Interesting Lerebours Counterfeit lenses?

[Steven Tribe]

A conflict between the need for "truth" and messing up someone's auction listings.

There are 2 splendid looking "early Lerebours" listed as 332264787549 and 332264790250.

I have multiple problems with the engravings and sent my concerns to the lister. Perhaps others can see what I don't like?

[goamules]

The font and the "&" instead of "et" don't look familiar. But if someone has the book on French Lenses, maybe they can see if others have ever been like this.

[Steven Tribe]

I have the book and there are no examples of lenses that have the ampersand (&) rather than the "et".

There are also no examples of text engraved "round" the brass sleeve, rather than "across" the sleeve.

The sub text "A PARIS" would never be engraved by a Frenchman it would be "À PARIS". Lerebours always used small letters - " à Paris". I think these were "Made in England".

Minor point is that this is supposed to be an early lens and the engraving is quite a lot smaller on these.

Perhaps these are examples of the copies which lead Lerebours to introduce serial numbers and/or lens micro engraving?

There are a few brass oddities, too. There are only two mounted screws which, otherwise, are only found on the CdVs made by Ross

[Two23]

I too have emailed the seller Apsley about these glaring discrepancies: "LEREBOURS & SECRETAN" instead of "LEREBOURS et SECRETAN", and also "A PARIS" instead of "a Paris." I spent over an hour looking at the engravings on a couple of dozen other L&S lenses and couldn't find a single example that matched the lenses in question. There is also a difference in the way the shaft was attached to the focus knob. I asked if seller would absolutely guarantee authenticity in light of rampant counterfitting at that time. I have yet to get a reply. As much as I am (was) interested in both lenses, I'm thinking there is little chance these are genuine, and I'm not going to risk any money on them. I'm also not impressed with seller's non-response to my request to guarantee authenticity. Unless other confirmed examples of L&S using "&" instead of et, and "A PARIS" are provided, I'm going to have to skip these. I am disappointed that an established seller like this did not seem to investigate these anomalies a bit more and offer an explanation. While I don't pretend to have the experience of Tribe, I do have a nice little collection of pre-1860 Petzvals and have been buying them over the past six years.


Kent in SD

[pjd]

I emailed the seller, he replied saying he'd been away a couple of days so didn't reply immediately. He added that he'd removed both listings to give him time to do a bit more research.

I don't think anything untoward is going on with the seller, and in fairness the listing states full refunds are available on all items, for any reason.

[Steven Tribe]

I have every confidence in the lister, who has listed many interesting large format items in a very sober and understated way.

He has emailed me with a very nice message. I have mentioned this thread and I suggested he relist as a "LErebours et Secretan" lens instead of a Lerebours et Secretan lens - and list all the problems the engraving and brass work has! I know he prides himself on not having replicas, but these fakes are historically very interesting.

Unlike the terrible Voigtlander engravings we see every year!!

As the listings have been ended, here is a direct link to one of them:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/332264787549?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&autorefresh=true

And this is what an early engraving should look like. Serial numbers started around 4,000.

[Two23]

They likely are older, i.e. 1850s, lenses. I just wouldn't pay a premium for them. OTOH, these might be the best counterfit examples I've yet seen! As such they are interesting historical relics. I've bought from Apsley before and likely will again.


Kent in SD

[Pfsor]

The sub text "A PARIS" would never be engraved by a Frenchman it would be "À PARIS". Lerebours always used small letters - " à Paris". I think these were "Made in England".


Steven, not sure if you wrote it just as a typo but no educated Frenchman would ever write "À PARIS". Quite the contrary - an educated Frenchman if using capital letters would always write "A PARIS" - knowing that in written French accents are omitted over capital letters. Cheers!

[Steven Tribe]

No typo - my mistake! I was in doubt, but the French keyboard accepted it. My apologies to all French speakers and Francophiles!

In fact, the "&" comes from the French (and Latin) "et" which was abbreviated to strange swiggle looking a little like &!

[Bernard_L]

knowing that in written French accents are omitted over capital letters
Not so. This has become tolerated through the use of typewriters, that do not provide accents on capital letters.
But proper typesetting (books...) has them. And the spellchecker also flags missing accents on capitals.

[Pfsor]

Bernard, I'm afraid you don't have the French scholar education in the matter. Canadian perhaps? Even recently I spoke to a Francophone teacher who confirmed to me what I wrote when we complained about a notice on a door, having an accent on a capital vowel. In all my French studies I was always told about it - and I studied French "A PARIS".
Something on the topic - https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_des_majuscules_en_fran%C3%A7ais
Where you can see that the usage depends a lot on the geographic position of the teacher, hence notre différence.

[Pfsor]

Not so. This has become tolerated through the use of typewriters, that do not provide accents on capital letters.
But proper typesetting (books...) has them. And the spellchecker also flags missing accents on capitals.

Now I start to understand - you must be from Québec! Which explains it all! :) (Since I read this - http://www.francaisfacile.com/forum/lire.php?num=7&msg=23780&titre=Accent+sur+les+lettres+majuscules ) My apologies to all Québécois!

[Steven Tribe]

Not many French makers have accents in their names. Clément et Gilmore engraved their lenses CLÉMENT....

[jaytral]

... et Gilmer ;)

[Pfsor]

Not many French makers have accents in their names. Clément et Gilmore engraved their lenses CLÉMENT....

Are you sure about the accent? Because here is an example of their lens without the accent - http://www.collection-appareils.fr/x/html/appareil-10592-Clement%20et%20Gilmer_Folding%208%20X%2010.5.html

[Steven Tribe]

Oui!
Photos tomorrow.

And here they are, from Corrado's book. These are from the 1890´s +.

[Bernard_L]

Bernard, I'm afraid you don't have the French scholar education in the matter.
Looks like Michel de Montaigne and Joseph-Louis Lagrange also lack a proper scholar education.

From Montaigne "Journal de Voyage" (Travel Diary), paperback edition, Gallimard. Typeset in 2013.
166243
From a fac-simile of the 4th edition (1888) of La Mécanique Analytique (1788)
166244

[Bernard_L]

Now I start to understand - you must be from Québec! Which explains it all! :) (Since I read this - http://www.francaisfacile.com/forum/lire.php?num=7&msg=23780&titre=Accent+sur+les+lettres+majuscules ) My apologies to all Québécois!
Did you even read the content of the link you provide? Excerpt:


Voici un texte de l'Académie française

Quant à l’utilisation des accents sur les majuscules, il est malheureusement manifeste que l’usage est flottant. On observe dans les textes manuscrits une tendance certaine à l’omission des accents. Il en va de même dans les textes dactylographiés, en raison notamment des possibilités limitées qu’offrent les machines traditionnelles. (...)

On veille donc, en bonne typographie, à utiliser systématiquement les capitales accentuées, y compris la préposition À, comme le font bien sûr tous les dictionnaires, à commencer par le Dictionnaire de l’Académie française, ou les grammaires, comme le Bon usage de Grevisse, mais aussi l’Imprimerie nationale, la Bibliothèque de la Pléiade, etc. (...)

A partial translation: "... it is unfortunately clear that usage is fluctuating. (...) likewise in typewritten texts because of limitations of classical typewriters" [just what I said] "One should therefore systematically use accents on capitals, as seen of course in all dictionaries, starting with the one of the Academy, grammar textbooks, (...)"

[Pfsor]

Not only I read it but I also understood it and compared with other sources. The decision of the French Academy is a recent one, from 2002 and by this decision they wanted to reverse the established practice not to write accents on capital letters. See also all the other debate in the other link I gave you.
Belgians and Swiss French speakers are also maintaining their tradition of not writing accents on capital letters. By the way the latest addition to the French orthography wanted by the French Academy encountered a lot of lol even by French intellectuals. Read all the stuff I linked to before you start to defend Quebec by horns.

[Pfsor]

Looks like Michel de Montaigne and Joseph-Louis Lagrange also lack a proper scholar education.

From Montaigne "Journal de Voyage" (Travel Diary), paperback edition, Gallimard. Typeset in 2013.
166243
From a fac-simile of the 4th edition (1888) of La Mécanique Analytique (1788)
166244

A nice try, Bernard but you hide the fact that the orthography rules were changing from the medieval times in France up to the recent very controversial decision of the French Academy. All this you can read in the links I mention. In any case, don't think that in France they write their French like in 1788. It's only in Quebec that somebody would use this logic. (Michel de Montaigne lived in 16th century...)

[Steven Tribe]

Very interesting, gents - but we are talking engraving practise back in 1855-60, assuming that the counterfeit is from that date.

There are a couple of brasswork items which suggest it could have been later:

The 2 screws mounting is common for smaller projection lenses later in the Century.

These screws are iron and have raised heads. Early French screws used here are countersunk brass.

[Two23]

There are a couple of brasswork items which suggest it could have been later:

The 2 screws mounting is common for smaller projection lenses later in the Century.

These screws are iron and have raised heads. Early French screws used here are countersunk brass.


So, it might not have been an early contemporary mass producing counterfits, but maybe someone later who had a "blank" lens sitting around and decided to get more for it. That might explain why we've not seen one of these before.


Kent in SD

[Mark Sawyer]

I'm waiting for the Cajun translations from Louisiana...

[Bernard_L]

I'm waiting for the Cajun translations from Louisiana...
As far as I'm concerned, don't hold your breath. I'm not interested or amused in pursuing this. Btw, I'm French born, educated, national, and resident.

[goamules]

Evidently.....

[Mark Sawyer]

On the topic of counterfeits, perhaps the worst I've seen...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-J-H-Dallmeyer-Rapid-Rectilinear-Brass-Lens-5-x-8-/162559068483?hash=item25d9468943:g:yM8AAOSwSzRZQLCC

[Two23]

For $35 it would great to have as a joke.


Kent in SD

[Steven Tribe]

The items have been relisted with some of the arguments against this being genuine, given. He suggests they are genuine articles and uses the iron screws support this. My experience is that iron/steel came later.

In addition, he thinks the presence of quite a lot of "blooming", something I have never seen on early French lenses, is support for his opinion.

One of the lenses has the reverse engraving Achille Frogé , Opticien Bayonne. He has added some extra detail photos, including the lens edge pencil marks which is a single S.

Perhaps Achille Frogé is responsible?

[Apsley]

Hello Large Format Photography community i have finally joined! I am the guy behind the Lerebours & Secretan - is it isn't it listing. Happy to answer all questions concerning the lenses.

Lots of interesting posts

Matt Nunn - Apsley

[Two23]

Happy to see you appear. I think you could be a valuable resource.


Kent in SD

[Two23]

I was a bit astonished they went that high! A similar Valentin lens went for about a quarter of that price.


Kent in SD

[seven]

seems Lerebours is the new hype...

[Steven Tribe]

My views on the two items haven't changed! They are certainly very interesting conversation pieces with so much against them.

I am delighted that the restricted focus on Ross (in part) and Dallmeyer has been extended to include the important French makers who didn't manage to survive long into the 20th Century. There are a lot good Petzvals and convertible Petzvals (not a UK speciality!). I am sure that Corrado's book has really done a lot of PR and seems to found by everyone who is listing items these days. I hope soon they will start using Pont & Princelle's booklets soon - these (in general) are very good in providing data about focal lengths, sizes etc. and identifying specific models.

[Steven Tribe]

There is now a third example of a "Lerebours" with the dubious engraving from the same source (engraved retailer's name). This one is in very much worse condition. Can be seen here:

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/flintsauction/catalogue-id-flints10004/lot-b8e67bfb-60c3-4f77-8168-a82a01206cba

The lister behind the listing of the other two is one of the people behind Flint's auctions.

[Steven Tribe]

There is now a third example of a "Lerebours" with the dubious engraving from the same source (engraved retailer's name). This one is in very much worse condition. Can be seen here:

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/flintsauction/catalogue-id-flints10004/lot-b8e67bfb-60c3-4f77-8168-a82a01206cba

The lister behind the listing of the other two is one of the people behind Flint's auctions.

I have changed my mind about these three lenses! What I think has happened is that Hermagis sent a batch of lenses (at least three and without engraving) to the retailing optician in the Provinces. This optician did both the Hermagis engraving on one side of the sleeve and his own name on the other side. This would explain the obvious differences from the usual ex-Lerebours style.

What convinced me was that this last lens still has the original brass hood insert for washer stops. Only pre-serial number Hermagis and Lerebours have these.