Using Surgical Gloves with Amidol and Pyro

[Gregory Gomez]

Greetings,

Which type of surgical gloves (e.g., Latex, rubber, neoprene, etc.,) are the most impervious to both Amidol and Pyro?

It's my understanding that not all surgical gloves are completely resistant to all chemicals.

For example, ordinary examination gloves will begin to dissolve on contact with lacquer thinner.

What should I look for to avoid chemical exposure to both Amidol and Pyro?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Best regards,

Greg

[lee\c]

I use Nitrile gloves.

leec

[Donald Qualls]

Nitrile is *much* better than latex for chemical resistance, and they don't cost much more (a few cents a pair when you buy a box, less difference than that by the case).

A wash bucket won't help you if the gloves leak, BTW -- the place you *need* the wash, between glove and skin, won't get enough water to bother, even if the glove has a hole that's letting chemical in. If you have an allergy or other reason to keep stuff off your hands (and pyro is good enough reason), wear nitrile gloves and either wear *two* pair, or discard and replace frequently -- every time you take them off for any reason, and every time you do something that could abrade or snag the glove.

Gloves are cheap. Being permanently locked out of the darkroom by a sensitivity isn't.

[Charles Hohenstein]

I've seen frequent references to nitrile gloves, but I don't have the faintest idea what they are or where to obtain them. Is nitrile some sort of plastic? Do they come in sizes? Are they made for medical use, or am I more likely to find them at a hardware store?

[william_3670]

Greg, do a google search for nitrile gloves, should answer your questions and give you plenty of links.

[Gregory Gomez]

Greetings,

I would like to thank everyone so far in responding to my questions.

I take darkroom safety very seriously, especially when handling poisonous substances like Pyro and Amidol.

In a workshop I took with Morley Bear, he indicated that among the old-time large format shooters in the Carmel area, there was some concern that too much exposure to Pyro could possibly lead to kidney failure. He indicated that wearing surgical gloves was a good idea.

I will be building my darkroom soon, and I plan to use both Pyro and Amidol when developing and printing my 8 x 10-inch negatives. Not only will I use darkroom exhaust fans that will give me a complete air exchange every three minutes, I also plan to wear the Nitrile gloves that have been recommended here along with a full-face respirator that will allow me to breathe outside air. This respirator is the one often used in auto painting shops and usually costs about $575.

As for where to find the Nitrile gloves, I came across the following URL:

http://www.gemplers.com/keywords/nitrile-gloves.asp

Best regards,

Greg

[Paul Butzi]

One more vote for nitrile gloves.

[Brian Ellis]

Photographer's Formulary sells several different types of gloves. I don't remember exactly what material they are but I used them for years with different chemicals, inlcuding pyro and Amidol, and never had a problem. When I investigated Nitrile gloves a few years ago the places I found sold them only in huge quantities, more than I'd likely need in a lifetime. Perhaps I missed places that sold in smaller quantities. The nice thing about Nitrile, from what I've read, is that you can actually dry them off so that they don't have to be removed when handling dry film or paper as you do (or as I did) with other materials.

[darter]

Try nitriledirect.com, or med-express.com. Less than $5 per box of 100 disposables. These are decent and just as good as the ones sold for $13 per box by the photo stores.

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

You can find nitrile gloves at safety supply stores like Vallen supply. They are commonly used in the environmental field and are sold very cheap in boxes of 100 or more.

[Geary Lyons]

"full-face respirator that will allow me to breathe outside air. This respirator is the one often used in auto painting shops and usually costs about $575. "

Surely you are kidding? Have you ever spent any time at all wearing a full face respirator? Unless you are so sloppy that every wall of the DR will be dripping in pyro and/or amidol, this is a bit "over-the-top". You are not planning to develop film or paper using the HVLP gun method are you? For modern isocyanate paints atomized, this makes absolute sense, but pyro or amidol in trays or drums?

The danger is the dry chem's. Wear your gloves. Wear a standard dust mask or filter respirator to mix, if you feel you must. Don't bathe in your developer. Basic common sense in handling photo chems is all you need, that is, unless you are a "wanna be" hazmat clean-up crew member ;-)!! Use that $575 for something useful!!

Cheers,
Geary

[David A. Goldfarb]

If you order supplies from B&H, they sell them too.

[Michael Gordon]

I wear nitrile gloves with pyro. You can get them at any Home Depot in addition to the sources already mentioned.

[Donald Hutton]

I can just imagine my wife's reaction if I emerged from the bowels of our house wearing a full-face respirator....! However, if she found out that I had spent $600 on it, I'm certain that she'd insist that I wear it 24/7 to get full value out of it.

[Gregory Gomez]

Geary,

I already have a heart condition, so I have to be very careful. Also, I am very sensitive to fumes of any kind. For example, when I clean my bathroom, I have to wear a respirator so I am not affected by the chemicals, such as bleach.

By the way, I do own a HVLP gun. : > }

Best regards,

Greg

[Gregory Gomez]

Okay, maybe it's just me.

I already own a very good respirator that I bought from Home Depot, and it doesn't seem to do a very good job at blocking chemical fumes, even for a short duration.

Now, it won't be uncommon for me to spend up to eight hours in my darkroom, which will be a somewhat confined space when it's finished. If I am not careful, breathing fumes for that period of time will give me chest pains for sure.

You know, I am no longer a spring chicken, so maybe I need to be a little more careful than the average. Maybe it's better being a scared chicken than a dead duck?

[Geary Lyons]

Greg,
Actually, I understand. I have restored, including painted, a couple of old sports cars. Wearing the respirator for even half an hour in a paint booth is, for me, just plain miserable. But if that is what you have to do to work in the DR, my hat's off to you for the perseverance!

Although we will all reach the dead duck stage, no sense in buying a "FastPass"!!

Cheers,
Geary

[phil sweeney]

You can get nitrile gloves at a pharmacy. I get tight fitting ones for handling negatives and larger ones for general use mixing etc.

[Donald Qualls]

And to answer a question that didn't get covered above -- nitrile is a synthetic rubber compound with much greater resistance to chemicals and petroleum oils than natural latex. The bad news is, it's also much less flexible than latex in its pure form, so it's common to mix the two -- the higher the percentage of nitrile in the mix, the greater the resistance and the lower the elasticity. Fortunately, gloves don't require a huge amount of elasticity (though you might have to buy a couple boxes before you get the right size for a good fit, snug but not so tight as to be difficult to put on).

I recommend "lightly powdered" gloves; these are coated with talc or corn starch, which acts as a lubricant and greatly simplifies putting the gloves on, and I also suggest choosing a size that's snug enough there's no wrinkling or "puddling" of the material around the fingers -- you should be able to feel a dime with the gloves on and call it for heads or tails (assuming you can do that with bare fingers, of course).

Also, FWIW, a significant fraction of the population is allergic to *latex* -- and almost none of those have problems with nitrile.

[paulr]

"I already own a very good respirator that I bought from Home Depot, and it doesn't seem to do a very good job at blocking chemical fumes, even for a short duration."

the issues are the fit around your face (does it leak air around there?) and the type of cartridges. there are a million different kinds of cartridges designed to filter out different kinds of toxins. it would be worth talking to an industrial safety exptert do determine what to get. at minimum for photo you'd need one dust and mist, and acid vapors. Not sure what else, but there's a whole laundry list of options.

[Alan Babbitt]

"Nitrile is *much* better than latex for chemical resistance..."

I'd like to clarify that. Nitrile is somewhat better than Latex for resisting some chemicals, while Latex is better with other chemicals, including Sulfuric Acid, MEK and Acetone. Reference (http://www.safeskin.com/ChemResist/search.asp?o=1)

For typical darkroom chemistry, either type of glove should be OK. Even though I don't have any sensitivity to darkroom chemicals, I always wear gloves when I have to touch chemicals, such as when tray developing or toning. I tend to favor the Nitrile Gloves, but it may be because the Nitrile gloves I have are 8 mils thick and the latex gloves I have are 4 mils thick. Either way, I definitely recommend the thicker glove as it provides far superior tear and puncture resistance as well as increased chemical resistance with an insignificant loss of tactile sensation.

You can get either type of gloves by the box at McMaster-Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com) or Lab Safety Supply (http://www.lss.com).

[Jim_3565]

I buy them at Loewe's. They sell them in packages of 15 for about $3.00.

[Antti Aalto]

Just a tip about testing gloves. Instead of dip testing, pour the chemical in the glove and see how long it takes for the stuff to start coming through. That minus some for safety is the time you've got to take the glove off after exposure. The disposable gloves you get are made to protect you from spills, not to allow you to work with your hands immersed in the liquids.
Not to sound patronising, but a lot of people, once they've got the gloves on, they tend to forget where they should and shouldn't touch with developer on their fingers. If you need to be sure, don't contaminate those taps and tweezers you're going to be using without gloves as well.

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

the issues are the fit around your face (does it leak air around there?) and the type of cartridges.

This is good advice, specially on the fit. You should not have a beard, stubble or long sideburns. Also you have to keep in mind that cartridges do no last indefinitly, they have a shelf life once they have been opened.

An organic gases/acid vapors combination cartridge is more than enough protection for chemicals in the darkroom, but I cannot stress enough that the cartridges have to be replaced at least every 24 hours or after 8 hours of continuous use. As you can see this can become very expensive.
Another thing you have to consider is the load on your heart from using the respirator. I worked for 10 years in the haz waste/remediation field and every year we had a pulmonary capacity/ heart load test. It is not easy to breathe with these respirators and if you have a heart condition this might do you more harm than good.

Finally if you do a search you will see we have had lenghty discussion on this topic in this forum as well as APUG. As a chemist who worked in the haz waste field I can tell you that IMO I think you are over reacting a little. The mayor exposure to pyro occurs when you are mixing it from scratch, once it is mixed the developer is in such small concentrations in working dilutions that for all practical purposes it is negligible. If you are concerned with the mixing, just buy it in solution and avoid all the hassles.

Good luck.

[Bill_1856]

I don't believe there's any convincing evidence that either of these chemicals is poisonous if exposed through skin (either in terms of morbidity or mortality). Although caution certainly seems prudent, but making a fetish out of it is silly. The Amidol will turn your fingernails brown, though.

[Aaron van de Sande]

Amidol is used (particularily in asia) to dye hair. Pyrogallol is in oak leaves. Gloves and a little common sense are more than enough precaution.

[Wayne]

Amidol is used (particularily in asia) to dye hair. Pyrogallol is in oak leaves.

Well those are two rather pointless factoids.



Gloves and a little common sense are more than enough precaution.

I agree that a mask is overkill. Personally if I was that worried about using the chemicals I wouldnt use them at all. And I've somehow managed to get by without using either, so far.

[Gregory Gomez]

I think everyone's sensitivity to darkroom chemicals is going to vary. For some, exposure to Amidol and Pyro fumes will be negligible. For others, it might be of greater concern and discomfort. Only personal experience can give us a true indication of our level of sensitivity.

My concern is about long-term exposure and its effects on the body, principally cancer and the possibility of kidney failure. Occasional and incidental exposure is less of a problem than repeated and prolonged exposure. For me, I feel more comfortable erring on the side of considerable caution. At 53 some of my friends have already died of cancer, albeit breast cancer. But in one of these cases, the woman led a reasonably health lifestyle.

As for wearing a respirator, I already do that with my work with pastel chalk. I scrape the pastel colors on matte board and use a brush to build up color and density in creating abstractions. The chalk dust literally gets everywhere, and the respirator blocks these particles quite effectively. I also wear latex gloves to eliminate any absorption of the material through the skin. I feel very comfortable wearing these protective devices for up to five hours at a time. Yes, it's slightly uncomfortable, but it doesn't seem to bother me that much.

The full-face respirator I am considering looks better made and more comfortable to wear than what I am currently using for pastels and other work. It also appears to offer much better protection because I will not be breathing the air in the darkroom. The respirator face mask has a very long and flexible hose that attaches to an outlet in the wall allowing me to breathe outside air. I know this sounds very extreme, but when it comes to chemicals and my working with these substances for many hours at a time, caution, I feel, is indicated in my case. Having said that, artists like Edward and Brett Weston used no protection at all, and in Brett's case, he reached his early eighties before passing away.

Respirators that use replaceable cartridges and require the user to breathe the air contaminated by chemicals offer reasonably good protection. But the protection offered depends upon the length of exposure and the concentration of the chemicals in the air. However, in a well designed darkroom with very good ventilation, let's assume a complete air exchange every three minutes, the concentration of chemicals in the air will indeed be very low as opposed to a closed room with no provision for air exchange at all. And if the darkroom worker is using a JOBO processor, the exposure drops even further.

When I did darkroom work in the past, the room I used was well air conditioned and had excellent air circulation. It was not only easy to keep darkroom chemicals at 68 degrees, but it was really unnecessary for me to wear any protection at all, except for latex gloves. Now, years later, I will be using more toxic materials -- Pyro and Amidol -- and develop my film and prints the way Edward Weston did; that is, I plan to tray develop one negative at a time, and perhaps develop it by inspection. Because I am not a prolific shooter, I am not too worried about a big backlog of negatives to develop, nor am I too concerned about the tediousness of developing one negative at a time. For me, the creation of a single image using these methods will give me the opportunity to come to know my subject matter well, both in the field and in the darkroom. In this way the process becomes more important to me than the final outcome.

Thanks to you all for your kind input.

Best regards,

Greg

[Herb Cunningham]

I use pyro in various incarnations with regular exam gloves, no powder that I get from a surgical type drug store.

They work fine and I do tray dev elopment, haven't had a leak yet.

[Ole Tjugen]

I have used both latex and nitrile gloves, but now I buy only latex - they give a better grip on the slippery little /&%¤/&'s when tray developing sheet film. They stand up to the chemicals at least as long as it takes to develop a batch of 5x7" film, and it's better than dipping my hands in the soup completely unprotected.

[Aaron van de Sande]

Well those are two rather pointless factoids.

Why do you think they are pointless? If asians are gooping the stuff in their hair and they arent dropping dead, than the several of order of magnitudes less exposure in the darkroom with gloves isn't going to do anything to you.

Pyrogallol is also found it tea. Obviously your body is able to metabalize small amounts of phenolics without harm. If you told me large quanities of plutonium were in oak leaves I wouldn't go in the woods.

[Ed Richards]

You would be much better off with proper ventilation in the darkroom than relying on a respirator. Dark fans and intakes are not hard to build, and you can even build a hood over the chemical area. If you worried about the temperature, you could use a heat exchanger. As Paul Butz wrote in another thread, pyro is only a little better than Xtol, and Xtol is clean and safe. If you care about your health, you might just not use the most toxic chemicals.

[Gregory Gomez]

Ed,

I plan to use darkroom ventilation fans that will give me a complete air exchange every three minutes or so. In addition, I will also use the Nitrile gloves and a full-face respirator. That should cover it I think.

Best regards,

Greg

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Hi there,

Greg,

Check out the "S.A.S." half mask respirator, much more comfortable and about half the weight. After 8 hours it will make one hell of a difference. Also remember that the supplied air is completely DRY, do not try to go 8 hour straight, nose bleeds.

Good luck with it.

[Donald Qualls]

One important point to verify with an air supply respirator that draws outside air: it *must* have check valving *at the mask* that draws air through the hose but exhausts to the local room or to a different hose. There may be mask respirators (for instance, those made for firefighting air/oxygen systems) that have the valve at the other end of the hose from the mask -- with a short hose, this works and in an oxygen system something similar is necessary to prevent hyperventilation from carbon dioxide depletion, but with a longer hose, bidirectional flow, and no pressure supply, your lungs may not move enough air through the hose to avoid simply reinhaling (part of) your own exhalation. This can lead to fainting and, if the mask remains in place after fainting, suffocation. Fainting can take as little as two minutes, and death at little as four or five minutes after fainting.

I don't know that there are any masks you could buy new that would permit this -- I *think* all current manufacture respirators have the valving at the mask -- but it's quick to check...

[Wayne]

Why do you think they are pointless? If asians are gooping the stuff in their hair and they arent dropping dead, than the several of order of magnitudes less exposure in the darkroom with gloves isn't going to do anything to you.

You are using the the factoids to imply the level of safety of the chemicals. Asian countries also use chemicals long banned in the US and most of the world for malaria control-does that mean they arent dangerous? Of course not. There are many, many toxic compounds found in nature-does that mean that repeated exposure to some of these compounds, especially in much higher concentrations than found in nature, is not potentially dangerous? Of course not. So the facts contribute little and imply more safety than is necessarily the case.

[Aaron van de Sande]

If you want facts, Hydroquinone is more toxic than pyrogallol and has a higher vapor pressure. Most photographers wont think twice about using HQ developers...

Also the United States has a pretty bad history with toxic chemicals, you can still buy wood pressure-treated with arsenic at home depot. They banned this stuff in Europe years ago. The right of corporations to make a buck seems to be more important than peoples health.
DDT was banned in the US because their patent ran out.

[Gregory Gomez]

Donald,

You have raised some very good points that I should consider very carefully.

How foolish would it be for me to pass out and suffocate while attempting to avoid breathing Pyro/Amidol fumes! This possibility is real, and it's an "industrial accident" that we sometimes hear about.

Losing consciousness can be a sudden experience. If it were to happen to me while wearing a contained air unit, I might not have enough warning or enough time to pull off the mask. Because I will be working alone, it would be a little risky for me to be using such a unit. If I were working in a shop environment with other people around and if I had experience using a contained air unit, it would be a different story.

The best solution for me would be to use a very good, but conventional, half-face respirator that does not use contained air. Then I could rely on my darkroom exhaust system to deliver frequent air exchanges, which I have calculated to be one exchange every two minutes. Taking this more prudent level of precaution, along with the use of the Nitrile gloves, will give me all the protection I need. I am sure the others who have responded might agree.

Thanks for your valuable insight.

Greg

[Gregory Gomez]

Another important point I would like to make is this: the placement of the darkroom fan is important. I plan to put my fan over the darkroom sink so that it will draw the chemical fumes away from me. The fresh-air vents will be behind me in order to create a cross air flow.

[Brian Ellis]

Greg - Just because you'darkroom is small and your printing sessions lasst up to 8 hours doesn't mean you have to keep the door closed the entire time. When I had a poorly verntilated darkroom I used to keep the door open most of the time, closing it only to focus, expose, and get the paper through the stop bath. At all other times the door remained open. Opening and closing the door can get a little tiring but it certainly helps with ventilation if you have a fan aimed at the door and going over the trays of chemicals.

[Gary L. Quay]

Old thread revival alert!

An update: I bought latex gloves last time because they were on sale. I was working with Amidol recently, and when I took off my gloves, my hands had hundreds of tiny black spots on them. This, I assume, is bad. It's nitrile for me from now on.

--Gary