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IanBarber
2-Feb-2017, 03:04
My current lens is a Rodenstock Sironar - N MC f/5.6
160717

Then lens I have been offered

SINAR SINARON S F5.6 150MM
160718

My reason for wanting to change.

I bought the Rodenstock Sironar - N when I first got into LF.

The lens appears to work fine but appears to be soft around the edges. Now this could just be the quality of the scan from the Epson V800. I do seem to use Rise and Fall quite a bit on my Chamonix 045N-2 but from whatt I can gather, I am not loosing any image circle because even at maximum rise, I can still see all 4 corners of the ground glass when looking through the front of the lens.

Can anyone advise as to whether the SINAR SINARON S F5.6 150MM would be a better lens. The seller is asking about $355 (280) for it

Ian

pjd
2-Feb-2017, 03:17
There's an old discussion here:

http://www.apug.org/forum/index.php?threads/what-is-the-difference-between-sinaron-and-sironar-lenses.16395/

Which may or may not be helpful. What aperture are you using your current lens at? There are lots of options in that focal length, so don't be too hasty with a purchase. I'm sure lots of people will give you advice here...I'm happy with an uncoated 15cm Tessar! I'm not chasing optimum sharpness though, others will be far better qualified than me to offer advice.

Bob Salomon
2-Feb-2017, 03:39
The Sinaron S is the exact same lens as the Apo Sironar N. if you want to improve you need the Apo Sironar S. The Sironar N MC was relabeled the Apo Sironar N when the Apo Sironar S series was introduced. The Apo Sironar was renamed the Apo Sironar W at the same time.

IanBarber
2-Feb-2017, 04:06
The Sinaron S is the exact same lens as the Apo Sironar N. if you want to improve you need the Apo Sironar S. The Sironar N MC was relabeled the Apo Sironar N when the Apo Sironar S series was introduced. The Apo Sironar was renamed the Apo Sironar W at the same time.

Gosh... they dont make it easy do they.

If I have read you right, you are saying that the lens been offered is probably no better than the one I already have apart from its appearance ?

IanG
2-Feb-2017, 04:16
You've already got a superb lens, stick with it. I've had my 150mm Sironar N for about 30 years and wouldn't think of changing it. Bob's saying it's a rebadged version of the same lens.

I don't know what apertures you're using LF lenses are optimised for f22 and that't affect edge/corner sharpness.

Ian

IanBarber
2-Feb-2017, 04:17
You've already got a superb lens, stick with it. I've had my 150mm Sironar N for about 30 years and wouldn't think of changing it.

Ian

Thanks Ian - Thats sorted then :)

Luis-F-S
2-Feb-2017, 07:17
Always blame your photographic shortcomings on the equipment !!

Bob Salomon
2-Feb-2017, 07:36
You've already got a superb lens, stick with it. I've had my 150mm Sironar N for about 30 years and wouldn't think of changing it. Bob's saying it's a rebadged version of the same lens.

I don't know what apertures you're using LF lenses are optimised for f22 and that't affect edge/corner sharpness.

Ian

Yes, it is a rebadged version of the Apo Sironar N but it is also an older one. So they newer ones might be a better performer, marginally.

Luis-F-S
2-Feb-2017, 07:48
So they newer ones might be a better performer, marginally.

I think the key word here is "marginally".

IanBarber
2-Feb-2017, 08:14
Yes, it is a rebadged version of the Apo Sironar N but it is also an older one. So they newer ones might be a better performer, marginally.

The Rodenstock Sironar - N MC f/5.6 is the rebadged or the SINAR SINARON S F5.6 150MM is the rebadged

Dan Fromm
2-Feb-2017, 08:33
The Rodenstock Sironar - N MC f/5.6 is the rebadged or the SINAR SINARON S F5.6 150MM is the rebadged

Rodenstock makes lenses. Sinar makes cameras.

IanG
2-Feb-2017, 08:54
Sinar have never made lenses, so is the rebadged version.

Ian

ic-racer
2-Feb-2017, 09:05
soft around the edges. Now this could just be the quality of the scan

Is there some way to get your negatives back from the people scanning them if they have not thrown them away already.

IanG
2-Feb-2017, 09:17
Is there some way to get your negatives back from the people scanning them if they have not thrown them away already.

He's scanning them himself. I think you'll find he's sometimes shooting at wider apertures and so this drop of is to be expected.

Ian

Larry Gebhardt
2-Feb-2017, 11:15
My understanding is the Sinar Sinaron SE is the rebadged version of the Sironar S.

IanBarber
2-Feb-2017, 11:19
He's scanning them himself. I think you'll find he's sometimes shooting at wider apertures and so this drop of is to be expected.

Ian

I didn't realise f/22 was the optimal aperture for large format, I have been using f/11 quite a bit, maybe I need to stop down, f/22 or smaller

Luis-F-S
2-Feb-2017, 11:27
I didn't realise f/22 was the optimal aperture for large format, I have been using f/11 quite a bit, maybe I needed to stop down, f/22 or smaller

Only for modern lens; many classic lenses are f/45 or smaller.

IanG
2-Feb-2017, 11:37
Only for modern lens many classic lenses are F 45 or smaller

Carl Zeiss Jena recommended f22 for their LF lenses particularly the Tessar I use a CZJ 150mm f4.5 T (coated) Tessar and at f16 there's a slight softening at the corners compared to f22, quite noticeable by f11. f32 starts to have diffraction limitations on sharpness.

With the Sironars and Symmars f22 is the optimal aperture.



I didn't realise f/22 was the optimal aperture for large format, I have been using f/11 quite a bit, maybe I need to stop down, f/22 or smaller

You will notice a significant difference at f22 compared to f11 if you're looking for overall sharpness.

Ian

Luis-F-S
2-Feb-2017, 11:45
Dagors f/45! Just keep on using f/11.

Tobias Key
2-Feb-2017, 15:58
Carl Zeiss Jena recommended f22 for their LF lenses particularly the Tessar I use a CZJ 150mm f4.5 T (coated) Tessar and at f16 there's a slight softening at the corners compared to f22, quite noticeable by f11. f32 starts to have diffraction limitations on sharpness.

With the Sironars and Symmars f22 is the optimal aperture.




You will notice a significant difference at f22 compared to f11 if you're looking for overall sharpness.

Ian

Large format photography, or how I learned to stop worrying and love f22!

Personally I found I solved a lot of problems with my portraiture when I stopped down more. I have an Irving Penn book with an exposure record from one of his fashion shoots. He shot everything at F22 with a Hassleblad! These days you would be castigated for doing this. I tried to find some info about Dan Winter's 4x5 portraiture and as far as i can tell he used F32 for most of his work but internet 'experts' would tell you you shouldn't do this.

Maybe we should go back to testing ourselves, trusting our eyes and not listening to others. For all we know most of the people on this forum might not even own a camera!

Bob Salomon
2-Feb-2017, 16:50
I didn't realise f/22 was the optimal aperture for large format, I have been using f/11 quite a bit, maybe I need to stop down, f/22 or smaller

Not smaller, your lens is diffraction limited at 22. At infinity that will give you the largest useable image circle with the least distortion, the highest resolution, the best color and at any smaller aperture you will be into diffraction.

jesse
2-Feb-2017, 23:40
f22 is a working aperture for large format camera, for bigger than 4x5, i.e. 8x10, I will use f32.

IanG
3-Feb-2017, 04:25
Large format photography, or how I learned to stop worrying and love f22!

Personally I found I solved a lot of problems with my portraiture when I stopped down more. I have an Irving Penn book with an exposure record from one of his fashion shoots. He shot everything at F22 with a Hassleblad! These days you would be castigated for doing this. I tried to find some info about Dan Winter's 4x5 portraiture and as far as i can tell he used F32 for most of his work but internet 'experts' would tell you you shouldn't do this.

Maybe we should go back to testing ourselves, trusting our eyes and not listening to others. For all we know most of the people on this forum might not even own a camera!

I think you're right, it's about knowing your lenses and equipment and particularly how lenses perform at different apertures. While Bob Salomon states the Sironar is diffraction limited past f22 you need to know how well your lens will behave at f32, f45 etc, there may well be other reason such as a need to maximise DOF to use them.

Some years ago there was a post here where someone had listed the apertures used by John Sexton, taken from data given about each photo in a book and while most were at f22 some were at f32 and a few at f45.

On occasions I will shoot wider than f22, there are times when you want shallow DOF or want to let the corners/edges of an image be soft/less sharp. I found when first starting to shoot LF hand held that f11 was unacceptable for my landscape work, where I needed good overall sharpness - centre sharpness would be excellent but the edges and corners soft, at f16 edge sharpness was acceptable but not as good as f22. While this was with a Tessar it's much the same with my Sironar and Symmars which are slightly better at f16.

Ian