Lerebours a Paris Lens (not & Secretan)

[photogenie]

Hi All,
I have a lens in a brass casing, the only marks that I can find is as per picture, the picture shows all the parts and the assembled lens, I think it is a Petzval lens.
The assembled item measures 9cm across, fully extended the height is 20cm. The weight of this object is 1.250kg
I can not detect any markings on the lens itself to identify it.
I would be grateful for any help.

[Emil Schildt]

what picture?

[photogenie]

what picture?

160621160622160623

sorry new to this forgot pictures. oops.

[Steven Tribe]

Lerebours existed for some time before he joined up with Secretan!

Looks like a largish Landscape meniscus lens, with a rather complex front aperture system.
Just the single rear lens?

I am separated by over 1000 km from my French lens books until Saturday night, but perhaps Emil or others can give it a date and "type". No doubt but it is absolutely genuine, they didn't have serial numbers.

The rack and pinion system has been abandoned and the rack filled up with solder.

I assume that the lens cell shown fits just one end of the longest/narrowest barrel? The 20cm length for this barrel is a lot for a landscape lens. If the two aperture pieces fit down in the middle of the barrel, then it has been a Prezval, but the real cell is missing.

[photogenie]

Lerebours existed for some time before he joined up with Secretan!

Looks like a largish Landscape meniscus lens, with a rather complex front aperture system.
Just the single rear lens?

I am separated by over 1000 km from my French lens books until Saturday night, but perhaps Emil or others can give it a date and "type". No doubt but it is absolutely genuine, they didn't have serial numbers.

The rack and pinion system has been abandoned and the rack filled up with solder.

I assume that the lens cell shown fits just one end of the longest/narrowest barrel? The 20cm length for this barrel is a lot for a landscape lens. If the two aperture pieces fit down in the middle of the barrel, then it has been a Prezval, but the real cell is missing.

The tube which fits into the larger unit is approx 11cm long the 20cm measurement is the full height when the inner barrel is extended,
the lens cell (the large glass lens) fits into the narrowest barrel, the smallest part screws into the larger shallow section and this fits inside the narrow tube,
I am sorry this is something I know little about, but I appreciate your help with this, if you need more information, please ask. Thank you.

[goamules]

I can tell you that this is probably a very early lens. Lerebours was joined by Secretan about 1845, so this could be from about 1841. That's very early in the optical world.

[goamules]

Also, look closely on the face of the glass near the edge (not the actual edge). Some Lerebours were scratched with tiny writing, showing the serial number. Yours is so early, there is no serial number probably, but I'd like to know if anything is written on the edge of the glass, like here:

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3891/14846043939_66f8421d90_b.jpg

[photogenie]

Also, look closely on the face of the glass near the edge (not the actual edge). Some Lerebours were scratched with tiny writing, showing the serial number. Yours is so early, there is no serial number probably, but I'd like to know if anything is written on the edge of the glass, like here:

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3891/14846043939_66f8421d90_b.jpg

I have used my loupe but can not find any etching on the lens.

[Steven Tribe]

Even though there is no serial number engraved on the barrel, there could be a number scratched on the glass as Garrett (Who has done quite a lot of research with this!) has mentioned. Which would, in fact, be a serial number. Those usually seen on Lerebours et Secretan have been four digits, but never very low figures. It would interesting if the Lerebours used this system before the long term association with Secretan. Although this achromat lens has probably been "serviced" a few times during its lifetime, there may still be traces of pencil writing around the concealed edge of glass. Like watchmakers, early optician techicians often made notes on concealed brass surfaces in very fine "needlework".

We try not to use on-going auctions/buyitnow on Ebay. But, at the present time, there is a very wide selection of Lerebours et Secretan landscape lenses on offer. None of these have very good descriptions and all speculatively priced in my view! At least one has been incorrectly assembled! But there is a good range of component parts shown in detailed photos and one is quite near your type with rack and pinion. Worth a study.

[photogenie]

Even though there is no serial number engraved on the barrel, there could be a number scratched on the glass as Garrett (Who has done quite a lot of research with this!) has mentioned. Which would, in fact, be a serial number. Those usually seen on Lerebours et Secretan have been four digits, but never very low figures. It would interesting if the Lerebours used this system before the long term association with Secretan. Although this achromat lens has probably been "serviced" a few times during its lifetime, there may still be traces of pencil writing around the concealed edge of glass. Like watchmakers, early optician techicians often made notes on concealed brass surfaces in very fine "needlework".

We try not to use on-going auctions/buyitnow on Ebay. But, at the present time, there is a very wide selection of Lerebours et Secretan landscape lenses on offer. None of these have very good descriptions and all speculatively priced in my view! At least one has been incorrectly assembled! But there is a good range of component parts shown in detailed photos and one is quite near your type with rack and pinion. Worth a study.

Thank you Steven, I am not sure that I should remove the brass casing from the lens as I fear I may damage the item, I am of course trying to find out as much information as possible with a view to selling the item, I will look at Ebay and see if I can find the one you have mentioned.

[Steven Tribe]

NO NO, don't try and remove the glass lens!!

The text can often be seen/read with light from the outside at a certain angle.
This isn't the first landscape lens type made by Lerebours - that one had levers in front and engraving on the lid. So probably close to the Secretan arrival in 1845. Like other pioneers, he was a well known instrument maker, which might explain the "heavy duty" appearance of the apertures!

[jaytral]

It could be an upgrade of a "Systeme Gaudin" achromatic lens, or a early version of the "Objectif pour vues".. But the missing pinion makes me think toward Gaudin

[photogenie]

Thank you Steven, I am not sure that I should remove the brass casing from the lens as I fear I may damage the item, I am of course trying to find out as much information as possible with a view to selling the item, I will look at Ebay and see if I can find the one you have mentioned.

I have had another look and not sure if these are just random scratches or etchings, but I have added pictures, different photo's of same thing, not sure if this is helpful, sorry no decent camera to hand just now.160669160670160671160672

[Steven Tribe]

These are the numbers Garrett mentioned!

You have now contributed to the history of early French lenses!

I read this as 3175. Certainly a 3 to start with!

I think I am right in saying that known Lerebours et Secretan lens serial numbers are above 4000.

[goamules]

Excellent to know Lerebours did this tiny writing early on. Again, I'm assuming your lenses is an early one. Thanks for looking and photographing it. So it appears he was engraving serial numbers even if the brass barrel didn't have one.

[photogenie]

Excellent to know Lerebours did this tiny writing early on. Again, I'm assuming your lenses is an early one. Thanks for looking and photographing it. So it appears he was engraving serial numbers even if the brass barrel didn't have one.

I am so pleased to learn more about this lens, I have had it for a number of years and it has been merely a curiosity.

[Steven Tribe]

Sorry about this late hours, but the flight from Spain was delayed.

A quick look (in the D'agostini book) doesn't give any definite answer.

- it doesn't look like it is the Systeme Gaudin lens made by Lerebours. This has either no focussing or the radial system.
- it doesn't look like the normal pre-1845 engraving for Lerebours, which the signature type.
- the first engraved serial number I can find is 2125 which is also engraved Lerebours et Secretan.
- there is an early Lerebours et Secretan (without brass serial number engraving) which identical brass typography to yours , but with both names.

I will check again to-morrow, but I have the feeling that yours was produced in the L & S era (post 1845) but for some reason (older specific design?) was attributed to just Lerebours! There is a parallel mix-up in the transition for Jamin to Darlot in their optician business.

[photogenie]

Sorry about this late hours, but the flight from Spain was delayed.

A quick look (in the D'agostini book) doesn't give any definite answer.

- it doesn't look like it is the Systeme Gaudin lens made by Lerebours. This has either no focussing or the radial system.
- it doesn't look like the normal pre-1845 engraving for Lerebours, which the signature type.
- the first engraved serial number I can find is 2125 which is also engraved Lerebours et Secretan.
- there is an early Lerebours et Secretan (without brass serial number engraving) which identical brass typography to yours , but with both names.

I will check again to-morrow, but I have the feeling that yours was produced in the L & S era (post 1845) but for some reason (older specific design?) was attributed to just Lerebours! There is a parallel mix-up in the transition for Jamin to Darlot in their optician business.

Well, I am again confused, with conflicting information it seems that I am far from identifying this object correctly, I wonder could it be that the actual lens and the casing are a marriage from two different eras perhaps ?

[Steven Tribe]

No marriage!

What I am saying is:

1. It is made in the period after Lerebours and Secretan joined up (post 1845). This is because there exist L & S lenses with a lower serial number than yours and the graphic style of the engraving is the one adopted by L & S.

2. Probably engraved with Lerebours name alone, because it is a earlier design that either Lerebours was particulary proud of - Or a design that Secretan did not want to be associated with!

What would be useful, is how the solid looking aperture stops fit in the barrel. Better single photos of these would also be interesting.

There is a new (2017) publication from le Reve publishing by Pont & Princelle which Lerebours et Secretan in detain which may shed more light on your model. But I will be getting this around my birthday later this year (I hope!).

Quality of photos is poor, partly out of respect for the copyright holders!
First one shows the pre-1845 style, and the second one, the style immediately post 1845.

I have to say that it may be impossible to come nearer an identification. The 1840's was a period of rapid development of photography. Makers were not very sales oriented and they didn't publish very much information. What we know about early products is very piecemeal and is often based on single lenses attached to early cameras, may not represent all the versions actually made.

[photogenie]

I can provide pictures of the individual parts or pictures of the interior of the assembly if this helps.
Kind regards.