Lens design: super-sharp center gradually fading out.

[penauts]

Hi to all, I'm searching for a lens that will produce images that are super sharp in the middle and gradually unsharp toward the edges, like those pictures:

http://d32dm0rphc51dk.cloudfront.net/N5fMCKWhHte9ADgdsWAPlg/larger.jpg
https://www.artnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/19mag-19mann.t_CA3-master1050.jpg
http://i.pinimg.com/736x/e6/13/85/e6138588a137592c2ec95abb5575ae26--sally-mann-immediate-family-top-photographers.jpg

I read discording opinions about Rapid Rectilinear-type lenses, someone saying that those are bad at the margins and just less bad in the middle. Can you suggest me what to look for?
Thank you

[Corran]

Petzval

[Jac@stafford.net]

Petzval

++1, Petzval

[penauts]

Wow, that's exactly what I was looking for
thank you again!

[mdarnton]

The examples you show were probably shot with something like a Tessar working on a size far beyond it's design. I suspect a Petzval would be more unsharp away from the center than you wanted. Once a Tessar gets out to the size it's designed to cover, things go bad quickly. Though some articles say Sally Mann worked with old "broken" lenses, this sounds like something a writer, not a photographer, would say. Pictures of her working show a variety of lenses. You might also look at photos shot with a modern Wollaston lens, but like the Petzval, these go much worse much faster than the examples you showed, which really aren't too bad.

[penauts]

Oh ok, that would explain the severe vignetting

[mdarnton]

Here's a thread you might find interesting:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.photo.equipment.large-format/t8a_FUREFZQ

Also notice my additions to my previous comment....

[Corran]

The curved plane of focus in the second example is what makes me think Petzval. It could be swing but it seems like the tarp-covered thing behind the girl would be in focus then. Perhaps a slower, more mundane Petzval with a bit more DOF than your super-fast portrait ones that would show much more swirl/aberrations? Just guessing. I always thought SM used Petzvals for a lot of her work but I must admit I am not sure.

[Greg]

Got the same effect with a Fujinon SF lens without one of its aperture disks. The coverage of these optics are huge (250mm actually covered 11x14 and maybe even more) but sharpness quickly degrades. A Petzval a serious option but at ten times or more the price of a Fujinon SF.

[mdarnton]

Surely a Petzval used right out to its edge should be showing quite a bit of swirly, right?

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

Those Sally Mann images you linked to are not from a Petzval. I think you could get them from a Rapid Rectilinear, but mdarnton's suggestion of a Tessar (or even a Dialyte) might be closer to the mark.

[jp]

The third one looks kinda petzval. The first two could be tessars used beyond their intended field of view but I can't be sure. RRs could also do something similar. Petzval will have a narrower sharp middle than the other options. The field of view width/angle in each photo might provide some clue. Try some different lenses (resell for same price as you get them), or attend a workshop or gathering where such lenses are used.

[penauts]

thanx to all!

[goamules]

Petzval. I've never seen a Tessar or RR with a severely curved field, they're flat. These shots exhibit coma, curved field, and spherical aberrations. That's a Petzval.

[mdarnton]

I think the OP should look at Petzval shots on the web and see if that's what he wants. I really don't see that look in these shots at all.

[xkaes]

I can only speak to the Soft-Focus lenses, such as the Fujinon SF and Rodenstock Imagon -- which came in different focal lengths and Image Circles. The picture originally provided has three concerns:

#1 -- Sharp center. How sharp is defined and how far away from the center needs to be "sharp"?

#2 -- Soft edges. How soft is defined and how far out from the edge needs to be "soft"?

#3 -- Light fall-off/cut-off. How sharp an edge, and how far out?

The Fujinon SF and Rodenstock Imagon can produce some of these effects by varying the f-stop and discs -- as already mentioned. But there are many other ways of accomplishing it, as well. Just one is close-up lenses -- which vary considerably in their results. Check out:

http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/close-up.htm

Also, see the current thread -- "Homemade lens for 8X10"

[Pere Casals]

Surely a Petzval used right out to its edge should be showing quite a bit of swirly, right?

Hello Michael

The 3rd photo has some moderate swirl bokeh... http://i.pinimg.com/736x/e6/13/85/e6138588a137592c2ec95abb5575ae26--sally-mann-immediate-family-top-photographers.jpg

But it can be a Dagor or any old type, at the end it is very easy provocating swirl bokeh...

[Pere Casals]

I'm a devoted admirer of Sally Mann's work.

Beyond inspiration, a great feature of his work is that she didn't need any special gear. Multicoating ? APO ? fancy film ? lp/mm ? geared movements ?

If inspiration is there then gear is irrelevant. When one has a Gear Acquisition Syndrome attack viewing some of the Sally's photogragraphs is like a medicine.

[jp]

There are quite a few 1920's-1930's triplets which will have some swirl and softness on the edges. They are not crazy sharp in the center like a peztval. I first noticed this in a Yashica-C tlr I have which was low end compared to their later efforts. Now I have some LF lenses that are triplet. The Fuji SF is not sure if it wants to be a triplet or a SF lens. I have a B&L Sigmar triplet that gets swirly at the edge but has big coverage. Cheap projector lenses are sometimes triplet without apertures and are sharper. Cooke has some expensive triplets.

[Richard Wasserman]

I am also a an admirer of Ms. Mann—both her photography and writing (Hold Stilll is a wonderful biography.) This is a trailer for the film Blood Ties about Sally Mann's Immediate Family series— https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUc4D8T5aeE It contains glimpses of her camera and lens, looks like nothing special is going on here in terms of equipment. The talent and vision on the other hand are quite special.

[xkaes]

The Fuji SF is not sure if it wants to be a triplet or a SF lens.

The Fujinon SF lenses are triplets -- without the discs -- and you can control the effect by stopping down. And with the discs, you can adjust the SF effect. If I am correct, the Imagons are two element optics, and work similarly -- with and without discs. But a good achromatic or apochromatic close-up lens -- adapter to a shutter -- can accomplish much the same:

http://fuzzcraft.com/achromats.html

The black edges can be accomplished in many ways, either on camera or on enlarger.

[EdSawyer]

Much of her Immediate Family work is just lenses shot on a much larger format of film than they were designed for. They effectively become wide-angles, and you can see it in the way they fall off. Great stuff, her best work by far, IMNSHO.

[Pere Casals]

I am also a an admirer of Ms. Mann—both her photography and writing (Hold Stilll is a wonderful biography.) This is a trailer for the film Blood Ties about Sally Mann's Immediate Family series— https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUc4D8T5aeE It contains glimpses of her camera and lens, looks like nothing special is going on here in terms of equipment. The talent and vision on the other hand are quite special.


ART21: How much time did it take you to master the technique?
MANN: I never mastered it.

:)

https://www.artsy.net/article/art21-sally-mann-collodion-process

The greatest artists are normally reluctant to accept how good is their work.



Much of her Immediate Family work is just lenses shot on a much larger format of film than they were designed for. They effectively become wide-angles, and you can see it in the way they fall off. Great stuff, her best work by far, IMNSHO.

Also a lot of dipped glass... !