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xkaes
3-Nov-2017, 10:11
I'm just curious. How many of us pre-soak our film -- of whatever format -- before processing it (whatever that means)?

I don't see a way to set up a poll on this forum, and perhaps there is a way, but for now:

Do you pre-soak your film? Always/Sometimes/Never

In what? Distilled water/Filtered water/Tap water/Other(specify)

At what temp? Tap temp/Specific temp

How long? Minutes

Comments:

Oren Grad
3-Nov-2017, 10:15
There is a "post a poll" option in the "post new thread" setup screen - scroll down toward the bottom. If you'd like to do that we can merge the threads.

PS: I don't ever presoak.

Jim Jones
3-Nov-2017, 10:23
Always, tap water at room temperature (same as developer). A presoak for film is necessary for some developers such as Solarol and negatives developed in fast-working paper developer.

xkaes
3-Nov-2017, 10:29
Do you pre-soak your film? Always/Sometimes/Never

In what? Distilled water/Filtered water/Tap water/Other(specify)

At what temp? Tap temp/Specific temp

How long? Minutes

Comments:

xkaes
3-Nov-2017, 10:32
I set up a poll in DARKROOM, but it appears to only allow for one question. Is there a way to ask multiple questions?

Daniel Stone
3-Nov-2017, 10:52
BW- 70F - 2x1min successive baths. Tap water
C41 - 100F - same time regimen as above, Tap water
E6 I send to a lab now.

If I had extra high mineral content in my municipal water supply, I would use distilled water for all BW process steps except pre-soak, hypo clear and photo flo/final rinse steps.
Since color chemicals are more sensitive to "added ingredients" found in many municipalities water systems, I use distilled water for mixing all C41 chemicals except pre-soak, fixer and wash water.

-Dan

jnantz
3-Nov-2017, 10:57
yes, always
sometimes even paper negatives
just tap water nothing fancy
2 mins give or take a minute

** added later

the only time i haven't pre-soaked was when i was using xtol
because kodak said not to pre-soak other than that consistantly for as
long as i have been processing film ...
also, its kind of fun to pour the AH dye into developer and see
it magically disappear ..

Randy
3-Nov-2017, 11:05
Same as jnanian, doesn't matter what film - about 2 minutes in tap water at the same temp as the developer. If someone can convince me that it is unnecessary and/or detrimental to my images, I'll stop.

djhopscotch
3-Nov-2017, 11:12
Yes always, tap water at dev temp 2 minutes or so, as long as it takes for me to get the rest of the chemicals mixed and measured.

Had issues with uneven development in areas of continuous tone, presoaking made it go away. I use Jobo tanks on a unicolor motor base.

Jeff Morfit
3-Nov-2017, 11:14
I also presoak my 4x5 film for 2 minutes per Ansel Adams recommendations in his book "The Negative" at the same temp as the developer. Then, add 30 seconds to the development time as he also recommended.

xkaes
3-Nov-2017, 11:32
Unless I can figure out a way to ask multiple questions on this Forum, I might resort to setting up a PERL/HTML/CGI questionnaire on my website -- so that I can put together a useful questionnaire and get some meaningful results. I know that there are some free survey websites that will make it easier.

I think this is important stuff for all of us.

Leigh
3-Nov-2017, 11:34
I generally presoak for 2 minutes with filtered water at developer temperature.

The exception is when using Diafine (a 2-part developer). Its instructions specifically state that you should not presoak because the developer needs to soak into the dry emulsion. That's important for it to work properly.

- Leigh

Graham Patterson
3-Nov-2017, 11:43
I never used to do it when hand processing using single solution developer and roll film. When I acquired a Jobo, I used their recommendations for a pre-rinse when using single solution developer.

Now I use a two-bath developer a lot, and do not pre-rinse with that.

Michael R
3-Nov-2017, 11:44
I think this is important stuff for all of us.

Perhaps, but as I believe you've noted before, ask 10 photographers... :)

Anyhow, I presoak if I'm tray shuffling sheets (obviously). ~2 minutes in tap water, same temp as the rest of the process (dev/stop/fix/wash).

When I do roll film in tanks (manual inversion) I don't presoak, but my development times are fairly long. If they were short I'd probably presoak, and in either case a presoak shouldn't do any harm. On the other hand Ilford generally advises against it, at least with Ilford films.

Pere Casals
3-Nov-2017, 12:43
Never presoaking, I made side by side tests and I found the same result with developers I use.

Perhaps ancient films did require that, but last labs in general were not using it, nor minilabs.

Also Ilford datasheets do recommend not using pre-rinse for tanks, as it removes surfactants from emulsion than were added to ensure an even development.

Anyway I feel it has little impact doing it or not...

Ron McElroy
3-Nov-2017, 13:10
I am an always presoak in filtered tap water at the developer temp.

Jim Noel
3-Nov-2017, 13:21
Unless I can figure out a way to ask multiple questions on this Forum, I might resort to setting up a PERL/HTML/CGI questionnaire on my website -- so that I can put together a useful questionnaire and get some meaningful results. I know that there are some free survey websites that will make it easier.

I think this is important stuff for all of us.

Follow the directions sent to you by Oren Grad!

Peter Lewin
3-Nov-2017, 13:25
Always presoak 4x5 for tray processing (4 minutes) and 120 for tank processing (2 minutes), plain water at developer temperature. My developers for those are PMK and Pyrocat, and there was a long thread on APUG suggesting that the longer presoak intensified the staining effect (which is why I am trying 4 minutes for my sheet film, up from the 2 minutes I was using). I do not presoak 35mm for tank processing in d-76.

Patrick13
3-Nov-2017, 13:47
Strictly amateur so YMMV:
Unless a film specifically says no-soak, I will do the following (note that I'm using pyrocat-HD in rotary lately)
Distilled water (my urban locale has water that varies in quality)
Usually 75deg just like most of my development, as long as times are 5-6 minutes or longer I have no streaking problems
5 minutes soak on the rollers has never caused me any problems, but I'm not doing fine art quality and so might not notice

Oren Grad
3-Nov-2017, 14:00
Threads merged.

John Layton
3-Nov-2017, 14:09
I always pre-soak...typically two minutes for roll films and three minutes for sheet films. Also...with sheet films as I'm generally starting with a shuffle through the pre-soak (prior to each neg. going into individual developer trays), I'll add a few drops of Photo-Flo to the soak for a bit of added lubricity/scratch protection. Seems to work!

xkaes
3-Nov-2017, 15:21
Threads merged.

Thanks. Is there way way to TERMINATE a thread that you start?

Oren Grad
3-Nov-2017, 15:50
Thanks. Is there way way to TERMINATE a thread that you start?

No, you have to ask a moderator to close or delete a thread in the main discussion areas. (You can close but not delete your own FS/WTB threads.)

xkaes
3-Nov-2017, 17:21
Maybe if I say something EXTREMELY offensive they will shut it down! After all, that's what Facebook and Twitter do, don't they?

consummate_fritterer
3-Nov-2017, 18:22
Stop worrying so much, xkaes. It's not the end of the world if a thread goes sideways. It happens all the time in every forum genre.

FWIW, I always presoaked but that was a very long time ago, before thin emulsion tabular grain films. Those older thicker emulsions surely benefitted 'more' from a presoak than some of today's thin emulsion films. Even so, if/when I get back into developing my films, I'll surely stick with what always worked best for me even if it makes no significant difference anymore. Old habits die hard...

Always... clean/purified water for presoak, developer, toner, final few minutes of wash, final rinse. The other steps... far less important, IMO.

Serge S
3-Nov-2017, 19:21
[QUOTE=djhopscotch;1414444]Yes always, tap water at dev temp 2 minutes or so, as long as it takes for me to get the rest of the chemicals mixed and measured.

same here:)

Doremus Scudder
4-Nov-2017, 03:30
You can't shuffle sheet film in trays without pre-soaking them first to keep them from sticking together. I like a rather long pre-soak, three or more minutes. The object is to get the emulsion completely saturated so development will be even. Pre-soaking for for too-short a time will result in unevenness.

If I were developing roll film in tanks, I might not bother with a pre-soak as long as my developing times were long enough that the pour-in, pour-out times were just a small fraction of the total time.

Best,

Doremus

Pere Casals
4-Nov-2017, 04:26
...Pre-soaking for for too-short a time will result in unevenness...

Doremus

This is an interesting observation...

Perhaps a longer pre-soaking softens the emulsion in a way that surfactans are not as necessary, so a big mistake is short pre-soaking that removes the surfactants while not softening emulsion !!!




As Ilford states, pre-soaking removes surfactants specifically included in the emulsion to ensure an even development, so they do recommend not using pre-soaking in tanks, for rotary it is irrelevant. Ilford says that in film datasheets.

My understanding is that modern films do not need presoaking at all because films are designed to not need it at all: included surfactants decrease water surface tension to a level that fast and even emulsion wetting is ensured to its best.

Old films perhaps lacked surfactants...

So... what is the real pre-soaking benefit ?

Jim Jones
4-Nov-2017, 06:23
. . . So... what is the real pre-soaking benefit ?

Pre-soaking was absolutely necessary for even development when processing Tech Pan or litho film with a development time of about 45 seconds in Solarol before the reversal exposure. It also helps in short developing time in Dektol to boost contrast. I presoaked when developing 8 rolls of film at a time because of the erratic wetting in a large tank.

mdarnton
4-Nov-2017, 08:12
For about 50 years I successfully developed film without knowing this was an option. When I heard about it, I tried it for a while, but since nothing was broken in the first place, and nothing got better when I did it, I stopped.

Note that I have never developed in a tray, nor do I use any unusual developers. For most of the last 55 years I have used D76, sometimes D23, in SS reels or sheets in hangers and that's about it, and never had a problem that needed to be fixed by changing what I do.

ic-racer
4-Nov-2017, 08:37
I used to pre-soak around the 1990s to slow process times to keep rotary process times from going under the 4 minute mark (per Jobo recommendations). Later I discovered I could get rotary process times at 24C over 5 minutes without the preasoak. So, since 2000 I have not been using pre-soak.

Pere Casals
4-Nov-2017, 09:42
Pre-soaking was absolutely necessary for even development when processing Tech Pan or litho film with a development time of about 45 seconds in Solarol before the reversal exposure. It also helps in short developing time in Dektol to boost contrast. I presoaked when developing 8 rolls of film at a time because of the erratic wetting in a large tank.

OK, necessary for reversing old TP with paper developers... any other benefit with pre-soaking?

Not exactly TP, but CMS 20 datasheet also speaks about contrast: "There is no need for pre-watering the film. Pre-watering will lead to an increased contrast". http://www.adox.de/Technical_Informations/CMS20_ADOTECHII_instructions.pdf

For CMS 20 "increased contrast" is not usually desired.

Punker
5-Nov-2017, 16:58
All films all types all formats I presoak 1 - 5 mins. No exceptions unless explicitly stated otherwise.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dentkimterry
5-Nov-2017, 17:33
No pre-soak per Ilford instructions.

dksea
5-Nov-2017, 18:56
I'm just curious. How many of us pre-soak our film -- of whatever format -- before processing it (whatever that means)?

I don't see a way to set up a poll on this forum, and perhaps there is a way, but for now:

Do you pre-soak your film? Always/Sometimes/Never

In what? Distilled water/Filtered water/Tap water/Other(specify)

At what temp? Tap temp/Specific temp

How long? Minutes

Comments:Seattle tap water is pretty soft so I use it. I have been presoaking film for 5 minutes. I process mainly ilford film in 120 and 4x5.

Doug King

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

sepstein17
6-Nov-2017, 05:40
FWIW -- I always pre-soak both HP5+ and Bergger 400 pancro for 5 min. in DISTILLED water 68 - 70 deg. F - just one more step in the development process.

Per Madsen
6-Nov-2017, 08:49
Always, for two minutes with tap water at the same temperature as the developer to avoid air bubbles and for more even development.

John Layton
6-Nov-2017, 09:10
Interesting note regarding Ilford'd incorporation of surfactants to promote even development...and a warning about potential consequences of removing these surfactants via pre-soaking. Might be a bit ironic...but does not a pre-soak offer its own "surfactant" properties - which help to render the emulsion more amenable to even development? So...pre-soak vs. no pre-soak would not really matter? But then...what about the presence of anti-halation backing? I know that the presence of this backing might have no untoward effect...but I've always felt better to see this left in the pre-soak rather than in the developer.

I do have a suspicion (based on some experiences/results) that...at least to the extent that, as I tray-process by hand...a dry emulsion introduced directly into a tray of developer (especially a staining/hardening developer) is much more vulnerable to showing handling artifacts than the same emulsion which had been given a pre-soak.

As for roll films...I have in the past had some problems with some (admittedly subtle but still there) effects such as bubble-rings/streaks - noticeable in broad areas of mid to light mid-tones (such as skies) when I'd omitted a pre-soak. Makes perfect sense to me...especially given the much higher relative activity of developer to emulsion during the early phases of the development cycle.

Interesting discussion though...that after a half-century of pre-soaking - I might now have reason to question its efficacy and/or safety!

Pere Casals
6-Nov-2017, 09:56
Interesting note regarding Ilford'd incorporation of surfactants to promote even development...and a warning about potential consequences of removing these surfactants via pre-soaking. Might be a bit ironic...but does not a pre-soak offer its own "surfactant" properties - which help to render the emulsion more amenable to even development? So...pre-soak vs. no pre-soak would not really matter? But then...what about the presence of anti-halation backing? I know that the presence of this backing might have no untoward effect...but I've always felt better to see this left in the pre-soak rather than in the developer.

I do have a suspicion (based on some experiences/results) that...at least to the extent that, as I tray-process by hand...a dry emulsion introduced directly into a tray of developer (especially a staining/hardening developer) is much more vulnerable to showing handling artifacts than the same emulsion which had been given a pre-soak.

As for roll films...I have in the past had some problems with some (admittedly subtle but still there) effects such as bubble-rings/streaks - noticeable in broad areas of mid to light mid-tones (such as skies) when I'd omitted a pre-soak. Makes perfect sense to me...especially given the much higher relative activity of developer to emulsion during the early phases of the development cycle.

Interesting discussion though...that after a half-century of pre-soaking - I might now have reason to question its efficacy and/or safety!

"When sodium carbonate, one of the most commonly used alkali in film developers, comes into contact with acid (from the stop bath), carbon dioxide gas is released which can cause blistering in the emulsion of both film and paper." Page 103, The Darkroom Cookbook . IMHO bubbles are normally not due to pre-soak lack, nor bromide streaks.

Just make a test, pre-soak half of a test negative longer than the other half, you'll get a pretty uneven development, I tested that. So a short pre-soak that may end in an irregular wetting by the time developer is used, provocating unevenness. Also surfactants can be irregularly removed, I guess.

It is true that AA was recommending pre-soak, but we should know if in that era surfactants were included in the emulsion...

Andrew O'Neill
6-Nov-2017, 11:49
Never.

valdormar
7-Nov-2017, 21:42
• Do you pre-soak your film? = Always - No matter what film it is
• In what? = Cold Tap Water
• At what temp? = As Cold As It Gets. I let the cold water run for 1 min, then fill the tank/tube/tray.
• How long? = 10 min pre-soak ALWAYS

I always get the same great results for over 30 years.
Pair of Gloves (Nitrile / Latex / Rubber)
10 min pre-soak (after 5 min pour out water refill soak another 5 more min)
XTOL 1:1 68 (Before XTOL I used other Kodak Developers)
3 min Stop Bath
10 or 20 min Fixer depends on the age of the fixer and film
2 min hand wash cold soapy water
2 min hand wash cold water with a little windex window cleaner (original formula)
1 min cold water rinse
Hang to dry
No spots no scratches, rarely any dust.

chassis
8-Nov-2017, 05:49
Valdomar, what is your recipe for "cold soapy water" wash? I'm interested to try that.

Pat Kearns
9-Nov-2017, 12:06
Presoak with filtered tap water at the same temperature as developer.

Fred L
9-Nov-2017, 12:13
used to presoak sheets but not any more unless I'm processing 7x17 in a long tube, at which point I will presoak for a minute or two.

Jim Andrada
13-Nov-2017, 18:39
I use a Jobo and usually pre-soak unless I forget.

Rich14
13-Nov-2017, 19:42
I pre-soak only C-41 process. Never any of my BW.

I can't find anything to show that presoaking harms anything, but I can find plenty to show that it's unnecessary for any of today's BW films.

Rich