gremlins...

[Thom Bennett]

I'm stumped. I'm getting random lines of fog/exposure/? and I cannot figure out what is causing it. They vary in width and density but generally show up on the long side of my 8x10 HP5 negs, although not always the same side. I do not think it is a camera or holder light leak as it is pretty even and does not always affect the rebate. Other negs of the same subjects (other side of the holder) do not exhibit the lines. Other negs in the same developing run may or may not exhibit the lines. I'm leaning toward defective film and intend to contact Ilford about this but thought I'd start here. Any ideas? Anyone seen something similar and located the cause?

163038163039163040

[Graham Patterson]

Tray development and you rock with your hand on a long side? Pausing a little longer in one point of the cycle? It is not the same side of the holder, so I think you may rule that out, as you say.

[jp]

Is this a scan or a pic of it on a light table? Sometimes scanning you get a look like the first one if the film isn't flat and it's really not a bad negative.

[Thom Bennett]

Tray development and you rock with your hand on a long side? Pausing a little longer in one point of the cycle? It is not the same side of the holder, so I think you may rule that out, as you say.

Graham, I shuffle 4 - 6 films in a tray. I continuously keep them moving and I have them all oriented the same way, i.e. the notches are all in the same corner.

[Thom Bennett]

Is this a scan or a pic of it on a light table? Sometimes scanning you get a look like the first one if the film isn't flat and it's really not a bad negative.

jp these are just iphone shots.

[Randy]

Try taking an unexposed sheet out of the box and process it...? If it has this same problem then it sounds like it is the film. If not, then could it be that the film is getting some exposure as you are loading the film holders in your dark room, or unloading the holders before processing...?

[Thom Bennett]

Try taking an unexposed sheet out of the box and process it...? If it has this same problem then it sounds like it is the film. If not, then could it be that the film is getting some exposure as you are loading the film holders in your dark room, or unloading the holders before processing...?

Randy,

I've already shot all the film from that box but you might be on to something. I've moved darkrooms since I shot that film. I'll have to look back through the film I've had problems with and see if it was loaded in the old darkroom. The most recent film that I shot since being in the new darkroom was FP-4 and I didn't have any problems with it. That's what made me think it might be the film but it may have been the film that I loaded in the old darkroom. Thanks!

[chassis]

The two portrait images have the artifact on the edge away from the notch code. The landscape image has the artifact on the notch code. Do you have a revolving back? Seems like a camera-related thing.

[Thom Bennett]

The two portrait images have the artifact on the edge away from the notch code. The landscape image has the artifact on the notch code. Do you have a revolving back? Seems like a camera-related thing.

Exactly, that's what has me stymied that the density changes in location and width. This is with a KMV camera and I keep the darkcloth over the back when exposing and other images from the same setups are fine. Plus it seems if it was a light leak from the back it would be more intense and not as evenly distributed? But I can't rule out anything at this point.

[Mark Sawyer]

From the definition of the fog/development lines, I'd guess you're either...

A. Letting one negative sit on another in the developer, forming a development mark, or

B. Fogging your film before development, and the lines are from the sheets (or something else) sitting above the ones being fogged, creating a shadow, or

C. You may have similarly fogged the film while loading/unloading your holders.

[Thom Bennett]

From the definition of the fog/development lines, I'd guess you're either...

A. Letting one negative sit on another in the developer, forming a development mark, or

B. Fogging your film before development, and the lines are from the sheets (or something else) sitting above the ones being fogged, creating a shadow, or

C. You may have similarly fogged the film while loading/unloading your holders.

Mark, Yes and I think I'm narrowing it down based on a clue I got from Randy. These were taken out of the holders in my old darkroom where, if I wasn't extra careful, light would leak around the door. I have 15 holders so it takes a bit of time to get them all into the download box so I'm thinking this happened then.

[Vaughn]

From the fogging pattern, definitely not fogged in-camera (or in-holder). Does not have a look of manufacturing defect. When I load film, the sheets tend to stay right together -- unloading they will tend to fan out a little. So that might point to unloading being when the fogging happened.

[LabRat]

Do you use a holding box??? That could lead to a straight fog line if the box is cracked open, or a low darkroom light leak skims across the open box...

Steve K

[Doremus Scudder]

I've had similar problems (i.e., stripes on negatives like yours) twice, with slightly different causes each time. I'll bet you're problem is traceable to one of them.

The first was a light leak in the darkroom that was exposing the film in the tray during processing. The leak was small enough that it just lightly fogged the film. A sheet that got even exposure just got a little fog and doesn't stand out, but edges that stuck out get uneven exposure and develop stripes. After a minute or so in the developer, the sensitivity of the film dropped enough that the small leak wasn't a problem. Check for light leaks. Put a mirror in the bottom of your trays and look at it from all angles as well. Often a leak will turn up that the film sees from its position, but your eye won't from its.

Another cause of such streaking I had was using an alkaline fix and turning on the lights too early in the fixing process. Even an acid stop doesn't remove developer completely and it can get re-activated in the alkaline environment of the fix if there is enough active developer carried over. I had this problem with PMK and it looks like you're using a staining developer too, so... The effect is similar to the light leak problem above: the top sheet gets an even exposure, but the edges of the sheets underneath that are sticking out get "stripes." The re-activated developer then does its thing until enough of the halides are fixed to prevent anything from developing further. FWIW, I use a slightly acid fix for film now just to prevent this from happening.

Best,

Doremus

[Thom Bennett]

I've had similar problems (i.e., stripes on negatives like yours) twice, with slightly different causes each time. I'll bet you're problem is traceable to one of them.

The first was a light leak in the darkroom that was exposing the film in the tray during processing. The leak was small enough that it just lightly fogged the film. A sheet that got even exposure just got a little fog and doesn't stand out, but edges that stuck out get uneven exposure and develop stripes. After a minute or so in the developer, the sensitivity of the film dropped enough that the small leak wasn't a problem. Check for light leaks. Put a mirror in the bottom of your trays and look at it from all angles as well. Often a leak will turn up that the film sees from its position, but your eye won't from its.

Another cause of such streaking I had was using an alkaline fix and turning on the lights too early in the fixing process. Even an acid stop doesn't remove developer completely and it can get re-activated in the alkaline environment of the fix if there is enough active developer carried over. I had this problem with PMK and it looks like you're using a staining developer too, so... The effect is similar to the light leak problem above: the top sheet gets an even exposure, but the edges of the sheets underneath that are sticking out get "stripes." The re-activated developer then does its thing until enough of the halides are fixed to prevent anything from developing further. FWIW, I use a slightly acid fix for film now just to prevent this from happening.

Best,

Doremus

Doremus for the win! I am using PMK Pyro and a basic sodium thiosulfate fixer and I must have turned the light on before fixing was complete. Which fixer do you use now? I wonder if this would happen with ABC Pyro?

Thanks so much!

[Thom Bennett]

Do you use a holding box??? That could lead to a straight fog line if the box is cracked open, or a low darkroom light leak skims across the open box...

Steve K

Steve, I did download these into a box but I put them in a black bag before doing so, which is why I had ruled out the download box being the problem. Also, it was showing up on random sheets. See Doremus' answer below; I think he cracked the mystery.

[Thom Bennett]

From the fogging pattern, definitely not fogged in-camera (or in-holder). Does not have a look of manufacturing defect. When I load film, the sheets tend to stay right together -- unloading they will tend to fan out a little. So that might point to unloading being when the fogging happened.

Vaughn, I was thinking this might be the problem, too but the fogging was too wide and even. See Doremus' answer below; I think he solved the mystery.

[DennisD]

I've experienced that same problem once in the past.

I traced the problem to the film being slightly exposed at some point when several sheets were stacked unevenly upon each other. This was either prior to loading in holders or just after removing from holders.

In my case the exposure was either from a light leak in the darkroom or from a fluorescent fixture that was recently turned off but the phosphors still charged. Since then I adopted more careful procedures for handling multiple sheets before loading and after unloading holders.

[Vaughn]

Vaughn, I was thinking this might be the problem, too but the fogging was too wide and even. See Doremus' answer below; I think he solved the mystery.
Might be why that for 40+ years I still hate to turn on white lights until something is completely fixed!

But were you agitating at all? -- One may not get such nice lines if there were any movement in the fixing tray.

[Thom Bennett]

Might be why that for 40+ years I still hate to turn on white lights until something is completely fixed!

But were you agitating at all? -- One may not get such nice lines if there were any movement in the fixing tray.

Yes, the rules are there for a reason. I agitated for 5 minutes before turning on the lights rather than waiting a full 10.

[Doremus Scudder]

Yes, the rules are there for a reason. I agitated for 5 minutes before turning on the lights rather than waiting a full 10.

Thom,

I would think that 5 minutes in a sodium-thiosulfate-based fixer before turning on the lights would be enough... I'm using Ilford Rapid Fixer and wait two minutes. That said, it's mildly acidic and would inhibit development. If your fixer is alkaline, then maybe 5 minutes isn't adequate. However, a plain hypo bath isn't that alkaline IIRC. I would still keep checking for light leaks and not call the case closed just yet.

Best,

Doremus

[Thom Bennett]

Thom,

I would think that 5 minutes in a sodium-thiosulfate-based fixer before turning on the lights would be enough... I'm using Ilford Rapid Fixer and wait two minutes. That said, it's mildly acidic and would inhibit development. If your fixer is alkaline, then maybe 5 minutes isn't adequate. However, a plain hypo bath isn't that alkaline IIRC. I would still keep checking for light leaks and not call the case closed just yet.

Best,

Doremus

That particular fixing bath was at the end of its effectiveness so that may have played a part. I've checked the new darkroom and it doesn't seem to have any light leaks. However, these films were downloaded into a box in the old darkroom so...

I'll be vigilant about each step of the process and see if this happens again and keep you posted.

[Thom Bennett]

I've experienced that same problem once in the past.

I traced the problem to the film being slightly exposed at some point when several sheets were stacked unevenly upon each other. This was either prior to loading in holders or just after removing from holders.

In my case the exposure was either from a light leak in the darkroom or from a fluorescent fixture that was recently turned off but the phosphors still charged. Since then I adopted more careful procedures for handling multiple sheets before loading and after unloading holders.

DennisD, ah yes, I'd forgotten about flourescent fixtures doing that. The old darkroom had regular light bulbs but the new darkroom has flourescents. I'll allow a bit more time after turning the overheads off before loading or unloading film.