View Full Version : Lightroom or alternative
Ok guys, I have never purchased or even used any photo manipulating software before but it is the final piece of the digital puzzle I need to get right.
Many years ago I used to shoot on Contax 35mm and a MPP mk8 5x4 and print in a darkroom using a Durst 138 which I understood.
Having now quite recently returned to photography I find that things have changed somewhat so I have, to the bewilderment of my friends, decided that I still want to shoot film but print digitally. This has a lot to do with available space for a darkroom with running water and drainage which I don't have.
My current set-up is:
Fuji GF670 6x7
Wilderness V 10x8
Jobo CPE2
Howtek D4500 running Aurora from a Powermac G4
Epson SC-P800 running from Windows 10
I guess that Lightroom is the obvious choice for negative processing but also that it is now moving to a subscription model for £10/month which is something I would prefer not to do.
So, the options I seem to have are:
- A retail copy of Lighroom 6 which I can buy for £110 but, I presume, will not be supported or upgraded in the future
- Affinity at £49
- ACDSEE from $60 upwards
- Macphun Luminaire £53
- Maybe a Silverfast product (any suggestions?) which I could possibly get bundled with Silverfast 6.6 and upgrade the scanner software at the same time but I think that would be Euro400 but there are quite a few choices
Like I said, I have zero experience with any system so I am not tied to any system, and I don't own a digital camera so don't need any features that are specifically for digital.
As always, your guidance and opinions are appreciated.
...Sweep
With Photography, every link in the chain is important and most of them cost money. We generally get what we pay for.
If you're willing and able to run a serious scanner, you're serious, patient, skilled and already appreciate the difference between adequate and excellent. I'd be surprised if you didn't find that Photoshop gives you greater control over your creative process than Lightroom.
I used Photoshop for a number of years, and never really got the hang of masks and such.
Lightroom is intuitively easy to use, the dodging/burning is as precise as you want t make it, and doesn't force you to use masks or layers.
Worth the investment, whatever that might be for you.
I don't know much about the other software you mention, but if you can try out any or all of them before purchasing, that would be fantastic.
Hi Ken.,
Thank-you for your comment.
Having never owned a digital camera, ok I have used them at work for recording site visits etc., I don't even know the difference between PS & LR.
I have it in my mind, however, that I want to do all the stuff that a darkroom and wet printing would allow but without the image 'corruption' that some embrace nowadays. My images may not be worthy of sale but I just want to do the best I can do. If I can make, for me, a good photo from what I see on the ground glass then I will be satisfied. If I am not satisfied it should drive me on to learn from my limitations and improve in the future.
So, changing the contrast, tones, brightness and possibly colour of the image but not the shape, texture, or relative subject size or perspective. I have, for example, seen on an Affinity promo video where they stretch out the face of a clock to make it look Dali-esque; that is something i'm not bothered about.
...Sweep
Hi Ari,
So, something with the simplicity of LR but without the subscription model is what I seem to be looking for.
You are correct that they all offer trials but, like I said, having no experience, I would find it difficult to judge.
With physical things, like film format and scanner types, I can make a logical assessment of the performance against the cost, but with software it seems it is like deciding which novel is the best read and I ain't no literary expert! :-)
...Sweep
drew.saunders
5-Nov-2017, 18:21
I'm using older versions of Photoshop (CS4) and Lightroom (4), so started testing some of the alternatives before I decide if I want to go with the subscription model or not. Here's what I found:
On1 Photo Raw 2018 is quite promising as a one-stop Photoshop and Lightroom replacement, except it can't handle greyscale files! I've reported that as a "bug" but never heard back. I don't know why they don't support greyscale, but if they did, I'd probably buy it. I was able to open large RGB scanned images (~300Mb) and work on them, and it handled the files pretty well.
MacPhun Luminar looks good, but when I opened a 200Mb greyscale 16-bit image (that even my old version of Photoshop handles fairly easily) and tried to use the smart healing tool to get rid of a dust spot, it crashed every time. I've tried on my older iMac and newer work MacBook Air, and it just flat out dies with large files. Too bad, because it also looks promising. I don't know if my Macs are just too old, but nothing else died with the same files.
Affinity Photo just annoyed me with its interface, but at least it didn't crash.
All 3 are available for a free trial period, so are worth testing if you're curious.
Looks like I may end up paying the licence for PS/LR after all. I'll wait to see if On1 wants to fix their greyscale problem, but it doesn't look like that's important to them, which is too bad.
I've used older versions of On1 and it was fairly easy to pick up. I've been using Photoshop for years and like how it does layers and masks; I haven't used Lightroom as much and am not as good at it - I know people who love it, though. I've been using CS5 and LR5, not the subscription models. I've heard good things about Affinity, but haven't tried it myself.
Jim Andrada
5-Nov-2017, 22:42
In the end, nothing beats (or IMHO even comes close to) Photoshop. I'm not crazy about the subscription model, but so what - it's far from the most expensive piece of the chain from vision to print. So I just suck it up and pay the rent!!! (And I use a few additional Adobe apps, like Premiere Pro and InDesign so the rent is a bit higher, but so what. Compared to what some of the other software I use (like RealFlow and Cinema4D and Maxwell Render) go for, the Adobe suite is an incredible bargain!)
ventdesable
6-Nov-2017, 03:58
Hello,
Reading your requirement, it seems that LR would be an overkill solution in some places and non sufficient in others. In terms of organisation, it's made to help you sort hundred of thousends of pictures wich you may not need. When it comes to dusts... it might be a bit short handed. You can still buy LR6. If you go to the subscription model, well keep in mind that the main stream is to drive you to leave your pictures in their cloud. Read : one day there will be no other solution.
There is alsoe a few other possibilities. DXO launched ther latest version DXO so, until november the 30th, they let you download for free the basic ancient version (wich is DXO11). It hasn't the catalogue capacities of LR But you do not mind and it is powerfull.
The link to DXO download page : http://http://www.dxo.com/us/practicalphotography
Photoshop is, in my mind, the best solution. All the effects included are probably alsoe overkill for your common practice. But, when it comes to dust... And, you can even use ACR with TIFF if you feel more confortable with it (witch is very logical).
You cannot buy the last photshop edition anymore. But you can find used ones on e-bay.
There was a time when Photoshop CS2 was the state of the art for photo editing. But, they changed some technologies for the next generation so they stoped any support for it. In exchange Adobe made it free for its user supposed to have it. For what you will mainly do on pictures, it is largely sufficient (more recent versions do have content aware selection and modification such as remove the electric wire pole) but, people did without it for years... Google Photoshop CS2 download and you should easily find the link to Adobe's download station.
If you want to buy something new : you make look on Photoshop Elements 2018. It is not very expensive and largely enough in most of the cases. It is said to work in 8 bits only. That is partialy true. If your photos are B&W pictures, you do not really need 16 bits wich are devoted to color codification (some people argue that there is a lot more tonal graduation in a 16 bits B&W. I'm not convinced). Anyway, you can use most of the tools you will need in 16 bits at the cost of some tricks explained in this youtube link : Photoshop Elements Tutorial 16Bits/Channel (http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA2_pEg-8pQ&t=1402)
To summarize :
LR6 is still available as "box version" but may not be the finest software to do what you will want to do. It is "digital pictures" oriented.
PS CS6 is the latest "box version" way to heavy for "digital pictures" (LR is a lot faster when it comes to the tenfold stream of pictures done with a digital camera) but probably the best solution for a picture extracted from an Howtek.
J
j.e.simmons
6-Nov-2017, 04:14
Phase One’s Capture One is well worth looking at. I think the raw converter and controls are easier to use than Lightroom’s. The company has lots of very good tutorial videos on YouTube.
Pere Casals
6-Nov-2017, 04:39
for £10/month which is something I would prefer not to do.
At Ebay you can buy Photoshop CS4 Extended license for some $20, and no subscription cost. I don't find CS4 is a limitation compared to CS6 or CC, at all.
Lightroom is more intuitive... but PS is powerful. Then just buy a CS4 bible book with advanced examples, also very cheap, and learn all, read every corner "with a magnifier" twice. If you like images then any time investment in PS is pure gold that will be worth for you for ever.
PS contains a lot of features that will open your mind. Completely worth.
Understand me, I don't like at all to be digitally intrusive in my analog shots, but knowing from alfa to omega all PS it empowers your total control. Then it's up to you to use that power for creative digital edition or to bring an analog capture to it's best without being intrusive aganist authenticity. Knowing all PS allows also that: total control without being intrusive.
Another approach is GIMP, for free.
Just IMHO.
Regards
One big disadvantage with subscription Adobe is that a computer that does not go online can't run the software. If you are not hooked up to the Internet it can't communicate with Adobe and will stop working after a short time.
Per three friends who work for the company one big reason they changed to subscription is because they believe many of the users are thieves - using the programs without actually buying them. Subscription takes care of that problem for them.
Check out the alternatives and pick one or get Photoshop CS6 or older or Lightroom on the CD. Then you don't have to pay and pay and pay and pay...
Interestingly, Mike Johnston (The Online Photographer) just opened a discussion on this on his blog.
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/blog_index.html (See the posting for Sat Nov 4th.).
There's lots of interesting views but in my case, I haven't been able to find an editor that specifically offers Greyscale Management other than Photoshop. The rest of the editors all offer Colour Management but that's not the same. If anyone knows of another editor that does, please let me know.
Regards
Dave
angusparker
6-Nov-2017, 09:10
Viewscan is cheap scanning software that works with just about any scanner. Not as powerful as SilverFast but far easier to learn the workflow. Photoshop (an old version like CS4 is fine) is a must for cleaning up dust from the negative. Pop in free Nik collection plugins in the plugin folder and you have an amazing tool. Lightroom is great for managing thousands of digital images and doing basic image processing but lacks the key tools for dust management so it’s not worth it to use for LF.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
angusparker
6-Nov-2017, 09:12
Consider making digital negatives on Pictorico by enlarging scans in Photoshop applying curves for silver or platinum etc and contact printing. Reduces equipment needed and you can wet print.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
ventdesable
6-Nov-2017, 09:25
Time to download Nick Collection...
Google sold it to DXO. It might not be available for long...
http://https://www.google.com/nikcollection/
J
Due to the time difference it seems I have a large amount of replies to work through for which I thank you all.
Drew Saunder: Due to cost I mainly shoot FP4+ so not having greyscale is, I guess, a deal breaker for anything that can't handle it. File sizes for a 10x8 black and white from the Howtek can be 1.1Gb when I scan at 4000dpi. I do have a box of Provia 100 which I will be limited to scan at 2000dpi but that will generate files approaching 2Gb so these programs will have to be able to handle these huge files. Free trial and then chuck a big file at it seems to be the way to go whatever the program.
Winger: Maybe I misunderstood but I thought that LR dodged and burned whilst PS altered the image subject (made fat girls thin etc.)
Jim Andrada: The only viable option may be to subscribe but I need to understand things first
Ventdesable: Never ever will I be shooting hundreds of thousand, not even thousands, and possibly not several hundred 10x8s but dust removal would be an advantage. I scan in tiff as the Aurora scan software only outputs in TIF or EPS. I do have a number of 5x4 velvia transparencies from several years ago and will be shooting at least one box of Provia and maybe some Velvia from our friend in Japan when funds allow. Your summary is to forget LR as it is too focused on digital and go for PS CS6 which is better for my film only interest?
JE Simmons: So I've heard but the price is too expensive for me comparing to LR/PS
will have to post these replies to "page 1" posts. Replies to page 2 shortly
Pere Casals: I like your phrase "digitally intrusive" which is exactly what I want to avoid. I know by taking this approach I am always likely to be disappointed with my images but, hopefully, I will learn and improve a little at a time. Wise words about mastering the chosen tool which i will endeavour to do once we decide which way to go
Willie: I don't have iTunes, Spotify, and don't subscribe to cable or satellite tv. Heck, I don't even own a mobile phone (honest) so it is completely outside of my nature to subscribe to a rental program for a computer program. Maybe it's my age as my daughter doesn't understand the concept of purchasing a physical music recording on CD etc
DHodson: Not the only one then who is uncomfortable with the situation, but greyscale is where i am usually found so if that rules out all the alternatives then this thread has been worth it. Worryingly, until reading through the replies i never even considered that greyscale was not part of all photo programs arsenal but it just shows what a Luddite i am
AngusParker: I can't see on the Howtek on the Viewscan list of supported scanners. Another vote for PS for dust removal. "LR not worth it for use on LF" - noted. Digital negatives sounds interesting as a nice to have extra within the program i decide upon.
Ventdesable: Not sure what Nik is but I've taken your advice and downloaded it!
So, what I need:
Dodge and burn
Dust removal
Tone and tint (yes this is a new nice to have)
Work with files up to 2Gb
Greyscale for black and white
Can deal with TIFF
No need for continual upgrade to match RAW files for yet-to-be-released cameras
faberryman
6-Nov-2017, 15:13
No need for continual upgrade to match RAW files for yet-to-be-released cameras
All software needs to be upgraded to handle new RAW files.
No, what i'm saying is that I don't need a program to handle new RAW files as I only shoot film and scan on TIFF. I thought RAW was something that was specifically for digital cameras or am I mistaken?
I've moved back to 4x5 film as well and have been experimenting with Jon Cone's Piezography ink set. My understanding so far is that Gray Gamma 2.2 is essential and from what I can find out so far is that Photoshop is the only package that lets you set the Grayscale Management. Jon outlines this further in sections 4 &5 of his downloadable manual. None of the other packages that I contacted have it so by default, it looks like Photoshop is the one for me. As an aside, it might be worth having a look at his manual - he has some observations regarding scanning resolutions in Section 6.
Eventually I hope to learn how to contact print kallitypes and I picked up some Pictorico but that's still a work in progress - so much to do and so little time.
Regards
Dave
ventdesable
7-Nov-2017, 04:28
Hello Sweep,
I did guess right. In your case, LR is out of use. It is a fantastic software. but you do not need it.
You should really find out Adobe Photoshop CS2. You will get it from Adobe for free. I cannot give you a strait link as I know that it is deeply buried in their site. But Google really is your friend and will help you.
In this version, you will find all what you need and asked for. It was when they released the Spot Healing Brush wich is a very efficient tool.
You will alsoe get ACR (Adobe Camera Raw) wich, even if it's name talks about RAW files, goes along with your TIFF files. You will be able to make all global corrections needed (Tonal, Colors, White Balance) and even some "tinting" (play with highlights & shadow to get hot or cold tints). Then he picture is opened in Photoshop where you can do all dodge and burn needed with masks. I don't really see what you mean by "Greyscale for black and white" but let's assume that you'll find it in it.
Nicks collection (wich I don't use) is a collection where you'll find different tools. The most exciting one (in my mind) is u-points where you can select a color and work on it on a restricted place (you can modify blues only, including, wether you choose it or not, sky or not for instance). The two other usefull tools are noise & sharpening. They can be used globaly or with u-points. You can, for instance, do a local sharpening on an eye, or denoise only the shadows of your velvia.
If you want to print digital negatives ; you will have to calibrate your printer. Go to http://http://www.botzilla.com (http://http://www.botzilla.com/blog/archives/000544.html) and use Chart Throb. And then get the best of two worlds : your FP4 and the already dodged & burned contact negative. You can even considere doing alternative photography : you just have to calibrate your print.
Sharpening is going to be in the (steep) learning curve. The hard point is knowing how not to go to far and it is defenetely needed if you don't want your pictures to be too soft. Trys and errors are on your path...
J
So, what I need:
Dodge and burn
Dust removal
Tone and tint (yes this is a new nice to have)
Work with files up to 2Gb
Greyscale for black and white
Can deal with TIFF
No need for continual upgrade to match RAW files for yet-to-be-released cameras
That's pretty much how I work and what I usually need in software as well.
Photoshop - dust removal, resizing, color balance
Lightroom - dodge & burn, greyscale, TIFF files, export
then back to PS to print
The question is will the Lightroom interface work for you?
You need to try it and compare to there software; I think LR is a fantastic way to dodge and burn. That can be done to an extremely accurate level and the process isn't complicated.
Here's a screengrab from Photoshop. I haven't found any other package with the Grayscale options.
I'm still learning my way around working spaces and colour management but my understanding is that embedding the Gamma 2.2 allows a proper match between what you see on the screen and what the printer will print with the Piezography ink set since the ink curves were developed using Gamma 2.2 and each respective paper. Also, apparently converting to single channel grayscale reduces the file size by 2/3 without losing anything as opposed to a colour managed 3 channel grayscale (ie RGB).
Maybe it isn't an issue if you're okay with the file sizes and you're staying with the OEM inks though. Epson's ABW driver looks like it produces good results.
Anyway, these are my understandings but if anyone knows differently, let me know.
Regards
Dave
171665
ericantonio
7-Nov-2017, 10:50
I've been using Darktable on Linux. They just ported it to Windows. I love it but the "spotting" tool is a little clumsy. So if I have to spot I'll use Lightroom. I was lucky it took me a day of googling to install the last non CC version of Lightroom.
drew.saunders
8-Nov-2017, 09:40
Just tried Pixelmator, which is also available for a short term free trial (http://www.pixelmator.com/mac/free-trial/). It handled my 200MB greyscale LF scan pretty well, perhaps even faster than other software. I'm not a fan of the interface, but it does seem capable, and worth testing.
Gimp won't support 16-bit until version 2.10, it's at 2.8.22 now.
tonyowen
9-Nov-2017, 11:55
Like Sweep, I'm considered a Luddite - especially by my granddaughters.
However, I have PS CS2, the free one for which you need an access code.
I also use Gimp 2.8., but I have problems 'understanding' how to make the best of Gimp.
CS2 also comes with ImageReady [a bitmap graphics editor] and Bridge [a digital asset management app]
For me CS2 works and Gimp 2.8 is kinda useful and both are free
regards
Tony
Hi Guys,
Sorry for my delayed reply but I have been working away all week and find it hard enough reading, and understanding (!), all your replies on a large screen never mind an ipad so I am now trying to catch up.
DHodson: Thanks for the referral to the Piezo site which I will check out. At the moment I am using OEM inks, well actually that's because I haven't yet printed anything so have the starter cartridges loaded. Like I said in my first post, the missing link in my set-up is that between scanner and printer. If only PS has greyscale and that is needed fro B&W then I guess that is where I'm heading.
Ventdesable: Following on from my reply to DHodson, thanks for the info about CS2 which, like you suggest, can be easily found via Google. I am sure I will never use a tenth of what will be available with the latest PS so i'm hoping the CS2 will suffice. I do have a Spyderprint so guess I will be able to formulate my own profiles if I do decide to change from OEM.
Ari: You use both LR and PS and swap between the two for different functions? I ask as you appear to dodge & burn within LR but Ventesable suggests it can be done in PS. Do I need both? I can actually do image correction in the Aurora scanner software but kind of didn't consider it because of the age (I know that probably sounds silly) so that is another option.
Ericantionio: I think dust removal and spotting will be really important due to the large negative size so the easier the better would be ideal
Drew: I suppose being a complete amateur means that I have no expectations of any interface so will give it a go this weekend. I'll throw a 1.2gb file at it and see how it like it!
Tonyowen: I'm going to give CS2 a go because it's free and I have nothing to lose. I guess it was a typo when you wrote "you need an access code" or do I actually need one?
171809
Well I think ive found CS2 and got myself a login but everytime I click the CS2 link it takes me to buy the latest version :-(
http://www.adobe.com/uk/downloads/other-downloads.html
toyotadesigner
10-Nov-2017, 12:57
Use Vuescan for digitizing your images, and for plain and simple image editing PhotoLine or Affinity. It works. However, Affinity Photo currently features a bug for printing, so currently PhotoLine is - in my opinion - a good and rock solid editor.
Use Vuescan for digitizing your images, and for plain and simple image editing PhotoLine or Affinity. It works. However, Affinity Photo currently features a bug for printing, so currently PhotoLine is - in my opinion - a good and rock solid editor.
I don't think Viewscan supports the Howtek scanner
toyotadesigner
10-Nov-2017, 13:44
Nope. Sorry, but I read just the first page of this thread, and the OP did not mention having a Howtek.
However, usually these scanners came with a proprietary software - so why not use it maybe with an old system, which is connected via LAN to the machine with the image editor?
I am the OP and did mention the Howtek on the very first post but you must have missed it
Ari: You use both LR and PS and swap between the two for different functions? I ask as you appear to dodge & burn within LR but Ventesable suggests it can be done in PS. Do I need both? I can actually do image correction in the Aurora scanner software but kind of didn't consider it because of the age (I know that probably sounds silly) so that is another option.
Sweep, I use PS and LR to do different things because each software has its strengths and weaknesses in different areas. I worked out a method of using both for different functions after a lot of trial and error.
The spotting tool in PS is vastly superior to the one in LR; the dodge/burn tool is faster and easier to use in LR.
Both can do just about anything you want, but by trying each of them I can play to each program's strengths.
tonyowen
11-Nov-2017, 02:15
Tonyowen: I'm going to give CS2 a go because it's free and I have nothing to lose. I guess it was a typo when you wrote "you need an access code" or do I actually need one?171809
By access code I mean/meant the 24-numeric code that allows you to access CS2. Don't know why you go to the pop-up to buy the latest version - mine does not. Suggest that maybe you've ticked a box that permits this. If necessary, unload the program and reinstall to see if you had missed or misunderstood one of the many options.
regards
Tony
tonyowen
11-Nov-2017, 02:38
Sweep - Update,
it appears that the 'legally free CS2' has been discontinued by Adobe.
However, if you send me a PM with an email address I'm quite happy to send you a copy of the CS2 setup file I downloaded from the Adobe site.
No guarantee that it will work even though mine is dated March 2016.
regards
Tony
ventdesable
12-Nov-2017, 06:03
Well... a quick search on google gave this link http://https://forums.adobe.com/thread/2213295 on Adobe's forum. Second and third answers link you to the download page. You will probably have to connect to your adobe's acount (or create one) witch is by no means important. And you'll be driven to the rightfull page where you'll find all what you need.
Writing those lines took me a lot more time than it took to find back the links ;-)
171911
On the right colomn you'll find the serial number attached to it. Easy.
Jérôme
bob carnie
12-Nov-2017, 09:45
Phase One’s Capture One is well worth looking at. I think the raw converter and controls are easier to use than Lightroom’s. The company has lots of very good tutorial videos on YouTube.
I am in the process of Learning Capture One as a lot of my clients are using Phase, and from what I understand the software would be interesting for me as it separates the Luminance Channel from the colour channels, I have been working with LAB for over 12 years now so I think I am going to give this program a run for its money.
I do a lot of BW conversions, BW Separations and a lot of channel mixing to make negatives so my goal is to see how Capture One can work seamlessly with PhotoShop. I absolutely hate Lightroom and from what I am being told Capture One is much better to do the things that I do with Lightroom.
Thanks to the guidance of you all, and in particular TonyOwen and Ventdesable, I have managed to download a copy of PS CS2.
This should get me a little closer to an actual printed image although I did nearly weep in frustration when the program notes advised it would grey-out the printer tab for any image with greater than 30,000 x 30,000 pixels.
I can see now that actually getting the program is only the beginning of the story as there is tons to learn to make a good looking image. YouTube here we come!
j.e.simmons
17-Nov-2017, 04:30
I am in the process of Learning Capture One as a lot of my clients are using Phase, and from what I understand the software would be interesting for me as it separates the Luminance Channel from the colour channels, I have been working with LAB for over 12 years now so I think I am going to give this program a run for its money.
I do a lot of BW conversions, BW Separations and a lot of channel mixing to make negatives so my goal is to see how Capture One can work seamlessly with PhotoShop. I absolutely hate Lightroom and from what I am being told Capture One is much better to do the things that I do with Lightroom.
Take a look at Richard Boutwell’s site
Http://bwmastery.com
He uses Capture One for BW conversions. Also a friendly guy.
stawastawa
20-Dec-2017, 17:47
Possible list of alternatives, and one person's experience: https://petapixel.com/2017/12/15/tested-10-photoshop-alternatives/
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