachusetts College of art should be added to Kirk's list. Several years ago when I was thinking about a degree, I narrowed it down to massart and yale. Two advantages of massart are that it's less psychologically brutal than yale, and being a state school it's cheap in comparison. 10 years ago it was cheap even for a state school.

No matter what, regardless of what anyone here or at a magazine says, you absolutely must talk to students at the programs and look at their work. Many programs have strong opinions (or religious convictions) about what a picture should look like, and if theirs clashes with yours, you could be in for years of suffering. I've met some casualties of this phenomenon, and their stories were ugly ones.

[Kirk Gittings]

"Many programs have strong opinions (or religious convictions) about what a picture should look like, and if theirs clashes with yours, you could be in for years of suffering. I've met some casualties of this phenomenon, and their stories were ugly ones."

This precisely explains why after my under-graduate degree, I had a meltdown for about 6 years during which I time I couldn't make an image. Finally I started paying attention to my own aesthetic and started doing large format b&w landscape, ( a genre that was considered passe at UNM by dept. chair, Van Dueron Coke) and never looked back.

[paulr]

One of the people I met with a similar horror story also came out of UNM, and had also wanted to do landscapes. I suspect this happens a lot there, since they were the first MFA program, and since so many landscapists have been associated with them in the past.

I'd hate to argue with anyone named Van Dueron Coke.

[Mark Sawyer]

Actually, it's Van Deren Coke.

[paulr]

That's not quite as scary. But close.