New to LF, Lens Question

[catmando]

Hi all,

I'm new to LF, having shot 35mm and MF for about 5 years. I bought an Intrepid 4x5 as it seemed nice, new and light. I also found a Pullin Pulnar 100mm f2.8 mounted on a Copal Press 1 shutter. The price was too good to pass up.

Here are my questions:

- The lens is currently mounted on a board I do not recognize (image attached), which has a slight extension and an offset hole. It seems to be Technika compatible and fits the front of my Intrepid. Taking this into account:

The lens does not seem to cover the full 4x5 ground glass. It seems to suffer from mechanical vignetting no matter how I move the front element (and 100mm is very close to the minimum for this camera, so movements are limited).
Is this something that has anything to do with the "strange" board?
I cannot seem to find any information on this lens (although it has been spoken of here (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?102187-Pullin-London-14C-5682-100mm-f-2-8-Pulnar-No-F7140)). Does this lens simply not cast a large enough image circle at infinity?
The shutter it's mounted on has an aperture scale that goes to 1.9: any ideas on how I can work out a conversion table for this 2.8 lens?


160926

I appreciate any feedback and hopefully one day I will be in a position to give some help myself.

[Steven Tribe]

deleted!

[catmando]

Um...what? The link mentions the lens but it says nothing about vigentting. I'm a new user and I need some help, so what's the deal?

[Emil Schildt]

too small a lins I think (150 would be normal FL, but it has to be a 150 LF lens... not for MF or 35mm cameras..)

[catmando]

There are 65mm lernses for 4x5 cameras!

[Leigh]

There's a lot more to lens performance than focal length.
For example, a 100mm lens for a 35mm camera will throw an image circle not much larger than 35mm film.
Your lack of 4x5 coverage may be that the Pullin lens is designed for a smaller film format. I've never heard of it.

Your extended lensboard is designed to accommodate lenses of longer focal length than the native bellows will do.
This is less common than recessed boards, but not unheard of. Recessed boards accommodate short FL lenses.

Obviously you could simply shift the front standard forward to support a longer FL, but doing so loses focus range.

- Leigh

[Leigh]

There are 65mm lernses for 4x5 cameras!
That comment is apropos of what?

A 65mm lens on a Minox would be a telephoto.

- Leigh

[Luis-F-S]

You might want to read up a bit more before you buy another lens

[catmando]

Makes sense Leigh, I figured that at least some of the problem might be caused by the board.

[catmando]

Leigh, the 65 mm comment is in reply to "too small a lins I think (150 would be normal FL, but it has to be a 150 LF lens... not for MF or 35mm cameras..)"

[catmando]

Luis, indeed. How helpful.

[Luis-F-S]

Hi all,

I'm new to LF, having shot 35mm and MF for about 5 years. I bought an Intrepid 4x5 as it seemed nice, new and light. I also found a Pullin Pulnar 100mm f2.8 mounted on a Copal Press 1 shutter. The price was too good to pass up.

Maybe you figured out why............

[Luis-F-S]

Luis, indeed. How helpful.

Since it appears from your lens selection that you have little knowledge of LF my advice stands. Hint: follow Leigh's advice and try a 150 mm Schneider Symmar or Rodensrock Sironar or Nikkor or Caltar f/5.6 lens and it will cover.

There is lots and lots of free material on the web on image circles for large format lenses. You need an image circle at least the diameter of the negative diagonal!

[djdister]

The top hat (extended) lens board is inappropriate (and counterproductive) to use with what would be a wide angle lens on 4x5, but that is not your main problem. That lens won't work for 4x5, end of story. If you want wide angle, look for a 90mm Super Angulon (and get a new lens board, possibly recessed one), or go for a normal 4x5 lens focal length like a 150mm. There are plenty to pick from in that range.

[Alan Gales]

Like Leigh, I have never heard of your lens so I googled it. I found that Pullin lenses were used by the British Air Ministry. Most are barrel lenses and were used as projection lenses. Some were found in shutter like yours and everyone seems baffled about what they were used for. An Ebay seller had one in shutter and claimed it would cover 4x5 but of course you can't always believe Ebay Sellers. Just because a lens will illuminate a ground glass does not mean it covers.

Mount it on a recessed board and try it out. Welcome to the forum! :)

[IanG]

I've seen a couple, both had military markings and were in Prontor press type shutters.

A 100mm f2.8 lens of any type/design isn't going to cover 5x4, however it might cover 6x9 so usable with a roll film back. There are claims that these are very sharp lenses but they aren't common. The Vague Mecum lists two BJPA pages but neither mention this lens.

Ian

[Chauncey Walden]

From a former thread: The most common Pullin item for collectors is a Pulnar f2.8 100mm (c.4in) slide projector lens, often ex-WD.
It has M39x26 thread but no iris or focus scale. It was seen at No47,20x. It was an early postwar product,
(MCM Dec 1946, B.J.A. 1950, p475advert.) The Pulnar was listed in 1955 as made in f2.8, 50, 100, 150mm.
There is a notice of the Pullin 35mm slide projector in B.J.A. 1947, p188, and the lenses were f2.8 in 8 foci
from 2in to 6in. They gave excellent definition and clarity. One of these has been reported in alloy and black
finish at Projection Pulnar f2.8/F=2" (50mm) No F104x.
As such, I don't think you could expect it to cover more than 2x3 (6x7) if that. It might be OK as a high magnification macro lens.

[IanG]

From a former thread: The most common Pullin item for collectors is a Pulnar f2.8 100mm (c.4in) slide projector lens, often ex-WD.
It has M39x26 thread but no iris or focus scale. It was seen at No47,20x. It was an early postwar product,
(MCM Dec 1946, B.J.A. 1950, p475advert.) The Pulnar was listed in 1955 as made in f2.8, 50, 100, 150mm.
There is a notice of the Pullin 35mm slide projector in B.J.A. 1947, p188, and the lenses were f2.8 in 8 foci
from 2in to 6in. They gave excellent definition and clarity. One of these has been reported in alloy and black
finish at Projection Pulnar f2.8/F=2" (50mm) No F104x.
As such, I don't think you could expect it to cover more than 2x3 (6x7) if that. It might be OK as a high magnification macro lens.

I checked the BJPA references (they are on the bookshelf right by me) no mention of the lenses.

Ian

[catmando]

The top hat (extended) lens board is inappropriate (and counterproductive) to use with what would be a wide angle lens on 4x5, but that is not your main problem. That lens won't work for 4x5, end of story. If you want wide angle, look for a 90mm Super Angulon (and get a new lens board, possibly recessed one), or go for a normal 4x5 lens focal length like a 150mm. There are plenty to pick from in that range.

Thank you djdister, that makes sense. I shall indeed purchase another lens and board. I am happy with the shutter though, on B&H it goes for over 500 USD and I got it and the lens for 100.

[catmando]

Alan, you're correct. It looks like it will cover 6x9, which is fine for the price.

[catmando]

Chauncey, thank you.

[catmando]

Ian, thank you.

[catmando]

I think I will close this. I appreciate everyone who had something useful to say. Clearly this is an unusual lens and it's obvious it will not cover 4x5, but will cover roll film backs at 6x7, possibly 6x9. Testing on positive paper yields extremely sharp results wide open, vignette and all. It's an interesting item, but obviously its mysterious origins preclude a technical sheet or anything of the kind.

Thanks again to all those who were kind enough to help out, even though my knowledge of LF is still very limited.

[Emil Schildt]

too small a lins I think (150 would be normal FL, but it has to be a 150 LF lens... not for MF or 35mm cameras..)

yes??

[Dan Fromm]

I also found a Pullin Pulnar 100mm f2.8 mounted on a Copal Press 1 shutter. The price was too good to pass up.

Another poisoned gift. A character who posts on mflenses.com has one, says that it is very sharp and covers 2x3. Won't cover 4x5.

IanG, the character, another Ian, says that his is an ex -WD projector lens and that the cells are direct fits in a #0. I have doubts about that other Ian's judgment so am not sure that the lens is sharp or covers even 2x3.

Catmando, I just visited the Intrepid site. They say that the camera's minimum extension is 65 mm (look here: https://intrepidcamera.co.uk/products/intrepid-camera). Modern 65 mm lenses (Super Angulons and such) have flange-to-film distances around 70 mm, will work fine on it. So will most longer modern lenses for 4x5.

[Corran]

By the way, that's not an "extension" board, it looks to me like it's a typical recessed board that someone attached the lens to backwards. Depending on brand and attachments (Linhof), it may be worth it to resell, since it is a silly thing to use for that lens.

If it indeed covers 6x9 at f/2.8, that's not a bad deal, if you shoot 6x9. Get a proper lens for 4x5 - Google anything you find if you don't know, and if no one knows, it most likely doesn't cover 4x5.

As for 35mm vs. MF vs. LF lenses though, I will point out that just because a lens was sold for 35mm doesn't mean it must be used on 35mm. Take for instance the long lenses sold for Leica cameras that actually would cover larger formats. Of course this is uncommon and certainly only applies to longer "tele" lenses (though not actually tele designs - I use the term colloquially here). I have a 20" B&L lens that came to me attached to a Leica screwmount camera (!!) via a reflex housing. The lens weighs 10x what the camera weighs and covers up to 8x10...

[Bob Salomon]

By the way, that's not an "extension" board, it looks to me like it's a typical recessed board that someone attached the lens to backwards. Depending on brand and attachments (Linhof), it may be worth it to resell, since it is a silly thing to use for that lens.

If it indeed covers 6x9 at f/2.8, that's not a bad deal, if you shoot 6x9. Get a proper lens for 4x5 - Google anything you find if you don't know, and if no one knows, it most likely doesn't cover 4x5.

As for 35mm vs. MF vs. LF lenses though, I will point out that just because a lens was sold for 35mm doesn't mean it must be used on 35mm. Take for instance the long lenses sold for Leica cameras that actually would cover larger formats. Of course this is uncommon and certainly only applies to longer "tele" lenses (though not actually tele designs - I use the term colloquially here). I have a 20" B&L lens that came to me attached to a Leica screwmount camera (!!) via a reflex housing. The lens weighs 10x what the camera weighs and covers up to 8x10...
Not just looks like, it is a backward mounted Technika 45 recessed board. The camera's front standard must have a sloppy lens board mount to do this.

[B.S.Kumar]

There's a great deal of information on lenses on the home page (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/). When you're starting out, inexpensive is the way to go. And don't sell the lens board. You'll need it if/when you buy a wide angle lens. The Technika board can be used with many cameras directly, and with most cameras using adapters. Many of us have all but very large lenses mounted on Technika boards to make it easy to use on different cameras.

Kumar

[Corran]

The camera's front standard must have a sloppy lens board mount to do this.

Out of curiosity, I checked my Master Technika (which is in excellent condition), and a recessed Linhof-brand board fits fine backwards, as long as the QR socket is off. So apparently it doesn't have to be a "sloppy fit."

[David Lobato]

The lens does not seem to cover the full 4x5 ground glass. It seems to suffer from mechanical vignetting no matter how I move the front element

Sorry to jump in late. The question was not directly answered for a beginner to LF. Lenses are designed for the format they need to cover. Look up image circle for large format lenses. Lens specifications have an angle of coverage - the size of the cone of light behind them going to the film. A 100mm lens for medium format needs less coverage (smaller negative) compared to a lens designed for 4x5 (larger negative). This explains what you found with your 100mm lens. A 100mm (give or take) will need to be a wide angle design to cover 4x5. 135mm and longer lenses designed for 4x5 will cover the 152mm diagonal with no issues. They are not expensive either with a Copal 0 shutter.

[catmando]

To the latest replies:

- It is indeed a reversed recess board (looks like Copal 0). The reason its reversed is because the Copal 1 Press shutter will not fit inside the recess when fitted the correct way round.
- Clearly this lens cannot cover 4x5 but it seems very sharp at 2.8 on positive paper and I was planning on getting a Graflock back at 6x9 anyway.
- The board is certainly a keeper.


Thank you for the more technical replies, they are very helpful. I guess years of relatively simple MF & 35mm have made me rather lazy in reading up, so I shall go do that.

[Dan Fromm]

If you're up for reading, there are books on LF photography. The two most commonly recommended here are Steve Simmons' Understanding the View Camera and Leslie Strobel's View Camera Technique. Both are available at reasonable prices from sellers on, in alphabetical order, abebooks.com, alibris.com, amazon.com, ...

[Greg]

If you're up for reading, there are books on LF photography. The two most commonly recommended here are Steve Simmons' Understanding the View Camera and Leslie Strobel's View Camera Technique. Both are available at reasonable prices from sellers on, in alphabetical order, abebooks.com, alibris.com, amazon.com, ...

Also 8.5x11" SB A Users Guide to the VIEW CAMERA by Jim Stone, which I find a little bit more used friendly, but any of the books will serve you well....

[Dan Fromm]

Funny that you should mention Stone's book, Greg. The French LF forum recommends it highly even though it is in English. "In my opinion the best book about view camera practice."

[William Whitaker]

...The Vague Mecum...

Cute! As if I don't already have trouble enough with Latin! ;)

[vssoutlet]

Recessed may do it. I do love the 90mm angulon