Strange pink spots/blotches on LF film

[Dhuiting]

I'm been having some pink blotches on my c41 film (and now recently a white-ish blotch on a black and white 8x10 photo, HP5+ in XTOL 1:1 for 11 mins) for my 8x10 negatives using the expert 3005 jobo drum and Jobo CPA-2. And now recently some of my 4x5 negatives it has happened, using a 3010 drum. It has even happened with black and white lately, so something is super wrong!

Here's what I'm doing for the c41 8x10 film in the 3005 Expert drums (the most recent batch used two films):

Load the film in darkness, with the emulsion side facing inward so the chemicals will hit it. I haven't really payed attention to how the film sits in the tubes of the 3005 drum with respect to the two little ridges inside, whether the film starts at the ridges or spans them. It doesn't look like it should matter based on the design. Obviously I put the long edge of the film down the tube and the short edge is what curls around the inside of the tube.

**My Jobo only runs one direction now for some reason, so all processes are just going in one direction, but I've read online that that's fine***

Here is my process:

1 min Presoak 400ml of distilled water at 104f , in Jobo running on P setting (per arista c41 kit instructions. The 3005 says 330ml of chemistry and I only have two 8x10 films in, so that is enough developer per the Arista instrucions)
3.5 min developer using 400ml of developer at 104f (on P setting)
6.5 min blix using 400ml of developer at 104f (on P setting)
7 30-second rinses using 400ml of distilled water heated to 104f (in Jobo, with speed set to P)
1 min stabilizer in Jobo 400ml on the slowest speed setting at 104f (so as to not create too many bubbles I use the slow speed setting. I know it says room temp for the stabilizer, but in order to only use 400ml of stabilizer and have it hit all of the surface area of the film, I just do it in the drum, otherwise it wastes tons of stabilizer to have to fill up the whole drum and agitate by hand. But I have tried that as well. I just filled up the drum with stabilzer out of the jobo and slowly turned it by hand as well, and still had the pink spots, so I'm not sure that the stabilizer is what's causing it.)

** One thing to note, when I took the 8x10's out of the Jobo drum this last time, One of them had navy blue liquid still dripping off of it. I don't know what that is, but that is basically the same color of the spots on the negative that turn into pink spots when scanned. I wonder if I'm not washing well enough, or if I need to wash with more than just 400ml of water?

I'm doing the same process with 4x5 and getting the same problem. And now I even did a black and white batch of 2 8x10 photos in the jobo, (HP5+ in 400ml of XTOL 1:1 for 11 mins, 1 min stop bath, 5 mins fix, and 7-8 30 sec washes of distilled water, then rinse in LFN all of this at 20 deg C) and 1 of the two photos had a white blotch similar to the ones on the color. (The other photo in this batch turned out fine)

See attached photos. Just want to see if you know anyone else who has had this problem?
162866162867162868162869

I have a shoot coming up next week and I'm terrified if this happens again I'll be screwed!
(In the meantime, if you can recommend anyone you trust implicitly to process c41 8x10 negatives, I would appreciate the recommendation!)

Thanks!

[koraks]

One thing that comes to mind is an antihalation layer that fails to wash out properly. I would reconsider the assumptions that the film position compared to the ridges and that single-direction rotation are fine. What may work fine for someone else, could just as well cause serious problems in your darkroom.

[chassis]

Could it be a light leak, possibly from a small bellows pinhole? The defect is generally on the bottom edge of the image, and generally orientated along the long dimension of the image.

I am not familiar with the Jobo system to offer any processing-related suggestions.

[Thalmees]

Hello Dhuiting,
As chassis said.
Why you do not check the upper side of your bellows?
Orientation of the pink blotches are the same, and may goes with a light leak from the upper side of your bellows.
But, you have the same problem with different format!
Are you using the same camera for both 4X5 and 8X10 ?
Does this problem show more or different when the camera being under direct lighting?
BTW, the leak could be from the format frame at the rear standard of your camera.
You may use RC paper to test the problem. Leave the lens cap on place and shutter closed, pull the dark slide, consider ISO3, give it time much more the the correct exposure time for the place where you are, return the dark slide, then go develop the paper.
Or do it in the daylight, give it enough time.
If the problem from the bellows or camera back, or any site leak, it should show as a black blotches.
Wish you good luck.

[Dhuiting]

Hi Guys, I appreciate the suggestions but they are not light leaks. I know because I took a negative straight out of the box that never went in the camera (both 8x10 and 4x5 negatives) and developed it, and it happened again. Take a look at this negative again and notice the dripping/running pattern. Something liquid is causing this problem. 162908

[Thalmees]

... not light leaks. I know because I took a negative straight out of the box that never went in the camera (both 8x10 and 4x5 negatives) and developed it, and it happened again. ...
Thanks Dhuiting for your clarification. Will re-read original post again. Looks really a challenge!

...
**My Jobo only runs one direction now for some reason, so all processes are just going in one direction, but I've read online that that's fine***
...
If the internal mechanism is Ok(as far as I know), then, just fitting the chicken leg(if available) in the correct orientation is all that needed to have your processor spinning alternate directions.
I do not think it's fine, having a JOBO processor running only one direction!

[Thalmees]

... not light leaks. I know because I took a negative straight out of the box that never went in the camera (both 8x10 and 4x5 negatives) and developed it, and it happened again. ...
Why should I re-read the original post again?!!!:o
It's from the drum or from the plastic/foil envelop, or something in between.
May you download a photo of the completely processed sheet?
Does that happen when you process unexposed B&W sheet directly from the box?
What color are the blotches?
Do that if you did not do it before.

[Randy]

My initial thought is the film contacting either another sheet of film during processing, or contacting a part of the processor during processing, preventing free flow of all chems during the process. Seems that would explain the blue liquid draining from the film after processing - but I am not familiar with the JOBO system so can't make a guess beyond this.

[Dhuiting]

I solved it!

I thought it was a "C41-only" problem, but when the problem happened on a black and white negative recently, and I saw the purple spots in the middle with the drips running through (just like the c41 negatives on this thread with the navy blue splotches that look pink when scanned) I thought: Wait a minute. An unexposed negative is purple. I have purple spots. Fixer clears purple. WHAT IF THE FIXER DIDN"T CLEAR THAT SPOT?!! Sure enough I put the neg in back in some fixer and it disappeared in seconds. Imagine my elation. So I mixed up some blix and put an old c41 neg that had the mysterious spots in it, and BAM! The splotches went away.

So what's happening is there are parts of the negative that are not being reached by the blix for c41, or by the fixer for Black and White. Either because I'm not fixing long enough, or not using enough chemistry (although I'm using the recommended chemistry, and fixing/blixing for the recommended amount of time) or because of the orientation of the neg in the drum and certain spots pressing against the drum wall and not getting any fixer/blix. (I spent big money on the 3010 and 3005 expert drums from Catlabs because they weren't supposed to have problems like this...)

So rather than having to re fix/re blix each time depending on which negs come out with spots (because in a given batch, half the negs will be fine and half will have spots), I'm wondering if i can change my process slightly to make sure the fixer/blix reaches all part of the neg equally. Maybe I stop the process at the end of the fixing cycling, and turn the neg in the drums a little bit, and then fix for another minute?

Or just do what I did in my re-fix/re-blix experiments just now, and that was do do it in a tray, so I know for sure it is making contact.

Thoughts on this?

Also, if i decided to fix or blix for longer than the recommended time, are there any dangers of fixing too long? Or blixing too long? (The latter is what I'm worried about because it contains bleach and isn't a single chemical like fixer is to black and white.)

[LabRat]

Also, make sure that the drums are really, really clean and bone dry before loading the film... A drop of contamination or liquid can throw off the wetting of film or paper in a drum, and cause spots by uneven wetting on that area (by retarding or speeding up chem action in that spot)...

Steve K

[koraks]

Good that you found the probable cause! Now that you mention it, I've had issues with uneven development and particularly fixation with a Jobo 25xx drum as well, but with xray film. For me, the solution was to only use the lower rotation speed on my cpe-2 (which is 30-40 rpm on mine); the highest speed of 90rpm would result in all sorts of uneven processing.
Other issues may be film buckling in the tank causing the film to stick to the walla of the drum - but I'm not sure what the inside layout of a 3005 or 3010 is exactly as I've never held one in my hands. Steve's suggestion can make sense as well, although I'd also expect uneven development and not just fixation (however, the senses me would be true for my rotation speed thing...)

Well, at least you've found yourself a direction to look in.
As far as I know, c41 bleach and fix times aren't critical, but I'm not sure if a drastically prolonged bleach might attack the dyes in the film.

[Thalmees]

I solved it!
I thought it was a "C41-only" problem, but when the problem happened on a black and white negative recently, and I saw the purple spots in the middle with the drips running through (just like the c41 negatives on this thread with the navy blue splotches that look pink when scanned) I thought: Wait a minute. An unexposed negative is purple. I have purple spots. Fixer clears purple. WHAT IF THE FIXER DIDN"T CLEAR THAT SPOT?!! Sure enough I put the neg in back in some fixer and it disappeared in seconds. Imagine my elation. So I mixed up some blix and put an old c41 neg that had the mysterious spots in it, and BAM! The splotches went away.
So what's happening is there are parts of the negative that are not being reached by the blix for c41, or by the fixer for Black and White. Either because I'm not fixing long enough, or not using enough chemistry (although I'm using the recommended chemistry, and fixing/blixing for the recommended amount of time) or because of the orientation of the neg in the drum and certain spots pressing against the drum wall and not getting any fixer/blix. (I spent big money on the 3010 and 3005 expert drums from Catlabs because they weren't supposed to have problems like this...)
So rather than having to re fix/re blix each time depending on which negs come out with spots (because in a given batch, half the negs will be fine and half will have spots), I'm wondering if i can change my process slightly to make sure the fixer/blix reaches all part of the neg equally. Maybe I stop the process at the end of the fixing cycling, and turn the neg in the drums a little bit, and then fix for another minute?
Or just do what I did in my re-fix/re-blix experiments just now, and that was do do it in a tray, so I know for sure it is making contact.
Thoughts on this?
Also, if i decided to fix or blix for longer than the recommended time, are there any dangers of fixing too long? Or blixing too long? (The latter is what I'm worried about because it contains bleach and isn't a single chemical like fixer is to black and white.)
Thanks Dhuiting for the update.
May you mention the wrong volumes of solutions with the corresponding drum/tanks, for others to be aware?
It could be much useful.
Thanks.

[Dhuiting]

Thanks Dhuiting for the update.
May you mention the wrong volumes of solutions with the corresponding drum/tanks, for others to be aware?
It could be much useful.
Thanks.

Actually, I'm not entirely sure that volume of solution was the problem in this case, but for the 3010 drum it says the minimum amount of solution needed is 330ml, and for the 3005 drum it says 210 ml. Although each developer has its own "minimum" amount per square inch of film which is usually more that those Jobo minimum amounts, based on how many films are in the drum at a time, so I would hesitate to give amounts of solution since they differ with each developer. What I have found though, is that besides the extra strain on the Jobo motor, erring on the side of using more solution doesn't really "hurt" anything, it just means there is more chemical in the drum, and lessens the chance of the chemical becoming exhausted before doing it's job, so I usually double those minimum amounts on the side of the Jobo drums at least, just for good measure.

[Dhuiting]

Hi all, got another problem. I have some strange green streaks on a negative that look to be something to do with something running down the negative during development. (I use a Jobo CPA-2., and the motor only goes one way, but that has not negatively affected anything and even after this negative I continue to make great-looking negs in the machine.) I did 4 negatives in this batch and the other 3 turned out just fine and with no problems at all.

I've had streaks before, but they were pink, and after posting on the forum and tons of other folks saying it was just "light leaks," I had a hunch that wasn't it. I had a hunch that the fixer hadn't fully done its job removing the silver halide, and sure enough I threw the negs back in the blix and the pink streaks went right away. Problem solved, I thought.

Now, I have streaks that are green. I threw this neg back in the blix today (which is days later, and after stabilizing it initially when I developed it last week) and the streaks are still there. So I'm wondering if anyone has any idea what the deal is. The pink streaks I had before were excess silver halide, but these green streaks I have no idea. The chemicals I used were the Arista c41 kit, with an added stop bath in between developer and blix (on the advice of forum member PE to make it easier for the blix to do its job).

Here is a picture:170971

Any idea what is causing this?

ALSO it is worth noting that i put in in blix today, which is several days after I had put the negative in Stabilizer. I'm not sure what's in stabilizer (is it just glorified Photo Flo?) but perhaps that "sealed it up" somehow and made the blix not able to get the rest of the residual silver halide off? If not, perhaps it's some kind of uneven development, but the weird thing is all 3 of the other negs in that Jobo 3005 drum turned out great. Strange.