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Stephen Vaughan
10-Jun-2005, 03:59
Hi Everyone. Although the Fuji 240-A f9 lens has been talked about before on this forum, I am specifically interested in replies from those who have knowledge or experience of this lens on 8x10 (rather than on 5x4 or 5x7), using colour negative film. I would be grateful for information regarding (actual) coverage at infinity, sharpness and contrast (at f22 and higher – print size up to 50x40).
I currently use 240 and 210 G Clarons or a Fuji W 250 6.7 (all single coated). I am interested in the Fuji 240 A because of the multicoating and possible improvements in contrast and sharpness in colour.
Thanks in advance for your responses...........

steve simmons
10-Jun-2005, 08:08
The Fuji 240 A will cover with just a little movement. IMHO this is a terrific lens for black and white and color. It is tack sharp to the edges.

steve simmons

Ted Harris
10-Jun-2005, 08:39
Since I have not used any other 240mmlens I can't tell you if you willg et more movement with any of the others. You do have a bit of movement with the 240A as Steve says. I use both the 240A and the 300A and find these lenses to be among my favorites across the board. Excellent performers. Don't forget too the incredibly small size of this lens. It is the absolute smallest and lightest lens I own!

Donald Hutton
10-Jun-2005, 08:55
Stephen

I own one of these and use it a lot on 8X10. You get just under an inch of rise in landscape at f32 - which is not a huge amount, but is quite a bit for a 240mm on 8X10. Shooting architectural subjects, I run out of movement now and again with this lens; if you shoot mostly landscapes, you will likely be fine. I love it - the multicoated optics are a huge bonus over the G-Clarons.

Eric Leppanen
10-Jun-2005, 10:17
Within its rated image circle I would say my 240A is the sharpest lens I own, even when compared with my Super Symmar XL's and Sironar-S's. It definitely held its own compared to a 240mm APO Sironar-S I recently owned. Colors are brilliant and contrast is superb. I did some coverage tests with this lens when I first bought my 8x10 and found I could get roughly one inch of rise in vertical orientation (a bit more in horizontal). When I tried two inches of rise in vertical orientation, I got vignetting at the corners plus the top one inch of the image was soft. But none of the other available multi-coated 240mm lenses will do much better, and if you want significantly more movement you'll have to go to the 210mm (huge) or 300mm focal lengths.

Kerry L. Thalmann
10-Jun-2005, 10:58
Stephen,

I am also a big fan of the little 240mm Fujinon A. As everyone else has stated, it is an amazingly sharp and compact lens. Due to this combination of great performance and tiny size/weight the 240mm Fujinon A is a member of my list of Future Classics (http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/future.htm). I use this lens on 4x5, 5x7, 4x10 and on rare occasion 8x10. It is a very versatile lens. Small enough for extended backpacking trips with the 4x5, but with enough coverage for 4x10 and the occasional 8x10.

As others have mentioned, it covers 8x10, but only allows limited movements. Based on my experience, the 70 coverage spec listed by Fuji is pretty accurate. As Eric mentioned the circle of illumination is bigger, but the sharpness falls of very quickly once you get beyond the rated 70 degree coverage.

The 240mm G Claron covers more, when stopped down, but is bigger, heavier (although still VERY compact and lightweight for a lens that covers 8x10 with movements) and single coated.

The 240mm Germinar W offers the best of both worlds. This is a multicoated lens with performance equivalent to the 240mm Fujinon A, but with coverage comparable to the G Claron. Unfortunately, this lens had a very short production life before Docter Optics went under. So, it can be hard to find. With it's multicoated glass and greater coverage (close to 80 degrees at f32) the 240mm Germinar W would be my first choice of the three (if you can find one) for 8x10 color. If you can't find the Germinar, the 240mm Fujinon A will serve you well, as long as you don't push the coverage too far.

Kerry

Brian Ellis
10-Jun-2005, 16:55
"the multi-coated optics are a huge bonus over the G Clarons."

I've used many single coated and muti coated lenses. I've never noticed any difference betwen single and multi coatings. Some people claim slightly greater contrast with multicoating, some say multicoating helps in high flare situations. Neither difference is usually considered major and I haven't consistently observed even these minimal differences. What form does the "huge bonus" that you've found with multi coating take?

Donald Hutton
10-Jun-2005, 18:00
Brian

I just find flare issues with non-multicoated lenses... It can be extremely frustrating. One of the things I enjoy enormously about Pt is the ability to easily manage backlit compositions. I have had many negatives ruined by flare on my 355mm G Claron under these conditions (with a Lee hood in place). I really like the G Claron - light (for the focal lengh), decent size filter ring and very sharp, but flare is a real problem. I never had the same problems with it on silver, because I just was never attempting the sorts of compositions which you can for a Pt print. In fact, I now really try to change my composition down to a 300mm or up to a 450mm (both of which are MC) if I think the composition presents flare potential.

Paul_5410
10-Jun-2005, 19:27
A question to all Large Format Fujinon Users here in this thread please. . .

How are the Fujinon lenses in general about flare? I just got a 210 -W with the EBC MC system and have not had the opportunity to use it yet? I have read that the beam coating eliminates flare and all other flaws but that seems to be spin talk to me???

Some of the names in this thread are familiar to me as having experience with the whole series produced by Fujinon so I wanted to ask.

Thank You and please tolerate my bending of this thread, Paul

Ken Lee
11-Jun-2005, 07:52
One other thing to keep in mind: we usually describe coverage at infinity. The closer the subject, the larger the image circle.



In any event, coverage becomes less of an issue as you move in towards the subject. The 240A has lots of coverage when shooting details (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/gallery/peony6-03.htm" target="_blank).



The A-Series lenses, as Kerry and others have pointed out, are optimized for a "close" distance. Just exactly how close, has been the subject of occasional discussion on this forum. They are not optimized for 1:1, however.

Lars Åke Vinberg
14-Jun-2005, 23:44
I have an early (silver shutter speed ring) 240-A, it doesn't say multicoated but the reflections look like the one on Kerry's site that he says is multicoated so I assume it is.

I also have a 240 Apo-Symmar. Comparing the photos from the Apo-Symmar with the photos from the Fujinon-A I must say I prefer the Apo-Symmar. I might be wrong on this, but it would seem that it has slightly less fall-off and slightly higher local contrast, giving the photos more "pop". I'm shooting color transparencies, so I'm perhaps a bit picky when it comes to falloff. And lower local contrast might be a good thing.

schafphoto
24-Nov-2019, 16:53
I recently did a HABS project on 5x7 and found that my 240mm f9 Fujinon A (silver-ring, Copal 0 shutter, serial #521594) does get unsharp around the outer edges of the image circle. I'd say about and inch before the edge.
I was pushing the limits to get a clock tower into the frame at f22 and probably went past the "recommended" rise because I did not see the edge of the image circle.
My M.K. Davis chart on this lens says: Image circle 336mm - 5x7 rise in vertical for 71.73mm. Since my Cambo's front rise maxes out at around 90mm I had the capacity for error and made use of it.
I suggest you compose based on the numbers rather than the corners of the lens vignetting unless you have only sky in the top inch of your frame.

Drew Wiley
24-Nov-2019, 18:04
Old old thread. But the 240A easily covers 8x10 with moderate tilt or rise if you use smaller f/stops typical of 8x10 work, say, f/45 or so. I've done prints up to 30x40 inch and they're quite acceptable way out to the corners. No, it's not a wide-angle design, so the amount of rise even at smaller stops would be modest. 90mm rise is unrealistic. But the real-world coverage at infinity is almost identical to both the Fuji 250/6.7 and the 250/9 G-Claron.

Sal Santamaura
24-Nov-2019, 18:13
I recently did a HABS project on 5x7 and found that my 240mm f9 Fujinon A (silver-ring, Copal 0 shutter, serial #521594) does get unsharp around the outer edges of the image circle. I'd say about and inch before the edge.
I was pushing the limits to get a clock tower into the frame at f22 and probably went past the "recommended" rise because I did not see the edge of the image circle.
My M.K. Davis chart on this lens says: Image circle 336mm - 5x7 rise in vertical for 71.73mm. Since my Cambo's front rise maxes out at around 90mm I had the capacity for error and made use of it.
I suggest you compose based on the numbers rather than the corners of the lens vignetting unless you have only sky in the top inch of your frame.I have both the 240A and a 240 Germinar W, both purchased new and still in pristine condition. My sample of the Germinar W is much sharper than my sample of the 240A, on axis as well as at the edges of its (larger than the 240A's) image circle. If you can find one -- mine's not for sale -- the Germinar W would offer better performance in your application.

Drew Wiley
24-Nov-2019, 18:57
That's sorta a Bentley vs Rolls Royce argument. The Fuji 240 A is an extraordinary lens, but does begin approaching its infinity circle limit on 8x10 format. Yes, there's a tiny bit of detail loss near the corners with 8x10 which makes it a bit less remarkable lens on this format than on 4x5 or 5x7 applications. But it takes a rather big enlargement to even detect that. At the moment, I'm scratching my head about a bargain deal on a 270 G-Claron. That should give me a tad more quality in the extreme corners of 8x10 with strong movements. The 240A and 250GC are almost identical in performance except for the slightly higher contrast of the Fuji A due to multicoating. Another positive of the 240A is its tiny size (no.0 shutter). I've never even seen a 240 Germinar.

schafphoto
24-Nov-2019, 22:24
Old old thread....

Yes but since 6300 people have looked at this thread, including me, why start a new one...
I like my treads to be vintage like my cameras.

Sal Santamaura
25-Nov-2019, 08:25
I have both the 240A and a 240 Germinar W, both purchased new and still in pristine condition. My sample of the Germinar W is much sharper than my sample of the 240A, on axis as well as at the edges of its (larger than the 240A's) image circle. If you can find one -- mine's not for sale -- the Germinar W would offer better performance in your application.


That's sorta a Bentley vs Rolls Royce argument...In the case of my two samples, more like a Lexus vs Fiat comparison.


...The Fuji 240 A is an extraordinary lens, but does begin approaching its infinity circle limit on 8x10 format. Yes, there's a tiny bit of detail loss near the corners with 8x10 which makes it a bit less remarkable lens on this format than on 4x5 or 5x7 applications. But it takes a rather big enlargement to even detect that...I have Fujinon A lenses in 180mm, 240mm, 300mm and 360mm, all EBC coated and in pristine condition. The 180 and 240 were purchased brand new. The 360 is sharpest, followed by the 180 (this one used for roll film only), then a tie between the 240 and 300, neither of which is particularly sharp. All except the 180 evaluated on 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10. Results were consistent across formats and film holders.


...At the moment, I'm scratching my head about a bargain deal on a 270 G-Claron. That should give me a tad more quality in the extreme corners of 8x10 with strong movements...I've got one of those too, also purchased brand new, among the last in stock at Schneider USA when that line was discontinued. It's sharper than my 240A and 300A but not as sharp as the 240 Germinar W.


...The 240A and 250GC are almost identical in performance except for the slightly higher contrast of the Fuji A due to multicoating...I assume "250GC" is an error and was intended to reference a 240mm G-Claron, right?


...I've never even seen a 240 Germinar.Too bad. My sample is head and shoulders above the 240A in terms of coverage, sharpness and flatness of field.

Sal Santamaura
25-Nov-2019, 08:27
...since 6300 people have looked at this thread, including me, why start a new one...Bravo, Stephen. Thanks for doing the right thing and keeping this archive more easily searchable. It ain't a chat room. :)

Drew Wiley
25-Nov-2019, 11:45
Once again I'm extremely doubtful of the objectivity of your assessment of Fuji A series lenses, having used a variety of them for decades with consistently more than outstanding results, exceeding any general purpose plasmat I've gotten ahold of, even with demanding high magnification roll-film applications and not just sheet film. Maybe you're seeing lack of film flatness issues instead. I dunno. But to avoid another brawl, you can stick to your lens religion; I'll stick to mine. And yes, GC equates to G-Claron, nominally 240, but according to the brochure, actually 238. I don't get nitpicky over such things, just over performance per se. Otherwise, I have no reason to doubt your endorsement of the Apo Germinar, just your ridiculous, routinely-disproven "Fiat" slander of the Fuji A series. I will concede that both the Fuji A and Schneider GC of that focal length are approaching their practical circle limit with 8x10 format, but are still distinctly practical. I have a number of true apo lenses myself, namely, Apo Nikkors which exceed in terms of acuity and apochromaticity any of my official view camera lenses, but are not as practical in the field, and are optically overkill for most real-world applications. I am getting ready to use a 240 Apo Nikkor tomorrow (rainy day forecast) for a very demanding application in the darkroom, making a precise enlarged color internegative.

Andrew Plume
25-Nov-2019, 12:40
Mmmm, an interesting recent discussion

I found the Fuji 240 restricted for swing and shift when it came to 10 x 8 and isn't it 'a process lens design' (or whatever is the correct expression) which would impact on 'the angle of view'. However it would be a great lens for the Whole Plate size

S Simmons used to use the lens for a lot of his 5 x 7 portrait work but there we are he is or was an Architectural Photographer, so depth of field was essential for his work

Drew, I seem to recall that the 270 g-Claron is very soft at the edges..................

Sal...."...I have Fujinon A lenses in 180mm, 240mm, 300mm and 360mm, all EBC coated and in pristine condition. The 180 and 240 were purchased brand new..." that's great for you etc, seem to recall that you also own a WP Ebony, looks like you've accumulated a very respectable amount of kit here

rgds

Andrew

Sal Santamaura
25-Nov-2019, 13:03
Once again I'm extremely doubtful of the objectivity of your assessment of Fuji A series lenses, having used a variety of them for decades with consistently more than outstanding results, exceeding any general purpose plasmat I've gotten ahold of, even with demanding high magnification roll-film applications and not just sheet film. Maybe you're seeing lack of film flatness issues instead...

We've been through this nonsense before. You've questioned my film holders before. I've refuted that red herring before. The extent of arm waving and everything-knowing was astounding:


https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?71322-f64&p=1321449&viewfull=1#post1321449


...I dunno...In this case, no, you most certainly don't know.


...you can stick to your lens religion; I'll stick to mine..I'll stick to my objective testing. Religion, one would hope including your lens religion, is officially prohibited on this forum.


...I don't get nitpicky over such things...Or, apparently, over things like the phrase "my samples" when discussing test reports. :)


...your ridiculous, routinely-disproven "Fiat" slander of the Fuji A series...It's impossible to disprove something I've never said. My tests showed my 360A to be sharper than my 360 Apo Sironar N as well as my 355 Kern Dagor. The other A-series test results are what they are. I have no "belief" (acceptance in the absence of credible evidence) in the superiority of any lens series. I test, report and use.


...I am getting ready to use a 240 Apo Nikkor tomorrow (rainy day forecast) for a very demanding application in the darkroom, making a precise enlarged color internegative.

Once again, utterly irrelevant arm waving. Reinforcing that everything you post must be questioned and, when appropriate, ignored.

Drew Wiley
25-Nov-2019, 13:24
Predictable hyper-defensive response. At least you are consistent in that. It would be nice to accept your experience and input without having to wiggle through the habitual minefield of you always trying to discount or undermine what I say, for, who gosh knows, what kind of reason - certainly not evidential. Back to my Ignore list for awhile, until you realize a lens discussion isn't like someone announcing a Russian nuke had just been launched at California.

Sal Santamaura
25-Nov-2019, 13:41
...Back to my Ignore list for awhile...Excellent. That makes refuting nonsense a lot easier. Much less keyboarding required. :D

schafphoto
25-Nov-2019, 22:58
I know this is an 8x10 titled thread and I made a 5x7 comment that I thought would be relevant.
I probably shouldn't make a habit of sharing my outtakes, but I would reiterate that the center of my copy of the 240A is plenty sharp in the center. Given the size/weight /price. I'm sure I could have made my photo with a bigger, heavier, expensiver lens. But after packing light for a flight to New York. I should have just payed more attention to the maximum rise and not pushed it. I'm attaching the image so you can see just how the very sharp tower becomes an acceptably sharp clock and then continues to be a not so sharp steeple. (under a 10X loupe anyway) Perfectly OK for contact prints but as a self diagnosed pixel peeper I was disappointed.
197828

Just be careful if you walk on the edge... If you need to deliver unretouched negatives without cropping or retouching in post like I do for HABS, I cringe when I get negatives like this. Luckily the other 29 views of this building I took do not exhibit similar user error/equipment limitations. A 96% on any test is still OK, but I have learned my lesson for next time and that's all I can hope for.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49125943741_2e81c23fd2_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hR6iy2)
HABS-NY-6402-23 (https://flic.kr/p/2hR6iy2)
by Stephen Schafer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/schafphoto/), on Flickr

Eric Leppanen
26-Nov-2019, 11:05
I'm attaching the image so you can see just how the very sharp tower becomes an acceptably sharp clock and then continues to be a not so sharp steeple.I also shot exterior architecture during my 8x10 shooting days, and similar results to this prompted my replacing my Fuji 240A with a 240 Germinar W for 8x10 use. About a year after I originally posted in this thread I documented over at APUG (now Photrio) my own test results with the Germinar, including the use of a center filter with extreme movements (https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/center-filter-on-240mm-germinar-w-lens.17653/). Here is an excerpt:

"I recently purchased from Kerry Thalmann here at APUG a 240mm Germinar W lens for use on my 8x10 camera. As has been already reported, this lens achieves a usable image circle in the neighborhood of 400mm when stopped down to f/64 and focused at infinity. This image circle gets larger if the lens is focused closer (I find that at roughly a 15 foot focus distance I get at least 400mm of useful image circle at f/22). However, when using chrome film in bright outdoor lighting, I have found that the lens exhibits considerable light falloff when used near the edge of its usable image circle (e.g., applying roughly 2.5 inches of front rise in portrait orientation when shooting close architectural subjects). The amount of falloff is comparable to that of my SS210XL, for which I use a center filter when shooting chrome film in such circumstances. Being in an ambitious mood, and liking the option of using such a small, lightweight lens in this application, I purchased a Schneider #2 (older version) 1.5 stop center filter (49mm inner thread, 67mm outer thread, Schneider part number 08039286) in the hope of reducing this falloff to an acceptable level. This center filter was designed for a very different lens (47mm Super Angulon), but it was the only center filter I could find which fits directly to the Germinar’s front filter thread, so I decided it was worth a shot.

The filter works beautifully! Light falloff is now well controlled, and what little falloff remains progresses in a linear fashion from the center to the edge of the image circle. The only restriction is that, at maximum front rise (2.5 inches) in portrait orientation, the center filter starts to slightly mechanically vignette at the corners, but for my work this has not proven a problem since these areas are usually open sky, and can be easily fixed in Photoshop."

With negative film the light falloff may not be much of a problem at all.

Drew Wiley
26-Nov-2019, 11:16
There are pros and cons in architectural applications. The 240 Fuji A is not a wide-angle design. It is, stopped down, a highly corrected plasmat with about 80 deg coverage. The falloff and distortion is therefore minimal. With true wide-angle designs, often needed for architectural shooting, especially tight interiors, a center filter is a wise accessory to have on hand, unless you want deliberate corner darkening. They aren't going to give you as great acuity either, especially quite close-up, where the Fuji A's and G-Claron designs especially stand out. In an already heavy backpack hiking around steep hills and so forth all day with an 8x10 system, it's nice to have multi-purpose optics which are also compact, yet at the same time, do especially excel at certain functions. In my own case, a kit for personal use and one for a commercial architectural shoot get configured with different lens choices. I rarely use a big super-wide anymore; but there are times one distinctly needs them. I boil down the problem a bit more - or did, back when I still took on architectural projects - by sticking with 4x5 cameras in those instances. With 8x10 I have more creative liberty in lens choice because it's for personal work instead.

Vaughn
28-Nov-2019, 11:46
...Perfectly OK for contact prints but as a self diagnosed pixel peeper I was disappointed.....
Looks to be the clock tower of Cornell. I listened to performances up there.

Now back to our regular program...

Drew Wiley
28-Nov-2019, 12:06
I've done 30x40 Cibachromes from 240A 8x10's - a far more demanding application than any kind of pixel-peeping or inket or magazine repro. The secret is to use as much back tilt as possible instead of front tilt on receding planes; keep rise within about an inch for 8x10, and stop down to at least f/45. But clock towers up close, wrong lens. Here the problem is more often tall redwoods up close, which can challenge even the huge image circle of the 360A.