Is f11 max practical in the field?

[Fr. Mark]

I may be able to acquire an f11 lens in a focal length useful for 8x10 (and maybe larger). But, max aperture is only f11. Most of my experience is with f5.6 lenses. I know I need a better dark cloth situation but going 4x lower light, I wonder if I will find it usable or how to focus in available light. It was a process lens used with several high wattage flood lights. One advantage of f11 is it weighs a lot less and takes up less space than my ff5.6 lenses. Thoughts comments suggestions?

[Vaughn]

It will be fine in most cases. Under the redwoods, it will be a little dark, but I have used an f/11 lens (24" RD Artar) a few times in that situation with success...my 19" RD Artar f/9 is not all that much brighter, and I have used it a lot more. My other lenses are 5.6 to 6.7 (not much difference between them) and are much easier to focus in the darker corners of the big woods.

But once out in the open, f/11 should be no problem. In darker situations, just give your eyes time to adjust and look along the path of the light coming from the lens for the brightest viewing. Of course, you test can it out yourself with any lens you have by closing it down to f/11 before sticking your head under the cloth. That will give you the best clue of what it will be like!

[IanG]

Like Vaughn I'd say yes, I have a Ross f16 wide angle, it's actually an Air Ministry unmarked Protar, very small it covers 10x8 and I found it surprisingly easy to focus. It helps having a good screen, my camera came with a Beattie screen and you may need a touch longer under the dark-cloth to let your eyes adjust but it's possible and f11 is one stop brighter,

Ian`

[LabRat]

I have found that with longer, slower lenses that they are still easy to focus, as the cone of light is being more directed towards the viewer's eye after the GG, so still easy to see across the frame of the GG, esp with a Fresnel, but more trouble when using WA lenses, as the cone of light is more acute...

Not a problem in good light, but much harder focusing in dim low contrast situations, or night photography... Stopping down to working aperture and focusing gets tricky...

Try one!!!

Steve K

[Randy]

Perhaps take one of your current lenses, mount on your camera and stop down to f/11 and see how it looks under your dark cloth. May give you an approximation of what to expect from your proposed lens.

[John Layton]

What is the lens in question? I'm asking this...as there are a few lenses out there that actually open up wider than their "rated" maximum aperture, to make focussing/viewing easier. A 14 inch Goerz Trigor I once owned comes to mind...rated at f/11 but opened to f/8. Nice feature to have...but do be aware, especially if its an older lens - that there may be a focus shift!

[Ken Lee]

The 450mm Fujinon C is f/12.5 and I've never had a problem seeing through it. Longer lenses whose depth of field is shallow are easy to focus.

[Fr. Mark]

Thanks all. It's a 450mm copy camera lens still on the monster copy camera with a 3 foot vacuum back... I should've thought to stop down one of my lenses as simulation. Good idea! With f5.6 I almost don't need a dark cloth in some situations. With f8 90SA on 5x7 in most situations I wish I had a dark tube with no light leaks or only small ones. I've been thinking that a more light tight dark cloth would bring big benefits to my photography.

The copy camera and darkroom would be a lot of fun for certain kinds of still life and macro work. Maybe I could work out an arrangement to use it in place, it would possibly be easier than creating a darkroom in my current temporary quarters. It is still ready to use except the automatic developer in the darkroom might be dead. But they have sink space and trays etc and tons of lith film and chemicals they'd give away to be rid of it. No one has used it in maybe a dozen years. The owner said he wishes his dad were still alive---he died 6-7 years ago---and he was the last to use it. The shop has all kinds of printing equipment going back to the 1920's. They just got rid of the Linotype machine recently to a collector. There are also a couple of plate burners which I imagine could be used for alt printing...

[Randy]

I have a 45cm Apo-Nikkor f/9. Stopped down to f/11 on 8X10 - still very easy to focus - and I have tired old eyes.

[Pere Casals]

Thanks all. It's a 450mm copy camera lens

Some process lenses are not Apochromatic, so should use a color filter to perform better.

Q-Nikkor and Process-Nikkor, for example: "Nikon does not claim that these lenses are apochromatic and does not recommend that they be used outside their usable range of magnifications."

http://www.galerie-photo.com/apo-process-nikkors-en.html

[Martin Aislabie]

Buy a good quality darkcloth and you should be fine.

I have a Blackjacket and I really like it - its very dark under there.

Martin

[Andrew O'Neill]

My Fujinon 600C has a maximum aperture of 11.5. I've never had any issues focusing with it under a BTZS hood. Nice and bright image.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I have a 45cm Apo-Nikkor f/9. Stopped down to f/11 on 8X10 - still very easy to focus - and I have tired old eyes.

That's excellent. My vision is so dim that I'm considering drilling the ground glass for aerial focusing.

[Vaughn]

That's excellent. My vision is so dim that I'm considering drilling the ground glass for aerial focusing.

That's why I like clipped corners on the GG. Very easy to check what is happening in the corners.

[Jody_S]

I have focused a 120mm f16 wide angle indoors without much trouble, but I have exceptionally good night vision so I might not be representative of the average lf-er.

[John Layton]

Just reread this thread...and want to make another suggestion - that you contact Bill Maxwell at Maxwell Precision Optics. I'm not sure what Bill does larger than 8x10...but he can certainly help you with the specifics of focal length/maximum aperture, viewing angle and overall screen brightness/contrast - and very likely offer you the best solution possible to address your specific needs.

[Thalmees]

I may be able to acquire an f11 lens in a focal length useful for 8x10 (and maybe larger). But, max aperture is only f11. Most of my experience is with f5.6 lenses. I know I need a better dark cloth situation but going 4x lower light, I wonder if I will find it usable or how to focus in available light. It was a process lens used with several high wattage flood lights. One advantage of f11 is it weighs a lot less and takes up less space than my ff5.6 lenses. Thoughts comments suggestions?
Hello Mark,
Used an APO Ronar 300/9. It was Ok even at late afternoon(well before sunset).

[Vaughn]

Just looked at my notes...judging by what I generally made my exposures at, there is about 8 stops (give or take a couple) of light between out in the open, and under the redwoods (usually between 10am and 2pm).

One might see a significant difference between a f/5.6 lens and a f/11!

[Michael Jones]

I have two lenses that are f18 at the widest. Not impossible to use in the field as they tend to have brighter centers, but the edges are difficult to confirm focus. I just stop down and have not been disappointed (other than my own mistakes), but I contact print and that gives me a serious edge over those who enlarge.

Mike

[Thalmees]

Just looked at my notes...judging by what I generally made my exposures at, there is about 8 stops (give or take a couple) of light between out in the open, and under the redwoods (usually between 10am and 2pm).
One might see a significant difference between a f/5.6 lens and a f/11!
Hello Vaughn,
I think the OP means the the lens speed, not the actual "f/stop" at which he/she photograph.
My apologies if I misunderstood your post, or the OP.

[greginpa]

Keep an eye out for a Ihagee folding cardboard chimney magnifier. it comes in a little slip case and fits in your pocket. it's spring loaded so pops open easily. There is a built in magnifier. You can put it on the glass and then press your eye socket angst it blocking out any light getting past your dark cloth. They are simply stamped Ihagee. 4 inches or so long. 1.5" x 2" straight rectangle. i think they date from the early '30s. It would be nice if someone came out with a modern version. The folding feature is really handy.

[Vaughn]

Hello Vaughn,
I think the OP means the the lens speed, not the actual "f/stop" at which he/she photograph.
My apologies if I misunderstood your post, or the OP.
Oh, my point is that an f/11 lens works fine out under the open sky. Now if it is just averages 5 stops darker under the redwoods, then trying to focus and compose at f/11 under the redwoods would be like using f/128 under the open sky...perhaps not quite that bad in reality because of all the brighter areas of the scene stand out...but the shadow areas get tough.

Under the redwoods I'll have large areas the register 2 or 3 on my Pentax Digital Spotmeter. In Death Valley, my darkest shadows were generally metered at 11, tho in some deeper canyons I got a 9 and an 8. When I closed down the lens on a desert scene, I always underestimated the actual f/stop. Being so use to the redwoods, I'd think I was at f/16 or 22 but I'd actually have the lens at f/45. But it is fun, too, working in two such lighting extremes. One takes the challenges and lessons from one and applies them to the other.

[Fr. Mark]

Hi, I'm the OP. I did mean the maximum aperture on the lens, but Vaughn's comments were interesting and helpful, never the less. I find I tend to under-estimate how much I need to stop down and the results suffer v. my expectations. I've taken a few LF photos that work at f11-16 range, but many work better for me at f32-128 though most of my lenses really only want to go to f45 (Sinar DB lenses only go that far, most of them). I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do with LF. I think it is heading mainly to contact printing around 8x10 but we shall see.

[Vaughn]

I am talking max aperture (largest opening possible), too, so I must not be making any sense.

If you are working in the dense woods, or in lighter woods early or late in the day, you will have problems working with an f/11 lens. It will be workable, but take more time and be frustrating. Is the lens in a shutter? My process lenses in barrels work great in the redwoods...almost useless without a shutter in Death Valley (I did not even bother to bring them).

[Randy]

Keep an eye out for a Ihagee folding cardboard chimney magnifier. it comes in a little slip case and fits in your pocket. it's spring loaded so pops open easily. There is a built in magnifier. You can put it on the glass and then press your eye socket angst it blocking out any light getting past your dark cloth. They are simply stamped Ihagee. 4 inches or so long. 1.5" x 2" straight rectangle. i think they date from the early '30s. It would be nice if someone came out with a modern version. The folding feature is really handy.Greg, for my 8X10 focusing I use a Mamiya RB-67 chimney finder. The opening is about 3" square and it has an adjustable eyepiece for distance from the GG, with a rubber eye-cup. It is perfect. I just removed the metal mounting bracket where it clips onto the RB and glued on some black felt so it slides easily on the GG.

[Pfsor]

It is perfect. I just removed the metal mounting bracket where it clips onto the RB and glued on some black felt so it slides easily on the GG.

Not so perfect as the distance between the gg and your loupe changes according to the pressure on the black felt and its thickness. A protective plastic sleeve glued on the same place would do better.

[Randy]

Not so perfect as the distance between the gg and your loupe changes according to the pressure on the black felt and its thickness. A protective plastic sleeve glued on the same place would do better....I have not noticed any problem focusing with the thin felt as a buffer. Perhaps if I applied a lot of pressure with my eye against the eye-cup...but I don't. Been using it for several years now.

[greginpa]

Greg, for my 8X10 focusing I use a Mamiya RB-67 chimney finder. The opening is about 3" square and it has an adjustable eyepiece for distance from the GG, with a rubber eye-cup. It is perfect. I just removed the metal mounting bracket where it clips onto the RB and glued on some black felt so it slides easily on the GG.

There you go. Sounds like a good solution. I suppose one could also use a folding screen from a TLR that has a built in magnifier as well if they hold together off of the camera? The reason I like mine is it is so light and pocketable.

[Michael Kadillak]

Since you need to stop down to f32 and beyond to truly evaluate your focusing plane don't over compensate or be afraid of it. If it starts getting dark at f22 but you can see linear improvement in focus on the stop down you deductively learn when it is acceptable to just go with it. If you need to get one of those new lightweight but very powerful LED flashlights and add that to the mix. Quite honestly it is really not an obstacle to the final result. When I bought my first camera (an 8x10) like many newbies I felt that there was some advantage to having a f5.6 lens so my first lens purchase was the 300 W Nikon. Took me a couple of months to figure it out I did not really need the boat anchor so the lens was sold and I have nothing brighter than an f9 optic in my 8x10 lens kit. For my V11 Deardorff I have a 30' Apo Germinar that is an f14.5 lens and I shoot it all of the time in low lighting conditions and it has never been a problem. I am far more concerned about vignetting particularly when tilts and swings are being deployed than minimum f stop.

[Fr. Mark]

In addition to having a working darkroom (2nd move in two years) and time and bellows on my field 8x10 I want to restore and a field tripod...a better dark cloth will help me a lot. I have a 300 f5.6. It is heavy! Thanks to all of you for so many thoughtful answers!

[Leigh]

The slower lens may be a problem if you check depth of field before you shoot.

I normally stop down to taking aperture (2 or 3 stops from wide open) to check.
With my f/5.6 lenses that puts me at f/11 or f/16, which is viewable but not bright.

If you shoot an f/11 lens, that puts you at f/22 or f/32, which will be rather dim.

- Leigh

[Michael Kadillak]

The slower lens may be a problem if you check depth of field before you shoot.

I normally stop down to taking aperture (2 or 3 stops from wide open) to check.
With my f/5.6 lenses that puts me at f/11 or f/16, which is viewable but not bright.

If you shoot an f/11 lens, that puts you at f/22 or f/32, which will be rather dim.

- Leigh

It does not matter if you start at f5.6 or f11 if you need to stop down to gain sufficient DOF for your specific image and verify the physical result on the GG to ascertain if it is truly "dialed" in. As a result I chose to not have to lug that heavy piece of glass around that you factually do not need. You should be able to qualify the precision needed in the image just by the placement of your film focus plane. Once you have precisely dialed in your two focus plane targets (near and far) pull out your new high lumen LED flashlight and shine it on your focus planes and it takes you about 15 seconds to do a couple of iterations of tilt and check and stop down and get your shot. Howard Bond has a tremendous primer on this topic. You simply cannot believe the lumination that the Fenix or other LED flashlights are now capable of so use technology when necessary. In 8x10 I rarely stop down less than f32 because I need all that there is at this f stop for sharpness on the negative. On 11x14 it is usually f45. The more you shoot, the easier it gets.

[Leigh]

The more you shoot, the easier it gets.
I've noticed that. The more you shoot, the more you learn.

I started shooting LF 57 years ago, so I must be a genius.

- Leigh