Ilford Galerie Fiber dev'd w/ Ansco 130, Neutol WA, or Dektol, thoughts?

[Corran]

Just curious if anyone has comments on the tonality, color, or whatever of Ilford Galerie (G2 or 3) in either Ansco 130, Neutol WA, or Dektol?

I'm giving Galerie a try to see how I like it. I have never used a graded paper before. These are the 3 developers I have on hand - though I would consider something else if it's imperative.

Of course I'll try a variety of things but just thought I would ask.

[Jim Noel]

Expose the same negative on each and see which you like.

[Corran]

Yes, I know...just curious to hear other's thoughts and experience.

[esearing]

It may be more beneficial to make a scientific guess at the expected outcomes and then determine if you achieve the expected results.
I would expect that the Neutol WA will produce a flatter/warmer image than the other two - unless you expose longer and/or develop longer.
Never used the Ansco 130 but I would expect it to be deeper blacks.
I hate dektol. Not because of its tonality but because of its short lifespan .

While you are at it - Try split developing - 1/3 time in cold developer (or until blacks form) + rinse + time in warm developer to completion.
and other way around. Note its effect on midtones.

[bob carnie]

I use Ilford Galerie paper- digital paper but basically a grade 4 and I have used dectol and the Ilford Multigrade I like them both..

[Corran]

Thanks Eric. I did think that Neutol WA was a softer contrast developer when I've used it. So normally that can be easily compensated with a higher filter, but does developing graded papers longer just increase the contrast? Also, your cold/warm dev idea is interesting. I have not heard of that. What effect does temperature have other than slower/faster dev time? I very rarely check temps on my paper developer. Right now in the basement it's probably mid 60s or lower due to the outside temps.

As for Dektol...it leaves me cold, and I'm not talking about the paper tone. It works fine I guess for Ilford MGIV but doesn't excite me. I generally don't have any qualms with its shelf life but actually last night I went to print some contact prints and it had died out of no where. That's usually how it goes - sudden death, no warning. On the other hand, Neutol is only good for maybe 2-3 days tops, if even that. Probably more like one print session. And it's expensive, even diluted at the higher dilutions.

I LOVE Ansco 130 with Ilford Warmtone. I am interested to see if either that or Neutol WA makes a really significantly warm/brown image on the Galerie paper.

[bob carnie]

I am surprised that two of the developers that I have used for the last 27 years leave you cold, are you maybe looking for a silver bullet here??

[Corran]

A good friend and mentor of mine pretty much only uses Dektol. I can't fault him for it and the prints looks good. Yes, there's always an element of "silver bullet" searching I suppose but I do love to try different things. It's fun. I do absolutely think my prints with Ilford Warmtone dev'd in Ansco 130 look objectively "better" than my Ilford MGIV dev'd in Dektol. There's clearly a difference. Also MGIV + Dektol is definitely a bit on the cool side in paper tone. Neutol WA gives it a bit more neutrality. Of course all this is meaningless since MGIV isn't made anymore, but I haven't used any Classic to compare (I have two boxes on the shelf though once I finish up this last box of MGIV).

Do you think Dektol is just the perfect paper developer? Do you think there is nothing better?

[Sal Santamaura]

...I am interested to see if...Neutol WA makes a really significantly warm/brown image on the Galerie paper.Absent a selenium dunk, Galerie processed in Neutol WA will result in image tone with just a hint of warmth, accompanied by the usual slight green tinge.

[Corran]

I do usually tone with selenium, but not to completion.

When you say "usual green tinge," what does that mean? I do not want green. Which part causes green tinges?

[bob carnie]

A good friend and mentor of mine pretty much only uses Dektol. I can't fault him for it and the prints looks good. Yes, there's always an element of "silver bullet" searching I suppose but I do love to try different things. It's fun. I do absolutely think my prints with Ilford Warmtone dev'd in Ansco 130 look objectively "better" than my Ilford MGIV dev'd in Dektol. There's clearly a difference. Also MGIV + Dektol is definitely a bit on the cool side in paper tone. Neutol WA gives it a bit more neutrality. Of course all this is meaningless since MGIV isn't made anymore, but I haven't used any Classic to compare (I have two boxes on the shelf though once I finish up this last box of MGIV).

Do you think Dektol is just the perfect paper developer? Do you think there is nothing better?

No not necessarily , but I love PMK Pyro and many hear say it stinks compared to Pyrocat.. I just am a type of person that once I find something I can work with I stick with it.. Also as a professional printer you can understand that my inventory needs are off the charts .

[bob carnie]

I do usually tone with selenium, but not to completion.

When you say "usual green tinge," what does that mean? I do not want green. Which part causes green tinges?

I actually like the green tinge Sal is talking about, probably why I like Ilford Warmtone Lith prints... they are green untoned.

[Gudmundur Ingolfsson]

Ansco 130 is a favorite. I recently used it to develop Ilford Multigrade FB cooltone with great results. Very nice cootone, long development times possible without fogging and the 130 almost lasts for ever.

[Corran]

Yes, I can understand you have very different needs from the business needs perspective Bob. If I had to pick one thing today to use forever it'd be that Warmtone/130 combo. But I haven't tried that many combinations of paper/developer to have a broad perspective on the relative differences or pros/cons.

[Bruce Barlow]

Galerie is going to look a little warm in Ansco 130. Pretty much everything does. It will be more neutral in Dektol, and benefits from about 2 minutes of selenium toning at about a 1:20 dilution. If you compare two Dektol prints, one in the toner and one outside, when the toning print starts to change color, the untoned print will look a little green. That's when you know the toned print is cooked enough. Much more time in the toner and it will turn a garish purple. Blecch (a technical term).

That said, when I tested paper and developers Galerie was always near the top. Couldn't beat Forte Polygrade V, but on the other hand Galerie is still made.

Mix a gallon of Dektol and split into 20oz. Coke bottles filled to the brim and it will never die. Single-serving portions...

No experience with Neutol. Sorry.

I actually have the prints, 130 and Dektol, Galerie Grade 2, toned and untoned. Come look. We'll eat lobster.

[bob carnie]

Yes, I can understand you have very different needs from the business needs perspective Bob. If I had to pick one thing today to use forever it'd be that Warmtone/130 combo. But I haven't tried that many combinations of paper/developer to have a broad perspective on the relative differences or pros/cons.

Well its not only a business perspective... its all about picking something and working with it.. For example I make lith prints using Ilford Warmtone... most lith printers historically will say Ilford Warmtone does not lith.. Its a matter of working with materials and seeing how to manipulate your base materials .

Another Example... Historically most printers will say that Pt Pd prints do not have a great DMax,, but if you take it one step further and add gum overs Pt Pd prints can exhibit the same Dmax as Silver.

I have never used Lodima paper for example,,, many people say its the best paper since sliced bread... its all subjective... Ilford Matt paper is to flat,, but tone it with sepia and look again..

I am always surprised by what I see.

[Corran]

Thanks for your thoughts Bruce. With the Dektol I've always mixed the stock gallon and then separated out 1/3 of it into a different gallon bottle and filled it up for a 1:2 dilution. The stock sits until I run through the diluted gallon (I use a gallon for 16x20 or larger prints), and then move on to the next 1/3 gallon. Works for me - this last Dektol I mixed back in March so I get about 3 months per 1/3 gallon. And thanks for the offer, if I was closer I'd probably take you up on that!

I was just talking to somebody recently about Lodima. I would love to try it, especially for contact printing 8x10. Maybe one day.

I wish I had more time/money to try a variety of toners. I have some sepia here I've been too skittish to try on anything. I don't like hard sepia toning but just a little is fine. I have a print from last night that is a little dark - might be perfect for toning...I'll have to put it on the list of things to do when I don't have any new prints to make.

For now I'm tapping my foot waiting for the mail to come with the paper so I can get going!

[Corran]

To somewhat answer my own question...

Both Neutol WA and Ansco 130 gave functionally identical paper tone, that being slightly warm. After toning in selenium (1:15 for 6 min) the warmish tone got a bit more pronounced. Blacks were not significantly affected. Need to see how much the paper dries down. The Neutol is slightly lower contrast as is normal.

Didn't test Dektol because my batch died and it takes a while for fresh mixed to come down to room temp. Probably won't bother.

The Grade 2 paper I bought is a bit softer than I expected. Probably should go with G3 instead and use the Neutol if it's too contrasty. However I am not right now seeing anything significantly better or worse than from VC Warmtone so maybe there's no reason to use the Galerie paper, for me anyway. I am not an experienced printer at all as of yet so perhaps the subtleties of the paper is lost on me.

I can still try some things like sepia or other toning. I have a box of copper toner here too...

Thanks for all of your input.

[Sal Santamaura]

...When you say "usual green tinge," what does that mean? I do not want green. Which part causes green tinges?Most FB papers, in most developers, come out with a slight green cast that's traditionally been neutralized via selenium toning. It's something I'm very sensitive to; others might not mind or notice it.

To evaluate FB black and white print color, I always use sunlight coming in a window, diffused by white blinds/shutters and white walls/ceiling, on a cloudless day. Other illuminants can be less revealing of subtle casts. It's instructive to have several types of paper, processed in various developers, toned and untoned, along with an assortment of mat boards, side-by-side. The differences jump right out at me. YMMV.

[Corran]

I almost always selenium tone so I suppose I don't see that on my finished prints, which is good as that would annoy me!

Some more thoughts - I made several 8x10 contact prints recently on Warmtone. I made a couple more prints of that negative on Galerie. They aren't quite dry but comparing them the midtones have a bit more separation in some areas it seems. However this is very slight and the comparison is really not apples to apples as this Galerie is glossy while the Warmtone is semi-gloss. There's also just a tiny bit more highlight "air." This negative is tough because the highlights are a bit off the scale. The Warmtone print required a lot of burning to get them down into the tonal range. The Galerie handled it a bit easier and needed less burning, just about a stop.

I kind of want to "standardize" on a paper but I am starting to understand more why people have a variety of papers to print on for different negatives/conditions.

[Bruce Barlow]

"I was just talking to somebody recently about Lodima. I would love to try it, especially for contact printing 8x10. Maybe one day."

Again, too bad. Got a freezer full of Lodima grades 2 and 3. Bring your negs, print, eat lobster.

Hey! We're having our first snowfall of the winter tonight. How does it get any better than that?? Especially for someone from Georgia???

[Corran]

:)

I'll keep that in mind if I head up that way! I would love to see Maine - it's one of the places my wife and I are really interested in going to someday.

We sometime get snow here...once or twice a year, a light dusting...;)

Only thing is I don't eat lobster :eek:.

[John Olsen]

A good friend and mentor of mine pretty much only uses Dektol. I can't fault him for it and the prints looks good. Yes, there's always an element of "silver bullet" searching I suppose but I do love to try different things. It's fun. I do absolutely think my prints with Ilford Warmtone dev'd in Ansco 130 look objectively "better" than my Ilford MGIV dev'd in Dektol. There's clearly a difference. Also MGIV + Dektol is definitely a bit on the cool side in paper tone. Neutol WA gives it a bit more neutrality. Of course all this is meaningless since MGIV isn't made anymore, but I haven't used any Classic to compare (I have two boxes on the shelf though once I finish up this last box of MGIV).

Do you think Dektol is just the perfect paper developer? Do you think there is nothing better?

What? You have Ilford MG Classic and haven't tried it? It is a big step forward, so please try it soon.

As for the Dektol exhaustion cliff, I record how many prints (8x10 equivalents) I've done with my working solution, and toss it at the 80-100 print per gallon point. Certainly, I mix new solution if I'm embarking on a big print campaign.

[Corran]

Cool, I'll be interested to try it. I am just trying to push through the last of my MGIV, most of which I've had for years since I wasn't really able to print seriously until this year after building out a proper DR.

[Bill Burk]

I use Galerie with Dektol 1:2 at 68-degrees for 3 minutes. I find the color to be very neutral.

I have been Selenium toning, 1:20 for a few minutes, certainly not to completion. I don't see a significant change in the tone.

When mixing spotting dyes I find that I use mostly Spotone 3 (gray) with a little 2 selenium (brownish).

Greenish, I haven't seen in a long time, pretty sure it was from adding potassium bromide to the tray.

[George Hart]

I have tried most of the currently-available fibre-based papers from Ilford and I have settled on Ilfobrom Galerie FB for prints that end up in a frame and on the wall. For some years my choice of developer with this paper has been Bromophen, though I'm going to try Adox Adotol (Calbe N113) because Bromophen is now available only in 5 L quantities. Prints for the wall get toned in selenium 1+19 for 3 min. The colour shift from green to black/very slight red is obvious but only when a direct comparison is made with an untoned print. IMO selenium clears up the "snottiness" of an untoned print and makes it more luminous.

[Pere Casals]

Just curious if anyone has comments on the tonality, color, or whatever of Ilford Galerie (G2 or 3) in either Ansco 130, Neutol WA, or Dektol?

I'm giving Galerie a try to see how I like it. I have never used a graded paper before. These are the 3 developers I have on hand - though I would consider something else if it's imperative.

Of course I'll try a variety of things but just thought I would ask.


Time ago I made my choice: Dektol.

I printed some contact copies of the Stouffer density wedge with different print developers and I found little difference about grey scales.

At the end when printing with Galerie you may end with Selenium and/or Gold toning, so final tone is adjusted later. IMHO Galerie paper is for serious works, so long term stability, and richer blacks should be a requirement, so toning would be there.

Of course one may want Galerie without the toning finish... but again there are a couple of paper tone manipulation techniques beyond developer. What I say is that grey scale manipulation is done in other ways, and IMHO for FB tone Se/Au/etc bath is what rules, so the paper developer is a least concern to me, if later I'm to tone it.

[j.e.simmons]

I found that with 130, one can make small contrast changes similar to old water bath techniques by stopping agitation for part of the development time. For instance, if developing for two minutes, agitate for one minute and still for the second, or 1 1/2 to 30sec.

[Pere Casals]

I found that with 130, one can make small contrast changes similar to old water bath techniques by stopping agitation for part of the development time. For instance, if developing for two minutes, agitate for one minute and still for the second, or 1 1/2 to 30sec.

ok, but this should also work with other developers, specially with diluted or partially exhausted developer... as we play with selective developer exhaustion before a new agitation is performed.

Also a requirement for this would be a not complete development, because if not all latent image is developed anyway at the end. I guess this would modify tone a bit to the warm side because incomplete development, please correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm a darkroom printing learner.

[Corran]

Thanks Bill for your thoughts on Dektol. It is good to know that the tone is neutral with Galerie. I am still going to keep Dektol around, especially for larger prints requiring a lot of developer.

George, I have never heard of either of those. What qualities do you attribute to them that make them your preferred developer, as opposed to more common developers?

I am now looking at my finished/dried comparison prints between Ilford Warmtone and Galerie, both in Ansco 130. Again, the Warmtone is semi-matte while the Galerie is glossy. Due to this there is an obvious difference in DMax. But beyond this, the lower tones, around Zones 2-4, have a bit more "luminosity" on the Galerie paper. It's like the contrast was kicked up just in the low tones. As previously mentioned, the Galerie paper was also easier to print down the highlights on, and they have a bit more subtlety looking at the very lightest tones, Zones 8-10. The Warmtone is fine but it goes from light grey to white pretty fast.

I read somewhere online that Warmtone has an abrupt toe/shoulder. This would roughly explain what I am seeing. However it might be invisible if I were to try one more print on Warmtone Glossy (but I don't have any). I think I am going to stick these two prints in a frame next to each other and hang on the wall near a window and see if I can easily ascertain any difference. I think they will probably both look nice and any subtle differences will be irrelevant behind glass. However I am definitely very happy with the Galerie paper, with a negative that properly aligns with the contrast grade (I tried printing a less-than-perfect negative, which showed clearly the limitations of a graded paper with an improper negative).

[George Hart]

George, I have never heard of either of those. What qualities do you attribute to them that make them your preferred developer, as opposed to more common developers?



Bryan, I speak from personal experience not with great authority, but unlike some developers that bang through the tones rather quickly, Bromophen takes longer and handles the highlight details in particular with more finesse. It's tonality that I am after in my prints. But of course, the differences between prints made with different developers is much less than with film.

[Corran]

Thanks George, I am just curious (and I do like to try different things).

I tried a developer some time ago that was slow-working - like 6-10 minutes for development slow. It didn't work for me due to this personally, especially as I didn't, at the time, see a difference in the prints compared to other developers. But that is interesting nevertheless. I think we are all after good tonality in our prints though :).

[Drew Wiley]

It all depends on image color. My own incentive for using a pricey bromide paper like Galerie is to obtain a cold tone, so I develop it in amidol then tone it in gold chloride. It develops slowly and takes 4 or 5 min to go to completion. Dektol gives a slightly greenish tone, and 130 is a bit warm. Otherwise, I find it less versatile than current premium VC papers. I'm glad it's still around, but use it sparingly.

[Chuck Pere]

With graded papers the way to get some contrast adjustment is to use both a normal developer and a low contrast developer. Adjust the time in each for the contrast you want. The old standby is dektol and selectol-soft. You could use Ansco 130 and 120. I also like Bromophen or Ilford Universal PQ. Seems softer working than dektol with nice tonality.

[Corran]

I understand the ways to lower contrast. How about increasing contrast though?

I notice that with Ilford MGIV in Dektol I can increase contrast easily by prolonging development. I tried that with Galerie with a negative that was a bit low contrast and it didn't seem to push the contrast even with very long development times. I could be wrong.

This has been a helpful and interesting discussion.

[Merg Ross]

I understand the ways to lower contrast. How about increasing contrast though?

I notice that with Ilford MGIV in Dektol I can increase contrast easily by prolonging development. I tried that with Galerie with a negative that was a bit low contrast and it didn't seem to push the contrast even with very long development times. I could be wrong.

This has been a helpful and interesting discussion.

Increase the Hydroquinone for greater contrast. An old thread.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?50845-High-contrast-paper-developer/page2

[Corran]

Thanks Merg! That's very helpful.

[Merg Ross]

Thanks Merg! That's very helpful.

Corran, thanks for starting this thread. I have not used the Galerie paper. You may like printing on Classic using 130. Bear in mind, chemistry is a very important part of the process; a slight tweak can make a difference.

I await your further discoveries and comments.

[Corran]

I am learning here, so please take my comments with a grain of salt :).
I've made great strides since my first prints made in my bedroom at night and washing outside with a hose, but I certainly don't have the breadth of experience with many different papers, chemicals, and toners to speak with much authority comparatively. Perhaps one day.

I was hesitant to post at first because the old "try it yourself" mantra would be all I got, which is fair, but I do like to note others' experience.

[plaubel]

I understand the ways to lower contrast. How about increasing contrast though?



Rollei RHC 1+4 is fine for increasing contrast.
This is my standard developer.
Foma's Hydrochinon 1+1 instead of 1+3 developer works nearly the same way.

Printing darker followed by bleaching the highlights is a possibility, too.

Take a lith developer for strong increase of contrast.
Protecting the shadows with Selen followed by bleaching and then redeveloping cares about the warm and brown lith tones, and may increase contrast further, depending on your technique.

Since you always tone with Selen as said before, I don't have to mention this step.

You could do something to your negative, too, for increasing a print.
Redeveloping, reducing, increasing, retouching...

Ritchie

[Bernard_L]

What effect does temperature have other than slower/faster dev time? I very rarely check temps on my paper developer. Right now in the basement it's probably mid 60s or lower due to the outside temps.
Paper developers are probably less critical in that respect, but... to go to the trouble and expense of Galerie and being so casual about development is not consistent.

and then separated out 1/3 of it into a different gallon bottle and filled it up for a 1:2 dilution
That practice is not recommended by the Kodak instructions.

Works for me

but actually last night I went to print some contact prints and it had died out of no where. That's usually how it goes - sudden death, no warning.
Sitting around as 1+2 working strength for weeks/months does not help.

I've kept stock strength for 1+ year in a wine pouch and (using a Stouffer step wedge) could not see any difference with Dektol that I had freshly mixed "just to be on the safe side".

[Corran]

I think you misunderstand - I decant 1/3 of the stock solution to use at working solution of 1:2, until at capacity and then move on to the next 1/3 of stock solution. Usually the last 1/3 gallon of stock solution mixed to 1:2 works fine for a bit but dies before reaching capacity. I assume it oxidizes while in stock solution and then has a short working life. 130 has a much longer working solution life which is nice. My basement darkroom for most of the year hovers around 70F so generally chemicals stay within a few degrees of normal working temperatures. Starting to get into the cooler period though.

Thanks for the suggestions Ritchie.

[Drew Wiley]

If temp gets significantly out of bounds, grain size and hence image color are affected, as well as contrast. With 130, the age of the stock is also a factor. Glycin distinctly ages and affects image color. This fact is more apparent with other papers than Galerie, but all these little details add up.

[interneg]

I understand the ways to lower contrast. How about increasing contrast though?

I notice that with Ilford MGIV in Dektol I can increase contrast easily by prolonging development. I tried that with Galerie with a negative that was a bit low contrast and it didn't seem to push the contrast even with very long development times. I could be wrong.

This has been a helpful and interesting discussion.

Interestingly, the aspect of Galerie I find most useful is the way that extended development lets me pull in awkward highlights. I also find it generally punchier than the equivalent grade of MGWT (obviously a different curve shape - & a good case for why seemingly equivalent ISO contrast numbers don't tell the whole story) - though the mids are not dissimilar - colourwise it sits somewhere between MG Classic & MGWT with Ilford developers I feel. Getting contrast up with Galerie is rarely a problem I find - unless your negs are really flat - indeed I often find myself trying to get the G2 contrast down... If all else fails, try the C grade of the fixed-grade Fomabrom.

Either way, Galerie's a great paper & with the right neg it can be absolutely stunning.

[Corran]

Might just be me or my methodology. When I say increase contrast, I mean that the darker tones continue to intensify. Just an application of the "develop for the highlights" mantra, except the "highlights" are the shadows in a positive image. The image in question was a foggy scene that I shot recently that I wanted to push up the contrast with - I ended up using a #5 filter on Warmtone. Clearly my negative was not optimal here!

I am confused how the development time affects highlights. Perhaps you can educate me here?

[interneg]

Might just be me or my methodology. When I say increase contrast, I mean that the darker tones continue to intensify. Just an application of the "develop for the highlights" mantra, except the "highlights" are the shadows in a positive image. The image in question was a foggy scene that I shot recently that I wanted to push up the contrast with - I ended up using a #5 filter on Warmtone. Clearly my negative was not optimal here!

I am confused how the development time affects highlights. Perhaps you can educate me here?

Essentially I've noticed that if you extend dev time out beyond 3m30s to 5-6 mins (in Multigrade or PQ Universal for example), highlights that were on the edge of burn-out can be brought back in somewhat more than you'd expect relative to burn-in exposure. It's quite obvious in the tray in my experience - & beware that if you also used a pre-flash aimed at a 2-3 minute dev time, extending the dev time will make the flash have visible density...

Regarding your negative, give the C (grade 4+) Fomabrom a shot - available from Freestyle, but be warned, it needs longer fixing times than Ilford etc. I've used a fair bit of Fomabrom/ Fomaspeed and it's pretty punchy stuff with excellent separation of tones.

[Roger Cole]

If you want a long lasting paper developer, try Ethol LPD. I once went back into the darkroom after a long hiatus, found a bottle of working strength (LPD lasts so long it's just a waste to discard it - just pour working strength back in a bottle and squeeze the air out - that I thought was six months old, so I decided to give it a try. It worked perfectly. Turns out I looked at the year wrong (I had been away from photography a LONG time) and it was eighteen months old. I was so startled I mixed some fresh and did a comparison. I really couldn't tell any difference.

I've not used it with Galerie but it's great with MGIV.

I don't recommend keeping working strength that long and I didn't do it on purpose, but it worked perfectly.

[Doremus Scudder]

Trying to squeeze a bit more contrast from graded papers by lengthening development used to be a common tool. Many older papers reacted well in this regard to longer development times. However, most modern papers don't really change much in contrast with extended development anymore. Some show a bit of contrast change (I'm thinking of Slavich 160 here), but it's not as much as I used to get from the old Ilfobrom, Seagul and even Kodak Elite papers that are now long gone.

What does happen is that longer development increases the effective paper speed, shifting the entire contrast curve faster, with not very much change in shape after "complete development" has been reached. I find this a good tool for making what would otherwise be difficult exposure tweaks, especially after having worked out tricky dodging and burning at a particular exposure. Sometimes even an additional 15 seconds can make a visible difference in a print. I suspect this is probably what is helping interneg's highlights with extended development.

Try it yourself. Make four identical prints and pull them from the developer at 2.5, 3, 4 and 6 minutes, then see if you can match the 6 minute print by simply increasing exposure and using a 2.5 minute developing time. I'll bet you'll find that you can and that the contrast of the two will be very, very close, if not exactly the same.

Still, extending development is a useful tool and, as alluded to above, does tweak curve shape a bit for some papers. The speed increase works for VC papers too.

When working with graded papers, which I like to do mostly, I prefer to work with fairly contrasty negs, and reduce contrast when printing by using split development or a softer-working print developer rather than vice-versa. All the tricks to eek out a bit more contrast than a print already developed Dektol or Bromophen yield very little more; on the other hand, a Selectol-Soft print can have a contrast difference of a grade or more compared to a Dektol print, all other things being equal. When I have a neg that needs grade 4, I switch to MC-110 or some other VC paper.

Best,

Doremus

[Drew Wiley]

No way you can build anywhere near the contrast overdeveloping Galerie compared todialing in deep contrast with MGWT. You can appreciably intensify either using selenium or gold chloride. The last two weeks I've been printing both. Wish Galerie gr4 still existed. But if you want sheer punch, I stumbled onto an old Brilliant bromide print I never toned, and treated it with gold. Wow!

[Tin Can]

If you want a long lasting paper developer, try Ethol LPD. I once went back into the darkroom after a long hiatus, found a bottle of working strength (LPD lasts so long it's just a waste to discard it - just pour working strength back in a bottle and squeeze the air out - that I thought was six months old, so I decided to give it a try. It worked perfectly. Turns out I looked at the year wrong (I had been away from photography a LONG time) and it was eighteen months old. I was so startled I mixed some fresh and did a comparison. I really couldn't tell any difference.

I've not used it with Galerie but it's great with MGIV.

I don't recommend keeping working strength that long and I didn't do it on purpose, but it worked perfectly.

Good to know Roger. I have 4 old cans of the stuff, never tried it. I found them this week.

As soon as I can find everything else, as I just moved and I failed to mark 100 boxes properly. LOL, I was in a hurry.

Today I found the big paper safes and paper. While looking for strobes.

For some reason, I packed my strobes without their receivers. Needle in a haystack...

[Corran]

Thanks for the continued responses and techniques.

I was looking at gold toners, out of curiosity, at PF. $137.50 for a 2L kit (Nelson), ouch! I see it lasts for a long time but still...and I am down to my last few milliliters of Pyrocat, Rodinal, and other developers. Anybody want to buy a print?? :cool:

[interneg]

Thanks for the continued responses and techniques.

I was looking at gold toners, out of curiosity, at PF. $137.50 for a 2L kit (Nelson), ouch! I see it lasts for a long time but still...and I am down to my last few milliliters of Pyrocat, Rodinal, and other developers. Anybody want to buy a print?? :cool:

Nelson's is quite different from the other more 'normal' gold toners - Paul Strand used it (I think) & it works rather differently & gives quite a useful range of interesting colours from what I've seen. Definitely on the 'to make & try' list - it's also replenishable which is quite attractive.


Wish Galerie gr4 still existed.

Same here, Gr1 Galerie would be nice too sometimes - as much as I like the MG papers, it does offer usefully different characteristics. Anyone want to do a custom order with Ilford?

[Drew Wiley]

Galerie seems to be expensive to make. They seem to use even a different kind of paper and coating. Note the minimal drydown shift. And they seem to sell relatively little of it compared to their VC papers. Last of the premium graded papers on the market, it seems. ... But as far as gold toners are concerned, most formulas and recommendations waste gold like crazy. It doesn't actually take much concentration to do the trick. $75 worth of gold chloride easily lasts me a year, and I'm mostly doing 16X20 and 20X24 prints. It's perfectly effective at considerable dilution. But Nelson's is indeed an odd duck and never appealed to me personally.

[Corran]

The brown/sepia colors ascribed to the Nelson product interested me. Other gold toners mention blue tones or reddish hues which are not something I am looking for at the moment.

[Roger Cole]

Good to know Roger. I have 4 old cans of the stuff, never tried it. I found them this week.

As soon as I can find everything else, as I just moved and I failed to mark 100 boxes properly. LOL, I was in a hurry.

Today I found the big paper safes and paper. While looking for strobes.

For some reason, I packed my strobes without their receivers. Needle in a haystack...

Its long life (as I said, I don't normally stretch it THAT long...) was one thing that really appealed to me since I print infrequently and often not that many prints. But I've come to prefer it for most papers. Tonality is much like Dektol, maybe less of the slight green tinge (though it's supposed to change tone rather than contrast with different dilutions I admit I've never tried that and just use Ilford WT developer for MGWT) but with vastly better tray life and none of that awful blue color on everything in sight I get with Dektol. I have to say this about Dektol - it will prove to you that you are actually splashing or dripping small amounts of developer in places you never would have thought you were. It's not really a stain as it wipes right up, it's just oxidized developer and I suppose a case could be made for that being a good thing since it shows you were you didn't clean it up and need to - but heck, I really like LPD. Have for decades. First tried it in high school circa 1980 or so.

[Merg Ross]

I really like LPD. Have for decades. First tried it in high school circa 1980 or so.

You are in good company. Brett Weston switched to LPD after he stopped using Amidol. Still got beautiful results.

[Doremus Scudder]

... Wish Galerie gr4 still existed. But if you want sheer punch, I stumbled onto an old Brilliant bromide print I never toned, and treated it with gold. Wow!


I use Ilford Galerie paper- digital paper but basically a grade 4 and I have used dectol and the Ilford Multigrade I like them both..

Would the digital paper Bob Carnie uses work for projections enlarging? Bob?

Doremus

[Tin Can]

You are in good company. Brett Weston switched to LPD after he stopped using Amidol. Still got beautiful results.

Mr Ross, you have sold me! I now plan to use LPD on my gifted AZO.

I see B&H sells it in bags of powder and Freestyle as liquid.

Good news. Thank you and Mr Cole.

[Roger Cole]

Mr Ross, you have sold me! I now plan to use LPD on my gifted AZO.

I see B&H sells it in bags of powder and Freestyle as liquid.

Good news. Thank you and Mr Cole.

Note that the powder and the liquid are different concentrations. The liquid is twice as strong as the stock you mix up from powder. It works the same if dilution is adjusted accordingly - follow the instructions on the container. The powder is way less expensive, especially if shipping isn't free since you're paying for shipping the weight of liquid.

I have no experience with Azo, with LPD or otherwise, but it's always worked well for me with the usual enlarging papers.

[Roger Cole]

Actually Freestyle has the powder too. Comes in a can - at least what I've bought always did and that's what they show:

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/121641-Ethol-LPD-Powder-Paper-Developer-1-Gallon

Hm, I see B&H does list the powder in bags, as well as liquid. And they'll ship it - B&H is funny about that.

[Tin Can]

Actually Freestyle has the powder too. Comes in a can - at least what I've bought always did and that's what they show:

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/121641-Ethol-LPD-Powder-Paper-Developer-1-Gallon

Hm, I see B&H does list the powder in bags, as well as liquid. And they'll ship it - B&H is funny about that.

Roger, better research than I did on my phone while asleep! B&H has improved their analog product line and delivery.

I consider using LPD on AZO and Lodima as Amidol is a recommended developer.

I made an inferential leap...from the Westin data.

[bob carnie]

Would the digital paper Bob Carnie uses work for projections enlarging? Bob?

Doremus

Never tried it but I assume yes but with no safelight.

[Michael R]

Gr1 Galerie would be nice too sometimes -

Flashing grade 2 can help quite a bit. It can be a very useful control with graded papers.

[Mrportr8]

Results from changing one component or another are subjective. One person's contrasty or soft is another's not contrasty enough or soft enough. There is no substitute for trying it yourself.

[interneg]

Galerie seems to be expensive to make. They seem to use even a different kind of paper and coating. Note the minimal drydown shift. And they seem to sell relatively little of it compared to their VC papers. Last of the premium graded papers on the market, it seems.

At least on this side of the pond, it's generally been not far off the price of Classic or Cooltone - for a while you could buy Galerie from Harman Express for about the same as MG Classic from a dealer - which is not bad for what Ilford seemed to regard as their premium paper in the pre-MGWT era.



But as far as gold toners are concerned, most formulas and recommendations waste gold like crazy. It doesn't actually take much concentration to do the trick. $75 worth of gold chloride easily lasts me a year, and I'm mostly doing 16X20 and 20X24 prints. It's perfectly effective at considerable dilution.

What sort of dilution level are we talking about here compared to the usual stock solution?


Flashing grade 2 can help quite a bit. It can be a very useful control with graded papers.

Absolutely, though have increasingly taken to making a quick USM which I find almost faster to do & more consistent. Of course at that point, gr.1 becomes less of an issue, but there are times when you don't want to/ can't mask the negative & it would be handy (definitely not necessary) to have.

[Drew Wiley]

I Use a variation of GP-1 about 1/8 the concentration of the standard formula, mixed with just enough water to allow the print to be evenly covered when the tray is gently tilted back and forth. You can't reuse it on a later date, so just mix enough per session. The only other variable is the time in the solution per print, which can vary anywhere from 30 sec to 7 min, depending on the coolness of tone or degree of intensification. It can also precede selenium and/or sulfide toners for more complex results on some papers.

[interneg]

I Use a variation of GP-1 about 1/8 the concentration of the standard formula, mixed with just enough water to allow the print to be evenly covered when the tray is gently tilted back and forth. You can't reuse it on a later date, so just mix enough per session. The only other variable is the time in the solution per print, which can vary anywhere from 30 sec to 7 min, depending on the coolness of tone or degree of intensification. It can also precede selenium and/or sulfide toners for more complex results on some papers.

Useful to know - cheers!

Sulfide & gold is one of my favourite combinations, so am definitely going to give this a go.

[agregov]

Can't comment on AZO, but with Lodima LPD give prints with a bluish cast. Amidol, using Michael Smith's formula, gives normal looking silver prints with better DMAX and tonality. I'd recommend Amidol over LPD. That said, LPD is really super with Ilford MG Warmtome.

The earlier point in the thread of Brett Weston using LPD, I heard the same but I doubt it was contact printing with silver chloride papers. I'd guess he was using LPD for enlarging with multigrade papers.

[Drew Wiley]

As long as the gold is present, the concentration and temp don't seem to matter much with this particular formula. But if you're aiming for a conspicuous split tone with sulfide, I recommend four or five min in gold for warm VC papers, or even certain discontinued graded papers which some of us might have stockpiled. Developers like 130 work well.

[Merg Ross]

The earlier point in the thread of Brett Weston using LPD, I heard the same but I doubt it was contact printing with silver chloride papers. I'd guess he was using LPD for enlarging with multigrade papers.

Yes, that is correct. The majority of his prints when he switched to LPD were made on projection papers.

Thanks,
Merg

[Cor]

Just something I like to do when after a printing session I have prints which could benefit for a little (or more) punch (contrast)..partial bleach in either a sepia bleach of a Copper bleach and redevelop in FSA toner; gives a considerable boost, but obviously also a colour change..

Best,

Cor

[Corran]

I did a Google search for FSA toner and from another thread you made actually saw that it was thiourea dioxide - I have some thiourea here, what else do you need to make it?

Also, that post reminded me about the Toning Book and the author, Tim Rudman. I knew there was something out there like that. However, anyone have any suggestions on a source for one not $150-200 like advertised on Amazon???

[Tin Can]

Can't comment on AZO, but with Lodima LPD give prints with a bluish cast. Amidol, using Michael Smith's formula, gives normal looking silver prints with better DMAX and tonality. I'd recommend Amidol over LPD. That said, LPD is really super with Ilford MG Warmtome.

The earlier point in the thread of Brett Weston using LPD, I heard the same but I doubt it was contact printing with silver chloride papers. I'd guess he was using LPD for enlarging with multigrade papers.

Noted

Thank you

[Cor]

Hmm, I assumed the recipe and procedures are soemwhere on the WWW..but it seesm not that easy: I got my first info on the toner from:'The best kept toner secret' by Tony McLean in the then Photon magazine. I contacted him directly. Later I bought Tim Rudman his book, but not at that premium..! I assume I cannot share from that book, perhaps you can try to contact Tony (from Darlington),

Good luck !

Cor


I did a Google search for FSA toner and from another thread you made actually saw that it was thiourea dioxide - I have some thiourea here, what else do you need to make it?

Also, that post reminded me about the Toning Book and the author, Tim Rudman. I knew there was something out there like that. However, anyone have any suggestions on a source for one not $150-200 like advertised on Amazon???

[Corran]

Copyright-wise, I believe the issue is whether or not Rudman (or someone else) has a patent on the formula. If he is publishing the formula found freely elsewhere then you should be able to share it here. Perhaps this is a good discussion topic for elsewhere.

[Cor]

Ok, I tried to contact Tony McLean, but his mail is not working (last contact with him was in 2000 perhaps no surprise). I am taking the liberty here to post his article here from Photon 'The best kept toner secret' by Tony McLean, from conversations with him I deduce that he is all in for sharing...

Thiourea dioxide, also known as formamidine sulphinic acid (FSA for
short) is a common chemical used in the textile industry as a bleach in the dyeing process. It has replaced the more toxic hypochlorites, as it is safer and does less damage to the environment.

The process is simple and the chemistry relatively safe. In fact thiourea dioxide is much safer than its chemical cousin, thiourea (as used in odourless sepia toning kits), which is a suspected carcinogen. The technique is applicable to both resin coated and fibre based prints and, because the result is a print which is composed of just colloidal silver, the image can be subsequently toned or returned to its original state. One major advantage of FSA over the usual bleach and tone formulae is that there is no loss of image density, if used with the correct beach. In fact, there is an intensification of the shadow tones with no loss of highlight density.
FSA is a powerful reducing agent whose application to monochrome printing was discovered by George Wakefield a couple of decades ago. When mixed in solution with an alkali, it will reduce the rehalogenized image back to metallic silver with variable particle size, and therefore colour.
FSA can be purchased here in the U.K. as a raw chemical, from Rayco and Silverprint, and in kit form from Silverprint (made by Speedibrews). The use of this substance is still very much underrated, and its potential still largely unexplored. The effects one can achieve can vary between subtle blue greys to, at the other end of the scale, over the top vivid colours. The choice is yours.
There are three main variables to consider in using this process.
These are the enlarging paper itself, the composition of the bleaching
(rehalogenizing) baths and the alkalinity of the FSA solution.
Generally, most enlarging papers purchased today are either chlorobromide (warm tone) or bromochloride which are more neutral in tone.
Yes, there will be readers among you who still have a box or two of gaslight papers or pure bromide papers secreted away, but they are in the minority. All papers that I have experimented with over the last couple of years have reacted positively to the process and I have not discovered any major difficulties with any of the common multigrade papers available today.
The elemental silver of a developed and fixed print can be converted to either one of three silver halides dependent on the type of bleach used. Silver bromide, chloride or iodide. Of course, the bleaching process does not have to be taken to its final conclusion and some of the original image silver can be left unaltered. This is yet another variable to exercise. In fact, I usually make up my bromide bleach deliberately weak to allow me the choice of full or partial rehalogenization. The bleaches can be stored in light proof, labelled containers but I cannot vouch for their shelf life. I prefer to make up fresh for each session.

In order for the FSA to become an effective reducing agent, an alkali must be added to the solution. The pH of the alkali determines the efficiency, or reduction potential of the FSA solution. The higher the pH, the quicker the reduction takes place, and the cooler the print tones. I prefer a slower acting solution with consequently warmer tones (smaller colloidal silver) and therefore use the lower pH alkali, sodium carbonate.
However, if you wish a colder, more blue-black image, then substitute the same quantity of sodium carbonate with sodium hydroxide.

I have found that a print of about one third of a stop lighter, together with a reduction in contrast of one grade, is a good starting point. Stop and fix as normal in a non hardening fixer and wash RC prints for 10 minutes and hypo clear FB prints and wash for a minimum of 30 minutes.
Beware, any residual fixer left in the print will combine with the bleaching bath and lead to a reduction of highlight density. To achieve an even reduction in the bleaching solution, dry prints must be presoaked and agitated constantly in the bleach.

Bleaching
(Rehalogenization)
The three bleaches listed below will convert the original silver image into silver bromide, silver chloride, and silver iodide respectively:-

Bromide bleach
Potassium ferricyanide l0 g
Potassium bromide 5 g
Water to make 500ml

Chloride bleach
Copper sulphate 25g
Sulphuric acid 10% 30 ml
Sodium chloride 25g
Water to make 500 ml


Iodide bleach
Potassium iodide 9.3g
Potassium ferricyanide 17.5g
Water to make 5OOmI

Prints should be bleached in subdued lighting, however, safe light conditions are not required. Ordinary tungsten lighting is appropriate, except when using the chloride bleach with chlorobromide papers. In this instance, both the bleaching stage, and the redevelopment should then be done under normal safelight conditions. Prints rehalogenized in the iodide bleach will reverse in tone and the borders and highlights will stain a brown colour. Do not be concerned, the staining will clear immediately on immersion in the FSA solution. However, I would recommend that a separate FSA solution for prints bleached back in iodide, as residual iodide in the FSA solution can lead to density loss in subsequent prints.

Preparing the FSA
FSA or thiourea dioxide is a fine white crystalline powder. It is irritating to both the skin and the respiratory system and should be stored in a cool place. Its reduction properties are non existent until mixed with an alkali, and the solution MUST be matured for at least one hour before use. If the FSA solution is matured for longer than two hours, a warmer tone will result. The solution does not keep well and exhausts pretty quickly so do not make up more than you need for one session. When mature, the solution has a faint sulphurous, biscuity (cookie) odour. I find it more productive to make up one litre of the solution and use 300ml at a time, replacing it after each lOx 8 print or equivalent. In an emergency, e.g. half way through redeveloping a print, the solution can sometimes be reactivated with the addition of a couple of grammes of sodium carbonate or a few millilitres of stock developer.

FSA solution
Thiourea dioxide lOg
Sodium carbonate lOg
Water to make 6OOmI
(Note: mature solution for a minimum of one hour before use)

After the print has been bleached, the print is washed for the appropriate time. Two minutes for RC papers and about 5 minutes for FB papers. Position the tray containing the bleach adjacent to your wash bath so that you do not contaminate the FSA with drips from the bleached print.

Bromide bleach with FSA
Full redevelopment will give you rich red brown shadow tones with pale grey-blue highlights. However, the image can be retrieved from the developer at any point giving a split-tone effect, with chestnut shadows and blue mid-tones, which will subsequently turn a yellow-green on drying.
It would be advisable to re-fix a print which has only been partly redeveloped.

Copper bleach with FSA
Chestnut shadows with grey-blue mid tones and highlights if only partly redeveloped. Full redevelopment will give neutral shadow tones with yellow-green mid tones on drying. With chlorobromide fibre prints, a neutral to blue-black tone is achieved depending on the alkalinity of the FSA.

Iodine bleach with FSA
The iodine stain from the bleach will disappear on immersion into the FSA.
However, it is probably best to wash the print for 10 minutes in order to remove the majority of the iodine. The shadow tones will then appear as a bright yellow (silver iodide) and will gradually turn pink, then red over a period of about 15 minutes. The re-development after an iodine bleach is much slower than either of the other two bleaches, just the thing for Lith printers taking a Sabbatical! It may take an hour or two to fully develop.
Although silver iodide is light sensitive, it is much less so when 'imprisoned' in its gelatin matrix, and I have not found any deterioration in the colours of prints made this way ....as yet. There is a substantial loss of highlight detail if the print redevelopment is curtailed at the yellow, silver iodide stage. It would therefore be advisable to adjust the contrast of the original print to compensate.
Like most things in life, the novelty factor of printing bright, multicoloured images on RC paper soon begins to pale. However, don't be disheartened... just try this redevelopment technique on a matte fibre based paper, perhaps using only partial bleaching, and your prints will be revitalised. I promise! Subtle pinks, blues and greens; a whole new paint-box is waiting to be used. Why not give it a try?

[Ian Gordon Bilson]

Galerie is going to look a little warm in Ansco 130. Pretty much everything does. It will be more neutral in Dektol, and benefits from about 2 minutes of selenium toning at about a 1:20 dilution. If you compare two Dektol prints, one in the toner and one outside, when the toning print starts to change color, the untoned print will look a little green. That's when you know the toned print is cooked enough. Much more time in the toner and it will turn a garish purple. Blecch (a technical term).

That said, when I tested paper and developers Galerie was always near the top. Couldn't beat Forte Polygrade V, but on the other hand Galerie is still made.

Mix a gallon of Dektol and split into 20oz. Coke bottles filled to the brim and it will never die. Single-serving portions...

No experience with Neutol. Sorry.

I actually have the prints, 130 and Dektol, Galerie Grade 2, toned and untoned. Come look. We'll eat lobster.

I'm with Bruce on this. A little RST cleans the green. Interesting thread on APUG (as was) on RST on the role of Sod.Sulphide..

[Corran]

Cor, thank you very much for posting this. With Thanksgiving and a lot of other stuff going on I just now have had a chance to look at it.

The funny thing is, when I first searched up FSA and found that it was thiourea dioxide, I figured it was basically thiourea and some sort of alkali. Some time ago I was experimenting with such for positive development of black and white films. I had actually deduced some months ago that I could use that chemistry to redevelop paper after reduction and bought a variety of reducers, but I hadn't gotten around to trying it out. So, time to get into the darkroom...

[Corran]

Since this thread is about Ilford Galerie, I have to mention that my first try with thiorea dioxide, which from now on I'm going to abbreviate as ThO₂, has produced beautiful chocolate brown tones. Very interesting! And easy to make. Bleached with Farmers Reducer.

Shadow density and contrast doesn't appear to have changed much, which is unfortunate as that's what I was hoping to achieve, but I'll have to look closer after drying.

Edit - not exactly color correct due to lighting but you get the idea:

http://www.garrisaudiovisual.com/photosharing/tho2tone1.jpg

[Drew Wiley]

Back to 130. It seems to give slightly cooler tones at somewhat elevated temperature. I presume that makes the hydroqinone more active in relation to the other ingredients. I prefer to work that way rather than upping the amt of hydroquinone in the initial mix, since I might print different types of paper in the same session.

[esearing]

Since this thread is about Ilford Galerie, I have to mention that my first try with thiorea dioxide, which from now on I'm going to abbreviate as ThO₂, has produced beautiful chocolate brown tones. Very interesting! And easy to make. Bleached with Farmers Reducer.

Shadow density and contrast doesn't appear to have changed much, which is unfortunate as that's what I was hoping to achieve, but I'll have to look closer after drying.

Edit - not exactly color correct due to lighting but you get the idea:

http://www.garrisaudiovisual.com/photosharing/tho2tone1.jpg

I don't think you can add density with sepia toners, but you can remove it in the highlights by changing the mix - but it also changes the color too. For the PF kit 10ml T(5% solution) + 40 SH(10% solution) in 500ml water gives dark brown tone and returns all density, while 40ml T + 10ml SH is more yellow-brown and doesn't return all density in the highlights (or does so much slower). So perhaps the FSA toner is similar if you alter the mix of ThO2 to carbonate.
Where did you find the ThO2?
And is the FSA tone different than the Thourea + Sodium Hydroxide tones? I read that the Sodium Carbonate forms Sodium Hydroxide when mixed with water so it may be very similar but safer to use.

If trying to lighten the print overall use diluted partial bleach or spot bleach, wash, fix, then full bleaching with toner.

[Cor]

Hi Corran,

Glad you liked it and made it work ! Are these prints dried ? Did you do a partial or a full bleach ? I do mostly do a partial bleach because the complete bleach boosts contrast too much in my hands.

You might try the Copper bleach, gives a bigger boost and deeper dark browns and sometimes a split to blueish mid tones..

Maybe it is paper depended, I tried mostly on Ilford MG FB papers, and some really old Zunow and Agfa..not on Galerie

Keep experimenting !

Good luck,

Cor

[Corran]

Eric, the tone (warm to neutral to cool) of the ThO₂ toner is modified by the ratio of the Th and SH from what I understand. More SH, cooler tones. I actually might add a bit more percentage of SH to my mix to get a slightly less sepia tone. Anyway, I'm not sure if there is density differences with changes in the ratio - I will have to try. I only used SH instead of carbonate because I had it here - I assume there's no difference in results at the same pH level, you'd just have to use more carbonate to get there compared to SH. But I'm no chemist so maybe I'm wrong. Oh, and maybe it wasn't clear, but FSA and ThO₂ are identical as far as I know. Or maybe there's a very specific recipe for what is truly "FSA" but for reference the mix I made yesterday was 20g Th, 30g SH, 2500mL of water (that's a lot but I was going to tone 16x20 prints so I needed it).

I bought the thiourea on eBay of all places for under $10 for 3oz. PF requires forms and and such to order it from. Not sure why, I honestly don't even know what thiourea is. Perhaps I should read the MSDS sheet again.

Cor - those prints were in the wash. The dry-down of Galerie seems to be very low and on drying they looked about the same. For that image I did a shorter bleach time. If complete bleach boosts contrast maybe I should have left it a bit longer. I will try again - but unfortunately all my fooling yesterday exhausted the reducer and so I ordered a bunch of bulk potassium bromide/ferricyanide to mix up as much as I need.

I tried MGIV, Galerie, and Warmtone. I liked the Galerie results here the most. I did not like the MGIV results at all - it is a subtle pink image, yuck. Warmtone was in between - kind of brown/magenta all over. Not great. I'm going to add 10g of SH and go for slightly less warmth - so 1:2:125 ratio for my mix. Maybe I'll also try an inverted mix and see if I can get cool blues. I wouldn't mind trying the copper bleach but don't have the materials at the moment.

[esearing]

Per wikipedia - "Thiourea dioxide is prepared by the oxidation of thiourea with hydrogen peroxide."
Thiourea is also known as Thiocarbamide; sulfocarbamide; sulfouren.

Thiourea can be ordered by the pound from Artcraft without the DEA forms and a bit cheaper than PF. Sodium Hydroxide is also available. PF has a nice kit if anyone wants to try their hand at sepia toning including the bleach.

Generally you make a 10% solution of Thiourea and 10% solution of Sodium Hydroxide and blend them to change the tones from yellowish (more T) to deep brown (more SH). The ratio of toner solution to water is about 10% - 12% for working strength (example 50ml T : 50ml SH : 900ml Water to make a working strength)
Some people get a magenta tone from higher concentration of SH, but I have not managed to do so yet.
I also like this method of mixing the 10% solutions because I can start with equal parts and then adjust the ratios if needed.

What I also found interesting in my recent experiments was that while split toning the highlights with a Sepia toner then using Selenium to complete development I had No magenta tone on Ilford and Bergger WarmTone papers. It was a true milk chocolate brown. I did fix between the toners so not sure if that had an impact.

More experimentation required.

[Corran]

Eric, we should compare prints some time! It would be interesting to see some of your experiments. Thanks!

[Corran]

Speaking of chocolate brown, MGIV when soaked in reducer for a long time and then toned in thiourea did this:

http://www.garrisaudiovisual.com/photosharing/th02toning2ss.jpg

This was a test print from some months ago that was way too dark. The reduced and toned image is fantastic though and doesn't have that problem anymore.

I wonder if someone should make a "cool things I did in the darkroom today" thread" This is starting to be a bit of a blog on darkroom stuff so I apologize.