Official Fujifilm Japan announcement of end of Acros sheet film

[Oren Grad]

This has been discussed elsewhere without a documented source, but Fuji has now posted an announcement in Japan:

http://ffis.fujifilm.co.jp/information/articlein_0066.html

The announcement refers to an "estimated end of shipping" in May 2018. I would guess that this means they have either already terminated production or have scheduled the last run, and are projecting availability based on anticipated sales rates.

[Peter De Smidt]

Well, that's a real sadness.

[Pere Casals]

Let's make some room in the freezer, to allow future great night shots.

This is not only sad. It also shows a Fuji weak comitment with film photography culture.

In a recent thread about film price I was asking to debate if Kodak and Fuji were squeezing present customers and preparing to discontinue the LF product.

A high price ends in low sales, with fixed costs going higher, and finally going out of profit.

Of course Fuji is free to proceed like this, but Ilford still manufactures BW paper, supporting LF photographers.


I would like Fuji could see the way sheet film could increase their corporate prestige.


"Even as early as the 1980s, the company had foreseen the switch from film to digital, so "it developed a three-pronged strategy: to squeeze as much money out of the film business as possible, to prepare for the switch to digital and to develop new business lines." While both film manufacturers recognized this fundamental change, Fuji Photo adapted to this shift much more successfully"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujifilm


Well, this is not sad, it's nasty.

[Bob Salomon]

"Well, this is not sad, it's nasty."

No, it is the size of the market, the cost of manufacturing, marketing and distributing, the sales volume and how much film is not sold in time to avoid short dating.

In other words the market has spoken. It is just good business. After all, do you expect the manufacture to market at a loss to just please you?

[Pere Casals]

"Well, this is not sad, it's nasty."

No, it is the size of the market, the cost of manufacturing, marketing and distributing, the sales volume and how much film is not sold in time to avoid short dating.

In other words the market has spoken. It is just good business. After all, do you expect the manufacture to market at a loss to just please you?



Hello Bob,

We discussed that earlier.

What I expect is what Ilford try to do: making HP5, Delta and FP4 sheets profitable by offering a great product at a great price.

Do you think that Ilford is to discontinue film sheets? or increasing the price to squeeze present customers?

Bob, you know this bussiness like few people, you know that Ilford has a bet for the long term. Like with paper.


Here https://www.ilfordphoto.com/ they explain it:


"WHY CHOOSE ILFORD

Our black and white products enable the highest photographic quality, having been honed by 137 years of experience.
We are passionate about what we do with a long tradition of commitment to black and white film photography.
We manufacture to a consistently high standard.
We retain the past, embrace the future and share our passion for black and white photography. "


Regards

[koraks]

Here we go again.

[B.S.Kumar]

Ironically, just when Intrepid's Kickstarter 8x10 campaign took off.
If, and that's a very big if, sales show a consistent increase in the next 6 months, they may reconsider.

Kumar

[Bob Salomon]

Hello Bob,

We discussed that earlier.

What I expect is what Ilford try to do: making HP5, Delta and FP4 sheets profitable by offering a great product at a great price.

Do you think that Ilford is to discontinue film sheets? or increasing the price to squeeze present customers?

Bob, you know this bussiness like few people, you know that Ilford has a bet for the long term. Like with paper.


Here https://www.ilfordphoto.com/ they explain it:


"WHY CHOOSE ILFORD

Our black and white products enable the highest photographic quality, having been honed by 137 years of experience.
We are passionate about what we do with a long tradition of commitment to black and white film photography.
We manufacture to a consistently high standard.
We retain the past, embrace the future and share our passion for black and white photography. "


Regards

The current Ilford company is not 137 years old. Their name is.
And Fuji's business decisions are not based on what Ilford does. It is based on what will continue to make a ROI that will satisfy their shareholders and their corporate parteners. Not what satisfies you.

[Pere Casals]

Here we go again.

Horse is alive. Looks dead, but it's alive. A Sioux like me can trot it 100 miles, before eating it.

[Pere Casals]

The current Ilford company is not 137 years old. Their name is.
And Fuji's business decisions are not based on what Ilford does. It is based on what will continue to make a ROI that will satisfy their shareholders and their corporate parteners. Not what satisfies you.

Fuji managers make decissions to please their shareholders, ok. Their deccision is to squeeze present customers now and discontinue soon. Perfect...

Ilford managers offer sheet film at ex-factoy cost based price, preparing for a long term bussiness. I'm to but their products !!!

Why ??? Me, I'm an amateur photographer. I love film. I want to support a company that is to source produts to me in the future, not the one that is squeezing the market and will leave me around.

I don't say Kodak/Ilford can't do what they do. What I say is that I look to the future when I put my little money in one pocket or another.

[Bob Salomon]

Good for you. Have you supported any of the film companies by becoming a shareholder in them?

[Pere Casals]

Good for you. Have you supported any of the film companies by becoming a shareholder in them?

Ilford also has shareholders. Until I know Ilford shareholders are happy with Ilford management.

I'm not to support film companies as an investor, but as a customer I prefer to support the company that will source me paper and sheet film in the future, aganist supporting companies I suspect prefering short term cash instead long term bussiness.

If I'm interested in future sheet film availability... why not favouring companies that have a commitment with that ?


Bob, they are wrong. Film is a teasure. Film imagery is a cultural asset, they have in their hands a vault of inmense value.

Time ago bicycles were relegated because cars were more convenient, but today bicycles came back and do that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x76VEPXYaI0

Film is like bicycles, something that will return, because things with inmense value are prone to return.

One day Fuji will destroy all Acros line, they will destroy a cultural asset of inmense value, also in money/goodwill terms.

[Pere Casals]

This is another example for my analogy: film vs bicycles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ_IQS3VKjA

Something that at some point it was relegated, but had an inmense value yet to be discovered....

[faberryman]

Pere,

How many sheets of this cultural asset have you purchased?

[Pere Casals]

Pere,

How many sheets of this cultural asset have you purchased?

I'm a newcomer (amateur) to LF, so I had little time to puchase a lot, I've one 8x10 box and one 4x5 box. Fuji pricing for LF products is simply discouraging, still I'll try to find the budget to purchase some boxes of each format for my future night photography, to be cold stored.

Because excessive (IMHO) pricing I'll use it only for night, still it is a film that I love a lot, some of my (MF) images I love the more are in Acros.


So, TMX/Y users: just prepare for the same, make some room in the fridges.

IMHO Kodak may follow Fuji, their LF punishing pricing is to discourage new people, sells will soon or late "earthrocket", and kaput.

[Jeff T]

That's too bad for Acros fans. This is news but hardly a surprise. In this tight market there is not enough volume for economy scale for Fuji to produce large batches. Smaller companies like Foma, Ilford or some other company will fill in the gap. What I like about Acros is the fine grain, loads of tones, reciprocity, and excellent quality control, however, Fuji has not put any real effort into marketing in the U.S. to gain new consumers.

[Lachlan 717]

It strikes me as a Self Fulfilling Prophacy to a certain degree.

Fuji's long term lack of support for their film products AND their lack of connection with their user base has been a long term paradigm.

Yes, they can say "We told you so", but they are certainly culpable to some degree.

But, as Bob wrote, they have no obligation to continue production, regardless of profitability. Film is not ammune to Thatcherism...

[munz6869]

Well the best thing to do is buy and use it whilst it lasts... if they change their mind, yay, but otherwise at least we have all experienced it and can compare it to what went before and after... I have a box in the fridge currently - I shall use it next outing, and replenish it forthwith!!

Marc!

[ben_hutcherson]

I have never shot Acros in any form, but none the less am sorry to see the loss of yet another large format emulsion.

To be honest, my only use for Fuji for a long time now has been for transparency film, and I shoot probably 100 rolls a year of 120 Velvia 50. Not too long ago, I bought my first 35mm transparency film in a while, but if I keep pace will probably shoot 20 or so 35mm rolls this year. I know that's a drop in the bucket in terms of their total film sales, but it's what I can do to keep an emulsion alive that I love.

Being a relative newcomer to LF, I have so far only bought one new box of Fuji sheet film(Velvia 100) although I'm likely going to order some Velvia 50 through B.S. Kumar in the next couple of months. I want to get comfortable with my expired Velvia(not Velvia 50 :) ) first.

For the mean time, I'm probably not going to adopt an "Acros habit" although I guess I owe it to myself to probably pick up 5 or 10 rolls while it's still available. I'm always hesitant to blow money on an "unknown" to me sheet film. I'm sure it's a great film, although FP4+ and Tri-X have yet to really leave me wanting anything more(I know folks around here rave about TMY2, but I can't warm up to it at least when I've shot it in the smaller formats). If I try and like it, I'll buy a box or two but I doubt that will be enough to turn the tide.

[Corran]

When Fuji keeps increasing prices 20% every 6 months to a year, and then pretty much cuts US distribution of much of their product line in certain formats, what do they expect? Lachlan is correct, they fulfilled their own prophecy with their actions. The out-of-control tug of war between rising price and consequently falling demand has resulted in this, unsurprisingly. I predicted it several years ago when they started their campaign of price hikes.

As for profitability, it seems to me that discontinuing product is playing the short game. With interest in film surging and another analog renaissance on the horizon similar to vinyl records, it seems like it might behoove Fuji to steady the course even if it means losses in the short-term. But I certainly don't have the eagle-eye view of the market like their analysts surely do, so I could be wrong of course.

I always remind myself that Fuji (and Kodak) have a diverse portfolio of products, and as a business they are of course most likely to focus on what makes the most amount of money. Couple that with huge production lines that are unwieldy for today's market, it's no surprise that a company like Ilford that is more firmly entrenched in film/darkroom materials is holding steady and not hiking their prices like the others. Along with smaller companies like Foma, Ferrania, and perhaps even the Chinese firms manufacturing films, there will be options. Maybe not your personal favorite or perceived "best" film, but options nonetheless. Better than nothing - and speaking of which, I am more concerned with the availability of color films frankly.

I don't lament Acros that much as I was never a big fan and have only been shooting it as a stop-gap till Kodak can get their act together with the 120 backing paper for TMX. I only shot a dozen sheets or so of Acros in 4x5. So this doesn't really effect me much directly but I am more concerned about the market as a whole.

[Pere Casals]

Those nasty managers treat film like an obsolete digital point & shot. They don't realize the inmense corporate value of owning the history for the future.

Problem is that corporate managers are bussiness school oriented, and don't understand the inmaterial value of key bussiness components. With an excellent accounting knowledge they miss the opportunities.

LF photography has been damaged by the poor understanding by these nasty managers.

I'd like to mention an example of that, one time Microsoft had in this hands all necessary to be the king of internet, but they lost the battle aganist Google, then a weak startup. Later they lost the battle on mobility...

Now we see Kodak and Fuji having in their hands the inmense value of having true artists using their products. LF is not a joke, also it is not about resolution: there is a critical aesthetical culture around it, not very popular but elitist in the sense of artistic quality.

This is like having a Picasso in the bathroom, and using it some day when there is a need.


Squeeze remaining customers now and discuntinue next week. But what about having powerful artists using their products ? What about brand prestige ? What about dealing with the talented ?

Rather than promoting, protecting and exploiting that asset, they throw it because then don't see the value, as lazzy managers at Microsoft did not see the internet oportunity: They seized Netscape but they did not see the importance of Google Search, having all money in this world.

Stupid, nasty people.


Problem is that one of these days they can do the same with LF slides. In fact they look being in the way, from pricing policy.

[Peter De Smidt]

Why keep harping about this? Acros is my favorite film. I'll be sad when it's gone, but then it's time to move on. Heaping on a whole bunch of negativity on top of the fact of the lose of a film doesn't do anything good.

[Sal Santamaura]

Why keep harping about this?...Harping? Is someone harping? The Ignore feature is a beautiful thing. :D

[faberryman]

Pere,

This is what happens when you advocate boycotting firms like Fuji and Kodak and steering business to Ilford. Demand goes down, prices go up, and films are discontinued. You bear some personal responsibility for the cessation of production of 4x5 Fuji Acros. And now your are complaining. Reap what you sow.

[DennisD]

Why keep harping about this? Acros is my favorite film. I'll be sad when it's gone, but then it's time to move on. Heaping on a whole bunch of negativity on top of the fact of the lose of a film doesn't do anything good.

Thank you, Peter. Well said.
I agree this is an unfortunate turn of events.

However, ranting will not help. It is a waste of time that would be better spent in the darkroom or out making photographs.

Companies are in business to make a profit. Film is obviously a sagging profit center in Fuji's experience and/or estimation. They cannot be expected to keep up production when the returns are slim or negative.

Complaints to Fuji or about their action will only fall on deaf ears. IIWII.

Other ( smaller ) producers of film products will benefit from Fuji's decision in terms of market share.

Those who are seriously disappointed and feeling this loss might be better served by showing support of film products and writing a letter to Ilford encouraging them to pick up where Fuji left off.

Otherwise, "move on" to an alternative.

[Pere Casals]

Pere,

This is what happens when you advocate boycotting firms like Fuji and Kodak and steering business to Ilford. Demand goes down, prices go up, and films are discontinued. You bear some personal responsibility for the cessation of production of 4x5 Fuji Acros. And now your are complaining. Reap what you sow.


This is not happening because me, I'm not that important. This happens because it was scheduled: squeezing present customers before discontinuing, and thus treasoning loyal customers that are not aware that their critical source was to be killed.

[Pere Casals]

Harping? Is someone harping? The Ignore feature is a beautiful thing. :D

Hello Sal,

I'm happy that you are following what I post. :confused:

Best regards.

[Pere Casals]

Well, gentlemen:

Now we have a fact, Fuji discontinues a major film LF product, of great value for photographers, a true iconic reference.

To me this unveils a corporate policy that they tried to hide.

So here we have the evident reason of the irrational price increase for Kodak/Fuji LF products: They are squeezing present customers to discontinue those product lines.

IMHO they have no plans for a long term bussiness: they are killing that, and have no commitment with their customers.


The end of LF Acros and the recent pricing policy are linked.

So, IMHO, prepare to say goodbye to LF Provia, Velvia, TXP, TMXY...

[Pere Casals]

Why keep harping about this? Acros is my favorite film. I'll be sad when it's gone, but then it's time to move on. Heaping on a whole bunch of negativity on top of the fact of the lose of a film doesn't do anything good.

Hello Peter,

Let me show what I think is the counter of negativity:


165454

165455

165456

I felt a change in the Ilford corporate image. Now they are to exploit very actively their commitment with analog photographers.


JOINT THE ANALOGUE REVOLUTION, they say !!!

This is promoting film culture/popularity, to bet for long term bussiness. Why Kodak/Fuji are so negative ???? (Now price is 2x, and tomorrow we discontinue)

Regards,
Pere

[ben_hutcherson]

Yep, Kodak is really squeezing the large format market hard.

In fact, so hard that in July. 2015 Freestyle listed TMY2 at $129.53 a box(143.99 retail). Right now, in May of 2017, the same box sells for $116.99(129.99 retail).

Yes indeed, Kodak keeps raising the prices of their LF products-in the past two years they have raised their retail price by a full -$14.

TXP has seen a price increase of a full -$10 for a 50 sheet box.

Yes indeed, Kodak is hiking their prices steadily for sheet film.

Our resident horse-beater seems to overlook that fact, though.

(2015 prices taken from https://web.archive.org/web/20150711130049/http://www.freestylephoto.biz:80/category/2-Film/Black-and-White-Film?page=7 . Current prices taken from http://www.freestylephoto.biz/category/2-Film/Black-and-White-Film?mfg%5B%5D=63&attr%5B%5D=1-4 )

BTW, I HATE the term analog photography in reference to film. Film grains are either on or off-there's no in-between. By contrast, a pixel on a CCD/CMOS sensor responds with a signal proportional to the amount of light hitting it that is then converted to a stream of ones and zeros.

[Peter De Smidt]

Pere,

Your posts do the opposite of promoting your view.

[Pere Casals]

Yep, Kodak is really


Numbers are numbers.


Film Price per 80 sq inches

TMY 135 ............4,95
TMY 120 ............4,81
TMY 4x5 ............10,80
TMY 8x10 ............10,35

Fuji Acros 135 ............6,49
Fuji Acros 120 ............4,79
Fuji Acros 4x5 ............10,70
Fuji Acros 8x10 ............9,98


----------------------------------------------------


HP5 135 ............5,19
HP5 120 ............4,69
HP5 4x5 ............5,27
HP5 4x5 ............5,00
HP5 8x10 ............4,40


Delta 100 135 ............6,95
Delta 100 120 ............5,29
Delta 100 4x5 ............5,91
Delta 100 4x5 ............5,40 (different retailer)
Delta 100 8x10 ............4,60


Here you have the complete list:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?137828-The-Film-Pricing-Thread/page17&highlight=film+price+pere+casals

[Pere Casals]

Pere,

Your posts do the opposite of promoting your view.

Why ?

I summarize my view: Fuji/Kodak are thinking to kill LF lines. To me their sheet pricing suggests they don't consider new customers for the long term.


Why Kodak/Fuji are not promoting film usage ? like this:

165460

[ben_hutcherson]

I've seen your list more times than I care to count.

Once again, explain to me why if Kodak is really trying to "kill" the LF market when the prices on two emulsions often discussed are lower now than they were two years ago.

You're ignoring this because it doesn't support your narrative.

Don't try the silver price argument now because silver is $2-3/toz higher than it was in 2015.

And please spare us another copy paste job on the price per square inch chart-we've all seen it more times than we care to count now, and posting it a second time in this thread isn't going to show a darn thing.

[Pere Casals]

I've seen your list more times than I care to count.

Once again, explain to me why if Kodak is really trying to "kill" the LF market when the prices on two emulsions often discussed are lower now than they were two years ago.

You're ignoring this because it doesn't support your narrative.

Don't try the silver price argument now because silver is $2-3/toz higher than it was in 2015.

And please spare us another copy paste job on the price per square inch chart-we've all seen it more times than we care to count now, and posting it a second time in this thread isn't going to show a darn thing.


Hello Ben,

IMHO things are quite simple: term of the marketing graphs.

After complex calculations marketing staff plots a well known graph: Profit sv Price. Profit depends on price, sells, fixed costs, and variable costs. (and sells depends on price...)

When your product has captive customers then graph have two versions, depending on the term you calculate the profit, so kodak/fuji managers may have a plot with short term profit vs price, and another one for long term profit depending on the price.


If you bet for long term bussines you cannot squeeze your captive customers, beacuse then the global profit earthrockets. If you plan to kill a product line the most lucrative policy is squeezing your captive customers, just what they do.

If any doubt, see the acros discontinuation.

Also there is a tied graph, return on investment in publicity, for short and long term, vs total investment in publicity.


So Kodak/Fuji don't know what will happen with LF in the future, and they opted for squeeze today and discontinue tomorrow.


Regards.

PD: And, to me, this is very sad. I'm desolated an angry.

[faberryman]

Except that Fuji does not have any captive customers. Fuji just has regular customers who have choices in the film they elect to purchase. Instead, Fuji has a price/demand curve, which likely shows that they can't sell enough film at the desired profit to make continued manufacture viable, so they act rationally and discontinue the product. I give them enough credit to believe they have including intangible values, such as reputation, cultural treasure, etc. in their calculation. Compare that with your irrational hand-wringing.

[Pere Casals]

Except that Fuji does not have any captive customers. Fuji just has regular customers who have choices in the film they elect to purchase. Instead, Fuji has a price/demand curve, which likely shows that they can't sell enough film at the desired profit to make continued manufacture viable, so they act rationally and discontinue the product. I give them enough credit to believe they have including intangible values, such as reputation, cultural treasure, etc. in their calculation. Compare that with your irrational hand-wringing.

Fuji have captive customers: all color slide photographers. Velvia and Provia users have no alternative. (Ektachrome 135 returns in few months, it looks).

Now Fuji say, hey man, Velvia box is $550 (in my country) with taxes:

165461

do you want to shot slides or not... ???

As they have no competition... and even if they sell the half they will have more profit... But they are to kill the product line in the medium term, like with acros.


The crazy sheet pricing of Kodak/Fuji will end in the discontinuation. There is no alternative. These prices are the classic resource to kill a product line with best profit, but also a way with no return.

They are killing all that, IMHO there is little doubt.

Regards

[faberryman]

We were talking about Acros.

[Pere Casals]

We were talking about Acros.

Acros also had it's captive customers. Some based their photography on it, a lot in Japan. And it has unique well known features for night photography.

All LF sheets form Fuji/Kodak are in the same process, 2x the ex-factory based retail cost, and when demand is low enough, a shot in the neck.

Very sad to me and I imagine that also to most, but these are the facts, and these are the news.

[Oren Grad]

Pere, please see your PM.