Fujinon W f6.5 360mm vs Nikkor W f6.5 360mm

[Sweep]

I am finally getting round to researching a second lens for my 10x8 to compliment my Apo-Symmar 240mm and think I will get a 360mm. I am considering the Nikkor W and Fujinon W as they have a smaller front barrel than the Schneider and Rodenstock offerings so will still work with the Lee 100 filter system
Looking at those for sale on Ebay I seem to find that the Nikkors come at a premium of around 30% over the Fujis and wondered why this might be and whether it was justified. The Nikkors being around £600 and the Fujis £460.The only thing I can see id that the Fuji carries the silver shutter speed ring whilst the Nikkors the later (?) black one.

Amy guidance would be appreciated.

...Sweep

[Luis-F-S]

14" plasmats are beasts why not look at a G-Claron or a 12" Dagor?

[Leigh]

The Nikon W 360/6.5 (which I have) has a slightly larger image circle (494mm) than the Fujinon CM-W 360/6.5 (485mm). The Fujinon lens is slightly smaller, although both are in Copal 3 shutters.

Since the diagonal of 8x10 film is only 325mm, either lens gives you lots of movements.

The IC of the APO-Symmar 240mm is only 352mm, so a big difference.

- Leigh

[Sweep]

Hi Luis, I guess I am only looking at what is commonly available. As far as the focal length is concerned I am leaning towards a 360mm as it seems far enough away from the 240mm to make a difference without becoming extreme.

Hi Leigh, So lots of movement on either lens. Just checking the charts and the Fuji has a smaller filter thread compared to the Nikon (86 to 95mm) and is also considerably lighter by 245grams (8.6oz). I do like the black shutter speed dial though i'm not sure if its worth the extra £150 just to have both my lens look the same.

...Sweep

[xkaes]

I do like the black shutter speed dial though i'm not sure if its worth the extra £150 just to have both my lens look the same.

Some like blondes, some like brunettes. In the end.....?

[Luis-F-S]

I have all 4 and use my 12" Dagor most over 91/2 and 14" lenses

[David Karp]

Silver ring shutters are just fine.

[Ari]

Performance-wise, you'd be hard-pressed to see a difference between the Fuji and Nikon.
Having owned more Fuji lenses than Nikons, I can say the Fujis are excellent lenses, and despite the price difference, are at least the equal of Nikons.

[David Karp]

I agree with Ari. I have several Fujinon lenses, from 125mm to 450mm, including some in the single coated W series and the multicoated NW series (which is labeled "W" on the outside of the lens barrel for some unknown reason). All are excellent lenses. I would save the money and avoid the extra bulk of the Nikon by buying the Fuji if it were me.

[Vaughn]

I am using an older Fuji W 360/6.3 (inside lettering if it makes a difference) for 8x10 and 11x14 (carefully and closed down significantly). I do not believe there is a great bit of difference between mine and the more recent CM-W as far as design and coverage.

It is a fine lens for 8x10 with no worries of running out of image circle. I appreciate the f6.3 when working under the redwoods (my other Fuji Ws are 300/5.6 and 250/6.7). Not a light-weight, by any means!

[Luis-F-S]

Silver ring shutters are just fine.

+1!!!

[xkaes]

I am using an older Fuji W 360/6.3 (inside lettering if it makes a difference) for 8x10 and 11x14 (carefully and closed down significantly). I do not believe there is a great bit of difference between mine and the more recent CM-W as far as design and coverage.

The 360mm W and CM-W have the same image circle and filter thread size. The CM-W is SLIGHTLY slower (f6.5 vs f6.3). They both have six elements, but the CM-W has a full air-space design -- whether that makes for significantly improved results????? At least you won't have to worry about balsam separation!

[Sweep]

Thanks guys. When you see things listed that are apparently the same quality but at considerably different prices I have to ask the question, why?
My comment about the silver shutter ring was half tongue-in-cheek but I also thought it might be a indicator of age. For some reason I got it in my head that the black shutter rings were newer

[karl french]

Yes, the silver ring Copal 3 shutters are older. The Fuji lenses weren't marketed that strongly in the US and the Nikon name has the cachet. Thus the price difference. Both are fine lenses. I have both Fuji and Nikon large format lenses in my collection.

[xkaes]

Newer shutters are more likely to be black. That is true for most lens companies. Does that make them better? That depends on their history/use -- which with a used lens you can only guess about. The newer Fuji 360mm is a 6/6 air-spaced lens. I can't speak about the Nikon. Others will. Why would Fuji move to an air-spaced design -- as they did with MOST of their lenses -- if they didn't think it helped? Remember, they were competing against Nikon, Schneider, and Rodenstock.

[Pere Casals]

Newer shutters are more likely to be black. That is true for most lens companies. Does that make them better? That depends on their history/use -- which with a used lens you can only guess about. The newer Fuji 360mm is a 6/6 air-spaced lens. I can't speak about the Nikon. Others will. Why would Fuji move to an air-spaced design -- as they did with MOST of their lenses -- if they didn't think it helped? Remember, they were competing against Nikon, Schneider, and Rodenstock.

Air spacing is good for designing corrections as it gives more freedom to the designer, but it is bad for flare as we have more air-glass surfaces bouncing photons back and forth and producing flare, etc

At the time, Fuji delayed a lot their multicoating EBC system, Electron Beam Coating was hard to put in production, but it allowed coatings of "11 layers" and using ZrO2, that had a too high melting point (2700ºC) for the by then regular filament coating systems.

This is the history I was told...

I don't how much time that advantage was mantained or if it was a superior coating system compared to the other 3, but it is clear that Fuji then made extensive advertisement of his "best" coating.

That success (since last 70s) allowed them to push new designs with more air gaps and still mantaining good contrast and flat spectral response.

It is also clear that Nikon also had excellent coating technology in the 80s, this is made clear with their 35mm pro zooms incorporating a lot of groups.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6092/7028835671_b8887b7475_b.jpg

[David Karp]

It is true that Fujinons often cost less than comparable lenses from the other three major manufacturers of modern lenses. They did not have a U.S. distributor for many years. A few stores imported them directly. Midwest Photo Exchange used to import used lenses into the U.S.A. from Japan. There is no quality penalty from using Fujinons. They are often available at very reasonable prices for a great lens. Sometimes, particular examples of Fujinon lenses are highly sought after and very expensive. An example is the 360mm version of the A series.

As for shutters, the jagged edged silver ring Copal shutters on my single coated 180mm and 250mm Fujinon W lenses seem more robust than the more modern ones. That may be my imagination, but they work fine, for sure. When I tested all of my lenses for speed, they were all over the place. Some black rimmed shutters were less accurate than the older silver ring shutters. Some black rimmed shutters were pretty accurate too. Xkaes is right. You never know how hard a used lens was used. And the specs allow for pretty wide variation. That is why I said silver ring shutters are fine. Unless there is an obvious problem with a shutter, which you can't evaluate unless you can operate it and perhaps even test it for speed, let someone else pay extra for a black shutter. I would rather save money and put it toward film or another lens in the future.

[xkaes]

To add to this, much depends on your subjects. Shutters tend to be less accurate at higher speeds. I really can't remember a time when I used a shutter speed faster than 1/30. And at that speed -- or lower -- my ear will tell me if the shutter is off because I pay attention to it. Usually, I am counting seconds, on T, so if there is a problem it is with me (too much cheap wine) and not the shutter!

[Alan Gales]

I am using an older Fuji W 360/6.3 (inside lettering if it makes a difference) for 8x10 and 11x14 (carefully and closed down significantly). I do not believe there is a great bit of difference between mine and the more recent CM-W as far as design and coverage.

Vaughn, I think that all the earlier inside lettering Fuji lenses were single coated and all the later outside lettering lenses were multicoated.

I own the same Fuji 250mm f/6.7 (inside lettering) lens as you and also a Fuji 180mm (inside lettering) lens. Both of mine are single coated.

[xkaes]

Vaughn, I think that all the earlier inside lettering Fuji lenses were single coated and all the later outside lettering lenses were multicoated.

Almost, but not quite. Some EBC coated lenses were marked INSIDE the filter ring:

www.subclub.org/fujinon/

[Alan Gales]

Almost, but not quite. Some EBC coated lenses were marked INSIDE the filter ring:

www.subclub.org/fujinon/

Thanks, I learned something new today!

[Drew Wiley]

Fuji lenses are every bit as good as German lenses or Nikkors. Price differences were more due to company import policy and exchange rates. At one point, when the Yen was low and the Mark was high, I sold my German lenses and replaced them with Fujis and Nikkors. Present used lens pricing just reflects price and demand, and what sellers imagine they can get, and that fluctuates. Some lens formulas changed over the years as specialty glass types became restricted. Copal shutters never seem good at the very highest speed; but nobody uses that anyway. I have Copal black shutters, silver shutters, and even old 3s ones. They're all well within a third of a stop at all other speeds. But I use a shutter tester and avoid funky-looking bargain lenses.

[Alan Gales]

But I use a shutter tester and avoid funky-looking bargain lenses.

What Drew? No Jim Galli budget soft focus lenses for you? :)

http://tonopahpictures.0catch.com



I agree with you about owning a shutter speed tester. They are useful!

[Sweep]

Having spotted a couple of scratches on the glass on the photos of the Fuji, and having it confirmed by the seller, who amended their ebay listing to suit, i ended up buying a Nikkor W f6.5 360mm. Wow, this thing is a beast and i can't wait to try it out.
Small problem i have is that it was supplied on a thick hardwood Deardoff board which is too large for my Wilderness V.
I think the lens will just about fit on a Linhof board but i need to make a Copal 3 spacer ring to make up the difference between the old wooden board and the modern cast aluminium Shen Hao boards.
I do have a spacer ring on my Apo-Symmar 240mm but, so i don't have to strip it down, wondered if anyone had the correct dimensions of these rings so i can make one up on my lathe.

thanks ...Sweep

[Luis-F-S]

Wow, this thing is a beast and i can't wait to try it out.


I seem to recall saying that! L

[Leigh]

I can say the Fujis are excellent lenses, and despite the price difference, are at least the equal of Nikons.
I agree.

I own a few Fujis and a few Nikkors. They all are excellent.
(Most of my lenses are APO-Sironar_S)

- Leigh

[Greg]

I've shot with several Nikkor and Fujinon lenses of the same focal lengths over the years. Have found that that the Fujinons cover a bit more than the Nikkors but the Nikkors are a tad bit sharper (but not enough to matter unless you are making 20x24" prints, and even then the difference is hard to tell). Nikkors a bit more contrasty but again the difference is hard to notice. Once shot 4x5 chromes of the same scene with a 210mm Nikkor and a 210mm Fujinon, and side by side on a light box they were both equally sharp, but one was a few cc's different than the other, but not enough to matter by any means. My 210mm Fujinon now resides with my 8x10 and my 210mm Nikkor resides with my whole plate... each just feels right for their format.... a very, very subjective opinion on my part.

[Sweep]

I seem to recall saying that! L

Indeed you did Luis. Indeed you did :)
My decision for the Nikon eventually came down to what was available and the fact that the lower cost, silver shutter ring, Fuji had a front element scratch; something that i would never be happy with.
I could have bought an older Schneider or Rodenstock a lot cheaper in Europe, one finished on Ebay yesterday in England for £250 with no bids, but these have even larger front element diameters with, i believe, 112mm filter thread which would not work with my Lee 100 system.
Anyway, chuffed to bits with the pristine condition of the lens.

...Sweep

[Luis-F-S]

I just know how big my 355 G-Claron is, and the plasmat is even bigger! My 12" & 14" Dagors are much smaller! In fact, my 12" Dagor is my most used lens in 8x10 or 10x8! The 12" KCE is also smaller. But again, the 14" plasmats make great paperweights and door stoppers when not in use! :p

[Sweep]

I have just made a risk assessment for when i use the Nikon and think it would be sensible to wear steel toe-capped boots in case i drop the thing :)

[zbvision]

[QUOTE=Sweep; i ended up buying a Nikkor W f6.5 360mm. Wow, this thing is a beast and i can't wait to try it out.
thanks ...Sweep[/QUOTE]


How are you liking the Nikon Nikkor W f/6.5 360mm? Has it produced sharp and contrasty negatives for you? Any input on this lens would be greatly appreciated as I am debating on getting one. Many Thanks!

[Drew Wiley]

Excuse a pun, but isn't this kinda like comparing a Fuji apple to a Honeycrisp apple?

[Thom Bennett]

Not a common lens but I found a 360mm Commercial Congo that is small and light, relative to the plasmats. Takes 67mm filters and is in a Copal shutter. Essentially, a modern version of the 14" KCE. My 2nd favorite lens on 8x10.

[Sweep]

How are you liking the Nikon Nikkor W f/6.5 360mm? Has it produced sharp and contrasty negatives for you? Any input on this lens would be greatly appreciated as I am debating on getting one. Many Thanks!

I have used it with great results for portraits but seem never to get a suitable landscape composition for it. Unfortunately, the opportunities I get for people are not as frequent as those in the landscape.
I am happy with it but it doesn't get the use I had hoped it would.
I will try get a image loaded up for you tomorrow

[zbvision]

I have used it with great results for portraits but seem never to get a suitable landscape composition for it. Unfortunately, the opportunities I get for people are not as frequent as those in the landscape.
I am happy with it but it doesn't get the use I had hoped it would.
I will try get a image loaded up for you tomorrow

If you potentially have the time to upload both a portrait and landscape image taken with the Nikon Nikkor W 360mm f/6.5 lens then that would be truly appreciated! I've been caught at somewhat of an impasse in regards to making the jump from 4x5 to 8x10 solely because I've been debating on purchasing one of the these two lenses: a Fujinon CM-W 360mm f/6.5 or the Nikon Nikkor W 360mm f/6.5. Trying to decide whether the Nikon is worth the extra weight as I'm hardly ever in a studio type setting. I tend to photograph out in the world more than in a controlled environment, which is why I recently acquired a Deardorff v8 Field Camera. I do take just as many portraits as I do landscapes.

[Mark Sampson]

zbvision, I have not used either of the two lenses mentioned here. I have used other nikon and Fuji large-format lenses, some of them for decades. Both brands provide superb, top-quality optics. I'll say that even the most discerning observer would have trouble telling which lens was which, when viewing prints from negatives made under similar circumstance. You can't go wrong with either one- buy on price and condition. Any slight difference in weight between the two brands will be insignificant compared to the total weight of a Deardorff field kit.

[Sweep]

zbvision, I have not used either of the two lenses mentioned here. I have used other nikon and Fuji large-format lenses, some of them for decades. Both brands provide superb, top-quality optics. I'll say that even the most discerning observer would have trouble telling which lens was which, when viewing prints from negatives made under similar circumstance. You can't go wrong with either one- buy on price and condition. Any slight difference in weight between the two brands will be insignificant compared to the total weight of a Deardorff field kit.

Completely agree with Mark. I recall my final decision was based on condition and, curiously, the aesthetics of the lens as the Nikkor's tended to have the later all black shutter fitted. And yes, the additional weight is noticeable in my rucksack (Mindshift FirstLight 40L) to a point that I sometimes question the logic of carrying the 360mm as I tend to always use my Schneider 240mm for landscapes