Glue to re-seat dry wood joinery in LF frame?

[Patrick13]

I've started an Ansco 8x10 fixer and the fold down rail joins are pulling apart.

The wood and channels are old, dry, and straight so the fitment is great.

What glue is recommended and strong enough for LF frames to clamp the parts back together and restore rigidity?

TIA

[Jac@stafford.net]

Do you have wood clamps?

[mdarnton]

I bought my AA from an auction where the only photo was of it sitting at the top of the basement steps, folded. No one else was stupid enough to bid on it. When I got it, it was in pretty good condition, except nearly every glue joint had come apart, probably from living in the damp basement. I spent a day and put it back together, and it's been happy since.

The original would have been hide glue--basically glue-quality Jello melted in water, very thickly. Elmer's or yellow glue will not stick to hide glue with any degree of reliably, so those are out. Liquid hide glue is NOT something to use--just believe me. Other glues are too messy and/or overkill for the work, in my opinion. On the other hand, hot hide is very easy to use, and your joints won't even need to be cleaned.

If necessary, you can assemble something like that flat on a piece of waxed paper on a table. Get the glue in the joint, squeeze it tight by hand wipe off what squirts out, then lay it flat, make sure it's pushed up tight and square, and walk away. The most important part of a job like this is not getting anything twisted, and laying it flat on a flat surface to dry assures that. Clamps, carelessly used, can pull anything out of square and plane. Check with a file card that it's put together square, and Bob's your uncle, as they say.

If you can find a violin or guitar shop, they can be talked into giving you a couple of thimbles-full of glue crystals; no need to buy a whole pound for a one-time job. If you really are going to do it, send me your address, and I'll send you some in an envelope. I gather it looks like raw heroin or something, so there shouldn't be a problem in the mail. :-)

[Peter De Smidt]

Michael really knows what he's talking about. I've seen some of the wooden items he works on. Some are irreplaceable and priceless. Think Stradivarius.....

[Patrick13]

Sounds like good advice.
It's the model without the front tilts, just the shifts. I got lucky and this one has 3 backs, 8x10 + 5x7 + 4x5, and a bit unlucky because only the 8x10 ground glass is complete. But glass is easy to grind...
I'll wager that I can source some glue crystals from a local luthier and not have to worry about ATF raiding my mailbox :rolleyes:

PS: I do have an appropriate clamp, square, and ridiculously flat and stable granite countertop to set up the curing properly.

Thanks!

[BrianShaw]

Also check woodworking supply or piano repairs shops for hide glue.

P.S. THAT's what heroine looks like? I had no idea!!!!!

[Milton Tierney]

I have done a lot of woodworking over the years. My first choice for difficult projects is 5min epoxy. If possible you can reinforce with stainless steel screws.

[Milton Tierney]

Oh , don't forget to use clamps.

[Rich14]

I've started an Ansco 8x10 fixer and the fold down rail joins are pulling apart.

The wood and channels are old, dry, and straight so the fitment is great.

What glue is recommended and strong enough for LF frames to clamp the parts back together and restore rigidity?

TIA

Follow the advice to use hot hide glue. In all probability that's what's already in there. New hot hide glue remelts and "reactivates" old, dried hide glue. If the parts fit well, you will not have to use clamps. Yes, hide glue is basically jello. Very bad-smelling jello. Those of us who use it grow to like its odor. If you complain, I'll tell you to use fish glue!

Do NOT, repeat, do NOT use epoxy. If you want an explanation, I'll explain, but just take my word at this point. Do NOT try to use any screws.

While hot hide glue is the best and actually the simplest material to use, it does require a little learning curve. You do not want to use it for the first time on your project. You need to do a trial first.

The glue comes either finely ground or as "pearls." It does not look like heroin. (That's heroin, not heroine). It's amber and coarse like semolina flour. Heroin is white and fine. Don't ask me how I know this.

You pour a small quantity into a little cup or a dish and pour in enough water to cover it by at least an inch. Wait overnight, the glue will absorb all the water it can and swell in the process. Pour off all the excess water and place the cup in a crock pot that has enough water in it to just allow the cup to float. You need to use a thermometer to monitor the glue. 140-145 degrees is good. Don't let it get above 150-155 (you won't like the smell!). Woodworkers have glue pots for this purpose. A crock pot works just as well and costs $15 at Walmart. Glue pots cost $150. My $15 crockpot has lasted 30 years.

At 140 degrees the glue will turn into a slightly runny consistency. It should run off a stick slowly but freely without forming globs. Use a small stiff brush or a long matchstick-like piece of wood as an applicator and spread a little on two small pieces of wood. Rub them slowly together, back and forth until they're hard to keep moving. Then let them alone until the joint cools to room temperature. They'll stay bonded forever.

You'll learn that you have to work quickly, but don't hurry. Any glue that drips can be nicely peeled away when it partially cools to a rubbery state. Use a razor blade to slice it at the joint first that you're peeling it away from, or you'll pull the glue out of the joint! It will come off the wood like rubber cement, leaving no trace. Dried, it completely cleans from hands and clothing with warm water.

If you want a demonstration of its tenacity, its adhesion qualities, spread some on the surface of a piece of glass. As it dries it will shrink. And it will ultimately pull shards of glass from the surface of the glass as it contracts. In fact, this ability is used in certain "art" projects to give a distinctive look of such glass surfaces. The effect is completely random and unpredictable.

Be careful with dried splashes of hide glue. It is as hard as glass and the edges can be just as sharp.

Remember, some horse gave his all for your glue project!

Have fun.

Ask questions.

Rich

[LabRat]

A local Rockler woodworking supply shop has what you need...

Steve K

[Robert Brazile]

"A crock pot works just as well and costs $15 at Walmart"

A baby bottle warmer is quite cheap and works very well to warm the glue and keep it at a reasonable temperature, and a baby food jar (saved in the shop for various uses from when my now-grown kids weren't) is the perfect size for fitting in the bottle warmer and holding a working amount of hide glue. FWIW.

Robert

[Patrick13]

Fortunately I have a sous vide cooking thingy that'll keep things at a nice 150deg without having to get all DIY on a heating solution.
I like the glass jar idea, seems ideal and wide mouthed for easy access to the goop.
Glue is here, as soon as my real work project is delivered I'll have time to experiment a bit with using the glue on scrap and then go for the real frame.

[Patrick13]

Starting the process this week: hide glue as recommended. Thanks for all the advice, I don't do this often and like to know what I'm getting into and not ruin an antique in ignorance.
I'm not going to do a tear-down and full restore of the wood frame, it's earned its scars, but I may polish up the brass later.

This is the majority of the damage, thankfully not cracked and its just joints being old and dry:
172322

[Greg]

Had an Improved Empire State view that looked to be in almost like new condition, but many of the joints were loose. Probably either from storage at extremely varying temperatures, or from a batch of bad glue when the camera was assembled. Hunch is the latter. Used Clear Gorilla glue, one joint at a time with serious clamping for 24 hours of curing. Wood has to be moist when the glue applied, very, I mean very little glue needed, and serious clamping a must. Was careful, and not a bit of the glue seeped from any of the seams. Was 100% satisfied with the results.

[Patrick13]

I made way too much glue :mad: I'll drop some cling wrap over it and toss it in the refrigerator.

Squared to the frame and against flex, glued and clamped, and now we wait.

172332

[Patrick13]

Ending the thread on an up note - a day later the joins are rock solid and I can't even tell at the seams that it was ever falling apart.
It's always great to learn a new skill and have it pay off right away.

[morecfm]

This is a great thread concerning hide glue as I need to secure a few joints of an Agfa Ansco 8x10 also. Is there a way the existing glue in the joint to re-secure the joint by heating or by moistening and heating?

[mdarnton]

That's theoretically possible but it usually won't work. If the joint is truely good and the original wasn't enough to do the job, there won't be extra glue to activate.

[morecfm]

That's theoretically possible but it usually won't work. If the joint is truely good and the original wasn't enough to do the job, there won't be extra glue to activate.

Thanks for the info. Well I'm off to order some hide glue granules. What preparation do I need to do on the loose joints to get a solid joint? I kind of assume that additional heated hide glue will "activate" the glue that's already there to create a solid joint.

[mdarnton]

It's always good to clean out the old joint with boiling water and something like a q-tip, if you can get to it, but if you don't do that it will probably still hold well.

[Greg Y]

The joint needs to be cleaned of old glue & be open. You can't wick hide glue into a closed joint

[morecfm]

It's always good to clean out the old joint with boiling water and something like a q-tip, if you can get to it, but if you don't do that it will probably still hold well.


The joint needs to be cleaned of old glue & be open. You can't wick hide glue into a closed joint

It appears all the glue joints on the rear base are loose so all previously glued surfaces will be accessible for cleaning.
I'll be disassembling, cleaning, gluing and reassembling anyway. No need to take shortcuts here.

[pepeguitarra]

I used hide glue for more than 30 years making guitars. It is the best glue for guitar, it does not interfere with the sound production. However, it is subject to change in the weather. In hot times, or if you leave your guitar in the trunk of your car in the summer it will melt. Luthiers like me love this glue because it allow us to disassembly a guitar and repair it and put it back again easily. IT requires to be melted at high temperature (usually in a copper container -- see photo) and used immediately (10 secs or so.) It needs strong clamping, and the surfaces of the wood have to be sanded to bare wood. Surfaces need to be perfectly matching. This glue has existed since the Roman Empire. I would recommend using Gorilla glue. But without seeing it, I will not be able to recommend anything else.


https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7641/16691848787_833db1429b_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/rr167k)Voigtlander NOKTON 35mm f1.2 ASPH II (https://flic.kr/p/rr167k) by Palenquero Photography (https://www.flickr.com/photos/palenquero/), on Flickr

[el french]

Why would you recommend Gorilla glue when the OP reported in post #16 that hide glue worked perfectly?

[pepeguitarra]

Again, take my advice with a grain of salt, without seeing the piece, I take my recommendation back. Hide glue needs to be used properly, and it takes some time and practice to learn that. The risk of a bad use will be seen later, when the joint will get loose again. See my comments on post 23. Gorilla or the new technology glues are fool proof and or have been studied for use by non-experts.

Let me rephrase my answer: This post/advice will be for future readers who run with the same problem. Hide glue has been the best for centuries because there were no new technologies like now. I said, it is preferred for luthiers because it dries so solid that it does not interfere with the sound conductivity, like some new glues would. That being said, hide glue is subject to the effect of temperature and humidity (fungus, etc.). It melts with high temperatures, etc. That is exactly why it came loose in the first place. It will work fine, until the same conditions of temperature or humidity affect the joint. If the joint were made with Gorilla glue for example 100 years ago, it would have not failed. That is why I am saying. Future readers may explore the benefit of the new technologies too. Simple, free advice.

[Patrick13]

My repair on the 8x10 rails is holding strong, but I don't leave wood of any kind that hasn't been impregnated with marine epoxy sitting in steamy bathrooms and car trunks so YMMV :)
In any case, part of my interest in fixing an older camera instead of just buying a new one is historical and learning about the glue and using it in practice is its own reward as far as I'm concerned.

Glad that this post is helping other people with updates and new options to pick and choose from in their own projects!

[pepeguitarra]

Thanks for your understanding Patrick. I live in south O.C. and visit HB frequently. I keep track of relative humidity in O.C., most of the time is ideal for instrument making: 50%. However, with the Santa Ana winds, it can go down to 20%. In those days, the wood cracks sometimes due to the stress caused by low relative humidity. Recently, after so much rain, I have measured 80% RH, my dehumidifier is working overtime in my shop. Hide glue is beautiful, and when I referred to learning how to use it, I referred to using it in instrument making, when the joint is not supposed to show. If you see a guitar well made, you are not supposed to distinguish where the glue line is. It may not be so demanding when gluing a camera that clearly shows the join line. I agree that to preserve the authenticity of a piece, the original material is always better. That said, I like to contribute for future generations, I have learned a lot by reading posts made 15 years ago in this forum.

[pchaplo]

Mine was different.

[Drew Wiley]

Well, Gorilla Glue is certainly not foolproof. It needs to be reasonably fresh. Once air gets into the bottle it can go bad quickly. That's because it's moisture-activated. Thus under low humidity conditions the wood needs to be wetted a bit. Tropical woods need scrubbing prior to gluing to remove natural oils so the glue can bond to the wood fiber itself. Oversanding can actually smear oils and resins like a glaze over the surface, esp if you are using the wrong kind of abrasive, which is generally what one encounters. Then there are different kinds of urethane glue. Gorilla glue tends to spread laterally, while the imitation brands tend to mushroom. Either way you need tight clamping.

[mdarnton]

I hope you washed out the old glue well. My experience is that a surface that's soaked with hide glue (probably that was the original glue) will not stick well if glued with Titebond.

[Dan O'Farrell]

Lee Valley carries hide glue
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=20002&cat=1,110,42965,20002

I have no connection with the store, just a satisfied customer.