Bought my first LF camera - Sinar Norma

[prestonedavis]

First time poster here. This forum's info has been helpful in the info gathering process that led me to order this Sinar Norma from ebay: http://r.ebay.com/dkWVNe

I'm completely new to large format so I'm excited to get started. My question for you all is what inspection process should I go through when the camera arrives? The seller has a 30-day return policy so I want to make sure everything is in reasonable shape before that time period is up. What should I realistically expect from an old camera such as this one?

I will primarily be shooting landscapes with the occasional portraits. I'm coming over from the MF world where my weapon of choice is the Pentax 67.

Thanks in advance for any and all advice.

[DG 3313]

Welcome to the forum. The new rig looks like a great start in LF. Do you have a darkroom?

I would make sure everything tightens down and loosens up as it should. Check the camera for light leaks with a small flashlight in a dark place. Test the shutter at all speeds especially around one second. If it sounds slow at 1 sec it may need to get CLA or a new spring.

Then I'd use it. If you need any empty boxes for transporting / storing exposed film....shoot me a PM and I will mail them to you.

[prestonedavis]

Thanks for the welcome and the offer to send boxes. What sort of boxes do you mean? Like regular cardboard boxes? Something else?

I don't have a darkroom.

I'll do the light leak and shutter check for sure.

[Pete Oakley]

Check the bellows for light leaks.

[prestonedavis]

Check the bellows for light leaks.

Will do! Thanks.

[chassis]

Congratulations! Let's see some images!

[Jerry Bodine]

Welcome to the forum. Looks like a very nice clean rig. If the shutter needs service I'd recommend sending it to Flutot's in S. Cal; Carol is very good and a pleasure to deal with. Although she sometimes has a backlog of work and may have longer turnaround times. IIRC she has noted on her website that parts for Compur shutters are becoming hard to find, but if it only needs cleaning there should be no problem.

http://www.flutotscamerarepair.com/

The camera appears to have a non-Sinar fresnel, rather than the easily detachable 4x5 Sinar version (which is a plastic one and is easily scratched by a loupe). So it may be a glass version as a replacement, but you should check it with a loupe to make sure its focal length performs properly with your lens.

Often the bubble levels run dry, and replacements can be a challenge; but a search of this forum will turn up methods to repair/refill yourself. Although, all my Sinar Normas, bought new in the '70s, still have full levels. MOST Sinar parts are interchangeable with other models. Here's one of their useful websites:
http://www.kenleegallery.com/pdf/Sinar_system_katalog.pdf

Enjoy your camera,
Jerry

[Bob Salomon]

Welcome to the forum. Looks like a very nice clean rig. If the shutter needs service I'd recommend sending it to Flutot's in S. Cal; Carol is very good and a pleasure to deal with. Although she sometimes has a backlog of work and may have longer turnaround times. IIRC she has noted on her website that parts for Compur shutters are becoming hard to find, but if it only needs cleaning there should be no problem.

http://www.flutotscamerarepair.com/

The camera appears to have a non-Sinar fresnel, rather than the easily detachable 4x5 Sinar version (which is a plastic one and is easily scratched by a loupe). So it may be a glass version as a replacement, but you should check it with a loupe to make sure its focal length performs properly with your lens.

Often the bubble levels run dry, and replacements can be a challenge; but a search of this forum will turn up methods to repair/refill yourself. Although, all my Sinar Normas, bought new in the '70s, still have full levels. MOST Sinar parts are interchangeable with other models. Here's one of their useful websites:
http://www.kenleegallery.com/pdf/Sinar_system_katalog.pdf

Enjoy your camera,
Jerry
Jerry,
The Beattie Intensiscreen was plastic, there are no glass fresnel screens for view cameras. Both the Beattie and the Linhof Super Screen were made by Fresnel Optics, who owned Beattie, in Rochester, NY.

[Jerry Bodine]

Jerry,
The Beattie Intensiscreen was plastic, there are no glass fresnel screens for view cameras. Both the Beattie and the Linhof Super Screen were made by Fresnel Optics, who owned Beattie, in Rochester, NY.

Thanks, Bob. That's good to know.

[prestonedavis]

...rather than the easily detachable 4x5 Sinar version

When you say easily detachable, are you suggesting the replacement screen may not be detachable? Is there a reason why I would want a detachable screen?

Thanks for the info regarding shutter servicing. I will definitely keep that in mind should it be necessary.

[Bob Salomon]

When you say easily detachable, are you suggesting the replacement screen may not be detachable? Is there a reason why I would want a detachable screen?

Thanks for the info regarding shutter servicing. I will definitely keep that in mind should it be necessary.
On the Sinar the Fresnel screen is mounted to clips that make it easily removable. A Beattie Intenscreen is a replacement for both the ground glass and the Fresnel screen so it's smooth surface must be positioned at the same place as the smooth side of the original ground glass. So it does not mount the same way that a Sinar Fresnel screen would have mounted to the camera.

[Pali K]

Welcome and enjoy one of my favorite cameras to use. i started LF with a Sinar Norma and many cameras later, it is still my favorite. Looks like you got a great setup and I am sure you'll love it.

Pali

[Jerry Bodine]

On the Sinar the Fresnel screen is mounted to clips that make it easily removable. A Beattie Intenscreen is a replacement for both the ground glass and the Fresnel screen so it's smooth surface must be positioned at the same place as the smooth side of the original ground glass. So it does not mount the same way that a Sinar Fresnel screen would have mounted to the camera.

I missed that the camera has a Beattie screen installed. However, it seems from the attached pix that the fresnel is a separate piece from the groundglass, and both are secured by the screwed-on clips. May be an “optional delusion” :o though. It’s apparent that the spring clips for attaching a Sinar fresnel are present though and if the as-bought configuration is unacceptable for whatever unlikely reason it can be replaced by a Sinar fresnel. Here’s one source:

http://igorcamera.com/sinar_film_cameras.htm $35 / Exc. cond. OR $79 / Mint cond.

[prestonedavis]

Welcome and enjoy one of my favorite cameras to use. i started LF with a Sinar Norma and many cameras later, it is still my favorite. Looks like you got a great setup and I am sure you'll love it.

Pali

Thanks. During my search, you flickr photos are some of the one's that pushed me closer to the Norma.

[prestonedavis]

I missed that the camera has a Beattie screen installed. However, it seems from the attached pix that the fresnel is a separate piece from the groundglass, and both are secured by the screwed-on clips. May be an “optional delusion” :o though. It’s apparent that the spring clips for attaching a Sinar fresnel are present though and if the as-bought configuration is unacceptable for whatever unlikely reason it can be replaced by a Sinar fresnel. Here’s one source:

http://igorcamera.com/sinar_film_cameras.htm $35 / Exc. cond. OR $79 / Mint cond.

So why would someone replace the original screen with the Beattie? Brighter?

[Bob Salomon]

I missed that the camera has a Beattie screen installed. However, it seems from the attached pix that the fresnel is a separate piece from the groundglass, and both are secured by the screwed-on clips. May be an “optional delusion” :o though. It’s apparent that the spring clips for attaching a Sinar fresnel are present though and if the as-bought configuration is unacceptable for whatever unlikely reason it can be replaced by a Sinar fresnel. Here’s one source:
No, to use a Fresnel he would have to replace the Intensiscreen with a ground glass. Then he can add a Fresnel.
http://igorcamera.com/sinar_film_cameras.htm $35 / Exc. cond. OR $79 / Mint cond.

[Jerry Bodine]

Probably. I've read nothing but praise for the Beattie, but I've never found the Sinar fresnel to be inadequate for what I do. So, I can't really offer any comparison of the two. Since the Beattie is plastic and is not inexpensive, if it gets scratched to the point of needing replacement you may need some deeper pockets.

Bob, right again. I need to proof my comments more closely.

[Pere Casals]

First time poster here. This forum's info has been helpful in the info gathering process that led me to order this Sinar Norma from ebay: http://r.ebay.com/dkWVNe

I'm completely new to large format so I'm excited to get started. My question for you all is what inspection process should I go through when the camera arrives? The seller has a 30-day return policy so I want to make sure everything is in reasonable shape before that time period is up. What should I realistically expect from an old camera such as this one?

I will primarily be shooting landscapes with the occasional portraits. I'm coming over from the MF world where my weapon of choice is the Pentax 67.

Thanks in advance for any and all advice.

The Pentax 67 is not a joke, but a very powerful weapon, that takumar 105...

The Norma is also my 45 camera, and I've two 210 symmar convertibles, I acquired the 2nd one for an stereo DIY project.

By now you may be aware that the Norma is not a common camera. First ever all metal view camera, very able for both studio and field, and used by people like Ansel Adams. Exposed in some museums... but still a powerful/elegant tool...

As you have a fresnel installed just check focus is accurate, if fresnel is in the inside part then the flange to film distance has to be corrected, if the fresnel is in the outside then no correction was needed at the time.

So place a long rule on the floor and take a shot, the photograph has to have focused the same number you saw focused in the ground glass...

If fresnel is in the inside and you remove it then film to flnge distance has to be corrected.


About the 210 symmar, this is a very good lens, single coated, so it can have slightly more flare in some conditions(sun in the framming). Use a shutter tester and check all speeds, this is very important, even a new LF shutter may have +/-30% tolerance, so an old one has to be checked. Shutter tester cost range from $15 (photocell for the sound card type) to $100.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/exposure-large-format.htm

The Symmar 370 conversion is pretty usable, if someone says the counter you can tell him that Ansel made the "Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico" with a converted configuration of a Cooke, a lens well worse than the Symmar...

http://www.kenrockwell.com/schneider/150.htm

Still using the 370 conversion has drawbacks, you have to stop to /22 to get sharpness in the corners, and it has focus shift, ideal focusing changes when stoping the lens, so you have to check focus again after stopping, this not happens with the whole lens (210mm).

Still the 370mmm conversion is a very nice portrait lens, as you have a very bright fresnel it will help you focusing with lens stopped...

Have fun !!!

Regards

[Bob Salomon]

Probably. I've read nothing but praise for the Beattie, but I've never found the Sinar fresnel to be inadequate for what I do. So, I can't really offer any comparison of the two. Since the Beattie is plastic and is not inexpensive, if it gets scratched to the point of needing replacement you may need some deeper pockets.

Bob, right again. I need to proof my comments more closely.

All view camera Fresnel screens are plastic and subject to scratching unless you have one that offers a cover glass like the Linhof Super Screen did. However, the Super Screen and other one piece, combination focusing screen/Fresnel screens could warp. A ground glass cannot and if an add on Fresnel screen did warp it would not effect the focus plane.

[prestonedavis]

The Pentax 67 is not a joke, but a very powerful weapon, that takumar 105...

The Norma is also my 45 camera, and I've two 210 symmar convertibles, I acquired the 2nd one for an stereo DIY project.

By now you may be aware that the Norma is not a common camera. First ever all metal view camera, very able for both studio and field, and used by people like Ansel Adams. Exposed in some museums... but still a powerful/elegant tool...

As you have a fresnel installed just check focus is accurate, if fresnel is in the inside part then the flange to film distance has to be corrected, if the fresnel is in the outside then no correction was needed at the time.

So place a long rule on the floor and take a shot, the photograph has to have focused the same number you saw focused in the ground glass...

If fresnel is in the inside and you remove it then film to flnge distance has to be corrected.


About the 210 symmar, this is a very good lens, single coated, so it can have slightly more flare in some conditions(sun in the framming). Use a shutter tester and check all speeds, this is very important, even a new LF shutter may have +/-30% tolerance, so an old one has to be checked. Shutter tester cost range from $15 (photocell for the sound card type) to $100.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/exposure-large-format.htm

The Symmar 370 conversion is pretty usable, if someone says the counter you can tell him that Ansel made the "Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico" with a converted configuration of a Cooke, a lens well worse than the Symmar...

http://www.kenrockwell.com/schneider/150.htm

Still using the 370 conversion has drawbacks, you have to stop to /22 to get sharpness in the corners, and it has focus shift, ideal focusing changes when stoping the lens, so you have to check focus again after stopping, this not happens with the whole lens (210mm).

Still the 370mmm conversion is a very nice portrait lens, as you have a very bright fresnel it will help you focusing with lens stopped...

Have fun !!!

Regards

I wish I knew enough about LF and LF lenses to say I understand what you're saying about the 370, but I don't. Are in some way referring to the lens that comes with the set up I just bought? Please enlighten me a bit more about what I'm getting as well as this conversion you speak of.

And yes, that Takumar 105 is a god-lens.

[Greg]

The Sinar Norma will make you proud. Have used Norma's since the early 1980s and continue to just love them. Actually prefer them over P's. Advice is to get the original IB or copy of it. Also a copy of their Norma era product catalogue to understand the accessories made for them. Somewhere on the WEB is a write-up on servicing them and keeping them "in tune". If you work on your camera, just don't over tighten or force anything. Lastly I recommend not buying Sinar lens board rip-offs... they are junk. Used drilled OEM boards are easy to find. I've even come across over the past few years and bought 3 un-drilled OEM Norma lens boards for reasonable prices, they're out there....
Good Luck

[Pere Casals]

I wish I knew enough about LF and LF lenses to say I understand what you're saying about the 370, but I don't. Are in some way referring to the lens that comes with the set up I just bought? Please enlighten me a bit more about what I'm getting as well as this conversion you speak of.

And yes, that Takumar 105 is a god-lens.

Your symmar says in the front 210mm 5.6 in white, but also says 370mm f/12 in green.
210mm 5.6 is the normal configuration. If you unscreew the front cell of the lens you have a 370mm f/12. Diafragm has two scales, one in white and the other in green, one for each configuration.

Convertiible lenses have fromt and/or rear cell corrected independently, so you can split the lens in 2 halves, and each half can be used alone, with less performance than what the whole lens has,
but still usable.

regards

[prestonedavis]

Your symmar says in the front 210mm 5.6 in white, but also says 370mm f/12 in green.
210mm 5.6 is the normal configuration. If you unscreew the front cell of the lens you have a 370mm f/12. Diafragm has two scales, one in white and the other in green, one for each configuration.

Convertiible lenses have fromt and/or rear cell corrected independently, so you can split the lens in 2 halves, and each half can be used alone, with less performance than what the whole lens has,
but still usable.

regards

Ah, thanks for the explanation. I had no idea such lenses existed.

[neil poulsen]

I sure like my Norma system. It's really a precision instrument. Given that it came with a lens, you got an excellent price I think.

If you encounter any difficulty raising or lowering the rear or front frames, the risers (vertical rails), might need some adjustment. If the camera has been at all bent, bumped, etc., the risersl can easily get out of alignment and need adjustment. I had this problem, and Dave at Advance Camera (Beaverton Ore.) did an excellent job straightening them.

Sinar made some great accessories for the Norma; it's fun perusing EBay for Sinar equipment.

[Alan Gales]

You got an excellent price for just the lens and camera. The Beattie screen is an added bonus. I had a Beattie on a Hasselblad 500cm and it made a world of difference. Much, much brighter than the original screen. Of course that was a 500cm but a Beattie still should be brighter on a Norma than the original ground glass.

Enjoy, you got a great deal on a wonderful camera!

[Don Dudenbostel]

I purchased a new 4x5 Norma system in 1969. I think this was the last year they were made. Anyway I used it heavily as a commercial photographer until digital became the standard and still use it on occasion. I couldn't even guess how many thousands of sheets of film Ive put through it and it looks almost new and functions as new.

I located my receipt from when I purchased it and found the original manual, Sinar lapel pin and container of grease to lube the rack and pinioned. I paid just over $360 new for the body and standard tapered bellows. I can't remember the price on the other items but added all the components to make it an expert set.

Wonderful set, enjoy and make great images.

[Bernice Loui]

Far more than just a Sinar Norma, it is a Sinar system.

What makes the Sinar special is the ability of this camera system to be expanded, updated, combined, configured in ways few other view camera systems can equal. Sinar is more of a image making problem solver than just a view camera.

The Norma is compact, lightweight, made with Swiss precision and remarkable durability. Usable in the field and equally suited in a studio or on location set up. There are very few negatives and many advantages to a Norma.

If the bellows is worn with light leaks, any current Sinar bellows will fit direct, Horseman L series bellows will also fit. Do use genuine Sinar lens boards or aftermarket lens boards of proven high quality. Consider adding a Sinar shutter if there is an interest with using barrel or lenses with no shutter. It solves this problem very nicely.

As for the Fresnel, preference is the original Sinar ground glass with no fresnel. Fresnel or similar "brighter" add ons can result in focusing problems with wide angle lenses. They also limit viewing angle which IMO, is not a good thing. It takes time, much practice and growing into seeing the world via ground glass upside down.


Bernice

[Steven Tribe]

The Norma is a wonderful machine! Apart from damaged spirit levels (easily replaced by cheap non-original ones), the only common problem is corrosion (best described as powdery/fluffy) on the cast rear green standard. This doesn't influence the strength and a wire brush will do wonders.

There appears to be quite a big difference in price levels of Sinar sets in the EU compared with North America. The decommisioning of analogue studio sets meant that they have been low priced during the past 15 years. Things are changing a little now, but as recently as two years ago, I bought a 4x5 with standard lenses and the sinar/copal shutter for 200 usd. The advantages of the later is that a whole range of lenses without shutters can be used.

The lens that came with the set was fairly standard for early Normas and is just about as good as later lenses with lots of fancy names! There is a serial number on the front standard (I think?) which will give the date of production, although some cameras may be from a different period as the system is so modular in its construction.

[Bruce Barlow]

I found an 8x10 Norma on consignment years ago with a ton of accessories at a good price. I love it - and you will if you appreciate fine, fine engineering and craftsmanship. If you don't, it's never too late to learn, and Norma will be a good teacher.

Not to mention that it's really fun to use.

I'm envious of your Beattie. I have a fresnel that I loved to use on it. It's somewhere...

Enjoy!!!

[prestonedavis]

You folks have me really excited about this new photography journey I'm taking on. All this input is very much appreciated!

[Pere Casals]

You folks have me really excited this new photography journey I'm taking on. All this input is very appreciated!

If you still have any doubt, see here how AA handles one, it is a 5x7 with 4x5 reducing back, I guess...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-ZCEXWdIMg&t=13s

[Jerry Bodine]

...MOST Sinar parts are interchangeable with other models. Here's one of their useful websites:
http://www.kenleegallery.com/pdf/Sinar_system_katalog.pdf...

Note: This link focuses on Sinar models from F-series and on, showing many parts that will work properly on the Norma (and some that will not).

Regarding interchangeable parts, some thoughts come to mind for your future needs:

For landscape work, you'll likely want to use filters, but I don't see the Norma filter holder in your purchase. You may choose to use the Norma design which employs a solid hex rod 3-piece set (three different rod lengths) which fit into the clip on the side of the front standard. Several accessories were available that could be slipped onto this rod - in front of the lens - for various purposes. A swing-out (180*) filter holder ring for a polarizer filter (105mm Coarse thread) on its front side + a retainer ring on the rear side for Series 9 glass filters. A gel filter holder was available to screw into the front side. A bellows lens hood could also be rigged up by attaching a standard square bellows to the hex rod using clips designed for that purpose. The challenges nowadays are that finding (a) the filter holder ring (b) the gel filter holder (c) the original clips for the bellows hood (which never gripped the bellows securely anyway). You’ll notice in the link above that some of these accessories are available, but I can tell you they’ll not work on the Norma. Here’s why:

For reasons I’ve never understood, for F-series and on, the hex rod attachment to the front standard was relocated from the side of the front standard to a place near the bottom of the front standard, so the “clocking” of the hex receptacle had to be rotated by an appropriate amount to keep the accessories centered on the lens axis. What this all means to you is that the current accessories (filter holder ring, bellows clips) cannot work on the Norma. Many Norma users have resorted to DIY configurations or simply use the Lee Filter system (http://www.leefilters.com/index.php/camera/system). I noted another solution was to use a current Multipurpose Standard in front of the lens, thus allowing the current bellows holder clips and polarizing filter to be used on the hex rods you bought. But I haven't been able to verify that the current pola holder still incorporates the Series 9 function. SINAR now offers a system of lens adapter rings for filters – shown in the above Sinar link.

Finally, it’s good to pay attention to Bob Salomon’s comments; he’s very knowledgeable.

[prestonedavis]

Many Norma users have resorted to DIY configurations or simply use the Lee Filter system (http://www.leefilters.com/index.php/camera/system).

I have already invested in the Lee system for my Pentax 67. It sounds like you're saying I'll be able to use it (with proper adapters) on the Norma. Are their any limitations to using the Lee filters?

I also use this 105mm Kaesemann Polarizer (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1141461-REG/b_w_1081906_105mm_mc_kaesemann_htc.html) Will there be any issue using this? I'm assuming this will depend on the lenses I use it with?

[Jerry Bodine]

Sorry, Preston. I've never actually seen the Sinar adapters, so I'm in the dark as much as you on that one. I've always used the original Norma system and have never needed the Lee system either. I wore out the Sinar Pola and replaced it with a Tiffen which screws into my swing-out holder but also happens to fit my largest lenses' front element threads. If your Kaesemann Pola has 105mm coarse thread, it’s larger than your 210 Symmar 5.6 front element thread (M 58 x .75) so obviously you'd need an adapter unless the Lee system can accommodate that connection. You’d have to try it. I’m not aware of any limitations with the Lee system since I’ve never used it – although others have. Your Kaesemann is a circular type that is only needed for cameras that have an optical viewing system; view cameras generally only need a linear type, but IIRC circulars will work properly for you.

[prestonedavis]

Sorry, Preston. I've never actually seen the Sinar adapters, so I'm in the dark as much as you on that one. I've always used the original Norma system and have never needed the Lee system either. I wore out the Sinar Pola and replaced it with a Tiffen which screws into my swing-out holder but also happens to fit my largest lenses' front element threads. If your Kaesemann Pola has 105mm coarse thread, it’s larger than your 210 Symmar 5.6 front element thread (M 58 x .75) so obviously you'd need an adapter unless the Lee system can accommodate that connection. You’d have to try it. I’m not aware of any limitations with the Lee system since I’ve never used it – although others have. Your Kaesemann is a circular type that is only needed for cameras that have an optical viewing system; view cameras generally only need a linear type, but IIRC circulars will work properly for you.

Sounds like I have bit of research to do then as I'm hoping to use my existing filter kit.

Thanks, Jerry.

[prestonedavis]

I have another question regarding my Norma and lenses/lens boards. I've searched the forum but the answer isn't perfectly clear to me. Probably due to me being a novice in this arena.

When buying lens boards, what attributes should I be looking for to ensure they fit my front standard? I read somewhere on here about a Sinar>Technika adapter. Is this an adapter that will stay on the camera and allow me to fit technika brand(?) lens boards to it? For shooting out in the field, which approach is more practical? Can someone point me in the direction of a photo of a) an example of what a sinar lens board looks like and b) a photo of the sinar adapter.

Hopefully this makes sense. Feel free to set me on the correct path if what I'm saying isn't quite right.

[Bob Salomon]

I have another question regarding my Norma and lenses/lens boards. I've searched the forum but the answer isn't perfectly clear to me. Probably due to me being a novice in this arena.

When buying lens boards, what attributes should I be looking for to ensure they fit my front standard? I read somewhere on here about a Sinar>Technika adapter. Is this an adapter that will stay on the camera and allow me to fit technika brand(?) lens boards to it? For shooting out in the field, which approach is more practical? Can someone point me in the direction of a photo of a) an example of what a sinar lens board looks like and b) a photo of the sinar adapter.

Hopefully this makes sense. Feel free to set me on the correct path if what I'm saying isn't quite right.

It looks just like all Sinar boards do except it has the Technical 45 board adapter on the face of the board.
You can look at a Technical adapter board for any camera system and the Technical adapter part will all be the same.

[Jerry Bodine]

Preston - Bob beat me to it, but rather than edit my response I’ll just post it as written. If I were to buy a lens board for my Norma I would insist on one that has the name SINAR molded into the corner of its front surface. The link to your *bay purchase shows such a board. Any OEM board will work on your Norma; they are 140mm (5.5”) square and made from aluminum. The original Norma boards are colored with the greenish-gray paint on the front surface; later models were usually flat black on the front, but any SINAR board will work on any Sinar model. Sinar offers an adapter board (441.91) that accepts the much smaller Technika boards, and adapter boards made by other fabricators sometimes appear on this forum. One thing I’ve always wondered about, though, is that most/all Technika boards locate the lens below their geometric center – for some reason not apparent to me; so I wonder if these adapters account for this offset and position the lens axis at the center of the Sinar board. Bob Salomon is our resident expert on this forum for all things Linhof and can certainly clarify all this; if he doesn’t respond in this thread I’d send him a personal message (PM) asking him to do so for the benefit of everyone here. [Since you’re new here, if you’re not sure how to send him a PM, just click on his name in one of his posts in this thread, then select his profile page where you’ll see a link to PM him]. So, yes, the adapter stays on the camera and allows any lens mounted on a Technika board to be put on it. Obviously, field work with lenses mounted on the smaller Technika boards will be less bulky than mounted on Sinar boards. I don’t have a photo of an adapter board, but I can say that it is designed to secure the Technika board to the adapter using the same concept (sliding clip) that attaches the Sinar board to the camera.


I have another question regarding my Norma and lenses/lens boards. I've searched the forum but the answer isn't perfectly clear to me. Probably due to me being a novice in this arena.

When buying lens boards, what attributes should I be looking for to ensure they fit my front standard? I read somewhere on here about a Sinar>Technika adapter. Is this an adapter that will stay on the camera and allow me to fit technika brand(?) lens boards to it? For shooting out in the field, which approach is more practical? Can someone point me in the direction of a photo of a) an example of what a sinar lens board looks like and b) a photo of the sinar adapter.

Hopefully this makes sense. Feel free to set me on the correct path if what I'm saying isn't quite right.

[Bob Salomon]

Preston - Bob beat me to it, but rather than edit my response I’ll just post it as written. If I were to buy a lens board for my Norma I would insist on one that has the name SINAR molded into the corner of its front surface. The link to your *bay purchase shows such a board. Any OEM board will work on your Norma; they are 140mm (5.5”) square and made from aluminum. The original Norma boards are colored with the greenish-gray paint on the front surface; later models were usually flat black on the front, but any SINAR board will work on any Sinar model. Sinar offers an adapter board (441.91) that accepts the much smaller Technika boards, and adapter boards made by other fabricators sometimes appear on this forum. One thing I’ve always wondered about, though, is that most/all Technika boards locate the lens below their geometric center – for some reason not apparent to me; so I wonder if these adapters account for this offset and position the lens axis at the center of the Sinar board. Bob Salomon is our resident expert on this forum for all things Linhof and can certainly clarify all this; if he doesn’t respond in this thread I’d send him a personal message (PM) asking him to do so for the benefit of everyone here. [Since you’re new here, if you’re not sure how to send him a PM, just click on his name in one of his posts in this thread, then select his profile page where you’ll see a link to PM him]. So, yes, the adapter stays on the camera and allows any lens mounted on a Technika board to be put on it. Obviously, field work with lenses mounted on the smaller Technika boards will be less bulky than mounted on Sinar boards. I don’t have a photo of an adapter board, but I can say that it is designed to secure the Technika board to the adapter using the same concept (sliding clip) that attaches the Sinar board to the camera.

Linhof places the hole on their boards so when the front and rear standards are at their standard position then the optical center of the lens is centered on the center of the ground glass. I have given this answer numerous times on this forum.

Linhof offers two different Technical 45 adapter boards for their Karan cameras. One for wide angle lenses or lenses on recessed boards and one for everything else. I don't remember if Sinar did also, if not then shorter lenses may not focus to infinity on the Sinar adapter board.

[prestonedavis]

Would this be an example of one of the sinar adapters?
166314

[Jerry Bodine]

Would this be an example of one of the sinar adapters?
166314

The concept for attaching the Linhof board to the Sinar board is as I would expect, but I'd want to know whether it correctly positions the optical center of the lens at the geometric center of the square Sinar board. I don't know what the magnitude of Linhof's offset is but IIRC it's below the center of the Linhof board. This photo shows an obvious offset that seems to raise the lens by some magnitude. Sinar's adapter can be seen on p. 4-8 in the pdf link in my post #7; an offset is not visible, but I'd trust Sinar to get it right. If you found that a wide angle lens cannot be focused, then a bag bellows (455.36 p.3-9 in the pdf) would solve that for focal lengths down to about 75mm.

[Jerry Bodine]

Since Sinar was taken over by Leica in late 2013 (reported here (https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-news/2013/11/leica-takes-over-sinar/)), one can only speculate what may happen with prices of Sinar gear. It's good to know this last press release confirms Sinar retains control of marketing, product management, support, development and production of its gear.

[Bob Salomon]

Since Sinar was taken over by Leica in late 2013 (reported here (https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-news/2013/11/leica-takes-over-sinar/)), one can only speculate what may happen with prices of Sinar gear. It's good to know this last press release confirms Sinar retains control of marketing, product management, support, development and production of its gear.

That is why Sinar has had other owners between the Kochs and Leica.

[prestonedavis]

Could someone offer some recommendations for a decent darkcloth? I see a couple on Amazon but I'm not sure if they're adequate. I don't want to spend too much money, but something of relative quality would be good.

[carylee2002]

Checkout the viewcamerastore.com....they have some very promising dark cloths but you can just a as easily do the jim galli way and use a old sweatshirt that works for him.

[prestonedavis]

The camera came today! I haven't had a chance to do a thorough inspection, but so far I've found that all but one of the spirit levels have dried up. And I will likely have to do some lubricating/greasing.


I'm equal parts excited and nervous.

166391

[Pere Casals]

The camera came today! I haven't had a chance to do a thorough inspection, but so far I've found that all but one of the spirit levels have dried up. And I will likely have to do some lubricating/greasing.

I'm equal parts excited and nervous.




Congratulations, you have a piece of gear. Remember to caress it a bit before boxing it.

[Roger Thoms]

Preston, congratulations on your camera, just bought one myself. Actually it's on hold at Glass Key here in San Francisco for pick up on Saturday. Fortunately mine only has one dryed out spirit level. I seem to recall seeing a post on how to repair the Sinar spirit level somewhere on the Internet. If I find it I'll let you know.

Roger

[prestonedavis]

Preston, congratulations on your camera, just bought one myself. Actually it's on hold at Glass Key here in San Francisco for pick up on Saturday. Fortunately mine only has one dryed out spirit level. I seem to recall seeing a post on how to repair the Sinar spirit level somewhere on the Internet. If I find it I'll let you know.

Roger

Thanks Roger. I've taken a closer look at it looks like only one is dried up. The other two are just moving really slow. Guess they may need replacing soon.

I'm aware of some of the threads regarding replacing/refilling a SL. I think I'll try to buy some replacements soon. Congrats on your Norma. Hopefully you got a good deal.

[prestonedavis]

Anyone know how I can find the thread size for the lens? For those keeping score at home, it's the Schneider-Kreuznach Symmar Convertible Lens 210mm/5.6 370mm/12.

My searching isn't really turning up anything.

[MAubrey]

Anyone know how I can find the thread size for the lens? For those keeping score at home, it's the Schneider-Kreuznach Symmar Convertible Lens 210mm/5.6 370mm/12.

My searching isn't really turning up anything.
On the filter holder?

58mm.

[prestonedavis]

On the filter holder?

58mm.

Ah, yes. That's right. I believe this answer was in fact answered for me earlier in this thread. Thanks for answering and jogging my memory!

[Jerry Bodine]

If you mean the filter thread size M 58 x 0.75:
https://www.schneideroptics.com/info/vintage_lens_data/large_format_lenses/symmar/data/5,6-210mm.html

For other Symmar lenses:
https://www.schneideroptics.com/info/vintage_lens_data/large_format_lenses/symmar/

[prestonedavis]

If you mean the filter thread size M 58 x 0.75:
https://www.schneideroptics.com/info/vintage_lens_data/large_format_lenses/symmar/data/5,6-210mm.html

Yes, thank you Jerry. I realized you had already answered this question for me on a previous post in this thread. But thanks again!

[prestonedavis]

Ok, so I went out for a test drive this afternoon with some HP5. Loading the film into the holders made me realize I should buy one of the changing tents. I have big hands so it was getting tight in my xl-changing bag.

Anyway, I have developed the one frame I made today and it is a total disaster. So before I go back and revisit my developing process, I thought I'd post the frame here to see if anyone can tell me if I did anything wrong in camera.

A few notes: Those black spots on the top and bottom Light leaks in my film holder? One mistake I made was that I didn't push the film holder all the way in. I figured this out after I had already pulled the dark slide out. Could this have caused those black spots?

Now that I think about my process, I'm wondering if I opened the shutter before taking the photo. Would this cause the frame to be this poorly exposed?

Like I said, I have a suspicion something may have gone wrong in my developing (bad fixer maybe) but if I did anything wrong technically that you can tell from the photo, please let me know.

166431

ETA: I'm also wondering if I inserted the film holder on the wrong side. Which side does it go in?

[Pere Casals]

...


If you place a sheet in front of you, with the notches at the right and top, then you see the emulsion side, see film datasheet, page 2, http://www.photoweb.ru/exusr/pdf/ilford/HP5_Plus.pdf

You can make fresh fixer and fix again.


Make perfect exposures, you have to nail that to have no doubt, check shutter

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/exposure-large-format.htm


I ask myself is those black squares can come from fixer or stop bath contamination before development.


I you openned the shutter by accident... yes it should be way overexposed.

You should provide more information, exposure time, f/, developing time and tank system.


It looks that there is a light leak from the right. Insert a holder at the back, remove lensboard, illuminate with a torch the back and see (in the inside) when you have a light leak if film holder is not well inserted. Or in darkness put the torch inside, illuminating the holder edges from the inside of the bellows (remove lensboard) and find leaks.

Just be shure every step is okey.

Regards

[DG 3313]

Ok, so I went out for a test drive this afternoon with some HP5. Loading the film into the holders made me realize I should buy one of the changing tents. I have big hands so it was getting tight in my xl-changing bag.

Anyway, I have developed the one frame I made today and it is a total disaster. So before I go back and revisit my developing process, I thought I'd post the frame here to see if anyone can tell me if I did anything wrong in camera.

A few notes: Those black spots on the top and bottom Light leaks in my film holder? One mistake I made was that I didn't push the film holder all the way in. I figured this out after I had already pulled the dark slide out. Could this have caused those black spots?

Now that I think about my process, I'm wondering if I opened the shutter before taking the photo. Would this cause the frame to be this poorly exposed?

Like I said, I have a suspicion something may have gone wrong in my developing (bad fixer maybe) but if I did anything wrong technically that you can tell from the photo, please let me know.

166431

ETA: I'm also wondering if I inserted the film holder on the wrong side. Which side does it go in?

The scan of the neg is converted to a pos. The dark spots on the pos say to me that they are from processing otherwise they would be white spots/ streaks from a light leak that would be dark on the negative.

I also see streaks from the right to the left around (it seems) the dark spots and there is a pattern to the spots. My guess would be that the film was making contact with something during processing and the neg didn't clear properly. I think I would do what was already said and re-fix the neg in a tray and then hypo clear it.

The streaks in the sky could be from uneven / over development in a drum. Film holders are two sided....they hold one piece of film on each side.

[prestonedavis]

The scan of the neg is converted to a pos. The dark spots on the pos say to me that they are from processing otherwise they would be white spots/ streaks from a light leak that would be dark on the negative.

I also see streaks from the right to the left around (it seems) the dark spots and there is a pattern to the spots. My guess would be that the film was making contact with something during processing and the neg didn't clear properly. I think I would do what was already said and re-fix the neg in a tray and then hypo clear it.

The streaks in the sky could be from uneven / over development in a drum. Film holders are two sided....they hold one piece of film on each side.

I developed these after a long day and was really tired so I did some stuff out of order (I did stand method with Rodinal). Processing 4x5 is new to me and it's possible I didn't load the film onto the MOD54 holder properly. I think I'm going to start from scratch and expose two more sheets. And then go out and get a fresh batch of fixer.

[Jerry Bodine]

Here's a good checklist for beginning LF user.
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/mistakes.html

Judging from the darker streaks emanating from the pair of black spots at the top of the image, I'd say it's definitely due to a developing issue.

[biedron]

Regarding which side to insert the film holder from:

On more than one occasion, "in the heat of the moment", I have mistakenly inserted the film holder from the wrong side. So to help prevent future errors, I added labels to the backs of my cameras that indicate the correct side. You may be less prone to make dumb mistakes than me however!

I can't say which is the correct side for the Sinar Norma, but on my Arcas, one side has a beveled edge (that is the correct side), and the other side has a lip to act as a stop.

Bob

[Jerry Bodine]

...I'm also wondering if I inserted the film holder on the wrong side. Which side does it go in?

If you look at the photos attached to the seller's link in post #1, there are two showing the groundglass (one in portrait orientation and one in landscape orientation). Zooming in on the portrait orientation, you can see that the top of the groundglass frame has several parallel "grooves"; that's the side the film holder goes in. For a landscape composition, the gg frame can be installed with the grooves on either the left side or the right side, but the holder always goes in the side with the grooves. Grasping the grooved edge of the frame, pull the frame away from the camera far enough to enable inserting the holder, then as you insert the holder you'll reach of point of some resistance but if you then slowly relax your grip on the grooved edge the frame will seat itself against the holder (which can then be pushed fully into the camera until it hits a definite stop). To insure the holder is fully inserted, give a little tug on the holder as if to withdraw it and it should not move.

[prestonedavis]

If you look at the photos attached to the seller's link in post #1, there are two showing the groundglass (one in portrait orientation and one in landscape orientation). Zooming in on the portrait orientation, you can see that the top of the groundglass frame has several parallel "grooves"; that's the side the film holder goes in. For a landscape composition, the gg frame can be installed with the grooves on either the left side or the right side, but the holder always goes in the side with the grooves. Grasping the grooved edge of the frame, pull the frame away from the camera far enough to enable inserting the holder, then as you insert the holder you'll reach of point of some resistance but if you then slowly relax your grip on the grooved edge the frame will seat itself against the holder (which can then be pushed fully into the camera until it hits a definite stop). To insure the holder is fully inserted, give a little tug on the holder as if to withdraw it and it should not move.

Ok, so I did that part right. Thanks!

[Jerry Bodine]

And I neglected to mention that it's good to make a habit of pinching (with thumb & index finger) the gg frame and rear standard frame together when withdrawing the darkslide from the holder or re-inserting it, as it's possible to briefly open a gap between the holder and the rear standard frame and inadvertently expose the film.

[prestonedavis]

I burned two more frames this afternoon and developed them. I made sure to leave the shutter closed this time and I used my new batch of fixer.

Everything developed fine except for a couple of defects at the bottom of the from that I'm thinking are being caused by the MOD54. I'll go back and use some different developing methods to confirm.

I have discovered however that my lens' shutter gears are slow in the slower speeds. I contacted the seller and they're suppose to send me a replacement lens.

Here is one of the frames. Absolutely nothing remarkable. Just a photo of a boring bush in our backyard. :)

166488

[Pere Casals]

I have discovered however that my lens' shutter gears are slow in the slower speeds. I contacted the seller and they're suppose to send me a replacement lens.


Anyway remember that even a brand new shutter had a +/-30% accuracy in the specs, so for marked 1/60 it can fire 1/40 or 1/80. A 50+ years old one may have more. You can make a CLA of the shutter by a repair shop.

Fortunately real speeds should be repetitive, so at the end you have a particular set of speeds that are different from the scale, so you have to do with it, you can fine adjust with diafragm if you know the real. But you should check the real speeds when you can for accurate exposure, with a shutter tester.

Another way is placing a DSLR in the back of the camera in B shutter mode and then firing the view camera shutter. You can aim to a grey wall. The DSLR raw files from the view camera can be compared with the ones taken with the DSLR with a prime lens, so you can have a very good reference.

If you seek accuracy you will be able to work well the toe region of the BW film and to nail E-6 slides. Another way is giving a bit of overexposure as a safety belt. Negative film usually can be more damaged by underexposure than with overexposure, as you know.

[prestonedavis]

Anyway remember that even a brand new shutter had a +/-30% accuracy in the specs, so for marked 1/60 it can fire 1/40 or 1/80. A 50+ years old one may have more. You can make a CLA of the shutter by a repair shop.

Fortunately real speeds should be repetitive, so at the end you have a particular set of speeds that are different from the scale, so you have to do with it, you can fine adjust with diafragm if you know the real. But you should check the real speeds when you can for accurate exposure, with a shutter tester.

Another way is placing a DSLR in the back of the camera in B shutter mode and then firing the view camera shutter. You can aim to a grey wall. The DSLR raw files from the view camera can be compared with the ones taken with the DSLR with a prime lens, so you can have a very good reference.

If you seek accuracy you will be able to work well the toe region of the BW film and to nail E-6 slides. Another way is giving a bit of overexposure as a safety belt. Negative film usually can be more damaged by underexposure than with overexposure, as you know.

Thanks for this info Peter. I suppose I should have been more specific when stating the issue with the lens. By "slow" I mean it's malfunctioning. For instance, from speeds of 1/10 on down, the shutter stays open for upwards of 5 seconds, sometimes more.

I'll see what happens with the replacement the seller says they'll send me and go from there.

[Pere Casals]

Thanks for this info Peter. I suppose I should have been more specific when stating the issue with the lens. By "slow" I mean it's malfunctioning. For instance, from speeds of 1/10 on down, the shutter stays open for upwards of 5 seconds, sometimes more before.

I'll see what happens with the replacement the seller says they'll send me and go from there.

Of course, for this level of malfunction you should ask for a replacement, one thing is adapting to old gear behaviour, and another one is clear malfunction...

[prestonedavis]

For anyone following this thread I have an update on the malfunctioning lens.

The vendor first came back to me with two options:
1. They would send me a comparable lens and I would send the bad one back
2. I could send them the original lens for repair and they would send it back to me.

I went with option 1. But then the vendor came back and said he had a more modern "Schneider Symmar S MC F/5.6" that he could send me for an additional $85. Still I decided to go with his first offer to send me a comparable lens. However, when he was packing up the lens to send me he noticed that it only went up to a shutter speed of 1/200 (my original lens goes up to 1/400). So he is now going to send me the more modern lens at no additional cost.

I'm not sure what that means in terms of a quality a quality comparison, I'm just happy to get what I hope will be a working lens.

[Jerry Bodine]

...it only went up to a shutter speed of 1/200 (my original lens goes up to 1/400)...

Preston, I think you'll find that you'll rarely need the fastest shutter speeds anyway, and it's not uncommon for them to be out of tolerance on the slow side. BTW, design tolerance standard is shown in this link from a highly regarded CLA service provider on this forum:
http://www.flutotscamerarepair.com/Shutterspeed.htm

Carol has always done well for me.

[prestonedavis]

Preston, I think you'll find that you'll rarely need the fastest shutter speeds anyway, and it's not uncommon for them to be out of tolerance on the slow side. BTW, design tolerance standard is shown in this link from a highly regarded CLA service provider on this forum:
http://www.flutotscamerarepair.com/Shutterspeed.htm

Carol has always done well for me.

Jerry, you're right. I don't anticipate needing fast shutter speeds. But in the end I just wanted him to send me a lens that worked. It was a snap decision. In the end, when for a second time being presented with the option of taking the newer of the two I went ahead and took the newer.

Thanks for the link. There is so much information out there regarding large format photography and the equipment that goes into it. I read through Using the View Camera the other day and found it to be a good foundation for me. And while I'm not one for photography workshops, I'm thinking about taking 4-class course on LF next month.

[Pere Casals]

For anyone following this thread I have an update on the malfunctioning lens.

The vendor first came back to me with two options:
1. They would send me a comparable lens and I would send the bad one back
2. I could send them the original lens for repair and they would send it back to me.

I went with option 1. But then the vendor came back and said he had a more modern "Schneider Symmar S MC F/5.6" that he could send me for an additional $85. Still I decided to go with his first offer to send me a comparable lens. However, when he was packing up the lens to send me he noticed that it only went up to a shutter speed of 1/200 (my original lens goes up to 1/400). So he is now going to send me the more modern lens at no additional cost.

I'm not sure what that means in terms of a quality a quality comparison, I'm just happy to get what I hope will be a working lens.


First a common situation is that 1/400 can be in reality 1/280, and still being in specs if it was a new lens. Mostly 1/400 marked speeds in fact work slower, in special for a well used shutter, if CLA not performed recently. ...and 1/400 has little interest.

The convertible Symmar is a very good lens, with an amazing personality, but with the Symmar-S MC you get a really sharp tool, and MultiCoating will deliver much better microcontrast when you have sun in the framming.


Here you have a Symmar-S 150mm delivering top performance.

f/11 76 85 38
f/16 57 60 38
f/22 67 67 48

http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/testing.html This test is more practical than scientific, but still a nice reference.

Those 85 Lp/mm (Line pairs per mm) are from top performer glass kind.

I've the 135 focal.

It is true that some copies (units) are better than others, but just I want to say that the 210 S lens you obtain now it is not joke, but something very close of what state of art is.

A sharp look will depend more on the photographer's technique than on the glass, but, I reiterate, this is first class glass.

To test what it is able you may need Adox CMS 20 sheets, and 60x magnifier, or TMX with a very, very contrasty subject.

[prestonedavis]

First a common situation is that 1/400 can be in reality 1/280, and still being in specs if it was a new lens. Mostly 1/400 marked speeds in fact work slower, in special for a well used shutter, if CLA not performed recently. ...and 1/400 has little interest.

The convertible Symmar is a very good lens, with an amazing personality, but with the Symmar-S MC you get a really sharp tool, and MultiCoating will deliver much better microcontrast when you have sun in the framming.


Here you have a Symmar-S 150mm delivering top performance.

f/11 76 85 38
f/16 57 60 38
f/22 67 67 48

http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/testing.html This test is more practical than scientific, but still a nice reference.

Those 85 Lp/mm (Line pairs per mm) are from top performer glass kind.

I've the 135 focal.

It is true that some copies (units) are better than others, but just I want to say that the 210 S lens you obtain now it is not joke, but something very close of what state of art is.

A sharp look will depend more on the photographer's technique than on the glass, but, I reiterate, this is first class glass.

To test what it is able you may need Adox CMS 20 sheets, and 60x magnifier, or TMX with a very, very contrasty subject.

Thanks for this. I'm so early into the LF game that I don't yet know how to read these tests. Hopefully I'll understand them sooner than later.

The replacement lens came today. The vendor included with it his speed test results. I guess this is a thing I have to keep in mind going forward with most large format lenses?

[prestonedavis]

After getting my replacement lens I've decided to do a check of the bellows that came with my Norma. And wouldn't you know it, there are quite a few pinholes throughout on the folds and creases.

My question: is there an acceptable amount of pinholes I could live with and continue to shoot normally? Or is any amount of pinholes bad? I'm sure I could cover the bellows up whenever I'm about to expose the film, but I'd rather not be bothered with yet another thing to have to remember.

I've contacted the seller to see what they are willing to do. Although, in the end I may have to track down a replacement bellows from a (hopefully) reputable seller.

[Pali K]

Preston, my Norma had quite many pin holes at the creases and I got some recommendation to patch it with liquid electrical tape. I did this almost 3 years ago and my camera has never had light leak issues since.

Just wanted to let you know before you spent more on a new bellows.

Regards,

Pali

[Steven Tribe]

I think you have been fortunate with your vendor!

For now, patching is a good option - and in the longer term, replacement Sinar bellows in the 4x5 variety are quite reasonably priced, readily available and can be installed in next to no time!

[Greg]

Preston, my Norma had quite many pin holes at the creases and I got some recommendation to patch it with liquid electrical tape. I did this almost 3 years ago and my camera has never had light leak issues since.

Just wanted to let you know before you spent more on a new bellows.

Regards,

Pali

Also had a Sinar Norma that had dozens of pinhole light leaks. I extended the bellows to near its full extension and plugged the pinholes with a mixture of Elmers glue and lampblack. Used a multi LED light panel inside the bellows to detect the pinholes and then dotted on the Elmers glue and lampblack solution. Waited about an hour for it to dry, compressed and extended the bellows several times and repeated filling in the pinholes. Took me I think 4 repetitions over the course of the evening to completely seal the bellows. Also did this in my darkroom with the overhead lights out. Once done loaded a film holder and inserted it into the back of the camera. Blank lens board in the front standard. Then took the camera outside on a sunny day, extended the bellows probably 75%, and removed the dark slide. Left it for a few hours out there turning the camera around now and then. When I processed the film was surprised to get an uneven level of fog on the negative. So went back into the darkroom and inspected for pinholes again. Sure enough found a few and sealed them. Repeated the test and this time the developed film was fog free. Than was probably 15 years ago and to this day the bellows has remained 100% light tight after much use.

[prestonedavis]

I think you have been fortunate with your vendor!

For now, patching is a good option - and in the longer term, replacement Sinar bellows in the 4x5 variety are quite reasonably priced, readily available and can be installed in next to no time!

I agree that I have bee fortunate with this vendor. He responded this morning offering to send me either a replacement bellows and a few free film holders or to replace the Norma with my choice of a comparable camera from his inventory. I'm thinking I'll take him up on the bellows replacement. Even in this short amount of time, with a few hiccups, I'm kind of fond of the Norma.

[neil poulsen]

Personally, I'd keep the Norma, as long as the standards rise and fall smoothly on the risers (vertical posts), and as long as focus is smooth front and back. It's a nice camera.

Of course, one wonders what he would offer as a replacement. Maybe that's worth knowing before making a decision?

[Rich14]

Ok, you guys, my wife can blame you for my latest camera purchase. Reading this thread made me realize I have lived far too long without ever having enjoyed a Sinar! The descriptions of the Norma and other discussion of the modularity of Sinars was just too much. I've wanted one since I first saw them in the '60s.

So I just bought one from the big auction site. A Sinar P. It's coming from Japan. I'll post when I get it.

Rich

("Will this camera take better pictures than your old one?"

"No, honey. But I'll think they are.")

[Bernice Loui]

Suggest accepting the replacement bellows if it is proven and known in good condition. Bellows are a view camera wear item, they ALL wear out at some point.

Replacing the bellows in the Norma takes much less than a minute, more like 10 seconds with experience.

Replacement 4x5 standard bellows are easily, widely available for $50 or less. Horseman L series camera bellows are directly interchange at similar to identical cost. Bag bellows ideal for wide angle lenses that require significant camera movement are also easily and widely available for $50 or less.

Due to the wide and easy availability of 4x5 Sinar bellows at low cost, repairs might not be the best way as any light leaks will ruin images made on film. One ruined sheet of film exceeds the cost of replacing the leaky bellows when film-processing-personal time required are considered.


To check for bellows light leaks, remove the front lens board, rear film holder back. Fully extend both front and rear standards. Take the camera into a dark room. use a small flash light inside the camera and illuminate the interior of the bellows wall. Move the flash light along the entire bellows, front to back on all sides. Look for and observe any light leaks on the fully extended bellows wall between the interior. Note and mark the light leaks.

This should be done before putting film in any newly acquired view camera before trying to make images.



Bernice







I agree that I have bee fortunate with this vendor. He responded this morning offering to send me either a replacement bellows and a few free film holders or to replace the Norma with my choice of a comparable camera from his inventory. I'm thinking I'll take him up on the bellows replacement. Even in this short amount of time, with a few hiccups, I'm kind of fond of the Norma.

[prestonedavis]

This should be done before putting film in any newly acquired view camera before trying to make images.


Talk about a lesson well learned! I definitely should have done this at the beginning. Fortunately I purchased from a great vendor over on the big auction site.

[Pere Casals]

Thanks for this. I'm so early into the LF game that I don't yet know how to read these tests. Hopefully I'll understand them sooner than later.

This is pretty straight, the header of the column says "Fstop/cnt/mdl/edge"

So f/11 76 85 38 meaning is that that lens resolves 76 LP/mm, line pairs per milimeter, projected in the center (cnt) of the image circle, 38 in the edge, and 85 in the middle point.

That test used Edmond Scientific Lens Resolution Chart, here you see the center, edge and middle point marked with a circle.

166654

So you have a number of USAF 1951 type patterns, then you seek the smallest pattern where you can see if bars are Hor or Vert, then to take the Group and Element number of that pattern (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1951_USAF_resolution_test_chart) to know how many Lp/mm resolves, still you have to know the magnification of the pattern projected in the Ground glass (1:20 for example) to multiply by that factor the reading, because the actual size of the pattern on the GG can be 1/20 of the real target.

Please NOTE the disclaimer of that test:

"This is at best a relative (not absolute) comparison between these lenses. Kerry and I are simply looking for the Pick of the Litter.
All lenses tested at 1:20 magnification (a typical working distance).
Test setup was TMax100, D76 processed to my system's calibrated exposure/time/temp
Canham DCLH(?) metal field 4x5, Linhof Tech III, Linhof Master Technika, Linhof Master Karden, and Tachihara wood field 4x5
Edmond Scientific Lens Resolution Chart
The negatives were exposed for Zone 7-8 for detailed white and Zone 3 for detailed shadow."






The replacement lens came today. The vendor included with it his speed test results. I guess this is a thing I have to keep in mind going forward with most large format lenses?

Yes, see here section 3. http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/exposure-large-format.htm

This is very important for Velvia/Provia. For negarive film you can overexpose a bit as a safety belt for shutter inaccuracy.

IMHO a serious LF photographer needs to check his shutters with a shutter tester, in special if shooting slides, but opinions about this may vary.

[Pere Casals]

Thanks for this. I'm so early into the LF game that I don't yet know how to read these tests. Hopefully I'll understand them sooner than later.

This is pretty straight, the header of the column says "Fstop/cnt/mdl/edge"

So f/11 76 85 38 meaning is that that lens resolves 76 LP/mm, line pairs per milimeter, projected in the center (cnt) of the image circle, 38 in the edge, and 85 in the middle point.

That test used Edmond Scientific Lens Resolution Chart, here you see the center, edge and middle point marked with a circle.

166656

So you have a number of USAF 1951 type patterns, then you seek the smallest pattern where you can see if bars are Hor or Vert, then to take the Group and Element number of that pattern (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1951_USAF_resolution_test_chart) to know how many Lp/mm resolves, still you have to know the magnification of the pattern projected in the Ground glass (1:20 for example) to multiply by that factor the reading, because the actual size of the pattern on the GG can be 1/20 of the real target.

Please NOTE the disclaimer of that Perez & T test:

"This is at best a relative (not absolute) comparison between these lenses. Kerry and I are simply looking for the Pick of the Litter.
All lenses tested at 1:20 magnification (a typical working distance).
Test setup was TMax100, D76 processed to my system's calibrated exposure/time/temp
Canham DCLH(?) metal field 4x5, Linhof Tech III, Linhof Master Technika, Linhof Master Karden, and Tachihara wood field 4x5
Edmond Scientific Lens Resolution Chart
The negatives were exposed for Zone 7-8 for detailed white and Zone 3 for detailed shadow."






The replacement lens came today. The vendor included with it his speed test results. I guess this is a thing I have to keep in mind going forward with most large format lenses?

Yes, see here section 3. http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/exposure-large-format.htm

This is very important for Velvia/Provia. For negative film you can overexpose a bit as a safety belt for shutter inaccuracy.

IMHO a serious LF photographer needs to check his shutters with a shutter tester, in special if shooting slides, but opinions about this may vary.

[prestonedavis]

My replacement bellows came in today. They appear to be brand new(!).

Question, is there a break in period with new bellows? I ask because when stretching them out to compare to the old ones in size, the new bellows feel stiff as if I'm stretching them too far.

[Jerry Bodine]

IDK, it's been many years since I bought mine new, but I'm certain they did not seem stiff when I got them. Try leaving it extended overnight and see if it's more flexible tomorrow. Then check the bubble levels on both standards to see if there's any indication of movement (tilting) caused by extending the bellows.

[Greg]

My replacement bellows came in today. They appear to be brand new(!).

Question, is there a break in period with new bellows? I ask because when stretching them out to compare to the old ones in size, the new bellows feel stiff as if I'm stretching them too far.

Have been using LEXOL leather conditioner for years, even if the bellows isn't leather. Just seems to work great on any bellows material.

[prestonedavis]

IDK, it's been many years since I bought mine new, but I'm certain they did not seem stiff when I got them. Try leaving it extended overnight and see if it's more flexible tomorrow. Then check the bubble levels on both standards to see if there's any indication of movement (tilting) caused by extending the bellows.

Ok. I'll leave it extended overnight to see what happens.

[prestonedavis]

Have been using LEXOL leather conditioner for years, even if the bellows isn't leather. Just seems to work great on any bellows material.

Good to know!

[prestonedavis]

So I think everything with my Sinar is in proper enough order for me to move forward with learning the ins and outs of LF. I exposed a few sheets the other day. Nothing spectacular as I just wanted to make sure the new bellows was working out as well as the Fujinon 135mm I picked up from a local selling it on craigslist.

I hope to spend a lot more time with it this weekend.

Here's one of the images I made the other day.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4082/34938338613_75c4006ee0_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Veo7Qv)
Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/Veo7Qv) by preston davis (https://www.flickr.com/photos/level76/), on Flickr

Before this photo I was using the MOD54 to developed my test sheets but that thing was way too complicated and I just couldn't get the film to stay in place. So I purchased the SP-445 and am very happy with it. More practical compared to the MOD54 in my opinion.

Thanks to everyone here for all the advice and information shared in the thread. It was really helpful.

[Peter De Smidt]

You're off to a great start. Nice work!

[Pere Casals]

A good photographer and a Norma makes a perfect couple. I bet you are to enjoy that trip. Also the Norma will be happy, galloping again...

Powerful composition. It looks that framming with image upside down delivers better compositions, really, I don't know why...