Book publishing services

[QT Luong]

In this article on LL (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/100-books.shtml), MR has
brought to attention an outsourcing company (www.my100books.com) that can arrange to have photography books printed for a very reasonable cost. They streamline the publishing process and have it done in China.
Some quotes I was given:
<ul>
<li> 9x12 inch 100 pages 1,000 copies $11/copy.
<li>9X12 inch 100 pages 3,000 copies $5.00/copy.
<li> 9X12 inch 200 pages 3,000 copies $7.00/copy.
<li> 9X12 inch 300 pages 3,000 copies $8.75/copy.
</ul>
This makes it quite tempting to try and self-publish my
book on the national parks (http://www.terragalleria.com/book.html), especially after reading
about problems with publishers such as
the CRC v. Weinstein suit (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/about/erics_commentary.html).

Has anyone heard of competing companies ?

[Donald Brewster]

Look at http://www.lulu.com for a printing on demand service.

Mike Johnston has written about it favorably in photo.net for (finally) publishing his photo books.

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

My100books is a higher quality printer than LULU and the other printers on demand. I asked from a sample from LULU and the photograph reproduction was terrible, it looked like a low res scan printed on a cheap ink jet. My100books otoh will do full reproductions with screens, Brooks had a blog about them a while back, maybe you should contact him and ask him him what was his experience if any with them.

In any case even at $8.75 per copy, you are still talking about 26,000 bucks.....not a drop in the bucket IMO... :)

[Wilbur Wong]

I have no experience in the area of book publishing but am at least aware of printing processes from many years of being in the periphery of lithography. I am very impressed by the quality of print coming out of Hong Kong. I often look at the printing source when I see a very well executed book and often my impression of a Hong Kong printer is correct. I have heard that over there, they are able to use some inks that are not nearly as acceptable in the United States - presumably over environmental issues.

[QT Luong]

There are a lot of printing services geared towards the self-publisher, but most of them are not for photo books, unlike my100books. I don't think there is any on-demand service for photo books.
my100books is not on-demand. There are companies that will produce very short runs photo books (print run
as low as 1 copy), but the price is too high for reselling as a retail book. You could use them as portfolios. Royce Bair on another list mentioned Asuka Book as a great source. A book of 20 sheets
(40 pages) is $140 for the first one, $110 afterwards.

I'll certainly wait for completion of MR's project to see what he has to say. Who is Brooks ?

[Paul Butzi]

I have friends who have self published books. Not photography books, mind you, but the usual text based kind.

The big killer is that once you arrange the press run and cutting and binding and all that, you end up with a room full of books.

And breaking in to the distribution channels is just a killer. It's an enormous hurdle to get the books into mainstream places like Barnes and Noble, or Borders, or any of the other chain bookstores.

Having watched their struggles to get their (very good) books sold after getting them printed, I don't know that I'd go out and order up a large number of books unless I was pretty confident that I had the distribution problem solved.

One way to solve that problem, of course, would be to sell them direct off your website.

If you go ahead and do that, please make the ordering process easy, because for sure I would buy one and I get frustrated ordering stuff off the web all the darn time.

All that said, one of my photographer friends just had one of his photo projects done up as a very small run book. It's very impressive, and I'll try to remember tonite when I see him to ask which service he used.

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

Who is Brooks ?

Brooks Jensen, the editor of Lenswork magazine. I dont know if he used them or not, but he talked about them as a good source for self publishing. Given that the guy knows what he is talking about (at least on publishing :-) ) I think my100books is the best bet.

[Nick_3536]

http://www.lumierepress.com/pages/about.html#

Isn't that guy the ultimate in self publishing? Too extreme?

[steve simmons]

One of the mistakes many people make who self publish is in the marketingf the book. This is at leat 50% of the effort required for a book to b successful. You will need a chain of people to get the book out there, get it known, and wanted. Otherwise you end up with a garage full of books and a big printing bill.

IMHO you need to develop a marketing plan before you agree on a printing contract. You need to find magazines to review the book, possibly show samples. arrange for exhibits, etc. I once got a letter from someone who told me he had a book coming out and wanted to know if I would promote it in the magazine. I ask for a copy and he refused stating he could not afford to send me one!!!!!

We have run a couple of articles in the last year or so about having books published and the potential pitfalls.

steve simmons

[Michael A.Smith]

Those prices do not seem so good to me. Paula Chamlee and I recently formed BackStreetBooks, a division of our publishing company, Lodima Press. We had a book printed in Hong Kong. Excellent quality. Reasonable cost. Less than the quote you received. We did not get a quote for very small runs.

Unless a printer specializes in photography books, you are really taking your chances. You need to see press proofs of every page or you need to go stand on press. Nothing less, ever, if you want fine results.

Distribution--the bane of the small indepndent publisher and self-publishers. To solve the problem, Paula and I, along with another publisher, have formed a not-for-profit corporation, the central purpose of which is to distribute independently published fine photography books. It will not be up and running for a number of months yet (and we are looking for an executive director), but at some point we expect this organization to be a significant force in the field.

[paul stimac]

Michael,

Who did you use in Hong Kong?

[Ed Richards]

I have a copy of the book the Rangefinder Forum folks did on LuLu and it is not bad. Lulu also has a full color photo book to raise money for the tsunami victims that is quite good. As we say in the computer world - gigo - I think you have to work hard with proof books to get good quality from a printer like Lulu but at only about $10 a proof copy, that is cheaper than running prints at home.

[David F. Stein]

QT, I would certainly stay in touch with Mike Smith as he has a track record in publishing and promoting books. Many years ago, Ralph Gibson also did a wonderful job with the Lustrum books. More importantly, with the number and caliber of images you have, I would suggest finding a reputable agent to represent you, including your book concept. I would not give up, or overlook, having a book published by a major publisher of fine art books. Best of luck.

[Antonio Corcuera]

hello QT
I work in the editorial industry in Spain for the last 5 years, editing and printing books for Harper Collins, Rizzoli, Taschen, Konemann and other publishing houses. If you see quality photo and art books in the US, many of them are either printed in Hong Kong, Singapore, Italy or Spain. Hong Kong has been printing art books at least since the early 90's so no one should be surprised about their quality. Eyes are now pointing towards mainland China and Eastern Europe for even lower prices (probably will take some years to fine tune on consistent quality).
Even supposing your quotes are hard bound w/dj on heavy “couché” paper (150gr weight at least), they are high. If they include shipping and customs, they're not that bad. I'd say you can get them for 2/3 of the price here in Spain, but then you'll have to add delivery and import tax. If you want, I can get you some quotes from the presses we work with.
It is important you understand the highest cost by far is paper, so keeping page count low and a higher print run is a good idea (of course, every one wants a coffee table book!).The paging they have given you in the quote is a bit strange. For optimum economy of plates, paging is usually in multiples of 8, 12 or 16, depending on your output size. A 100 page book normally means they'll have to make an extra plate for 4 pages only. Common optimum paging counts are 96 (too few I think), 136, 192, 216, 240.
Another very important point mentioned before by Ed Richards is the proofing. Being your own little baby, I'd be a bit frightened to send color proofs over to India or China and just sit back waiting for the book. If my100books gives you full confidence and guarantee it’s OK, but I'd personally try to be standing by the press. After that, it's all about promotion as everyone has mentioned.
Best, Antonio

[Michael A.Smith]

Oceanic Graphic Printing (OGP).

If you, or anyone else contacts them, please mention that the reference came from me. Thank you.

Unless you know what you are doing and how to evaluate a press proof and know what it needs to make it better you should hire someone to communicate with the printer, or better yet, stand on press. A book is an expensive undertaking. No printer, even the very best (and we use the very best--in Belgium--for our books) will get it right without tweaking on press (although our printer in Belgium comes very, very close).

Last month Paula was on press for the prinitng of our Lodima Press books by Brett Weston, Nick Nixon, Carl Chiarenza, and George Tice. George Tice went over to be on press, too, and he commented that he had never seen anyone inspect a press sheet as carefully as Paula did. (George Tice has been on press in seven or eight countries for over a dozen books.) He called our printer, "A genius," and wants to print his next book with him. He thought that, by far, our book of his work was the finest he had ever seen of all of his books and said that from now on it will be very hard to look at a duotone again. Many of the differences are subtle, however, and if one were to look only at a lesser quality book without comparing one might think it okay.

In that context, the contract with OGP was for up to three press proofs. The first press proof from Oceanic was not bad at all--most everyone would have approved it. I ended up having them do five press proofs--each one of the entire book. They told me I had pushed them farther than anyone ever had before. The book, "Crash, Burn, Love: Demolition Derby" by Bill Lowenburg, although not of the quality of our Lodima Press books, is something I am right proud of. The book has excellent printing. And because it was printed in Hong Kong, not Belgium, it sells for only $29.95 when purchased directly.

[Erik Sherman]

Well, I actually feel like I can contribute something useful for a change. (I've written five commercially published books.)

1) Prices vs. copies. I once interviewed an expert in self publishing who said that print on demand doesn't work if you're actually looking to be a publisher, because the costs are too high. Mind you, she was talking about maybe $5 a copy versus a $20 cover price. The problem is that you need to make a certain amount to actually pay for doing business (forget a profit) given the way mass book distribution works.

2) It seems to me that within the last year or two PDN ran an article on people who had self-published photo books. If memory serves, you may have to wait for a long time to pay off even the cost of production.

3) Steve Simmons wrote that marketing is 50% of success. I'd disagree - it's 90% or more. If you don't know how to market, then you aren't even going to get into the places the book might sell given worthwhile content.

4) There is a lot more to producing a good book than the printing costs. You will need to hire someone who knows production and design to get something to the printer that will come out well. You will probably want at least some written content, which means maybe an author and definitely an editor. I'm a professional writer with wide credits, and *I* need that second eye.

5) Michael Smith mentioned getting a lower quote from Hong Kong. That would make sense because you weren't dealing with a middle man looking to make a profit, which gets added on top. Other questions to ask: does the printing include a dust jacket? Production and layout? Shipping from Hong Kong? Heavy weight paper and coating? If you want to go this route, make sure you know the total landed cost of having the books show up at your door.

6) If you are going to self publish, I'd strongly suggest reading some books on the subject to find out what you are getting yourself into. Some names that come to mind are Dan Poynter as well as Tom and Marilyn Ross.

The idea of looking for an agent is a good one. I'd throw in checking if there might be a backer for the project - maybe the national park service or a grant. If you can get money to cover or at least subsidize the actual production costs, selling becomes much easier.

[Michael A.Smith]

" If you can get money to cover or at least subsidize the actual production costs, selling becomes much easier."

Actually selling doesn't become any easier. It is just that the pressure is off.

There are many things to ask when you get a quote.

For anyone interested, Paula and I consult with people doing self-published books. We're not inexpensive, but we have saved people a great deal of money and have met a number of self-publishers who said, "If only I had talked to you first." Additionally, I am at present working on a series of articles about how to make a photography book. They will cover everything from conception and sequencing (the most important things when making a book), through distribution--with everything in between.

[Antonio Corcuera]

QT, I had not seen your website - impressive is the least. Your photos are fantastic, your project shows passion and dedication and I must second lensworthy's suggestion to try and get published by a major editorial who will get their slice but distribute and print accordingly.

[John Flavell]

My desire is to print the "book" myself and I've seen a couple of postings in the past about this. I'd rather produce an extreme short run out of my printer using an appropriate archival paper and have the book hand-bound.

I'm not all interested in a medium to large run book from China, although I've seen a couple and thought they were "acceptable". Is there anyone still looking into paper possibilites for not only self publishing, but self printing?

[julian_4860]

I saw a guy who produced very limited artists books simply by getting the images printed by frontier on fuji chrystal, having laid up each page in a DTP app, and then got them hand bound with a hard cover. All shot 5x4. Looked great. I wouldn't worry too much about archivability as mass produced books aren't archival, but I'd be more concerned about ink rubbing off if you planned on inkjet output

[QT Luong]

John, Royce Bair that I cited previously has this page about printing your book yourself:
http://www.inkjetart.com/news/book/index.html
Eventually he thought the time, labor and materials to print these books were
overwhelming and used Asuka Books.

[QT Luong]

Mike Johnston has written about it favorably in photo.net for (finally) publishing his photo books

They are book about photography, not books of photography.

Actually selling doesn't become any easier. It is just that the pressure is off.

I think he meant selling the proposal to a publisher.

[matthew blais]

Hi QT...
I just remembered that Christopher Burkett (www.christopherburkett.com) printed his books in LA at Dual Graphics.
http://www.dualgraphics.com/

As I was up there visiting his studio recently, I do remember him saying they (printers) worked very well for him. Each original cibachrome is apparently scanned for color separations, and upon the various press checks he did, he had each and every one of his book images (originals) there to compare with. Tedious, meticulous and the books are very nice. Having seen a nice presentation of about thirty of his prints, and seeing the book, the closeness is, I think, as good as it can get.

I haven't a clue what he paid, but he did self-publish.
I'm sure he would be helpful with information if you contacted him.
email: info@christopherburkett.com

Another option can't hurt.

Best of luck and look forward to your book!

[Michael J. Kravit]

For a lower end product you may want to look at www.mypublisher.com. They print small and medioum sized "photo album" type books that I have seen for sale in galleries. pretty much a canned format, but an oiption none the less.

[Michael A.Smith]

Dual Graphics is an excellent printer--the best in the USA. I used them for three of the Lodima Press books, and they are heartily recommended. But they are very expensive. When we started printing with Salto in Belgium we found the quality was even better (600-line screen quadtone) and the price was cheaper because the dollar was high vs. the Belgian franc (I think it was the franc). Now that the Euro is high relative to the dollar, the printing is expensive, though we continue to use Salto because the quality is unbeatable.

If you are trying to save money, printing in the Far East is the only way to go, especially for color work. Besides Hong Kong, there are excellent printers in Singapore, Mainland China, and Korea. Get prices and samples from a number of printers.