Source for wet mounting fluid in Los Angeles/San Fernando Valley

[David Karp]

Do any of you in the Los Angeles area have a local source where you can purchase Kami or other wet mounting fluid? The San Fernando Valley, Glendale, or Pasadena areas would be ideal, if you know of an outlet. The sources I have found online have pretty high shipping charges that I would like to avoid if possible.

Thanks!

[LabRat]

The go-to is Aztek in (I think) Irvine...

949/770-8787 Or www.aztek.com

Good luck!!!

Steve K

[Doug Fisher]

As I note on my page for economical fluid mounting supplies (http://www.betterscanning.com/scanning/cheapfluidmounting.html), GWJ seemed to have somewhat reasonable shipping prices the last time I checked. They are in La Quinta, CA. Aztek is in Irvine, CA.

I would look into using Gamsol. It is reasonably priced and very likely available at your local art supply store. People smarter than I have looked up its composition on the data safety sheets and after comparing to $$$ Lumina they feel Lumina is probably just repackaged Gamsol.

Doug Fisher

[David Karp]

Thanks Doug and Steve. I will look into Gamsol. I was hoping I could do a pickup, but if I go the Kami route with delivery I have not found any source better than GWJ. Thanks for that.

[David Karp]

From the MSDS it looks like Gamsol is basically Naptha. The Kami MSDS shows that it is <90% Naptha. Kami also has <10% mineral spirits <4% n-Hexane. Lumina's MSDS says it is 100% Paraffin Petroleum Distillate.

On the Gamsol MSDS, just below its identification of "Hydrotreated heavy naphtha" it states: "It consists predominantly of C11-C13 isoparaffinic hydrocarbons."

According to the MSDS sheets, it appears that Gamsol (145 degrees F) and Lumina (111 degrees F) have different flash points. Kami's flash point is much lower (16 degrees F). ("The lowest temperature at which a liquid can form an ignitable mixture in air near the surface of the liquid. The lower the flash point, the easier it is to ignite the material." https://www.msdsonline.com/resources/msds-resources/glossary-of-terms/flashpoint.aspx)

I found a Coleman lantern fuel msds that says it is 100% Naptha with a flash point of 0 degrees F. (Interestingly, there are other msds sheets that appear to list the ingredients using more generic or technical terms. So, it may be 100% Naptha, or the composition has changed.) So, apparently, different Naptha products have different flash points.

I am not a chemist, but it does look like Gamsol and Lumina are very similar (and I guess Coleman fuel is too). Perhaps the difference in flash points is based on the degree to which these petroleum products are refined. Any chemists or experts out there?

I might give Gamsol a try. Artists use Gamsol to clean brushes. It seems no more dangerous to me than lots of other things used around the house. I can test it on a bad negative and see what happens.

This is not a suggestion to anyone to try it. Sometimes I found different MSDS for the same item. They are not identical. Do your own research.

[Pali K]

Gamsol Oderless Mineral Spirit works great and is available at Michaels art store for $10 for 8 oz and $15 for 16 oz. Use a coupon and get it even cheaper :)

Pali

[Jeff T]

Pali, how do you clean up Gamsol once done scanning?


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[Pere Casals]

From the MSDS it looks like Gamsol is basically Naptha.


Gamsol Oderless Mineral Spirit works great and is available at Michaels art store for $10 for 8 oz and $15 for 16 oz. Use a coupon and get it even cheaper :)

Pali


Good to know that Gamsol Oderless Mineral Spirit works great. I'm to try it.

One important property of an alternative mounting fluid it is has to evaporate completely, so it has to be a well distillated quality product without diluted heavy chains that won't evaporate later.

One may drop some on a clear glass to later inspect if some mark can be seen.



Mineral spirit Refractive index is 1.42 aprox. Keronsene (Naphtha) is mostly the same 1.44. And Flatbed's glass can have 1.5. It is good that the refrative index of the fluid is near to the glass one...


I guess that branded scanning fluid will always have some 1.44 refractive index, adding that 10% of white spirit (C7 to C12) just acts as a thinner of the nafta (C16) perhaps to be better distributed and to catch less air bubbles, I'm gessing.

It would be interesting using a refractometer to measure branded fluid refractive index.

[LabRat]

At the last Meet & Greet here, I was talking to Evan Lippincott from Aztek, and I had asked him what happens to the film after wet scanning, and he said that their fluid was primarily Naphtha, and could be easily cleaned from film, so maybe you can buy a can of Naphtha from the home store and give it a try???

Steve K

[Pere Casals]

At the last Meet & Greet here, I was talking to Evan Lippincott from Aztek, and I had asked him what happens to the film after wet scanning, and he said that their fluid was primarily Naphtha, and could be easily cleaned from film, so maybe you can buy a can of Naphtha from the home store and give it a try???

Steve K

Hello Steve,

Cleaning film later is a nasty operation, also you can damage film, and one can spend more in the cleaning fluid than the few drops of a branded scanning fluid would cost.

(the cleaning fluid has to evaporate without residue, so better to use a residue less mounting fluid...)

Bare Naphta is a product primarily made to burn. A low concentration of difficult to evaporate fraction will be nasty, so a desirable mounting fluid has to lack heavy chains and some specially toxic compounds.

So bare Naphta will work but IMHO it's not desirable. Anyway manufacturing a more refined product it has low industrial costs, so IMHO Gamsol Oderless Mineral Spirit or the like is for sure a better option.

Regards,

Pere

[David Karp]

After further research, I found a lot of information, including past forum posts. This is the first time I have seen Gamsol mentioned. From all of these bits of information it seems that a question is the purity of the medium used for liquid mounting. Ronsonol, which was at least at one time mostly Naptha, was also recommended. The counter to that sort of recommendation (besides flammibility - but see flash points above) is the possibility that additives or other substances in the product might be dangerous to the film. Alternatively, if not dangerous, they may leave a residue on the film that will be difficult to remove. So, to the exent that the fluid in question is pure, without any potentially harmful or hard to clean components, and otherwise safe, it seems that a Naptha product is a real possibility.

All of this is just me thinking out loud. If I was selling prints or thinking about selling prints I would just buy Kami or Lumina. It would be part of the cost of doing business. I don't even have time to think about that even if I wanted to sell prints. Between the cost of paper, ink, the printer and scanner I recently purchased, and other items, I have a lot of money invested. A safe, reliable and less expensive consumable would be nice at this point!

Plus, I hate to spend $$$$ when I could spend $ for the same thing, if indeed it is the same thing. I used to buy Arista Professional from Freestyle because it was HP5+ for less. I purchased as many 100 sheet boxes as I could afford when Ilford went into receivership and froze them. I just used up the last sheets of that film. I guess it is just my attitude about things.

Pali, does the Gamsol completely evaporate? Does it leave any residue? Do you have to clean the negatives?

Thanks everyone.

[David Karp]

For what it is worth, this is what it says about Gamsol on their website:

"Most solvents available to artists come from the industrial paint industry where solvent power and cheapness is prized. Gamsol is special: it is made for products and processes that come into more intimate contact with the body such as cosmetics, hand cleaners, and cleaning food service equipment."

"Gamsol is a petroleum distillate but all the aromatic solvents have been refined out of it, less than .005% remains. Aromatic solvents are the most harmful types of petroleum solvents."

"Gamsol’s flash point is so high it can ship via air cargo as a non-hazardous material."

I think I am going to give it a whirl.

https://www.gamblincolors.com/oil-painting/gamsol/

Here is the msds: https://www.gamblincolors.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/SDS-Gamsol.pdf

[Pere Casals]

For what it is worth, this is what it says about Gamsol on their website:

Today I've tested this one, I bought it in a shop near home:

http://www.artemiranda.es/diluyente-sin-olor-para-oleo-titan/3946

I guees it's near the same than Glamsol.

This is TITAN DILUYENTE OLEO, this is an spanish brand of oil painting thinner. Label says it contains C9, C12, C11, C15 isoparaffins. Cost is €5 per 100ml.

Perfect result, absolutely no residue seen on a glass, complete evaporation.

...but if one buys 4L of kami it is way cheaper per 100ml... also if one buys a large ammount of purified thinner it goes cheaper.

[David Karp]

That is interesting.

I have the Gamsol, purchased at Michael's. I am awaiting some Dura Lar, a brayer, and a few other odds and ends and I will be ready to wet scan. Fingers crossed.

While on the topic, I was thinking earlier today that if anyone ever told me I would be purposely putting a refined petroleum product on my negatives I would have laughed at them. I always wanted to keep them clean, dry and away from any chemical once they were developed!

[David Karp]

Thank you Doug. Your suggestions for getting into wet scanning affordably are very helpful. I put together a set with Gamsol (16.7 ounces), tape, a brayer, .003 Dura Lar (in place of Mylar - suggested on this site by Sandy King and I believe similar to your suggestion on your site), some Kim Wipes, and a couple of squeeze bottles for just over $40. Now, all I need is some time . . . .

[Doug Fisher]

>> for just over $40.<<

$40 is awesome. Last time I bought it, Kami wanted around $35 just for shipping a bottle of Kami fluid (not including buying the fluid itself)!

Doug

[Pali K]

Pali, how do you clean up Gamsol once done scanning?


...

Pali, does the Gamsol completely evaporate? Does it leave any residue? Do you have to clean the negatives?

...

Sorry everyone, I haven't been around much due to deadlines at work. I have used Gamsol for the last 2-3 months and I honestly cannot tell any different between Gamsol and LUMINA (from ScanScience). I have also heard similar feedback on Gamsol from other drum scanner users who claim the same. Gamsol dries clean and the only residue that you will need to worry about is going to be from any dirty surfaces (glass/drum/clear film) and/or tape glue that may not be resistant to Gamsol. For my scans, I make sure that I mount the negative so it's far from any tape residue and the drum surface is clean and I never have to worry about cleaning my negatives after scanning. I simply take them off the drum and hang them on film hangers for a few minutes and they are always perfectly clean once dry.

In my experience, I find that Gamsol (and LUMINA) dry slower than Kami but not by much. Kami tends to dry completely from a negative within in a minute or so where Gamsol will takes 2-3 minutes to dry.

[David Karp]

Thanks Pali. That is very helpful.

Doug, I purchased a 16.9 ounce bottle of Gamsol from Michael's. Their regular price is for that size is $22.99. I had a 40% off coupon, so it cost me around $14, including tax. :-)

I double checked. I guessed a little bit low. The total was around $44.

Now, all I need to find is time!

[sanking]

Good source on the east coast for Gamsol is Jerry' Artarama. http://jerrysartarama.com

Gamsol Odorless Mineral Spirits 32 Oz, Item Number 62364
Sale price right now of $13.47, plus shipping.

Or buy a gallon for $35.97.

Sandy

[Jeff T]

Dick Blick in Pasadena, CA has Gamsol 16 oz at $18, their online will ship ground 1 gallon at $35.97 plus $5 shipping fee. I am going to get a bottle for my next scans.