PDA

View Full Version : Putting 4x5 film holders in checked in luggage



ndwgolf
1-Nov-2017, 05:53
Guys
I'm flying to Japan in two weeks time to shoot the autumn colors of Osaka, Kyoto and Nara. My plan is to take Leica S with three lenses and also take my new Chamonix 45n2 with 2 lenses. I have a hard case for the Leica gear that will be my hand luggage, as for the Chamonix I will have to check that in (I'm cool with that) What I am not sure about is the fact that I will be taking 12 4x5 film holders pre loaded with Ektar 100 colour film and that will also have to get checked in as the airline we are flying with will only let you hand carry one bag even in business class :( :(
So my question is has anyone checked in Ektar film before and found that it was damaged or not??
Thanks in advance

Neil

jp
1-Nov-2017, 05:56
It will be damaged. Carry it or mail it ahead.

djdister
1-Nov-2017, 06:02
Checked baggage gets higher dose x-ray scans than carry-on bags do, so never put film in a checked bag. You could let your film holders go into checked baggage, but carry-on your film or send it ahead.

ndwgolf
1-Nov-2017, 06:02
It will be damaged. Carry it or mail it ahead.
Surly if you mail it it will still go through the same x-ray machines that are used to scan checked luggage??

diversey
1-Nov-2017, 06:04
Absolutely NO films in checked-in luggage! Put your films in carry-on luggage and ask for hand checking when going through security.

xkaes
1-Nov-2017, 07:07
Absolutely NO films in checked-in luggage! Put your films in carry-on luggage and ask for hand checking when going through security.

RIGHT. And NONE MAILED either. ALWAYS do carry-on and ask for hand inspection. In the USA, Federal regulations allow this, but some security clerks are not aware of this -- some have probably never heard of "film" before. If they balk, as for a supervisor. I've had problems before and ALWAYS carry a copy of the FAA rules.

In other countries? You are subject to their rules, so you should check them out beforehand. Your other option is to expose and process all of your film in the other country before you head home.

ndwgolf
1-Nov-2017, 07:16
RIGHT. And NONE MAILED either. .
So what happens to my film that i buy from B&H in the US and have it sent to my home in Malaysia..............does that not have to go through the same x-ray machines that the mail uses??

Neil

JMO
1-Nov-2017, 07:20
At the Japan end, typically at Narita Airport (but Im sure all others), the security people are familiar with hand checking film, and do it readily - with a smile in my experience. ....

xkaes
1-Nov-2017, 07:22
It may or may not go through X-RAYS in this country or the other(S) it travels through. Some mark the box "PHOTOGRAPHIC FILM -- DO NOT X-RAY", and hope for the best. It's up to you if you want to take that chance!

djdister
1-Nov-2017, 07:56
Insisting on hand inspection of film can be risky. A low speed film like Ektar should be fine with the carry-on level of x-ray. I took color and B&W neg from the US to Scotland and back - so it went through at least 2 carry-on x-ray inspections and not a bit of a problem. Asking for hand inspections carries with it some risk, depending on the country and the individuals you are dealing with.

Pfsor
1-Nov-2017, 08:06
At the Japan end, typically at Narita Airport (but I’m sure all others), the security people are familiar with hand checking film, and do it readily - with a smile in my experience. ....

In Britain, at Gatwick, asking for hand inspection will bring you a brisk response - no way! With no smile at all.

ndwgolf
1-Nov-2017, 08:14
Here is what I am going to do;
I will load one film holder with one sheet of Ektar and one sheet of HP5+ and check that in with the remaining 11 empty film holders. I will carry the unexposed film in my hand carry and put that through the airport x ray machine. When I arrive in Japan I will load the film holders using either a changing bag or the hotel bathroom if its light safe. After exposing the film I will unload the film holders and put the exposed film in a empty film box and put that in my hand carry.

The two sheets of film that went in the hold will also go in the hold on the way home and I will report back how those guinea pig sheets of film turned out..................fogged or not??

Neil

xkaes
1-Nov-2017, 08:30
According to Kodak, the higher the ISO the more likely that fogging will occur. It also depends on the number of X-rays it is "exposed" to, and the strength of the X-rays varies, apparently quite a bit, from machine to machine, country to country, as well as transport service to transport service. Some shutterbugs just buy new film -- of whatever format -- when they arrive at their destination and have it processed there, but running tests is a great idea if that is an option and especially if it is a trip you frequently make.

Drew Wiley
1-Nov-2017, 09:59
I'd also be concerned about potential damage or theft to anything checked in.

tgtaylor
1-Nov-2017, 10:23
The Lowepro AW 350 Pro Runner is well within carry-on specs (I know because I fly with it) and will hold a Nikon F6 with 3 lens and a Toyo 45CF with several lens as well, including a laptop/tablet, dark cloth, passport, etc., and also holders if you don't go overboard on the lens. The Toyo folds with the normal attached and a 90mm Nikon f8 and Nikon 300M are small and easily pack with the lensboard attached. Lens for the 35mm are small and 3 well chosen lens is sufficient. I use a Gitzo GT 0540 series 0 CF tripod with Wimberley arca style BH with QR plates attached on the cameras when traveling/hiking with this set-up or Pentax 645NII. I have flown with the tripod attached to the pack (Cushioned wrap to protect the head from damage) but had to take it off the pack to fit in the overhead or under the seat. To satisfy airport security you may have to take the tripod in the checked luggage.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1140971-REG/lowepro_lp36874_pro_runner_bp_350.html/?c3api=3679%2Cbing%2C81226436051929%2C4584826049069805

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1034909-REG/gitzo_gt0542_mountaineer_series_0.html

Thomas

xkaes
1-Nov-2017, 10:35
I don't know how I could have forgot to mention this. At least a few companies, like SIMA, made LEAD-LINED pouches/bag of various sizes. Just get one or more of these. They are not expensive. The largest I have would probably hold a dozens typical 4x5 film holders. Security will probably ask to inspect the bag -- since they can't see through it -- and then you will get a hand inspection, no matter what country you are in!

Andy Eads
1-Nov-2017, 13:06
Here is what I am going to do;
I will load one film holder with one sheet of Ektar and one sheet of HP5+ and check that in with the remaining 11 empty film holders. I will carry the unexposed film in my hand carry and put that through the airport x ray machine. When I arrive in Japan I will load the film holders using either a changing bag or the hotel bathroom if its light safe. After exposing the film I will unload the film holders and put the exposed film in a empty film box and put that in my hand carry.

The two sheets of film that went in the hold will also go in the hold on the way home and I will report back how those guinea pig sheets of film turned out..................fogged or not??

Neil

You might enhance the value of the test by taping a coin to both sides of the checked film holder. If the x-rays are strong enough to fog, you will see the image of the coin on the processed film. You might even be able to tell the direction of the x-ray though it would be impossible to know how your bag was oriented. You might want to do the same test to a holder that will go through the carry-on x-ray machine. Please report your results!

Willie
1-Nov-2017, 14:56
In Britain, at Gatwick, asking for hand inspection will bring you a brisk response - no way! With no smile at all.

Even when you are using X-Ray film?

What is the reality with x-raying the X-ray film?

Two23
1-Nov-2017, 17:48
I've not had trouble in the past with ISO 100 to ISO 400 film go through CARRY ON xray several times. I would not put film into one of those lead bags as the operator will be tempted to simply dial up the power until the xray penetrates the bag. I put only cheap, replaceable camera gear into checked bags. Theft seems to be rampant (maybe not in Japan?)


Kent in SD

xkaes
1-Nov-2017, 17:57
If security CAN see through -- without a lead bag -- then you know your film has been exposed!

MikeMGB
1-Nov-2017, 18:27
I've not had trouble in the past with ISO 100 to ISO 400 film go through CARRY ON xray several times. I would not put film into one of those lead bags as the operator will be tempted to simply dial up the power until the xray penetrates the bag. I put only cheap, replaceable camera gear into checked bags. Theft seems to be rampant (maybe not in Japan?)


Kent in SD

Operators can't dial up the power, it's fixed. A lead bag may get your bag pushed to one side for a hand check though, if that happens one of two things is likely to occur, either it'll be swabbed for explosives (good), or it'll just be taken out of the lead bag and run through the xray machine again (potentially not good) - in the UK they just run it back through.

LabRat
1-Nov-2017, 19:08
Japan has many options for choices of, and buying film there, so you might do some research... Bring a changing bag, or find a closet there...

Bring boxed films and carry-on film... Most medium speed films will not fog in most carry-on scans, and if hand checking, sometimes they will and sometimes they won't depending on staffing and hour of boarding... Don't use the lead bags in checked luggage, as they will pull the bag to inspect the luggage, and these days, not everyone knows that a box of film or holders shouldn't be opened in the light (despite warning labeling all over it), or X-rayed to hell, so a lead bag can flag and possibly delay your luggage and subject it to additional X-rays until they figure it out it's film inside...

Don't sweat it too much, but arrive for your flight very early so they have plenty of time to do their official thing right...

Have a great trip!!!

Steve K

xkaes
2-Nov-2017, 04:31
In summary, you are on your own. I've never had problems in the US because I'm prepared. I always carry:

#1: My film in lead bags
#2: In carry-on luggage
#3: Request hand inspection
#4: A copy of the FAA RULES

Remember the Boy Scout motto: BE PREPARED

BrianShaw
2-Nov-2017, 06:57
I don't know how I could have forgot to mention this. At least a few companies, like SIMA, made LEAD-LINED pouches/bag of various sizes. Just get one or more of these. They are not expensive. The largest I have would probably hold a dozens typical 4x5 film holders. Security will probably ask to inspect the bag -- since they can't see through it -- and then you will get a hand inspection, no matter what country you are in!

The last time I used one of those, albeit quite a long time ago, the contents were emptied from the bag and they were all put on the belt for x-ray examination. Not quite the "hand inspection" that was hoped for. Haven't wasted the time with a lead bag ever since.

xkaes
2-Nov-2017, 08:28
Every time Security has wanted to examine anything of mine -- in MANY cities -- they have ALWAYS asked me first. It's those damn Search & Seizure laws, I guess. But I've always thought that life in L.A. was "different" in some way. Now I know!

BrianShaw
2-Nov-2017, 08:42
Every time Security has wanted to examine anything of mine -- in MANY cities -- they have ALWAYS asked me first. It's those damn Search & Seizure laws, I guess. But I've always thought that life in L.A. was "different" in some way. Now I know!

You may be reading too much into what wasn't written. Assumptions...

I've ALWAYS been asked too, in LA and MANY other cities, including OCONUS. The choice was put it on the belt or take it away (or let them dispose of it). I'm okay with that... when/if they honor the request to hand inspect I gladly accept but if not I've never had the film I choose to use harmed. Hand inspection is not a right, but a privilege that TSA/etc. has an option to honor or not. I'm okay with that.

Paul Cunningham
2-Nov-2017, 09:42
Even when you are using X-Ray film?

What is the reality with x-raying the X-ray film?

X-ray film is exposed by light, not x-rays. An x-ray machine uses x-rays to excite a light emitting substance which then exposes the film.

xkaes
2-Nov-2017, 11:23
Hand inspection is not a right, but a privilege that TSA/etc. has an option to honor or not. I'm okay with that.

You really need to get a copy of the hand inspection RULES from the FAA. Hand inspection is a RIGHT, not a privilege. I don't know where you got that idea! And, yes, it takes more time, but that is your choice.

ndwgolf
2-Nov-2017, 11:31
You really need to get a copy of the hand inspection RULES from the FAA. Hand inspection is a RIGHT, not a privilege. I don't know where you got that idea! And, yes, it takes more time, but that is your choice.
It might be your right in an American Airport.....................try pulling that line on the security in Kashmir, Jakarta, Moscow and Glasgow ........and see what happens :) :)

xkaes
2-Nov-2017, 12:09
FYI, the FAA refers to the US Federal Aviation Administration, as I have clearly stated in my earlier posts on this thread. Whatever happens in Burkina Faso, or any other odd location you want to drag up, is out of my bailiwick.

cowanw
2-Nov-2017, 12:11
You really need to get a copy of the hand inspection RULES from the FAA. Hand inspection is a RIGHT, not a privilege. I don't know where you got that idea! And, yes, it takes more time, but that is your choice.

My reading of FAA rules is that you may request a hand inspection, but there is no suggestion that the inspectors may not put the items through xray at their descretion (or refuse them). The FAA staff has the final say.
PS the rest of the world is not "an odd location".

ndwgolf
2-Nov-2017, 12:13
hahahahahahahah
FYI, the FAA refers to the US Federal Aviation Administration, as I have clearly stated in my earlier posts on this thread. Whatever happens in Burkina Faso, or any other odd location you want to drag up, is out of my bailiwick.

xkaes
2-Nov-2017, 12:27
I can appreciate why a Canadian might not understand the words "must allow" in US law, and why Burkina Faso is not an "odd place". I'm simply trying to inform people of their rights in the US when flying -- and how best to be prepared. Flying out of Antarctica? You're on your own!

BrianShaw
2-Nov-2017, 13:50
You really need to get a copy of the hand inspection RULES from the FAA. Hand inspection is a RIGHT, not a privilege. I don't know where you got that idea! And, yes, it takes more time, but that is your choice.

My info is from the DHS TSA site. “You may request/ask for hand inspection...” is very different from a policy that gives you or me he right to hand inspection.

I travel a lot too, so I also know the difference between rights, options, and the reality/variability of implementation.

What’s your source?

xkaes
2-Nov-2017, 13:57
You may request/ask for hand inspection...

...and they "must allow".

BrianShaw
2-Nov-2017, 14:03
...and they "must allow".

Okay... 14 CFR section 108.17e does say “if requested by passengers, their photographic equipment shall (the magic word in policy!) be inspected without exposure to an x-ray system”


Sorry I doubted you. But I still contend that there is a big difference between policy and implementation... and in my mind talking to the TSA isn’t worth the effort... for me, at least.

xkaes
2-Nov-2017, 14:27
And all this time, I thought the Canadians (i.e., cowanw) had a much better grasp of the English language than us heathens to the South. This MIGHT, not WILL, be destroying my preconceptions. Perhaps you both SHOULD, not SHALL, read the Ten Commandments -- THOUGH SHALL NOT KILL. It's not "Though SHOULD not kill". "SHALL" means NO OPTION. You "WILL", you "HAVE TO". I have an extra Black's Law Dictionary if that helps. OK, it's a little too big to bring to the airport, I MIGHT admit, but I WON'T -- because I don't HAVE to.

John Olsen
2-Nov-2017, 16:27
Why not just buy your film in Japan when you arrive? Or carry the film in the original box as carry-on? Then, just wipe down the hotel bathroom and load the first night. Then you can get it processed before you leave.

Possibly, also ask around to see if pro-labs there have film loading booths? I think you will enjoy your trip more if you do your loading there and don't have to hassle with TSA people.

BrianShaw
2-Nov-2017, 16:36
And all this time, I thought the Canadians (i.e., cowanw) had a much better grasp of the English language than us heathens to the South. This MIGHT, not WILL, be destroying my preconceptions. Perhaps you both SHOULD, not SHALL, read the Ten Commandments -- THOUGH SHALL NOT KILL. It's not "Though SHOULD not kill". "SHALL" means NO OPTION. You "WILL", you "HAVE TO". I have an extra Black's Law Dictionary if that helps. OK, it's a little too big to bring to the airport, I MIGHT admit, but I WON'T -- because I don't HAVE to.

Perhaps you should read the parts about forgiveness, acceptance, and gratuitousness...

And in most, if not all, parts of the English speaking world it’s “Thou”.

You’re right about the distinction between “should” and “shall” but often it takes legal action to enforce one or the other, not a discussion with a minimum wage baggage checker, or his/her supervisor. That citation of the Code of Federal Regulations, or whatever your is, would be more useful in a civil liberties lawsuit than at an airport screening station. And you can trust me on that... a major part of my career has been based in writing and applying government policy. Intent does not always translate to compliant action.

LabRat
2-Nov-2017, 16:36
...and they "must allow".

Don't count on it... I have had to go through security on "redeye" flights, and asked for hand inspection, but the rushed staff said the inspectors were gone for the night, so it had to go through the scanner, or be put below (with a stronger X-ray blast), so I ended up through the scanner...

Also have heard of checkers not knowing that a box of film must be opened in the dark... :-0

Steve K

xkaes
2-Nov-2017, 17:09
Sorry about your trouble/problems. I've taken REDEYES from Denver (MIDNIGHT) to JFK several times and never had a problem. Maybe you should contact the TSA to wake up their drunken checkers at EX-LAX. It might/could (NOT WILL) lead to a disaster.

Fred L
2-Nov-2017, 17:13
A friend was covering fashion in Milano many moons ago, and this was when we carried hundreds of rolls of film in bags for inspection. Exposed film was in labeled manilla envelopes.

So it's the crack of dawn at Malpensa Airport and my friend asks for a hand inspection. Of hundreds of rolls of film. So they go back and forth over the hand inspection until basically, iirc, heavily armed security says film goes through scanner or no flight to Paris. He got on the flight.

I've had my 320TXP sheet film go through security scanners with no ill effect that I could see. I'll ask for a hand inspection if I can but won't put up a fight if they say no. Last time I was hand inspected, they swabbed the Ziplock bag which promptly set off alarms. Guess the bag had a lighter or similar item in it previously.

Mds88
2-Nov-2017, 17:24
I have asked for hand inspections of 120 and 4x5 sheet film (both exposed and unexposed) in Las Vegas, Ottawa, Toronto and Calgary on several occasions. I had the film boxes and rolls in clear zip lock bags. I requested a hand inspection and without exception my request was granted. The TSSA agents used the "sniffer" machine after swiping each box and roll.

LabRat
2-Nov-2017, 20:07
Sorry about your trouble/problems. I've taken REDEYES from Denver (MIDNIGHT) to JFK several times and never had a problem. Maybe you should contact the TSA to wake up their drunken checkers at EX-LAX. It might/could (NOT WILL) lead to a disaster.

Thanks for making any input from anyone into their own personal problems, and that you are above it all...

BTW, this entire forum is for discussion, not a personal platform for your questionable statements and attitude... Take some responsibility that what you post is to be helpful to all, and not just self serving, ego driven, defensive tirades, and that you will bash someone if any opinion or experience does not reflect your world???

Have you noticed here that no one flames each other, and the discussion is civil??? You don't seem to care about anyone else but yourself...

Steve K

Jim Andrada
2-Nov-2017, 23:10
I had film badly fogged going through the hand carry scanners in Auckland but that was a long time ago. Never seen any problem with modern equipment.

Outgoing inspection in Japan will not be a problem - I've flown in and out of Narita/Haneda over 300 times and it's the only place I've had them apologize for asking me to put stuff in the inspection basket. Hong Kong on the other hand...

Just be nice and they'll be just fine. Why not get your film in Tokyo, though? Or get a small changing bag and carry everything in your carry on - it's how I usually do it. Let's see now, last trip to Japan I had a 4 x 5 Linhof Technika, a Mamiya 645, a Canon 5D, a Canon C-100 video cam, a Minox B, and a Zeiss Super Ikonta 120 folder. As well as a couple of dozen rolls of 120 and 3 Grafmatic holders along with a couple of regular 4 x 5 holders. Took quite a while to figure it out but I got it all in a Temba carry on bag. Gitzo tripod went in checked luggage. Granted the Temba weighed around 50 pounds but nobody gave me a hassle about it.

Willie
3-Nov-2017, 01:57
X-ray film is exposed by light, not x-rays. An x-ray machine uses x-rays to excite a light emitting substance which then exposes the film.

Thank you for the clarification. Shows how much I don't know. Maybe I will have to try a box of the X-Ray film one of these days.

xkaes
3-Nov-2017, 05:03
BTW, this entire forum is for discussion, not a personal platform for your questionable statements and attitude...

I don't know how you can possibly take my SUGGESTION that people actually READ the FAA RULES instead of making incorrect assumptions about them, as anything but THAT -- a SUGGESTION.

BrianShaw
3-Nov-2017, 07:17
PM sent

John Olsen
3-Nov-2017, 08:27
X-ray film is exposed by light, not x-rays. An x-ray machine uses x-rays to excite a light emitting substance which then exposes the film.

X-ray film is sensitive to x rays. Modern x-rays machines may do as your quote says, however, back in the good 'ol days we used x rays to do the job. The film needed to be loaded in the dark, and kept in a light-tight holder for the exposure to x rays. There was no light-excitation layer involved. The sensitivity curve for each film was based on the voltage of the x rays, no visible light involved. (But a converter layer is a clever idea.)

LabRat
3-Nov-2017, 09:34
Another big problem during air travel is dehydration, as the film is open (even in darkness) to excessive drying in the bone dry atmosphere, where if uneven, the thickness/hardness of the emulsion will develop unevenly later... Film flatness can be distorted, leaving a wave or bump resulting in OOF areas on the image... Better to keep the film in a sealed box that resists humidity change, rather than a holder...

I have seen some people's film that they thought were damaged by X-rays, but seeing different density areas on the roll film was a clue to areas that were subject to more dry exposure (like the frames around the camera gate, and gaps inside a film cassette where the roll could be partially loose in part of the core and tight on the other part etc) during long flights...

Sealing in the rH beforehand helps, and if excessively dried in flight, B/W film does well with a 5 to 10 min pre-soak before the developer, and using dilute solutions that develop the film more slowly have a chance to "fluff" the emulsion thickness and develop more evenly...

Steve K

Jim Andrada
4-Nov-2017, 00:51
From what I've found online the RH in the 787 is just about on par with Tucson or Las Vegas. And definitely cooler!!!