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lungovw
4-Nov-2017, 05:58
A couple of years ago I bought this lens at Bièvres Foire Photo. It is a Petzval type that follows exactly the lens design we find in Kingslake's book (History ...): a front cemented doublet and a rear air spaced doublet. Even the thickness and relative surface radius match the scheme. But the serial number is 46559, that points to a very late production of a very old design. Lenses diameter is 80 mm (all the same) . Does anybody know the manufacturing year for this lens? and/or provide any info about it, like advertising, listing in sales catalogue... whatever.

171554
171555
171556
171557

studiochrom
4-Nov-2017, 06:10
its a portrait petzval made by Hermagis, probably around 1900-1905 (see serial number). petzval lenses were quite successfull for quite a long time so the manufacturers (especially the ones who lasted longer) made alot of those. look in D'Agostini s book for more info.

i would guess (from your description), that it has a focal lenght of about 300mm at ~ F4

lungovw
4-Nov-2017, 06:45
Thank you, Studiochrom, for the information. I checked D'Agostini but he only mentions the early Petzval lenses from Hermagis (up to 1862). Do you know any chart with Hermagis serial numbers x year of production I could refer too?

studiochrom
4-Nov-2017, 07:50
he mentions the models when they came up. that doesnt mean that the lens types (see aplanats...) werent produced after that in same or similar outfit. sometime the manufacturers made some changes to the models over the years/decades, sometimes they were produced almost the same like when they were presented the first time.

in this case it really was a succesfull design, which was produced over many decades.

you can check out dans site (http://www.antiquecameras.net/petzvallens/oldarticle.html) and narrow down the lens to early 1900ies..

jaytral
4-Nov-2017, 14:23
171571

Steven Tribe
4-Nov-2017, 15:10
This is described as the series I Portrait in the 20th Century by Hermagis, but is, in fact, a continuation of the first Portrait Petzval made early on by Hermagis. Series II are similar, but a lot faster (F.2.7 - F.3.5) and are a later design. The series III portrait is the Eidoscope!

My separate source agrees with Jaytral's table.

This series eventually got a black enamel finish, like the later Eidoscopes!

lungovw
4-Nov-2017, 17:38
Thank you!!! It is always a sort or relief when we get to know the pedigree of these survivors. It is like rescuing and reconnecting them to history.

alex from holland
5-Nov-2017, 09:01
Have you checked the glass for writings?
Most of the time the year of build was written on the side of the front glass.

goamules
7-Nov-2017, 17:40
Exactly.

lungovw
15-Nov-2017, 06:45
Besides Hermagis Opticien à Paris I have the following figures:

172015
172016

Those are in the doublet and rear meniscus. The biconvex has such a thin border that nothing is written on it.
None is a clear "year". Should I take the 09 as 1909?

Amedeus
15-Nov-2017, 09:15
1909 seems about right in light of the serial number

The number preceding the 09 are most likely the focal length numbers for the individual elements, easy to verify.

Cheers,

Rudi A.

Steven Tribe
15-Nov-2017, 09:21
Yes! Hermagis used the last two digits - both in the 19th and 20th centuries.

It matches well with the known matches of serial numbers and dates of production.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?106533-Hermagis-Serial-numbers-Need-your-help-with-a-database/page2&highlight=hermagis+serial

lungovw
15-Nov-2017, 11:24
Looking to Jaytral's chart I was wondering what the size "carte-album" would be. After more than one hour on books I have in paper or digital and on the web I found in Fabre T3 that carte-album is 10 x 14 cm. Meanwhile I found also that the carte-boudoir is 6.5 x 8.5" and cabinet means 5x8" (those I found in an advertising in Philadelphia Photographer 1884). Carte-de-Visite is an easy one: 54x89 mm, found on Wikipedia. Does anybody know a good summary/history of those formats? It would be nice to have it condensed somewhere.

lungovw
15-Nov-2017, 12:26
More about the carte-album format: I found an interesting book with good descriptions of the most important photographic studios in Europe (from 1882).
It says that the "cabinet" format was introduced in London and became later the "carte-album" in other countries:
"But the Window and Grove establishment has other claims upon history. The cabinet portrait was born here. Mr. Window was the first to suggest and press upon the attention of the public this familiar style, which has not only become popular in this country, but as the "carte album" is in favour throughout the Continent and in America".

But 10x14 cm (Fabre) does not match 5x8" (in Philadelphia Photographer ad - 1884) that would be 12.7 x 20.32 cm (?) I think Fabre wouldn't be wrong about carte-album. I need to confirm the cabinet format somewhere else. Wikipedia says cabinet card is: 108 by 165 mm ( 4 1⁄4 by  6 1⁄2 inches). Any other clue?

This is a link to download it: https://archive.org/details/studiosofeurope00prit

Amedeus
4-Dec-2017, 12:55
Besides Hermagis Opticien à Paris I have the following figures:

172015
172016

Those are in the doublet and rear meniscus. The biconvex has such a thin border that nothing is written on it.
None is a clear "year". Should I take the 09 as 1909?


Have you measured the focal length of this lens ?

Cheers,

lungovw
5-Dec-2017, 09:32
No, I took for granted what is written on that catalogue (posted above) mentioning that the portrait Nº 5 should be 310 mm. Do you think it could be otherwise?

Amedeus
5-Dec-2017, 16:31
No, I took for granted what is written on that catalogue (posted above) mentioning that the portrait Nº 5 should be 310 mm. Do you think it could be otherwise?

I have quite a few lenses that do not follow catalog. There were often "specials" ... some are clearly labeled like a #5 and a 5A or even 5B but some are not labeled at all. That's why I always measure.

Reason in particular to ask for your lens is that you have in total 4 numbers on your lenses. If I feed those into my calculator assuming that these relate to the focal length of the individual lens elements, then I arrive at a shorter focal length and a lower f # of course.

Just double checking. Either my assumption is right or it's wrong and then the 4 numbers are unrelated to focal length.

Thanks for the support.

Cheers,

lungovw
11-Dec-2017, 15:56
Rudi, good point. I will check it out and let you know. I am still working on a camera to fit this lens. Cheers