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1erCru
24-Jan-2017, 10:09
I've decided to take the plunge and purchase a 4by5 LF. The camera will mainly be for studio use. I'd like to be able to use a strobe with " normal" sync speeds. I've read about a few systems but the flash sync speeds were very low ( I could be misinformed and this was a Sinar P ). I mainly shoot sculpture and still life that I create. I'd like to be able to take it outdoors but this is not critical. I'm interested in a Horseman LX but maybe " ease of use " if there is such a thing with these types of cameras should be an important consideration.

Any other advice or suggestions would be appreciated.

DrTang
24-Jan-2017, 10:30
if your in a darkish studio.. flash sync speed isn't an issue..1/30, 1/15 - it's all good..outdoors is a different story though

DG 3313
24-Jan-2017, 10:31
The lenses for view cameras( that are in shutters) are leaf shutters and sync at all speeds. There may be exceptions but, the normal shutters will work for you. The Sinar P is for image management only(I've heard it called a film transport system). The Sinar is a fine camera...I have an F2. Ease of use it a huge thing and I'm sure you will get plenty of hits on this thread. Welcome!

The shutter you heard about may be behind the lens and that would explain the slow sync speed. Get a lens that is mounted in a shutter.

IanG
24-Jan-2017, 10:36
Modern LF lenses come in leaf shutters and electronic flash sync is at any speed unlike focal plane shutters.

Ian

Alan Gales
24-Jan-2017, 11:06
A monorail like the Sinar P is considered a studio camera. Along with a 210mm f/5.6 lens in a modern Copal shutter I think it should be perfect for shooting sculpture. If you want a cheaper monorail than Sinar you should also look at Cambo/Calumet or Toyo.

You can take it outside but it's heavy and bulky. You wouldn't want to hike with it in a backpack. Also the bigger and heavier the camera the bigger and heavier the tripod you need.

1erCru
24-Jan-2017, 12:19
A monorail like the Sinar P is considered a studio camera. Along with a 210mm f/5.6 lens in a modern Copal shutter I think it should be perfect for shooting sculpture. If you want a cheaper monorail than Sinar you should also look at Cambo/Calumet or Toyo.

You can take it outside but it's heavy and bulky. You wouldn't want to hike with it in a backpack. Also the bigger and heavier the camera the bigger and heavier the tripod you need.

Thanks for the responses guys. In regards to the Sinar F / P I'm still confused about flash sync. Is it the same type connection that would hook into a Mamiya Sekor lens? I guess what I want to know is that if I connect a in front of the camera lens to a Sinar F / P will I be able to sync at 125-250 considering it's a leaf shutter ?

DrTang
24-Jan-2017, 12:27
maybe and yes..if the shutter goes that high

old, big shutters sometimes use a bi-post connection - never fear..Paramount still makes new cords for them

likewise..some older, bigger shutters top out at 100 or 60th - again, not a problem in a studio inside

those sinar shutters only go to 60th I think..or mine does anyway

Luis-F-S
24-Jan-2017, 12:46
A monorail like the Sinar P is considered a studio camera. Along with a 210mm f/5.6 lens in a modern Copal shutter I think it should be perfect for shooting sculpture. If you want a cheaper monorail than Sinar you should also look at Cambo/Calumet or Toyo.

I'd get a Sinar F2. It's much lighter than the P, cheaper and readily available in the used market! L

1erCru
24-Jan-2017, 13:49
So I can throw any LF in front of the camera lens into a Sinar F2 ( I assume it has to have a compatible Sinar lens board ) and be ready to shoot? Also if the lens is a leaf shutter why would I be limited to 1/60?

Excuse me if these are dumb questions, I tend to ask tons of them until I run out of them

charleymeyer
24-Jan-2017, 13:58
The Sinar Copal shutter has a maximum speed of 1/60th, that's the limitation with that particular shutter or many other large leaf shutters..

Alan Gales
24-Jan-2017, 14:06
Thanks for the responses guys. In regards to the Sinar F / P I'm still confused about flash sync. Is it the same type connection that would hook into a Mamiya Sekor lens? I guess what I want to know is that if I connect a in front of the camera lens to a Sinar F / P will I be able to sync at 125-250 considering it's a leaf shutter ?

Modern shutters take the same sync cord as your Mamiya lens. I own a Mamiya C220f myself.

Top speed depends upon the shutter. I've got a Copal that goes up to 1/400 second and a Press Copal that goes to 1/125 second. I've got a Compur that goes up to 1/500 second.

My other shutters take the bi post flash sync.

Luis-F-S
24-Jan-2017, 14:08
So I can throw any LF in front of the camera lens into a Sinar F2 ( I assume it has to have a compatible Sinar lens board ) and be ready to shoot? Also if the lens is a leaf shutter why would I be limited to 1/60?

As long at it will fit on a Sinar board and you have enough bellows to focus. All Sinar boards are compatible. Lenses are mounted on different shutters according to the cell sizes. The largest lenses only fit in a Copal 3 or larger shutter, the smaller ones in Copal 0 or 1's. Copal/Compur 1 shutters go to 1/500, Copal 1 shutters go to 1/400 sec, Copal 3's to 1/125. These "fastest" values are typically off by 1 or more stops. L

Alan Gales
24-Jan-2017, 14:11
I'd get a Sinar F2. It's much lighter than the P, cheaper and readily available in the used market! L

I've owned a P and an F which I bought to part out. I agree that if the OP is going to use it outside a lot he may prefer the F2 but inside the P is such a joy to use.

From what I have seen on Ebay, P's and F2's go for pretty close to the same money because the F2 is a newer camera. Now the P2 is another story.

Alan Gales
24-Jan-2017, 14:23
A Sinar Copal shutter is a special shutter that fits behind the front standard of a Sinar camera. You either use lenses in special DB boards with this shutter or some like to use old barrel lenses with the Sinar Shutter. The Sinar shutter is an "extra" and you don't need one. Just use regular Sinar boards and the shutter that comes with your lens. Sinar Shutters are nice to have though.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Sinar+Copal+shutter+images&biw=1119&bih=641&tbm=isch&imgil=sSDYtmh-m0abrM%253A%253BOY-dJRiusnIPdM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fphoto.net%25252Flarge-format-photography-forum%25252F00U7lg&source=iu&pf=m&fir=sSDYtmh-m0abrM%253A%252COY-dJRiusnIPdM%252C_&usg=__UPjkW5FMMTffcQGakMNKdXBL-Jg%3D&ved=0ahUKEwjDv4DQ2tvRAhVF74MKHX7VAZ8QyjcIMw&ei=wcSHWIPbGMXejwT-qof4CQ#imgrc=sSDYtmh-m0abrM%3A

David Lobato
24-Jan-2017, 18:05
if the lens is a leaf shutter why would I be limited to 1/60?

Excuse me if these are dumb questions, I tend to ask tons of them until I run out of them

LF shutters come in different sizes to match the lens size. Copal shutters come in three sizes, 0, 1, and 3. Copal 0 is the smallest and has a 1/500 top speed. Copal 1 has a 1/400 top speed. Copal 3 shutters are for the largest lenses and have top speed of 1/125. These are fastest speeds possible in each shutter. Electronic Flash (X) sync is at all speeds for each Copal shutter.

check here for a wealth of information on shutters
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/shutters.html

1erCru
24-Jan-2017, 21:37
Guys thanks for the response. The information helped a great deal. The infront of the camera lens / behind the camera lens / Sinar aperture shutter threw me off.

I'm not scared of being able to operate the camera , I'm scared I'll order incompatible parts!

David Schaller
25-Jan-2017, 12:37
So I can throw any LF in front of the camera lens into a Sinar F2 ( I assume it has to have a compatible Sinar lens board ) and be ready to shoot? Also if the lens is a leaf shutter why would I be limited to 1/60?

Excuse me if these are dumb questions, I tend to ask tons of them until I run out of them

Yes, if you spend some time around this forum you will see people using lenses from the 19th century quite often, for example. In large format the lens just needs to be mounted on a board specific to the camera, but the lens itself is not specific to the camera. Modern lenses are often in Copal shutters, which top out at different speeds. Most lenses don't go faster than a nominal 1/250 or maybe 1/400, but as others have said, they sync at every speed.

1erCru
25-Jan-2017, 16:51
Looks like I'm the new owner next owner of a Sinar F2. Camera looks in good shape and comes with a copal 0 board.

Lost of things to get ( feel free to chime in )

Sturdy tripod ( I have this )
Remote release cord
Lens ( set on a 210 also want something with wider coverage )
Lens board matching lens
4by5 film holders ( are these Sinar Specific holders or will any work )
Film

Anything else ?

DG 3313
25-Jan-2017, 21:30
Good camera....short rail:

You may want a rail extension (for longer lenses or close-ups), bag bellows (for wide angle work 125mm and shorter), magnifier to check the focus on the GG, Dark cloth, empty film boxes to unload holders into, you will need a copal 1 for the 210mm lens (most likely), a case or rubber-mate tub to transport the camera (fully assembled), patience and lots and lots of film. Cut film holders are universal.

1erCru
31-Jan-2017, 09:35
I ended up getting a Sinar P. i also picked up a Schneider APO Symmar 210. I assume the shutter release is built into the lens. Will my Mamiya RZ67 cable release work to trip the shutter?

Thanks again!

Alan Gales
31-Jan-2017, 10:44
Congratulations on your new camera and lens.

There is a threaded metal connector on your shutter into which you screw in a standard cable release.

Your RZ will accept a standard cable release, a dual cable release or an electronic cable release. If you use a standard cable release on the RZ then it will also work with your Schneider 210mm lens shutter.

1erCru
17-Feb-2017, 22:59
Took my first negative. I used Ektar but mistakenly lit the shot with LED. LED lights were never particularly kind to my Mamiya RZ. The 4x5 negative was a tad thin and overall the detail was almost the same as the same shot taken with a pristine Mamiya negative.

Except for the fact that the 4x5 was twice as large. The Mamiya scan at 200% looked the same as the 4x5 at 100%. I think I scanned the Mamiya negative at a higher res to. This would suggest to me that the 11x14 print of that shot could easily be doubled in dimension.

All in all I'm pleased. The Sinar is light tight and the lens functions. The negative wasn't great but that was my error. Going to developers some stuff actually shot with proper lighting and develop this week.

chassis
18-Feb-2017, 07:03
Well done! Let's see some of your work in the image sharing sections!

rdenney
24-Feb-2017, 11:00
Took my first negative. I used Ektar but mistakenly lit the shot with LED. LED lights were never particularly kind to my Mamiya RZ. The 4x5 negative was a tad thin and overall the detail was almost the same as the same shot taken with a pristine Mamiya negative.

Except for the fact that the 4x5 was twice as large. The Mamiya scan at 200% looked the same as the 4x5 at 100%. I think I scanned the Mamiya negative at a higher res to. This would suggest to me that the 11x14 print of that shot could easily be doubled in dimension.

All in all I'm pleased. The Sinar is light tight and the lens functions. The negative wasn't great but that was my error. Going to developers some stuff actually shot with proper lighting and develop this week.

All the research in the world is just a fraction of what you learn making that first photograph.

Coupla things to keep in mind:

1. All shutters behave a bit differently, and may be 20% off of their marked speeds one way or the other. This could explain the slight difference in density that you got. As with any systems that puts a separate shutter in each lens, you have to get familiar with them. There are also shutter testers that will help you identify issues with your shutters. This is just as true for the mechanical shutters in Mamiya lenses (at least the Mamiya lenses I'm familiar with, which are all old), but less true for electronically regulated shutters, such as the one in my Pentax 67.


2. The detail in the 4x5 negative should be better than with the Mamiya, all else being equal. But all else is rarely equal. The APO Symmar 210 is a superb lens. But, it needs to be used at its best aperture, which is smaller than the Mamiya lens's best aperture. Schneider rates those lenses at f/16, but in my experience f/22 is the sweet spot on lenses like that. That does, of course, mean a longer shutter speed or more light. But you'll also need to stop down the 4x5 lens more to achieve the same depth of field as with a lens of the same coverage in a smaller format. Large format needs longer lenses, and longer lenses produce higher magnification. Magnification is what dictates depth of field. So, the 120mm lens on your Mamiya that photographs the same scene from the same location as the 210 on your Sinar will need to be stopped down one or two stops to provide the same apparent depth of field.

3. You'll look at 4x5 negatives with greater enlargement, and that is also magnification. Focus has to be more accurate, so use a good loupe on the ground glass. If you do that and the image displays a different focus plane, then something is out of adjustment--that is fixable on a Sinar.

4. You'll have lots of fun managing the image using the Sinar. You can tilt and swing the back to adjust the projection of the image, which affects the way perspective is rendered, and you can tilt and swing the front with respect to the back (or the back with respect to the front) to adjust the tilt of the focus plane. That makes thing possible that are difficult or impossible using a fixed-box camera like your Mamiya. Get used to it with all the controls at zero, but then be prepared to explore other capabilities. If you are photographing smaller things in a studio, those adjustments are more important and powerful.

5. How you scan it makes a difference. To be honest, I get about the same results from my Pentax 67 and I do from my Sinar, because I scan the 6x7 film in a Nikon scanner at 4000 pixels/inch, and the 4x5 film in an Epson flatbed at 2000 pixels per inch. But if I need to make a bigger print than those support (and those scans go easily to 16x20, which is the biggest print I can make anyway), I can have them drum-scanned. If the bug bites you deeply enough, you can go to 8x10 and scan in that Epson and get twice the resolution of either of the above. But what makes the Sinar better for me is the image management capabilities of the camera. What makes it worse is the weight and lack of portability. I end up using both. All life is a compromise of competing objectives. If you scan in an Epson, make sure the scan is well-focused, which may require a bit of experimentation. Mine 750 was perfect out of the box, but some are able to tweak their results a bit with aftermarket adjustable holders.

You have begun what I hope will be a long, interesting, and satisfying journey. Good luck!

Rick "who remembers that first negative, now 40 years ago" Denney