future of B&W

[Robert Choi]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159782,00.html

Kodak announced that they will stop producing B&W paper. We can hang on to any LF or Medium
format camera as much as we want, but will we still have the paper we can print on ?

What's the fuutre holds for film photographer ??

[Daniel Morgan]

There will always be a future for film photography.

Although the majority of people are switching over to digital there will always be people who prefer the look, feel, and process of traditional photography and there will always be a company that will cater to those people.

When I think about digital photography vs. traditional photography I see it as primarily a philosophical difference (seeing that almost anything you can do in traditional photography you can copy with digital.) One of the major differences between digital photography and traditional photography is the ability to make a completely irreversible mistake. Now, to many people this may not seem like an advantage, but I see it as something that is crucial in any artform. Because art isn't just about the final image, but about every step that goes to make that image, and about what can be learned about the human existence from the creation of that art (the artists perspective) or the viewing of that art (the viewers perspective) and nomatter how hard I try, when I look at a digital image I have a hard time connecting to it because I have had plenty of experience with both Photoshop and the darkroom and they are very different things.

I know I will probably get some harsh critism for this point of view (and I have in the past... most notably the Photgraphy professor at Skidmore College,) however I hope the digital photographers on this wonderful forum will try to embrace the idea of digital photography as simply a different medium. This in affect makes it better.

There will always be traditional photographers because for the people who feel this way they could never switch to digital photography, even if we are all pouring collodion on glass plates in 20 years. :)

[Alan Davenport]

What's the fuutre holds for film photographer ??

Film photographers have the same future prospects that tintype photographers had one hundred years ago. Enjoy it while you can.

[Mark Sawyer]

I have my doubts as to what the future holds for humanity in general...

For my own b/w photography, worrying about the present is worry enough. Perhaps I'd worry more if I thought it would do any good.

[Ross Hint]

Going to a practical world.

I want to know when Kodak stops producing B&W paper, what other brands that we can rely on. Ilford or someone else? Just imagine this happen today, where can you buy B&W paper now? Please advise.

[Janko Belaj]

At the very end (but before the end of the world;-)), when and if all factories world-wide stops with production of b&w photo paper, I'm quite sure that there will be emulsion(s) to buy. You will work with it in the same manner as you are working today with pt/pd process. And, after all, Kodak wasn't the first and isn't the last manufacturer of such products. Ilford, Fotokemika, Foma, Berger, Forte, Oriental, Maco... just to name the few of them...

[Donald Qualls]

If every manufacturer in the world drops B&W "silver gelatin" papers, I'll still be able to print B&W onto salted paper, albumen, platinum/palladium, van Dyke, cyanotype, gum, or carbon -- all processes that were in common use with glass wet plate negatives before Wyatt Earp got himself appointed Marshall. Even if film stops (or goes miles beyond my budget, which will probably happen sooner), there's always tintype/ambrotype/collodion and Daguerreotype.

[Alec Jones]

"What's the fuutre holds for film photographer ??"

I don't have a crystal ball, but I do see the English language is going to hell.

[bob carnie]

I agree with Mark on this one, I will concentrate on today and will let the global market decide the future. I will definately start coating alternative processes .

[tim atherton]

"I want to know when Kodak stops producing B&W paper, what other brands that we can rely on. Ilford or someone else? Just imagine this happen today, where can you buy B&W paper now? Please advise."

You don't ahve to imagine it - Kodak is stopping making B&W paper

[Michael Kadillak]

If you are truly passionate about LF photography, then you do not even consider the whims and fancies of the corporate world. It truly does not matter. Don hit the nail directly on the head - you do what you have to do to make images. W H Jackson as just one example, did so years before infrastructure even thought about a commercial venture and his negatives from the late 1800's are simply marvelous even by today's standards as are his prints.

I look at it this way. If you could go for say a month (or longer) without making images and it does not drive you crazy then do yourself a favor and sell your equipment while the prospects are still good and fine another hobby to distract yourself with. Go digital, make cabinets or whatever. Without the passion and the enjoyment that comes from the engagement of that passion, whats the point? All you are doing is introducing stress in your life that you do not need. This industry is far from dead but perception if the only reality. And you can tell immediately by responses to this question what kind of attitude folks have about the future.

Cheers!

[Wayne]

This industry is far from dead

there will always be a company that will cater to those people.

Rofl, you gotta love this kind of optimism in the face of reality! :) Ilford, Kodak, Agfa
are all struggling or drowning recently, but somehow the others will remain solvent despite the rapidly waning profitability. Dont count on it, IMO self-coating is the way of the future. We can thank our buddies who have all switched to digital imaging. Sensing photography's imminent demise, even more will do so now, increasing the rate of decline.

[John Kasaian]

Kentmere, Foma, Oriental, and Ilford are alternatives. You can also coat your own.

The only Kodak paper I've used since the Great Yellow Father in Rochester discontinued graded faber based paper is AZO. I'll stock up on it(it keeps darn near forever anyway) The same goes for aerial film, which is dated by the time I get ahold of it anyway. Michael Smith apparently has an alternative for AZO in the works.

I think the greater impact is on what this spells for the future of Kodak film and chemicals. Tri-X is my default standard. D-76 I can get from several suppliers like NACCO---a company almost as old as Kodak---but if Kodak isn't making paper, theres no point in Kodak making Dektol either. There are other chemicals and films that I use so even this revolting development isn't as bad as it seems.

I might look more closely at ansco 130, both a film and paper developer in one sauce---and I don't have to worry about Ansco disappearing---it already has (apparently several times over)---the stuff comes from Photographer's Formulary.

Alas, the only thing I think I'll really miss about Kodak pulling out of B&W is the cheery yellow and red boxes and envelopes.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Hi there,

B&W photography will out-last the British monarchy!

Daniel,

"One of the major differences between digital photography and traditional photography is the ability to make a completely irreversible mistake. Now, to many people this may not seem like an advantage, but I see it as something that is crucial in any artform."

You hit the nail on the head. It's the difference between an original A.A. and a digi-print at the sprawl-mall.

Wayne,

"Rofl, you gotta love this kind of optimism in the face of reality! :) "

China and India are the worlds largest markets and they are just coming online. They have their own silver supplies so they won't be hijacked by the precious metals market. Kodak bought a major share of 'Lucky' film in China, the other partner is China herself. Kodak has a century of R&D in the vaults but more importantly they have the actual production line recipe books on hand. I seriously doubt they will throw this away as worthless.

Just a few thoughts.

[Brian Ellis]

"Also, the only thing I think I'll really miss about Kodak pulling out of B&W is the cheery hellow and red boxes and envelopes."

I don't use Kodak paper either but I'm very interested in the future of film photography in general and black and white film photography in particular. So when Kodak totally discontinues production of all b&w paper after having been the major player in that market for over a century I get concerned. You can only say so many times "I don't use Agfa paper so I'm not concerned," "I don't use Ilford paper so I'm not concerned," "I don't use Tech Pan so I'm not concerned," "I don't use Kodak paper so I'm not concerned" until pretty soon there's nothing left to be concerned about.

I know that Kodak hasn't always made the best decisions, I know that its products haven't been 100% perfect, I know that its representatives haven't always displayed the best of attitudes but I don't see how anyone interested in traditional photography of any kind can look at Kodak's difficulties without being concerned, whether you use the particular discontinued product du jour or not.

[Daniel Morgan]

It seems funny to me that everyone laughs about the end of digital and makes comparissons to all the other processes that died off: collodion, tintypes, daguerrotypes, etc. But last time I checked there were still people doing all these processes. Some of them even seem to be growing more popular. And these processes can't really be compared to the current silver gelatin process because no where near as many people were making photographs back when all of those processes dissappeared. If there still is a market today in which Bostick & Sullivan can survive, then why not a company producing film and paper?

[Mark Sawyer]

"Kodak bought a major share of 'Lucky' film in China..."

Hmmm... sounds to me as though Kodak is moving jobs to China (albeit many are jobs they'd already moved to Brazil), and blaming digital. Wonder if we'll soon be shooting Lucky Tri-X and printing on Lucky Azo?

Lucky us...

[Daniel Morgan]

I meant end of "traditional photography" ... I guess digital was just on my mind

[jonathan smith]

I think it means that the few small dedicated companies who are committed to this will get a little more business, as Kodak and others drop out of this niche.

I say, support the smaller companies. I was thinking about getting a box or two of Azo, but now I think I'll get some Ilford Galerie and try some of the Berger offerings.

I would bet that Kodak will still offer some black and white, probably their b&w Portra which is processed in the color chemistry. I just hope they don't discontinue the Tri-X 320 for a long while!

[Joseph O'Neil]

I'm tired of "end of the world " senarios. A few facts for all of you:

1) A business seminar a went to some time ago talked about hwo buggy whip makers are all out of business. Not quite true. A recent news report pointed out that the physical number of horses in our local county is higher now than it was 100 years ago when everybody used horse and buggy instead of a car. Tack shops are *very* busy thank you.

2) Although mechanized carding and processing of wool has been around for a long time, there are dozens of specialty shops accorss the USA where you can buy hand carding tools for wool. Hand driven carders are still made today. Wool garmets made from hand selected and carded wool command a premium price.

3) along those same lines, I find that the most expensive products and services sold, are, in no particual order;
- hand built furniture;
- hand sewn quilts;
- oil painted or water colour portriats
..just some examples.

4) I live in the middle of the Great Lakes . All the local harbours are full of boats for summertime. Teh vast majority of them - especially if you are wealthy at all - are sailboats. The real status symbol is not a motorized boat, but a sailboat.
Shouldn't somebody tell all these people that steam power and gasoline fired engines replaced sails over 100 yers ago? :)

Am I the only one that sees an overall trend here? Let everybody go digital. Just makes what we do all the more valuable. You can still buy chain mail armour (didn't that go out of fashion a few hudnred years ago ? :), replacement parts for Model-T cars, - well, do I have to go on? We will - if not already - have a unique product. waht's wrong with that?

Kodak getting out of the paper business is most likely a good thing in the long run as it will allow smaller companies - Ilford, Bergger, Forte, etc, etc all to expand and grow into a larger market.

One last thing - the point everybody seems to be avoiding. John Sexton notwithstanding - as I repsect the man and he is 100 times better a printer than I can even ever dream of being - the point is - KODAK PAPERS SUCK! I mean it, they let thier best slide downhill ten years ago. I used to love thier Elite and Panlure papers, but the darned stuff, once exposed to air, would "grey out" on you if you didn't use it all up within a couple months. I have some Galerie and a few sheets of Portriga that have been in storage some time, some for years, and it works just fine - no greying out on me.

Being sad that Kodak is stopping B&W paper production is like crying over the fact that the Ford Pinto or the AMC Gremlin are no longer in production. This is something to be sad about?

Ten years ago I said to the people at one of the local camera stores that Kodak was delibertely killing off their best, so that the new emerging digital products would look good - nothing to compare digital ptints to if you get rid of all the best traditional papers, right? It is not conspiracy, just plain old Marketing 101. Frankly I am surpized it took ten years. How many of you used Kodak paper on a regular basis in the past few years? Not me.

I think the future looks bright. Sorry for the long rant, but I am just tired of allt he doom and gloom, end of hte world stuff anymore. Terrriorist are gonna get us all. A giant asteriod will wipe us all out. The flu pandemic is comming. Kodak is stopping B&W paper production. Dammit it all, even if the world is comming to and end in the next 24 hours, I don't care anymore, I'm going out later today with a dozen sheets of HP5+ loaded up in my film holders, and I am going to have a good time, torpedoes be damned and all that stuff.
soapbox mode = off
:)
joe

[Paul_5410]

Hey I thought the self-destroying Pinto had certain advantages!

No to be serious the large corporations will continue to consume each other and somewhere along the way sell off their equipment to a second or third tier company that will produce products for now. If not then groups like this will just have to form cooperatives to make their own bulk purchases and maybe even produce their own supplies.

Years ago it was possible to buy liquid emulsion that you could paint on to a surface. We may see that again and make our own glass prints!!! In any event I will most likely die before all the makers dump b&w forever.

Not very cheerful, Paul

[Wayne]

Kodak getting out of the paper business is most likely a good thing in the long run as it will allow smaller companies - Ilford, Bergger, Forte, etc, etc all to expand and grow into a larger market.
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Dude---sales are declining in double digits per year! The only thing growing here are some might heady fantasies. :-)

You are right that Kodak paper sucks-thats because they quit making most of their good papers years ago (with acknowledgment to those who think Azo is the cat's meow).

[Mark Sawyer]

Really, if there's enough of a market right now to keep printing-out paper in production and bring an alternative form of Azo back in production (as Michael Smith is pursuing), I think that, barring world catastrophe, there's enough of a market for mainstream b/w products that we'll have not only film and paper, but numerous options far into the future. (Then again, I'm predicting rotary-dial cell-phones will sweep the market...)

BTW, the fairly recent sci-fi movie "Minority Report" had an art-photographer still working in a darkroom far in the future. Don't know how many caught it, but it had to be a little statement from someone...

[CXC]

Yes, b&w supplies are drying up. What can be done about it?

1. Start up or buy a chemical plant.

2. Whine.

3. Give up photography.

4. Go digital.

5. Enjoy it while you can.

I'm opting for #5...

[matthew blais]

I heard Kodak was developing a film back for their digital cameras...:)

[Wayne]

Yes, b&w supplies are drying up. What can be done about it?

1. Start up or buy a chemical plant.

2. Whine.

3. Give up photography.

4. Go digital.

5. Enjoy it while you can.

I'm opting for #5...

Actually, whining is a very powerful tool for effecting change, if done to the right people in the right places at the right time. Dont underestimate the power of applied whining. Enjoying it while you can is fine, but like apathy, it gets nothing accomplished.

[Tin Can]

now i will watch that movie again

i do believe in prescience



Really, if there's enough of a market right now to keep printing-out paper in production and bring an alternative form of Azo back in production (as Michael Smith is pursuing), I think that, barring world catastrophe, there's enough of a market for mainstream b/w products that we'll have not only film and paper, but numerous options far into the future. (Then again, I'm predicting rotary-dial cell-phones will sweep the market...)

BTW, the fairly recent sci-fi movie "Minority Report" had an art-photographer still working in a darkroom far in the future. Don't know how many caught it, but it had to be a little statement from someone...

[Ray Van Nes]

I thought that ship had sailed long ago. I was not aware that they were still making B&W paper. Ilford is going strong and just introduced a new RC paper, then there is Foma , Adox and Bergger.

[Tin Can]

Lodima was made after this thread and is now gone

Let's consider the landscape again in a year

[Vaughn]

Well, in the past 15 years there are now a lot more photographers making their own film and printing materials.

For the most part, I have not made prints on silver gelatin paper since Portriga Rapid III went bad, then stopped production altogether.

[Oren Grad]

I thought that ship had sailed long ago. I was not aware that they were still making B&W paper.

Note that the thread was launched in 2005. That is indeed when the Kodak paper ship sailed.

[dwross]

Nothing could be easier than making silver gelatin printing paper, so there's that. (The exception [to date] is VC paper.)

[ic-racer]

Freestyle has over 300 listings for B&W paper, so no need to make paper at this time.

[dwross]

I'm not worried that B&W paper will disappear altogether anytime soon. However, the offerings are limited. The different listings are mainly different size sheets and package sizes. Some variety in surface textures.

No criticism intended. That they do what they do is wonderful. Every one of those companies is a treasure.

[Tin Can]

http://www.thelightfarm.com/

Is an evolving treasure

Thank you Denise Ross