4x5 tripod for mountaineering

[Patrick Gauthier]

I've read a few posts here regarding acceptable tripods for 4x5, but none catered specifically to mountaineering where low weight is absolutely a necessity (if you're too tired to climb or climbing too slowly you have to turn back and wont get the shot).

I have been very "creative" over the past 1.5 years making a dolica proline work (it only 1.33 kg with ball-head but shakes like a leaf). However, with bigger and bigger objectives, I would like to be confident that camera shake will not be an issue.

I'm going to head to my local shop to test the suitability of various tripods. Your field tested opinions would be of great value in addition to the in-store testing.

My needs are:
A tripod + head kit that weighs between 1.4 - 1.8 kg.
A tripod with maximum height around 62" (would be nice to have the option to stand up and shoot when its safe).
A tripod that will not shake in 10-30 kph winds (in high winds I will be kneeling with little tripod extension)

My mountaineering kit:
Wista DX rosewood (2kg)
Nikkor-M 300mm f/9 (0.290kg)
Nikkor-M 200mm f/8 (0.18kg)
Fujinon SW 90mm f/8 (0.407)

With film holder and filters max weight on the tripod would be <3kg.

An example of a suitable design would be the Gitzo GT1532 series 1 Carbon Fiber. Would the series 1 legs be stable enough?
A cheaper alternative would also be nice.

Patrick

[xkaes]

How do YOU define "mountaineering" and how long, timewise, are your treks? It sounds like carbon fiber would be the logical choice. I assume that there are several options from different manufacturers, and that you will be fighting a weight vs price vs stability battle. Like much in life, something has got to give -- which is completely your call. My experience has been that in high wind on a high ridge, there is NO tripod that is rigid enough.

[John Layton]

A neat accessory to help stabilize a lightweight tripod is a "weight hook" mounted on the bottom of the center column. I use this (on my lightweight Feisol CF) in two ways...one being to hang a string bag then place a nearby rock inside this, and the second to drive a tent stake directly underneath and then join the hook to the stake with a tightened, slightly stretchy nylon cord.

[MAubrey]

Does your current tripod have an anchoring hook? I use paracord and tarp weighed down with rocks until the weight holding the tripod down is 20 to 30lbs. But I also use a carbon fiber tripod, which also contributes to rigidity with the weights.

[xkaes]

A simple solution is to simply drape the shoulder strap of your camera bag over the tripod head and legs. In my case that adds 25 pounds of stability without having to find rocks, move them, find something to put the rocks in, etc.

[B.S.Kumar]

Talk to Ari.

Kumar

[Patrick Gauthier]

All good ideas. One issue I have with the anchor hook is that when I'm setting up lower down, the weight (i.e, my pack|f-stop lotus) ends up touching the ground and provides less and less benefit, and when I am shooting at minimum height, it simply doesn't fit under the tripod (the dolica proline has camera shake even when set up at minimum height). In addition my pack is necessarily my camera bag, and I need to access things from it right up to grabbing my film holders, and I prefer if it's not dangling from the pod (this is a bit of personally preference as well as sensible precaution to not lose anything to the mountain as the bag tends to rotate when I'm accessing things).

Like I said, I've been "creative" and rather successful at stabilizing a generally unstable tripod, but there are certain limits and distances I'm willing to go to, especially when personal safety is a concern.

[Peter Lewin]

Talk to Ari.

Kumar

+1. Look up "Ari" in the forum member list. He is the importer of FLM tripods and heads for Canada (and I think the U.S. also). I have the FLM-Traveler tripod which is around 1.2 kg, and while I don't own one yet, the FLM-CB38FTR ballheads adds about another .5 kg, bringing the total just under your 1.8 kg target. The FTR heads, while nominally ballheads, work like 3-ways, making them better for view cameras. Anyway, Ari is incredibly helpful, so send him a PM.

[Alan Gales]

Ari is the North American distributer for FLM products. That includes Canada and the United States. I've had the pleasure of meeting Ari and playing with one of the FLM tripods. I was very impressed with both Ari and the tripod. You won't find a nicer, more knowledgeable fellow to talk to. Here is his FLM website.

http://www.flmcanada.com/contact.html

[Roger Thoms]

+1. Look up "Ari" in the forum member list. He is the importer of FLM tripods and heads for Canada (and I think the U.S. also). I have the FLM-Traveler tripod which is around 1.2 kg, and while I don't own one yet, the FLM-CB38FTR ballheads adds about another .5 kg, bringing the total just under your 1.8 kg target. The FTR heads, while nominally ballheads, work like 3-ways, making them better for view cameras. Anyway, Ari is incredibly helpful, so send him a PM.

Definitely check out the FLM Traveler, I own one with the CB38FTR ballhead. I use it with my Chamonix 45 and everything smaller, works great and very high quality.

Roger

[Jerry Bodine]

Another thought for stabilizing: Add a small-link chain (either nearly weightless plastic, or metal if concerned about breaking in cold climate) to your kit. Place an S-hook in each end link. Wrap one end around the tripod's spider platform and hook to a link (or use the column's hook if there is one). Let the chain hang down so you can create a stirrup under your boot, using the same technique as at the upper attachment. The height of the stirrup above ground is then adjustable; it should only need a slight ground clearance. You can then press downward with your boot to stabilize the tripod and there's no need to go looking for rocks. Stretchy cords are not as effective as chain links. The length of chain needed to satisfy your highest tripod use can be determined at home prior to heading out. Hope this is all clear; it's easier done than said.

[xkaes]

I'm amazed by all the time-wasting antics you guys and gals have come up with. Apparently, you have never read about Ansel Adams' and "Moonrise, Hernandez": http://anseladams.com/ansel-adams-anecdotes/. I know that large format is slower than other formats, but by the time you "get everything together", the "picture" might well be gone.

[Jerry Bodine]

xkaes - I HAVE read about AA's Moonrise experience, several versions in fact, and none mention a challenge with wind. Had he been faced with that challenge, I think his chances of success would have plummeted to zero. Dealing with wind - and its sometimes shifting direction - requires some ingenuity for large format users. Most solutions require forethought and planning plus a finite amount of time to implement when needed. If you’ve found your “camera bag & shoulder strap” works for you, that’s great. I’m sure it’d work if shooting with a bellow-less “pea shooter”, but wind and bellows usually don’t go together well. My offering takes just about a minute to set up. I know from past decades LF work in snow-covered mountaineering environments that two factors most in need of attention are: 1) wind on the bellows and 2) tripod settling in the snow and screwing up composition. I could stomp on the snow and compact it under each tripod foot to help with that problem, but I never did solve the shifting wind thing – have you?

[xkaes]

I was not referring to Moonrise as being a "wind" issue. It was, however, a "time" issue. If AA had to fumble around looking for rocks or whatever, he would have lost it. I've been there in wind and without. Sometimes you don't have time to "screw around".

And I agree with you on the wind-bellows issue. There have been plenty of times, as I mentioned earlier, that the most stable tripod in the world would not solve the bellows problem. The only, partial, solution is to stand between the wind and the bellows and use the shortest lens you can bare with the shortest shutter speed and fastest film.

FYI, if you ever find yourself in the middle of Great Sand Dunes National Park, you better not waste your time looking for a rock or anything to stake down your tripod. It's usually pretty windy there -- that's why the sand dunes are there. It's simply you and your gear. My approach takes about two seconds to "set up" and saves time trying to find/adjust things. Every thing I need is right between my knees.

[Patrick Gauthier]

Coming back to the original theme, xkeas which tripod(s) have you brought the the middle of the Great Sand Dune National Park, and if you've done any mountaineering, which tripod(s) did you use?

[xkaes]

Coming back to the original theme, xkeas which tripod(s) have you brought the the middle of the Great Sand Dune National Park, and if you've done any mountaineering, which tripod(s) did you use?

My tripod is a Gitzo Reporter Performance with a Gitzo #2 275 ballhead -- bought well before carbon fiber hit the market. It has been to the Great Sand Dunes several times -- obviously off-trail. It has also been across the Continental Divide from Canada to Mexico -- too many times to remember. In the Wind River Range of Wyoming, I have crossed it several times -- a couple in knee deep snow -- usually off-trail. It takes several days to get in there and get back, but they are the most beautiful mountains between the Canadian Rockies and the Andes!

As asked earlier -- check my first response to your question -- I don't know how "mountaineering" is defined for you. I call what I do hiking or backpacking. I don't need to try to glorify it. I am not a "peak-bagger". I am a photographer. I rarely go to the top of a 14er. All you see there are rocks and crowds. The more numerous 12ers and 13ers usually don't have trails, don't have people, and aren't just a pile of rocks -- most of which are too large to stabilize a tripod.

[Patrick Gauthier]

Good sir, perhaps you mistake me for a charlatan. :) Many do tend to glorify their activities. If you understand the difference between hiking/backpacking and mountaineering, than you already know the answer to your question. My website is included if you need further clarification. .

Trying my best to keep my kit <13 kg, which includes camera gear, safety gear, tools, consumables. etc, which is difficult with a tripod >2kg. The Gitzo reporter looks dreamy. I guess they've discontinued that product line.

[xkaes]

Maybe the Gitzo Reporter series is dead. I would be surprised since it was very popular. It is not light, but not as heavy as many. I like that it will go completely flat if the center column is removed, plus the center column is reversable, as well. I've taken many pictures with it in the middle of streams without problems.

And I don't consider you a charlatan or anything else. It's just nice to define terms before discussing the issue.

Here is a view of most of my gear -- ready to go!!!

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?138712-Large-Format-4x5-Camera-Hiking-Backpack-Question

[Patrick Gauthier]

aw man, seeing your kits makes me want to get out there and shoot! The custom rig you have on that T 600 looks real nice.

[Mark Tweed]

Patrick, I've carried a 4X5 system deep into the Wind Rivers and Tetons to heights of 12,000 feet. These are week long backpacking trips with days on end above timberline (10,000 ft). My camera is the lightweight Nagaoka and my lens kit consists of 5 compact lenses, a 75mm, 90mm, 135mm, 210mm and a 300mm. The last two are Artar-type designs, small and light and the two wides, are relatively compact, a Goerz Rectogon and a Rodenstock WA Geronar. The whole kit is quite small, about the size of a six-pack. The tripod I'm currently using is a Feisol 3401 with a 1lb vintage Gitzo 3 way head (0 series). Feisol makes even lighter tripods, a good choice would be the 3441T or 3441S. They are supremely rigid, relatively compact and tall enough to avoid using the center column. To additionally secure the tripod in breezy conditions, rather than hang a pack from the center column hook, I carry a titanium tent peg (.3 oz), stake it in under the tripod and use a very thin tent cord with an adjustable tensioner to create an extremely tight secure guy line to ground. The guy line essentially does away with any tripod vibrations. Above timberline it's usually windy, so employing this guy line provides additional security. A bellows camera as we all know, is essentially a sail atop the tripod. If I don't have soil to pound the stake into, I have a loop in the guy line that I can secure around a substantial rock.

There are a number of lightweight ball heads in the 3/4 lb range, but I prefer a 3 way head for its precise adjustment in each plane. Besides owning two vintage Gitzos that come in exactly at pound (which includes a quick release plate system) I also have a compact 3 way Manfrotto head (model 3437) that weighs in at 1 lb. All three of these heads provide the required rigidity for a typical 4X5 field camera. With a lightweight carbon fiber Feisol and an suitable head, you can have an ultra rigid rig that comes in at 3 3/4 lbs. You could even consider removing the adjustable center column and mount your head directly to the top of the tripod (Feisol makes a simple plate with the 3/8 mounting screw and a hook positioned underneath) to save even more weight and further minimize vibrations.

[xkaes]

This time of year I am normally not anywhere near the mountains here in the West, but it is a great time for the amazing Canyon Country of the American Southwest and Northwest Mexico. I've backpacked into Mexico's Barranca country of the Sierra Madre Occidental a few times. The lastest complex, Copper Canyon, is four times larger than the Grand Canyon and 2,000 feet deeper. But I won't go there anymore. The native Tarahumara Indians, who live in caves in the canyon walls, are very timid and not a problem. The only "obstacle" there is that, although I speak Spanish, it is of little use with them because they only speak Tarahumara. I have yet to see an English-to-Tarahumara dictionary -- probably because most native languages are not written languages. The real problem is that outside drug operations have a lot of illegal pot plantations there with armed guards -- and it is difficult to outrun a bullet in a canyon with a 60 pound pack.

Anyway, I've been to many beautiful canyons over the years, in the US, as well. The King, the Grand Canyon, is basically a mountain upside down. Climbing down it and back up is much more work that any mountain I have climbed. Going down is easy, but getting back up is usually done late in the day, and you have to carry ALL of your water. I just call it hiking or backpacking. Some people call it "Canyoneering" instead of just hiking or backpacking, for some reason. But it, and other canyons, can be too crowded for my taste. In the GC, and other parks, monuments, and wilderness areas of the SW, you need to get a permit to camp. They strictly limit the number of people and you have to camp in designated, marked, spots. In the most popular spots in the Grand Canyon or Canyonland Nationa Park, you have to wait TEN YEARS to get a permit. PLUS, you have to prove to the backcountry rangers -- who assume you are a complete idiot -- that you know what the hell you are doing, because there is no way that they can find you, let alone save your sorry ass if there is a problem. I simply pick the areas where I know no one wants to go -- typically because they are long, hard hikes -- and you have to carry ALL your water. So a 40 pound pack becomes two hikes or an 80 pound pack. My top pick? The Powell plateau and the North Bass (non-maintained) "trail" down to the River. No water and a 45% incline (or more) all the way, on loose gravel. But you will have the place to yourself. FYI, you can't get in during the Fall, Winter, or Spring because they don't plow the roads and it's twenty miles down a jeep trail to the trailhead. Bring a handsaw to cut down the trees that fell down during the Winter. Don't go in the Summer because it is WAY too hot. The only times to go are late Spring/early Summer -- but watch out for the fierce afternoon lightning storms -- or Late Summer/early Fall -- but watch out for the numerous pink rattlesnakes that blend in with the rocks.

As to my 600mm T Fujinon, here are some details on how I did it:

http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/mygear.htm

[Two23]

A couple of weeks ago I bought a Feisol 3441T tripod for use with hiking/airline travel. It brings the camera up to eye level WITHOUT a center column. (Came with column but I replaced with short column.) It's four section, folds to just under 19 inches, and weighs 1.2kg. I use it with a Photoclam PC-40NS ball head. So far I like it. I'd rather have a BH-30, but don't want to spend the money on something I plan on using occasionally. I bought it to hold my Nikon D800E plus Nikon 80-400mm AFS, which it does well enough. It easily holds my Chamonix 045n. It's not as sturdy as my Gitzo 1325 & AcraTech head, but for what I bought it for it will work.

Now for some thoughts. I too live on the Northern Plains. I know wind--the kind that blows highway trucks over sideways. In North Dakota the wind (not a tornado) blew a freaking freight train off the tracks. I have experience with wind. There is no tripod that weighs as little as you want that is going to hold steady in "real" wind. You will be doing well to be able to just keep it from blowing away. ALL of these little light backpacking tripods are going to shake in the wind, especially with a large format camera on top (and their blunt cross section.) You're just going to have to work around it. Sometimes I shoot sitting on the ground, tripod legs not extended much or at all. Sometimes I try to get behind something and out of the wind. I've been known to set up my tent and shoot from inside. You need to be realistic here.


Kent in SD

[Two23]

FYI, if you ever find yourself in the middle of Great Sand Dunes National Park, you better not waste your time looking for a rock or anything to stake down your tripod. It's usually pretty windy there -- that's why the sand dunes are there. .


Yeah, I've been there. Yeah, it was windy that day. Didn't need to look for rocks. I pulled off my hiking socks, filled them with sand, hung them on my tripod, and fired away.


Kent in SD

[Patrick Gauthier]

You need to be realistic here.

Kent in SD

Lets consider a high wind scenario. I'm going to say 30 kph, above that I probably wouldn't even consider setting up to shoot in an alpine environment.

Photographer A has lower quality tripod (Dolica proline) that has vibration issues with any possible arrangement of leg/centre column extension.

Photographer B has a higher quality tripod (Feisol 3441T) that has no vibration issue with any possible arrangement of leg/centre column extension (work with me here).

Both photographers have identical tripod heads (FLM CB38FTR), cameras (Wista DX rosewood), and lenses (Nikkor-M 300mm f/9) set-up on their respective tripods.

Each photographer sets their tripod up with no leg or centre column extension. Bellows extension is ~300mm.

Will the higher quality tripod legs make a difference in suppressing wind shake?

[Mark Tweed]

In any windy setting, your example being 30 kph (roughly 20 mph), I will always wait for a quick lull to take the exposure. All things equal, a more rigid tripod will shed its vibrations faster than a less stable one and therefore be less likely to affect the focus sharpness during longer (1/2 or 1 second) exposures. I've had little luck taking crisp images while attempting to take a slow exposure in continuously windy conditions. You could have your camera support bolted directly to a rock but the vibrations of the camera bellows from the wind will always introduce blur. In such conditions, small formats, box cameras and cell phones have the advantage.

[pjd]

With film holder and filters max weight on the tripod would be <3kg.

An example of a suitable design would be the Gitzo GT1532 series 1 Carbon Fiber. Would the series 1 legs be stable enough?


I've taken a Gitzo 1542T with a little Markins head trekking (not mountaineering though) in Nepal with a 9x12cm plate camera and a 35mm camera. The highest I got with it was about 5,500m. I think it was stable enough but I was only using it around dawn - when weather conditions tended to be calm. I didn't bother in bad weather! It's great in use, and easy to get around. I forget how heavy the plate camera is, a bit lighter than the camera you mention. The tripod has been around a bit with me now, Mongolia and South America, no problems despite putting a few miles on the clock - I don't regret having bought it, although it was expensive. I have used it in good conditions with an 8x10 2D, just to try out a lens or whatnot (don't extend the thinnest leg section - and forget about windy days).

The Markins head, I'm not so thrilled about. It's ok, but a tension adjusting screw used to bind up sometimes, until it finally dropped out somewhere - I didn't bother to replace it. I didn't like the feel of the Gitzo head. I took my camera to a shop to try the head before buying, I think that's your best course of action.

[xkaes]

Trying my best to keep my kit <13 kg, which includes camera gear, safety gear, tools, consumables. etc, which is difficult with a tripod >2kg. The Gitzo reporter looks dreamy. I guess they've discontinued that product line.

It's impossible for me to image a large format photographic backpacking trip -- even a short one -- through canyon or mountain country with a pack under 30 pounds (13.6kg). That alone is what all my camping gear (tent, sleeping bag, food, backpack, clothes, stove, fuel, pots, etc) weighs. My photographic gear (camera, tripod, lenses, film, filters, etc) weights about as much. If I were to add in mountaineering gear (ropes, pitons, carabiners, crampons, ice-axe, etc.) I'd need a sherpa or llama. I've hauled all my stuff down the Grand Canyon and up 14,000 foot peaks, but I'm no Galen Rowell -- but then some purists don't consider him a "real" photographer. I'm sure some alpinist has used a large format camera somehow, but I've never tried to track them down.

[Patrick Gauthier]

It's impossible for me to image a large format photographic backpacking trip -- even a short one --

Impossible indeed. There are so many single peak objectives in the banff, jasper, kananaskis area that don't require multiday trips though. When backpacking approaches are necessary, camping gear is left at camp.

[Greg Y]

" I'm sure some alpinist has used a large format camera somehow, but I've never tried to track them down." Vittorio Sella is your man...his accomplishments humble any modern photographer/alpinist.

[xkaes]

" I'm sure some alpinist has used a large format camera somehow, but I've never tried to track them down." Vittorio Sella is your man...his accomplishments humble any modern photographer/alpinist.

Thanks for the note. Sella is reminiscent of William Henry Jackson, large format photographer of the early American West. For some reason, neither of them were mentioned in the 16-week class on the "History of Photography that I took. Still, I got my money's worth.

One of the last photos OF Jackson is of him holding a -- what he must have thought -- a TINY Kodak camera. He lived to be 99.

[Jerry Bodine]

Patrick – I finally took a look at your website, and I must say you’ve generated much nostalgia here. I’ve made so many extended trips to your Canadian Rockies in the ‘70s that came gushing from my memory banks. But, unfortunately, at 82 the body will no longer obey my commands. I can recall every minute detail of the crowning trip – a 10-day traverse with a buddy of the Brazeau Icefield in ’74. Leaving our car at the Poboktan Creek ranger station it was off to Endless Chain Ridge / Coronet Glacier / Valad Pk. / Mt. Henry McLeod / Mt. Brazeau / Mt. Warren / Mt. Warren / Monkhead / and down to Maligne Lake. Then walking 4 miles IN the lake (because the shoreline forest was so dense it was shredding our packs) back to the tour boat dock at the Narrows. Hitched a ride on the next tour boat back to its base at the north end of the lake, then hitched a ride to Jasper for an overnight room rental & bath, a steak dinner, and hitched a bus ride back to the car (Canadians are very accommodating to mountain travelers) such as us. Then on the way back to Seattle it was up Mt. Athabasca for sunset photos and back down in the darkness that night. None of this was LF, as the pack weight was 82 lbs including rope and all the necessary gear for safe glacier travel . . . sigh! I’ve always gravitated to the snowy places, rather than “desert rat” country, but I have to file a complaint :D : your Canadian snow is so dry it doesn’t compact very easily under the tripod feet (not at all like our local mountains in the Seattle area). And it makes it hard to go up 70* slopes, too.

[Patrick Gauthier]

it was up Mt. Athabasca

Hi Jerry,

That trip sounds amazing. I plan on climbing Athabasca's neighbour, Andromeda, in late June.

Here's a shot of me in front of Athabasca's south face trying to explore the east arm. Shortly after this shot we were hit by a serious snow storm and decided to turn back.
164895

[Jerry Bodine]

...I plan on climbing Athabasca's neighbour, Andromeda, in late June...

Apologies for the major drift from tripod discussion, but I must say:
Ahh, Andromeda !! The year after the aforementioned trip, my buddy and I went up Andromeda from the west. There had been quite a few feet of your soft snow laid down with a fairly thin crust on the surface. On the way down I was a bit ahead of my buddy, moving very gingerly, and about every third step I'd break through the crust and be up to here in snow. It was so exasperating that at one point, after breaking through again, I pounded the crust with both hands. My buddy told me later how he thought that was so hilarious but didn't dare laugh aloud. He still tries to talk about it to this day until his eyes water laughing. Just some joy to recall. We've certainly had times when it was pure knee-slapping laughter together - one incident I was on my hands and knees laughing so hard (partially due to exhaustion). Good times!

[adelorenzo]

An example of a suitable design would be the Gitzo GT1532 series 1 Carbon Fiber. Would the series 1 legs be stable enough?

My lightweight tripod is a Gitzo GT1840C basalt. I can confirm that the series 1 legs are quite sturdy with a 4x5 camera and the four section legs are great for packing up small. It weighs less than 1.2 kg. Max height is only 44 inches so maybe too low for your needs. My problem with this tripod is not the legs but the head. I have a small lightweight FLM ball head that weighs 150 g and is rated for ~10 kg but in practice I find it hard to really lock the my Super Graphic down well. My super is totally stripped down so it's a pretty lightweight camera. The small head really struggles with my heavy-ass Fotoman 612. So I don't use this tripod very often. I need to find a better head for it.

My main tripod is a carbon fiber Gitzo 1227 Mountaineer. It only weighs 1.55 kg and is an order of magnitude taller and more stable. The problem of course is that it is harder to pack due to it's large size. Then you have my Toyo 3-way head that weights heck of a lot. This tripod has seen a lot of pretty rugged outdoor use in spite of the weight.

So, when it comes to hiking, climbing mountains, mountain biking, skiing etc. I generally either suffer with the big tripod or bring a camera setup I can shoot handheld. I'm still trying to dial in a lightweight 4x5 setup that I can work with but I think that the Gitzo legs are up to the task.

[Patrick Gauthier]

UPDATE: Based on advice/suggestions of many, I purchased the following:

FLM CP-26; CB-38 FII head, SRB-40 clamp, QRP-70 plate with two Q1/4" screws.

I thought I'd give a little review of the tripod to add to the content of this thread.

First of all, Ari from FLM was great to deal with. Ari included a few extras at no additional cost. The whole setup was very fairly priced as well.

Second, the craftsmanship is impressive. I'm especially pleased with the ball head. It's memory lock system supports the the wista DX (also a wista SP) and a 590g lens at max bellows draw (300mm). You can still freely adjust the position of the camera, and let go an it stays in place without locking it down all the way.

The two screws on the 70mm plate is perfect for the wista dx (which has two 1/4" screw holes). Never have to worry about rotating the camera around a screw after I've carefully composed my shot.

Legs are robust. As I was reminded by several in this thread, including Ari himself, it is a small tripod, and thus, not impervious to some vibration, wind shake, and bowing at the joints (bowing isn't an issue at the tallest leg angle though). 5th leg extension is quite thin, nonetheless at full extension the legs are superior to my previous legs in terms of locking the leg angle, not shifting at all in any plane, and reducing vibration.

Notably, as Mark Tweed pointed out, even a small improvement in terms of duration of vibrations is most helpful. Waiting 50% less time for the camera to stop vibrating might be the difference in stabilizing the camera between wind gusts.

I took it out for the first time this past weekend. Weather was hospitable with little wind, so not the best scenario to test the full capacity of the tripod. Every negative was tack sharp, no surprises in terms of the framing shifting ever so slightly. So far I'm very pleased.

166145166146166147

[Patrick Gauthier]

166139166140

[Ari]

Thank you, Patrick, for your kind words and positive evaluation of the CP26-Travel tripod.
We've had it tested with numerous 4x5 cameras, and it's done extremely well.
My next tests will be done by one of our ambassadors who shoots 8x10 wet plate and travels throughout North America for her work.
She needs something more portable than her large FLM tripod.

[mmerig]

Although Patrick has made his decision, there are other options that may work for others, so here are some thoughts.

When I saw "4 by 5 tripod for mountaineering", my first thought was "huh?" Then I looked at Patrick's website photos, and realized that my own definition for mountaineering is different, or at least I was assuming modest climbing on steep, exposed rock, snow and maybe ice would be involved, and speed would be of the essence (like no time for any sort of photography except quick hand-helds, and no hauling of packs up steep chimneys, etc.).

In this thread, some have mentioned W. H. Jackson, and this gave me an idea. With my own experience re-taking his photos in the Teton Range (for an ecological project), I've realized that he, or his assistants, took some photos while sitting with the camera on their knees or on a box. Jackson had a tripod, but duplicating some of his shots with one is extremely awkward. In steep mountains, not bringing a tripod, but kneeling, sitting, resting the camera on a pack or something (small bean bag?) would help solve the vibration problem. Also, some sort of binocular/reflex viewer, or a rangefinder, would make for quicker shots. Sure, it would be harder to use movements with a rangefinder or simple viewfinder, but when there is a lot of topographic relief, movements (tilt, mainly) don't usually work very well anyway.

Although I have used a 4 by 5 field camera with a tripod, ordinary film holders, and dark cloth for photos involving easy mountaineering or ski mountaineering, for anything more I think a Crown Graphic with a rangefinder and Grafamatic film holder would be more workable. You would have to be creative on bracing the camera in very steep terrain (where a tripod probably would not work anyway). My camera of choice for mountaineering is a Rollei 35 or a Nikon F3 , but for a better image, I wonder if a 6 by 9 folder with a good coated lens would be a better compromise.

Of course this thread involves tripods, but still, my main point is that a tripod is not a good idea in steep mountain terrain, with any sort of camera.

[Patrick Gauthier]

Your description is of alpine climbing. You'd have to be a mad man (or woman) to go alpine climbing with a 4x5 kit now that there are good digital options. Check out Jimmy Chin's work, and yes, he doesn't bring a tripod, it's just not practical.

Your main point is referring specifically to alpine climbing? It would be hard for anyone who shoots large format in steep mountainous terrain to agree with a blanket statement that tripods are not a good idea in that scenario. It would be pretty reckless to try and set up on 70% snow fields or hands-on sections. Much safer to wait until I reach a safe location, usually a col or summit. There is something to be said regarding my sanity in thinking it's a good idea to lug a 4x5 kit into those environments in general, but not bringing a tripod would be a mistake.

I've thought about a handheld rangefinders, but agree with you about movements and the process of framing through ground glass. I also almost always use red filters with light weight lenses with small apertures, so I wouldn't have the luxury to shoot handheld at the required shutter speeds.

[mmerig]

Regarding post #39:

Part of the problem or possible disagreement is the loose definition of mountaineering. Mine was too strict, and I agree that the activity I was describing could be called alpine climbing, or alpinism. But mountaineering could be a range of travel in the mountains, from scrambling over moderate terrain to difficult rock and snow, i.e., alpinism. Being more specific about the terrain you are traveling would have been helpful without using the vague term "mountaineering".

I am familiar with Jimmy Chin's work, and for some years he lived a few miles from me until he moved to NY. We had fun on the same local mountains -- Wyoming's Teton Range-- , but not together. All of the routes on the Grand Teton, for example, would still be considered as "alpine", yet, in 1898, on the first definite ascent, William Owen took a summit photo with a camera that we would call large format, probably whole plate. Of course he did not have much choice in camera size, and he was a little crazy.

Your statement "It would be hard for anyone who shoots large format in steep mountainous terrain to agree with a blanket statement that tripods are not a good idea in that scenario. It would be pretty reckless to try and set up on 70% snow fields or hands-on sections. Much safer to wait until I reach a safe location, usually a col or summit." is contradictory to me. The risk of taking a tripod is more dependent on the most hazardous or difficult terrain to be traveled on, not where the tripod will be set up. If the route involves "alpine climbing", where speed is safety, and minimizing weight and bulk is paramount, it's riskier to take a tripod, even if it fits in a pack and it will be used on safe ledges and such.

Even so, I see what you are getting at. So few people get into the high, snowy, steep mountains with LF cameras, so high quality pictures of dramatic terrain are rare and worth seeing. As I stated earlier, tilts usually don't work when the elevation range is high and ridges are close, but I think swings would be very useful when a steep cliff near the camera is included in a scene with more distant features, so a camera without movements would be sub-par.

I've done some LF photography with a tripod in the steep mountains in winter and summer, but the routes were easy - maybe some 40-degree snow and rock up to 3rd class.

The main difference in our approach is tripod importance. It's the first thing I would leave behind, and instead use creative ways of stabilizing the camera if necessary, but the downside of this is movement-use and ground-glass viewing become very awkward, so large negative "snapshots" could be the norm. Such images are what I see on your webpage. Very beautiful pictures of stunning scenery there, and I appreciate how hard it is to get the images that you have, especially the ones with dramatic clouds.

Maybe you can get by with a 2 by 3 baby crown graphic or a 2 by 3 linhof, use fast film, a yellow filter with contrast increase in the darkroom, and hand-hold it or use some other small, creative mount. This approach would increase speed and choice of terrain, and allow for more dramatic photos in complex terrain such as icefalls, narrow couloirs, etc. An orange filter is a good compromise -- good contrast in the snow, but letting in a stop more light than red, of course. Bradford Washburn took many nice photos in snowy mountains, and used an orange filter. Many of his early Alaskan expedition photos were with a hand-held 2 by 3 camera.

This thread is part of a larger issue -- getting the best image in steep, remote terrain with the lightest, bare-bones kit. There are fragments of this is many threads, especially on APUG, but I don't know of any that deals with it comprehensively. When I get time, I will start one unless someone else does it first.

[Patrick Gauthier]

Part of the problem or possible disagreement is the loose definition of mountaineering.

Yea for sure, and I haven't offered my understand of it in this thread. I don't really want to go into it because describing it wasn't the intended theme of this thread. My goal in using it as a descriptor was trying to emphasize the necessity for something compact and light.



So few people get into the high, snowy, steep mountains with LF cameras, so high quality pictures of dramatic terrain are rare and worth seeing.

Thanks, that quote captures my general goal. I've slowly become comfortable and successful shooting 4x5 in alpine environments, and now have several projects in mind that requires travel across riskier terrain, or more accurately, a combination of riskier terrain including glaciers, steep snow fields, and short (hopefully) sections of class 3 rock.



Bradford Washburn took many nice photos in snowy mountains

His story, as well as Vittorio Sella's, has inspired me quite a bit. I may end up playing around with an orange filter, but I find even the r25's are not enough most of the time, and I prefer the 091 that B+W offers. There is method to my madness, please trust me.



I am familiar with Jimmy Chin's work, and for some years he lived a few miles from me until he moved to NY. We had fun on the same local mountains -- Wyoming's Teton Range-- , but not together. All of the routes on the Grand Teton, for example, would still be considered as "alpine", yet, in 1898, on the first definite ascent, William Owen took a summit photo with a camera that we would call large format, probably whole plate. Of course he did not have much choice in camera size, and he was a little crazy.

Thats pretty awesome, would love to visit Grand Teton.

I do see what you're getting at. I'm just not ready to give up the 4x5 format. I enjoy the process too much, it's one of the main reason why I go to the mountains. There is definitely a limit, beyond which I'd just bring a small camera or even just my GoPro and not focus too much on photography as an art form.

[Drew Bedo]

Haven't read most of this thread so apologies if this is redundant or just so way off base:

Mountaineering . . I understand that term to mean extreme backpacking. .What about a Wanderlust TravelWide and maybe a very small table-top tripod or a monopod?

Light weight and simple.

[xkaes]

When I saw "4 by 5 tripod for mountaineering", my first thought was "huh?" Then I looked at Patrick's website photos, and realized that my own definition for mountaineering is different, or at least I was assuming modest climbing on steep, exposed rock, snow and maybe ice would be involved, and speed would be of the essence (like no time for any sort of photography except quick hand-helds, and no hauling of packs up steep chimneys, etc.).

Of course this thread involves tripods, but still, my main point is that a tripod is not a good idea in steep mountain terrain, with any sort of camera.

I agree with you completely. Mine was the first response to this thread, and the first thing I asked was, "It all depends on how you define "mountaineering". For some reason, I couldn't even get a half-hearted or half-baked definition. The simplest, of course, is "someone who ascends mountains" -- something many (probably most?) LF users don't do. But that definition can mean anything from climbing 1,778' Mullaghcarn Mt. in Ireland to Mt. Everest. Add in steep, exposed rock, off-trail, snow, ice, wind, whatever you want to the definition. Each element, including distance and time, impact what equipmet, including the tripod, you will/can bring. I've done all of that (OK, not Mullaghcarn Mt. or Mt. Everest), many times in different combinations, with a 4x5 and don't call myself a "mountaineer", "alpinist", or whatever term seems "sexy" or "macho". Someone who takes an extended trek down the North Bass "trail" into the Grand Caynon in 90 degree heat with a LF camera -- besides being crazy -- would probably not call themselves a "mountaineer" but would have many more issues than another shutterbug on the same day, calling themselves a "mountaineer", taking a day hike up 14,000', snow-covered Mt. Sherman in Colorado (and starting at 13,000').

[Patrick Gauthier]

This is pretty hostile xkaes. You must recognize how your language here is directed at me personally. So far throughout this thread you've referred to me as a "glorifier', not even "half-hearted" or "half-baked", as trying to be "macho", "sexy", or a "mountaineer". I don't understand why exactly, but maybe because you took offense to me not answering your question? I qualified my desire for a tripod with an activity, provided a straight-forward list of criteria for a tripod that would meet my needs, and requested fellow users to offer up tripod suggestions based on those criteria. That was the intended purpose of this tread, and it was a success evidenced by the numerous users who offered suggestions, eventually leading to me purchasing a tripod I feel is suitable.

Debating semantics was not necessary. Neither was the name calling or personal attacks. There are many other venues in which we can share our experiences and journeys through photography, and I would like to hear more about yours, but please don't take offense to me trying to narrow the scope of this thread to its intended purpose.

[xkaes]

I don't see how my simple question requesting a definition of the topic can somehow be seen as hostile. I'm afraid to ask you how you define "hostile". I didn't call you anything. You are the one who called yourself a "mountaineer" -- whatever that means to you. I offered my suggestions based on the nebulous non-definition that I received. You can call yourself whatever you want, but I'm obviously not the only one who was confused by your "as-yet-undefined" term.

[Patrick Gauthier]

I appreciate that interpreting online writing is rife with misconceptions about the writers intent. So perhaps your comments were not meant to be snide. I also recognize that the anonymity allotted to us online can allow us all behave more heatedly than we would face-to-face. Thus, I extended an olive branch requesting that you recognize your comments can be perceived as being directed at me personally. Regrettably, you chose not to respond in kind. There appears to be a canyon separating our understandings here. Perhaps there will be a bridge along the way.


I don't see how my simple question requesting a definition of the topic can somehow be seen as hostile.

Your question was not hostile, your snide comments were.



You are the one who called yourself a "mountaineer" -- whatever that means to you.

You assume because I enjoy an activity that I would label myself as such. I enjoy cooking, but do not call myself a cook. I enjoy photography, but do not call myself a photographer. I plan to enjoy the occasional mountaineering outing, but do not, and did not, call myself a mountaineer. You have snidely labelled me as such, among other things.

This is supposed to be a positive space, but unfortunately now this thread is contaminated with negativity. I would respectfully ask that you do not contribute more negativity to this thread.

[xkaes]

Proving what I always say, "You can't talk about photography without being negative".

[Drew Bedo]

Ta-MAY-tow Ta-MAH-tow . A rose by any other name still gets you above tree line and into the snow.

.What difference does it make in the end if it gets you that knock-out image?

Only the sweat equity gets you the view.

Remember that Doc Brown said, "Crampons? Where we're going we don't need crampons!". . . .or something like that.

[xkaes]

"Badges? Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges!"

[Arkasha_from_Russia]

For M300 you do use Gitzo 3 series systematic!

[Drew Wiley]

I've carried LF gear in the mtns for nearly 40 yrs now. How you pack things is very important, just in case you need to lower or raise you pack using a section of rope negotiating brief Class 3 pitches. For 4x5 work I have the very first CF Gitzo Mountaineer model, which has 3-ply tubing rather than the more fragile current 2-ply model. I never use tripod heads with view cameras, and consider ball heads to be the root of all evil. All my tripods have spike feet. For dayhikes I prefer Ries wooden tripods.