How to handle "Free on Loan" threads, etc.

[Steven Tribe]

This is a supporting thread for a listing in the sterile For Sale thread!

Basically a resurrection of a thread from 2011.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?75729-Free-On-Loan-Brass-lenses&highlight=scoville+lens

Getting a loan system up and working is a problem - I would like to avoid over-loading the PM system.

I'll use the Weekend to sort through my lenses and post a list in the For Sale section. I suppose that anyone else who is interested getting some of their lenses used could start a parallel thread as only the OP can make postings in this first thread.

Listing lenses here would be in conflict with the month probationary period!

And here is a link to the new "Loan" which may or may not work!

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?140302-Free-on-loan-brass-lenses

[pierre506]

Steven, I l lost lots of interesting to see the For sale/ For trade section since the new rules there began.

通过我的 VIE-AL10 上的 Tapatalk发言

[Oren Grad]

Steven - duly noted. We'll discuss this and figure out what our policy is so that people won't have to guess about it.

[Steven Tribe]

I am not proceding with this until I hear that it is OK to have a linked thread with the For Sale section, when it is a question of free loan.

I realise that it would, perhaps, place an extra monitoring burdon on the mods!

Looking at the last time I (we) did this, there was zero interest in things like aplanat and landscape meniscus lenses - but more in the soft lens area.

[Oren Grad]

Haven't forgotten, Steven - it's under active discussion, except that each round is taking a little while because of other things on our plates. Stay tuned.

[sanking]

I agree with Pierre. In fact, I have quit using this forum to sell LF equipment. In the past I often offered the equipment on this forum for less than I could expect on ebay, but the restrictive rules that now apply to buying and selling turn me off. I just sold a lot of equipment on ebay that I did not even consider offering here because of the asinine (my opinion) restrictions of the forum.

Give you one current example. There is a guy with a current WTB of a tri-color camera. In the past I could have replied with some useful information, now that is not possible.

On the whole I am dismayed by the adoption of restrictive rules that began some five or six years ago, to both the FS/WTB section and other parts of the forum.

Oren, that was before your time so please note that I don't blame you for the mess.

Sandy



Haven't forgotten, Steven - it's under active discussion, except that each round is taking a little while because of other things on our plates. Stay tuned.

[Oren Grad]

It looks like this is going to function as a Feedback thread, so I'm going to move it to that subforum for now. Others who have any thoughts on this are welcome to add them

I do bear some responsibility for the current shape of the rules as I participated in the decision-making that resulted in the current set. But critical remarks that are substantive, focused on the policy and not framed as an attack on the people involved are OK; we won't take them personally.

[Ralph Barker]

. . .

Give you one current example. There is a guy with a current WTB of a tri-color camera. In the past I could have replied with some useful information, now that is not possible.

. . .

Sandy

Of course you can reply - just that it is now via PM or e-mail, so the reply doesn't act to bump the thread in those searches that are activity sensitive.

[sepiareverb]

Of course you can reply - just that it is now via PM or e-mail, so the reply doesn't act to bump the thread in those searches that are activity sensitive.

Nor to give insight to others reading the thread. A frustrating problem for us users.

I get that a popular item might float to the top of the list more often than someone selling some old Bakelite trays might like, but the value to the general knowledge base that has been legislated away is missed. Even if the classified threads are not part of the archive, the reading and digesting of pertinent facts and valuable opinions from those we have come to trust here will work their way into the archive. I am of the opinion that the classifieds should serve more than the single purpose of a sale, that of discussion of a particular item.

[sanking]

Of course you can reply - just that it is now via PM or e-mail, so the reply doesn't act to bump the thread in those searches that are activity sensitive.

I meant replying in the thread for others to see. One of the redeeming features of the FS/WTB threads in the past was that they became an extension in many cases of the knowledge base of the forum. Yes, some people abused the Bump, and yes some replied with inappropriate comments, but on the whole the old system seems a lot better to me than what is currently in place.

Sandy

[Steven Tribe]

I accepted, without comment, the change in the F/S and Wanted thread. The moderator's were unhappy about the need for frequent interventions and listers that were p****d off with any additional information that might reduce the commercial value of item(s).

Like others here, I feel that a good facility for information spreading has been lost. I do occasionally send PMs to listers and the contents do reach the advert in most cases.

I cannot see why this thread has been moved to feedback, as my original idea was a use of the existing system, not a reversal to an older system. If this is the way the mods want to go, then OK.

But please change the title of the thread. No one will guess that the present content of this thread "The sterile/boring F/S thread" as it stands now.

[Robert Brazile]

Just wanted to add my sense of it, while feedback is being considered: removing the behaviors that sometimes caused complaints and gaming of the system seems to me to have reduced the overall utility of the forum. I completely understand why the action was taken; if I were a moderator, I'd probably have been tempted to do it as well, if only to quiet the louder complainers. But it feels a bit like we destroyed the village to save it, to use an unfortunate metaphor (not enough caffeine yet this morning to think of a better one).

I don't know the right answer -- I don't wish the burden on the moderators to increase. But I think the old FS free for all, such as it was, was a much more vibrant and useful part of the community than it might have got credit for. I don't tend to sell, really only do shopping and learning, so the old way was better for me personally. And I hold no brief for the folks who show up once every couple of weeks with 50 things they've gleaned from garage sales or whatever. But it seems to me that there is a small number of folks who are somewhat cranky by nature and complain loudly about the things they don't like. That's OK, it's their right, I suppose, in a community-run forum like this one. But it seems unfortunate to let things be determined by the loudest and crankiest of the group, simply by dint of sheer continued annoyance of the volunteer moderators, which is what it feels like happened here.

I guess I could wish that we returned to the old set up, with the loud warning at the top saying, essentially, "You participate here understanding that people will comment, and others will play bumping games. Don't bother complaining about anything short of fraud. Most policing via the Buyer-Seller Advisory forum. Have fun." but perhaps that's naive.

Robert

[mdarnton]

But it seems unfortunate to let things be determined by the loudest and crankiest of the group, simply by dint of sheer continued annoyance of the volunteer moderators, which is what it feels like happened here.

I guess I could wish that we returned to the old set up, with the loud warning at the top saying, essentially, "You participate here understanding that people will comment, and others will play bumping games. Don't bother complaining about anything short of fraud. Most policing via the Buyer-Seller Advisory forum. Have fun." but perhaps that's naive.

Robert

I completely agree with most of what's been said about the buy/sell listings, but especially this, above.

[sanking]

Another issue is the mere optics of the sales area. Historically buying and selling was seen as an extension of community. Now open the forum and look at community. Over half of the Community section is filled with the FS, WTB and Advisories, and those area are themselves filled with ugly red text screaming at you. Is that really how the LF forum should advertise itself?

Sandy

[goamules]

When I heard about potential changes a year ago, I gave recommendations about how to improve the For Sale section. As most of us did. What we ended up with was quite different.

From 2007 to the change I bought and sold dozens of lenses and cameras here, sometimes a couple a month. For years. In the last year myself, and a lot of those "ambitious hobbiests" have moved on. I haven't looked at or sold more than 1-2 items this year, here. Trade is good for the hobby, and it was photographers buying and selling to other photographers.

The main problem, from a users perspective were the true dealers, that were selling dozens of items a week. Some very cheap accessories like trays, boards, shutter cables. Some more expensive items from the dealers Inventory (capital "I"). But those filtered the "good stuff" down off the list very quickly. There were several dealers that NEVER had a post in anything except the For Sale section. How is that "a community?" It's not, it's a Market. Even today, right NOW, I just looked at the For Sale section, and it's the same. Several sellers are there.....only....to....sell. No (or scant "tell me about this so I can sell it) other posts outside For Sale. Many other dealers just became members to swoop in and buy any good deal. You'll also see their post count at or near 0. Just here to deal.

And some were finding creative ways to Bump their items to the top every day or two. The big problem wasn't hobbiests that traded and sold. It was dealers that had an inventory of thousands of items, looking for an outlet to sell. That wasn't really addressed, but was swept under the rug. And I don't mind someone that wheels and deals quite a bit, to work on their collection. I do mind someone selling 47 small accessories, digital stuff, and the like for less than $30/piece. Because, again, it pushes the important items off the page, to be missed.

I think some of the new rules tried to address the above.

What I would do now, on retrospect, is make 3 sections for sale:
1. LF Lenses for sale
2. LF Cameras for sale
3. Accessories / film / Small Format
That way, people that wanted "the good stuff", can concentrate where it is. Like it used to be. Drop most of the rules and restrictions.

[Oren Grad]

I cannot see why this thread has been moved to feedback, as my original idea was a use of the existing system, not a reversal to an older system.

For the reason stated when I moved it. The thread departed from your intended purpose virtually from the start. Changing the title is a good idea, and I've done that - hope it will clear up any ambiguity.

Whether it's a good idea to invite comment threads parallel to a posting in one of the more restricted subforums is not clear. If not, how best to handle loan offers? We're thinking about that.

[jp]

I like Garrett's ideas. Equipment changing hands makes LF more educational for everyone.

I wasn't much bothered by the comments on FS/WTB posts. If mods are worried about good items being pushed off the page, make the page longer; probably a software default setting.

[Michael Graves]

Personally, I found comments useful, except of course, the blatantly rude ones. When I, or someone offering something I want, is out of line on price, that's good to know. If somebody posts a 10" Commercial Ektar and says it covers 8x10, I appreciate the person who points out that it does not, indeed have a sufficiently large image circle for that format.

[Vaughn]

I believe one of the reasons for not allowing discussions on sale items was that the For Sale section is not archived -- so any great tidbits of information on a sale item are eventually lost...and the preservation of such knowledge is the driving force of the forum.

[consummate_fritterer]

I seldom sell or buy on forums anymore. I'll NEVER loan pricey things to others because of very bad experiences. People SELDOM return what they borrow.

[consummate_fritterer]

We've all seen the little coin dishes at the counter by the cash registers. I've spoken to many cashiers who tell me the same people ALWAYS TAKE... and the same folks ALWAYS GIVE.

I quit giving because most of the people who take... are NOT the folks who NEED it. Most of those who TAKE are usually fairly well-off.

This connects with the OP only in the TRUST department. Not everyone is untrustworthy but too many are.

[jp]

I seldom sell or buy on forums anymore. I'll NEVER loan pricey things to others because of very bad experiences. People SELDOM return what they borrow.

sorta drifting back on topic here!

I am greatly indebted to people loaning me camera gear at other times in my life. In the late 80's an older family friend lent me some Nikon glass he probably hadn't used since his service in Vietnam. It enabled me to shoot sports and nature photos. I could only afford one lens, so this was very helpful. I eventually returned the glass and repurchased one of the favorites for myself after college; the 55 micro AIS...

There are a handful of people on here I've met in person and would be glad to lend somewhat valuable things to. Strangers, I'm not so sure. Partly because I don't have time to deal with shipping, keeping track of where things are, etc... Same reasons I don't often sell gear. I wouldn't discourage other people from lending. CF, you appear new here; take some time to get to know people.

[Bill Burk]

So Sandy, you've got a tri-color camera kicking around? Just curious. No way I could afford one now. But I know how to use one and would enjoy balancing the colors

[ic-racer]

Certainly there are valuable and expensive items I'd not loan. However, the current state of selling on ebay shifts the benefit ratio far from any benefit to me for selling anything less than $500. So for all that sub $500 equipment it might actually be more worthwhile to give or loan it away.

[Tin Can]

A very real problem is many seem unable to pack delicate things carefully

I have received a fair share of heavily damaged cameras and lenses

If you have ever seen how I pack, you know how to avoid most damage

But boxes get crushed and lost with all shipping methods

Insurance is also lousy

I have been saving my frozen meds boxes, which come with dry ice on rush in heavy styrofoam, very good for lenses

no it's not covid vacs

[Tin Can]

Henny Youngman "Take my wife ... please" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henny_Youngman)