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ben_hutcherson
3-Apr-2017, 11:02
I know this is mostly academic since Kodak HIE is now gone and I never took the inclination to shoot it when it was around. I'm taking an interest in IR photograhy and have ordered some of the Rollei IR film which gives instructions to handle in "subdued light" along with a Hoya R72 filter. The latter pains me as I've never bought a new filter in my life, but everything I've come across says that the Rollei film must have a good R72 from Hoya or B&W. While we're at it, do Series VII to 72mm step up rings exist? I bought the 72mm R72 and filled in my collection of step-up rings, but I don't have one for my Speed Graphic with the 137mm.

In any case, I keep seeing references to how HIE must be loaded into the camera in total darkness. This seems a bit odd to me. Of course I load 4x5 in total darkness, but the backing paper on 120/220 is opaque and 35mm cans are light tight. If the felt light trap on a 35mm can is enough to fog the film, it would seem to me as though the felt traps on an MF SLR or LF holder light trap would present the same issue. For that matter, 35mm cameras use a variety of light seals, with many having felt in the back hinge area and either foam or a labyrinth along the rest of the back.

Are the reports of the sensitivity of this film exaggerated, or does it indeed need to be loaded in the camera in complete darkness? Along those same lines, it also concerns me with shooting in full daylight with the Rollei film on 4x5.

alexmuir
3-Apr-2017, 12:26
I've loaded the 120 Rollei film into a Rolleicord in subdued light, rather than total darkness, with no problem. You have to be able to see the arrows to align the start of the film. I load the 35mm in a changing bag to avoid fogging by 'light-piping'. It's not the felt opening on the cassette that is the problem, but rather the type of base material used for this film.
Alex.


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John Olsen
3-Apr-2017, 17:39
I load my 120 Rollei i.r. in as low a light as possible. The problem is that the leader isn't as easy to line up with the take-up spool as with Kodak films. I end up having to crack the darkroom door a little to see. I've also done it hunched over the camera in the shade and there were marginal light leaks along the edges. They didn't come into the image area, but I considered that as sufficient warning. (Note: the Rollei 120 i.r. comes in a plastic wrapper that defies ripping and biting. Have some scissors ready at hand.)

As for HIE - yes completely dark, unless you're got a way better changing bag than my old Ross bag.

EdSawyer
3-Apr-2017, 19:00
Hie is still around, you should seek some out and shoot it, it really is the gold standard. If frozen it will still be usable.

ben_hutcherson
3-Apr-2017, 20:00
Thanks guys.

I found some explanation on HIE as to lack of an anti-halation layer being part of the problem in 35mm since it could allow(as I understood it) the leader to act like a "light pipe."

My initial experiments with the Rollei film are going to be in 35mm, but it looks like I'll need to finally tackle fixing the seals in my Bronica backs. I get some edge fogging with one of them now, but it doesn't intrude into the image area so I haven't been overly motivated to fix it. Even in 35mm, I'll stick to cameras that I've re-sealed. BTW, there use to be a seller on Ebay going by the name "interslice" who sold seal material along with instructions. bought a big kit from him, but have used up most of it over the years and can't seem to find him now. Anyone know of anyone selling anything comparable?

I'll also keep my eyes open for some HIE. I found single frozen 2009 ex. rolls on Ebay for $40, but I have a hard time paying that much for a roll of 35mm film(my last Velvia at $12 a roll hurt).

LabRat
4-Apr-2017, 00:18
Thanks guys.

I found some explanation on HIE as to lack of an anti-halation layer being part of the problem in 35mm since it could allow(as I understood it) the leader to act like a "light pipe."

My initial experiments with the Rollei film are going to be in 35mm, but it looks like I'll need to finally tackle fixing the seals in my Bronica backs. I get some edge fogging with one of them now, but it doesn't intrude into the image area so I haven't been overly motivated to fix it. Even in 35mm, I'll stick to cameras that I've re-sealed. BTW, there use to be a seller on Ebay going by the name "interslice" who sold seal material along with instructions. bought a big kit from him, but have used up most of it over the years and can't seem to find him now. Anyone know of anyone selling anything comparable?

I'll also keep my eyes open for some HIE. I found single frozen 2009 ex. rolls on Ebay for $40, but I have a hard time paying that much for a roll of 35mm film(my last Velvia at $12 a roll hurt).

Some of the exotic film bases will "light pipe" as long wave radiation will enter the cut end of 35mm, and bounce through it like a fiber optic strand, and find perfs, edges etc to illuminate...

If you can't find a foam set for your camera, finding very thin black foam packing sheet material and cutting it up to shape (I found some as display/packing in the produce section of the supermarket), or go to the home store and buy a sheet of air conditioner black foam filter material and cut that up... The material has open pores, but will seal once compressed... And compresses well to fill gaps...

And if you can't reseal your camera right now, taping it sealed with black photo tape will get you through that (single) roll... And bring a little changing bag to change film in the field, but do it in the darkest place you can find... It's funny, because sometimes the IR film will fog while loading, and sometimes not...

Steve K

LabRat
4-Apr-2017, 00:29
Oh, and with IR films, only handle by the edges using latex gloves while handling and loading, as some films will imprint/develop a density mark if fingerprints or even very slight brushing your skin against the film... Strange stuff!!!

Steve K

ben_hutcherson
4-Apr-2017, 09:41
Oh boy, I can tell this is going to be a fun adventure.

Thanks again everyone for all of the advice. I do generally carry a changing back with me at least if I'm trekking out in the field. I've had occasions to reload 4x5 holders in the field(although I don't LIKE to do it) but it's also useful for an "emergency" like if you have to extract a roll of film from a camera that decides to stop co-operating and either won't rewind(35mm) or advance(120). That's happened to me very few times over the years, but the times it has I've been glad to have something.

BTW, my darkroom is a bathroom that I haven't made truly light tight(I stuff a towel under the door, but still have some leaks around the door frame). It works well enough for printing, and I load my tanks inside a changing bag. I'm guessing from what you all are saying that a changing back alone isn't a good idea for processing IR film. Hopefully a changing bag+my more or less dark room will be enough to get the film into tanks.

And, along those same lines, I use an ancient Omega SS tank for roll films and an SP-455 for sheet film-are those(room light) safe?

I'm hoping cotton gloves are good enough for loading film onto the reels-I dread trying to load a stainless reel with a "grippy" glove. If latex(or nitrile, which I typically use these days) is a necessity, I'll have to do the unthinkable and use plastic reels.

Andrew O'Neill
4-Apr-2017, 10:09
Handle film by its edges. Gloves are not necessary, especially cotton (lint!). I never wore gloves when I used HIE. Rollei IR is on an extremely thin film base. Wearing gloves makes it nearly impossible to separate a sheet from the stack. Wash your hands before handling to eliminate finger oils. I just finished developing 25 sheets that I shot in Japan a couple of weeks ago. They look great. All shot with 72 filter.

Jac@stafford.net
4-Apr-2017, 10:12
Hie is still around, you should seek some out and shoot it, it really is the gold standard. If frozen it will still be usable.

Ed, you have better luck than I do. I had five boxes of 4x5 HIE in the freezer since it was fresh. The first (and last) box had bad overall fog edge to edge. :( I'm encouraged to try again.

jim10219
4-Apr-2017, 13:48
I've shot Rollei IR 400 a bunch in 135, 120, and 4x5 and never had an issue with fogging. I don't think it's nearly as sensitive as some suggest. I don't even worry too much about loading it in low light (for 135 and 120). I just load it in the shade, away from direct sunlight and have never had any problems. I was also told that you have to keep it cool and be careful when handling it because the heat from your hands can fog it (which was from a camera salesman that I didn't really trust). But I've never experienced that issue either, and I've left it in a 120+ degree car on many, many occasions and have never seen it fog. About the only real issues I've had with it relate to the film base being thinner than usual, which can be a bit more tedious to load, and you have to remove the anti-halation layer first during development, which just adds a bit more time. Other than that, I pretty much treat it like any other film.

Jac@stafford.net
4-Apr-2017, 14:01
I've shot Rollei IR 400 a bunch in 135, 120, and 4x5 and never had an issue with fogging.

That might speak to how very sensitive Kodak IR was. An amazing film. Sorry to see it gone.
.

Andrew O'Neill
4-Apr-2017, 18:46
I am hopeful that something like it will come back one day.

EdSawyer
5-Apr-2017, 10:28
Jac do you still have any left? You can try restrainer if need be (benziatrole or whatever). Also, even with fog, overexpose it some and you should be able to print through it hopefully? I have some 4x5 HIE in the freezer now, will have to try it again someday soon.


Ed, you have better luck than I do. I had five boxes of 4x5 HIE in the freezer since it was fresh. The first (and last) box had bad overall fog edge to edge. :( I'm encouraged to try again.

koraks
5-Apr-2017, 10:37
I was also told that you have to keep it cool and be careful when handling it because the heat from your hands can fog it (which was from a camera salesman that I didn't really trust).
That sounds pretty far fetched. IR sensitive photographic films are usually only sensitive to 800 or 850nm. Thermal imaging for lukewarm objects such as the human body relies on the spectrum above 8000nm. The gentle warm of your soft hands will not fog IR film and you were right to distrust the camera salesman who came up with that story.

alexmuir
5-Apr-2017, 15:57
I understand IR sensitivity deteriorates more quickly than sensitivity to the visible spectrum. That tends to suggest that expired IR film will not remain usable as long as normal B&W film. I have some 4x5 Efke IR820 which expired around 2012. It has been refrigerated, but it's sensitivity in use today seems less than the same film I used when in date. It needs exposure around 1ASA now to get anything at all, and more exposure is probably required. When fresh, 4.5 ASA would have been normal.
Alex

Jac@stafford.net
5-Apr-2017, 16:58
[...] I was also told that you have to [...] be careful when handling it because the heat from your hands can fog it (which was from a camera salesman that I didn't really trust). But I've never experienced that issue either [...]

As you know from experience, the camera salesman was full of sh*t.
.

Jac@stafford.net
5-Apr-2017, 17:00
Jac do you still have any left? [...]

Yes, four boxes. When I find the time I will try again, this time in my 100% IR proof 4x5 (steel bellows).
.

jim10219
5-Apr-2017, 17:44
As you know from experience, the camera salesman was full of sh*t.
.

Yeah. Thankfully the internet is around, which is a great source for free education. Unfortunately there are only a handful of local camera shops left, and most have gravitated towards the "hard sell" method and are not really concerned with customer service anymore. This store doesn't sell IR film or process it (only C-41 in store and ship out for E-6, both in 135 and 120 only), so I think he was just trying to steer me towards what they do have.

Duolab123
5-Apr-2017, 17:51
I've loaded the 120 Rollei film into a Rolleicord in subdued light, rather than total darkness, with no problem. You have to be able to see the arrows to align the start of the film. I load the 35mm in a changing bag to avoid fogging by 'light-piping'. It's not the felt opening on the cassette that is the problem, but rather the type of base material used for this film.
Alex.


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Light piping, So now it makes sense, I've wondered about that for over 30 years. I just wish I had saved the empty box. I remember wanting to use two steam irons as "lights" I had a wratten filter for my Strobonar, I think I had dreams of becoming a spy

Kerosene Hat
5-Apr-2017, 18:31
I just developed my first couple of sheets of Rollei IR 4x5...a couple observations:

* Physically THIN film base and very prone to scratching (see below)

* Developed in a Patterson tank with a Mod54 and it fell off the Mod54 sometime during the process - retrieving it from the edge of the tank after fixing or hyp wash induced some fine scratches to the film. :(

* I loaded the Rollei IR in my Photoflex changing room (desktop tent) in room light, maybe even with some sunlight coming in the window - no problems.

* I don't believe Rollei IR is "true" IR - I exposed with a red filter and got a nice result. Shot with an opaque IR filter (bought off eBay for $30), corrected +4 stops from EI 400 and...zip, nada, zilch. Maybe I needed 8 stops correction, I got the filter factor from Wikipedia in the field...163494

Cor
6-Apr-2017, 01:09
Notes are at home, but I recall that Rollei IR surely will not "see"as far as Kodak HIE did, so an opaque filter is useless (as you discovered), I believe a normal red filter (25) is not strong enough (ie too much "normal" light will be passed through). I use a stronger filter (72) but do some googeling.

Next time pick a scene with trees and water, it will show IR effects much better.

Good luck,

Cor

Jac@stafford.net
6-Apr-2017, 06:02
I remember wanting to use two steam irons as "lights"

What a great visual! You made my day.

John Olsen
6-Apr-2017, 08:14
Shot with an opaque IR filter (bought off eBay for $30), corrected +4 stops from EI 400 and...zip, nada, zilch. Maybe I needed 8 stops correction, I got the filter factor from Wikipedia in the field..

I shoot Rollei i.r. 4x5 at 6 EI with a Cokin P007 filter or 3 EI with a Wratten 89B. The result is clearly i.r. in nature, but not as dramatic as with HIE. And you're certainly right about the thin base: it requires a careful touch. But keep experimenting and you'll be pleased.

Andrew O'Neill
6-Apr-2017, 09:47
Rollei is an infra-red film, but nothing like HEI. HEI stretched out beyond 900nm, whereas Rollei gets out to about 850. Rollei IR has an antihalation layer, which prevents that nice highlight glow that HEI would give you. In regards to scratching, that has never happened to me, although at first I had issues with its thin base when I first tried this film. I loaded two sheets, one on top of the other in the holder. Also, the interweaved papers drove me nuts. I see that in recent batches, they no longer do that.

alexmuir
7-Apr-2017, 01:51
Light piping, So now it makes sense, I've wondered about that for over 30 years. I just wish I had saved the empty box. I remember wanting to use two steam irons as "lights" I had a wratten filter for my Strobonar, I think I had dreams of becoming a spy

I'm struggling a bit with this. What do you mean?
Alex


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Duolab123
7-Apr-2017, 18:19
I'm struggling a bit with this. What do you mean?
Alex


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Light Piping, explains why Kodak marked the boxes of HIE with WARNING ONLY OPEN IN DARKROOM. If you look hard enough in the old Kodak books there was a picture made with no visible light of books on a shelf, the "illumination" was pure thermal IR from two household irons, I always wanted to try that. The filter on my Honeywell flash was a total visible light cutoff gel. When fitted to my 1971 vintage made in USA Honeywell Strobonar 772 handle mount flash, in the dark when you set off the flash you could just barely make out a dim red light.

I would like to know what Kodak sold to the DoD, I bet you could only open that stuff in a secure room in the basement of the Hawkeye Works in Rochester.

alexmuir
8-Apr-2017, 07:01
Thanks for that! I pick up these old Kodak books when I see them in secondhand book shops. I haven't seen that article yet, but will be on the lookout for it now.
Alex


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ben_hutcherson
8-Apr-2017, 07:07
Well, I did get my R72 this week along with a few rolls(no sheets yet) of Rollei IR. It's a nice sunny day and we are starting to get some foliage(along with nice green grass), so I'll see what happens.

ben_hutcherson
8-Apr-2017, 14:42
Well, the first round with 35mm Rollei 400 hasn't been developed yet, but I'll already call it a partial failure.

I loaded a roll in my F3, set it to ASA 12, and went to work just walking around in the front yard. I started off metering, focusing, composing, putting the filter on, and then shooting. I finally got tired of the routine so once I knew the general exposures I was dealing with I just parked infinity at the red dot unless I knew I was shooting something closer and "shot from the hip." I was using a 50mm lens, and I have 10 years of photographing here with a 50mm, so I can pretty well compose without looking through the viewfinder. I also shot a few "reference" shots without a filter using sunny 16 for ASA 400. I finished off the roll-probably with some junk, but I hoped with some decent shots.

In any case, I went back inside and started rewinding. I felt the resistance stop on the crank, so gave it an extra turn and popped open the back. I saw a bunch of film still on the takeup spool. I snapped it back closed and started cranking again. I thought I felt resistance drop, so I opened the back again and still had film on the take up spool. I couldn't get the can to take up any more film, so I guess the film broke or pulled off the center somewhere along the way. I ended up just cutting it and pulling about two feet of film off the takeup spool. I hope that I at least have 3 feet of usable film still in the can, but I'll see this evening when I start developing.

I'm thinking the next time around I'll use 120. Truth be told, I don't know why I didn't in the first place, but at least there I don't have to worry about tearing the film.

jim10219
13-Apr-2017, 18:48
I just had a thought. Rollei has the antihalation layer that HIE didn't. When you develop Rollei IR, you're supposed to soak it in water for a few minutes before dropping it in the developer to remove this antihalation layer first. Could you soak it in water first and then dry it before you expose it to get the highlight glow of HIE? Has anyone tried this? If not, I might give it a whirl one day, but I don't have a good way to dry the negatives in total darkness. I'd be afraid to hit them with a hairdryer (the heating coil gives off some visible light, and I'm sure more IR, which would probably fog the film), and don't want to sit in my darkroom (bathroom) doing nothing long enough for them dry. I also don't know enough about chemistry to know if this would ruin the film. It seems like the kind of thing someone else would have tried if it works, so I thought I'd ask.

Gary Beasley
14-Apr-2017, 18:16
I would worry the wash would also remove the sensitising dye. If you knew for sure it didn't you can dry the film on a developing reel using forced air heating the air remotely.