Unidentified/Ernemann Camera: informations.

[NicolaCasini]

Hi guys,
it's my first post here. This morning i found in a flew market this camera:

159797
159798
159799
159800

Looks to be a Ernemann H camera from the 1910-20. Looks in good conditions, and i would love to start to shoot in studio with it, but I have some questions (it's my first experience with a Large Format camera).

First of all, i measured the dimensions of the focusing glass, and it's 10x15cm. For what i know about it, it's a little bit a strange format, and i didn't find any film for it.. Am I right? What should i do, take bigger films and then cut them?

Second thing, i think i need some help to how to use the film holder, but we will speak about it later :D

Thanks.

[NicolaCasini]

159804
159805

[Dustin McAmera]

It's an unusual size now. FotoImpex in Germany list Fomapan 100 and Adox CHS100 II (though it's presently shown as sold out) in that size. These are both ISO 100 black-and-white. The Fomapan is listed at 41.41 Euro, inc. taxes but plus shipping, for 50 sheets.

The other thing is that the camera was probably built for glass plates. If what you have is plate holders, you need an insert for each holder (sometimes called a film sheath), which converts it to accept cut film. These are quite hard to find even in common sizes. I have made a couple for my own use, which look terrible but work ok; and I'm not a gifted craftsman at all.

The width of 4x5 inch film is 10.2 cm. I wonder if a 4x5-inch film sheath would fit in a 10x15 cm plate holder? I'd be surprised; but if it will, you have a large choice of film. Obviously, you'll have an empty space at one or both ends of the frame.

[NicolaCasini]

It's an unusual size now. FotoImpex in Germany list Fomapan 100 and Adox CHS100 II (though it's presently shown as sold out) in that size. These are both ISO 100 black-and-white. The Fomapan is listed at 41.41 Euro, inc. taxes but plus shipping, for 50 sheets.

The other thing is that the camera was probably built for glass plates. If what you have is plate holders, you need an insert for each holder (sometimes called a film sheath), which converts it to accept cut film. These are quite hard to find even in common sizes. I have made a couple for my own use, which look terrible but work ok; and I'm not a gifted craftsman at all.

The width of 4x5 inch film is 10.2 cm. I wonder if a 4x5-inch film sheath would fit in a 10x15 cm plate holder? I'd be surprised; but if it will, you have a large choice of film. Obviously, you'll have an empty space at one or both ends of the frame.

Hi Dustin,
thanks for your reply.
Yes, i have plate holders. What's the difference? And how can i convert them?
Meanwhile, I'll look for some films. And what about cutting down 5x7" film sheets? Do you think is possible?

Nicola.

[Steven Tribe]

These lightweight german folders were made in 9x12, 10x15 and 13x18cm sizes. 10x15 size was a less popular size!
You can see it is an Ernemann because of the + hole in the rear shade! Ernemann (And its big competitor ICA) produced a huge range of almost similar folders. I have catalogues for both 1910 and 1917 and can't find your model, although some details are present on other cameras. I recall there is a website on Ernemann folders.

These were sold with leather pouches containing 3 plate holders. Sometimes, these contain adaptors for cut film if they were used post WW1. The use of roll films tended to make these obselete post WW 1, however. 10x15cm is a very useful size and cheaper to buy (from Berlin) than than 5x7. Cutting film to size is not easy. If you need cut film sheaths, post a "wanted" in the right thread.

[NicolaCasini]

These lightweight german folders were made in 9x12, 10x15 and 13x15cm sizes. 10x15 size was a less popular size!
You can see it is an Ernemann because of the + hole in the rear shade! Ernemann (And its big competitor ICA) produced a huge range of almost similar folders. I have catalogues for both 1910 and 1917 and can't find your model, although some details are present on other cameras. I recall there is a website on Ernemann folders.

These were sold with leather pouches containing 3 plate holders. Sometimes, these contain adaptors for cut film if they were used post WW1. The use of roll films tended to make these obselete post WW 1, however. 10x15cm is a very useful size and cheaper to buy (from Berlin) than than 5x7. Cutting film to size is not easy. If you need cut film sheaths, post a "wanted" in the right thread.

Hi Steven,
and thanks for your help!
The camera came with 3 of this holders (i think are plateholders):

159851159852159853

[NicolaCasini]

And with this one, that i don't know what it is:
159854159855159856159857

As you can see in the picture from the top, there's a gap close to the locking system and the volet, so i think I miss something to put in it. The other strange thing is that there's no way to put it fully in the camera instead of the focusing glass, a portion of the "holder" is not getting inside the camera! What is that?

Thanks for your help guys, I really appreciate.

Nicola.

[IanG]

Adding to Steven's comments these were made in smaller sizes as well down to 6.5x9cm, This looks to be quite an early model. it has a pneumatic shutter but it's not like Ernemann's usual Chronos shutter and the aperture opens in the opposite direction. It's an odd shutter with a cocking ad a release arm like a Compur, but it's not a n Ibso (pneumatic variant of the Ibsor) which has a combined cocking/release arm. I'll look in one or two BJP Almanacs later today see what Ernemann have listed, this series is the Ernemann Heag though, there were 5 versions before they merged into Zeiss Ikon.

With no rise and fall it's a lower end model coupled with the fact it doesn't use a Tessar lens.

When you've been a member here a month you can post in the Buy/Sell/Wanted section, The best place to look for film adapters is Ebay.de login is identical for all Ebay portals but searches don't port across to all, watched items and all your history etc do. Someone can give you an idea what terms to search for.

Ian

[NicolaCasini]

P.s.: it looks identical to this one: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Ernemann-Heag-II-Series-II-Folding-Bed-Plate-Camera-9-5-X-15-cm-/371829798704?hash=item5692c87730:g:kHwAAOSwZQRYarjw
The only difference is that my shutter have the scale in reverse, but also the shutter settings (until 1/300") are the same.

[Steven Tribe]

And with this one, that i don't know what it is:
159854159855159856159857

As you can see in the picture from the top, there's a gap close to the locking system and the volet, so i think I miss something to put in it. The other strange thing is that there's no way to put it fully in the camera instead of the focusing glass, a portion of the "holder" is not getting inside the camera! What is that?

Thanks for your help guys, I really appreciate.

Nicola.

The "thick" plateholder is a film pack holder.
The back fitting was slightly different for certain makes, so the user back in the early 1900's may have bought the wrong type! Needless to say, these film packs have been unavailable for some time, but were available for standard 4x5 types until very recently.

Your shutter type is shown on the catalogues I have.
The lens is probably a detektiv aplanat F.6.8. The bellows extension is designed so that you can get longer focal lengths using the real lens cell alone.
Not all series offered all 3 sizes.

[Dustin McAmera]

Yes, i have plate holders. What's the difference? And how can i convert them?
Meanwhile, I'll look for some films. And what about cutting down 5x7" film sheets? Do you think is possible?


Here's a 'glossary' page I wrote for Camera-wiki on film sheaths; it has a picture. The sheath is just a folded metal holder, that gives your sheet of film the rigidity and thickness to sit in the plate-holder like a glass plate.
http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Film_sheath

You should look at what is available in the Ilford 'ULF' programme. Once a year they accept orders for a range of sizes they don't usually make. I think it's order about April, deliver in September. It's not cheap.
I have thought about cutting film with a guillotine, when contemplating the years to come when they will inevitably stop making quarter-plate film (about as easy to get as 10x15 cm)! I think it could be done. Easiest if you settle for ortho film and cut it under safelight. Clearly there would be nobody you could sue for injuries you suffered while using a guillotine in complete darkness! For a handful of sheets I expect any guillotine would work well enough. You can get guillotines to cut (say) a whole ream of paper, and that would easily manage a whole box of film.

[IanG]

My mistake your camera does appear have rise and fall with a fairly unique locking system which is missing on the link you give. It would be useful to know the maximum lens aperture and any lens markings.

Ian

[NicolaCasini]

Ok, trying to understand everything, but please have patience with me, I'm a newbye in Large Format cameras. So, in order:



The "thick" plateholder is a film pack holder.
The back fitting was slightly different for certain makes, so the user back in the early 1900's may have bought the wrong type! Needless to say, these film packs have been unavailable for some time, but were available for standard 4x5 types until very recently.

Your shutter type is shown on the catalogues I have.
The lens is probably a detektiv aplanat F.6.8. The bellows extension is designed so that you can get longer focal lengths using the real lens cell alone.
Not all series offered all 3 sizes.

Ok, so the film pack holder is not usable, because no film packs are still produced, right?



Here's a 'glossary' page I wrote for Camera-wiki on film sheaths; it has a picture. The sheath is just a folded metal holder, that gives your sheet of film the rigidity and thickness to sit in the plate-holder like a glass plate.
http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Film_sheath


Ok, got it. I think is quite impossible to get some of them in 10x15, but they looks quite simple to make by myself; i'm an engineer and i have good skills in "DIY" stuff. Just some questions: if I understood in the right way from the wiki you linked me, the problem are dimensions, because the little framing part that keeps the sheet on the metal plate virtually put the film out of the focusing "plan". Am I right?
And, second question, what about the possibility to do some framings to reduce the dimension of the sheets, to put normal 5x4" sheets in it?



You should look at what is available in the Ilford 'ULF' programme. Once a year they accept orders for a range of sizes they don't usually make. I think it's order about April, deliver in September. It's not cheap.
I have thought about cutting film with a guillotine, when contemplating the years to come when they will inevitably stop making quarter-plate film (about as easy to get as 10x15 cm)! I think it could be done. Easiest if you settle for ortho film and cut it under safelight. Clearly there would be nobody you could sue for injuries you suffered while using a guillotine in complete darkness! For a handful of sheets I expect any guillotine would work well enough. You can get guillotines to cut (say) a whole ream of paper, and that would easily manage a whole box of film.

Ok, I will think about it, but i checked and from FotoImpex I still can have Foma 10x15 film sheets, so maybe i will start with them!


My mistake your camera does appear have rise and fall with a fairly unique locking system which is missing on the link you give. It would be useful to know the maximum lens aperture and any lens markings.

Ian

Hi Ian, the maximum aperture is f/6.8, in the down part there's written Ernemann Dresden and around the lens "Ernemann Detectiv Aplanat 1-6.8 N°205794" (I didn't noticed before), it's written very tiny and in black.


So, at the end, the only way to use it nowadays is to get some 10x15 film sheets from FOMA and do by myself or find somewhere some film sheaths for that format?
No way to convert it to some other more common format?

[IanG]

Ok, so the film pack holder is not usable, because no film packs are still produced, right?

I think Steven was saying it was the wrong edge fit as well as film packs being long discontinued


Ok, got it. I think is quite impossible to get some of them in 10x15, but they looks quite simple to make by myself; i'm an engineer and i have good skills in "DIY" stuff. Just some questions: if I understood in the right way from the wiki you linked me, the problem are dimensions, because the little framing part that keeps the sheet on the metal plate virtually put the film out of the focusing "plan". Am I right?
And, second question, what about the possibility to do some framings to reduce the dimension of the sheets, to put normal 5x4" sheets in it?

You could make a reducing frame to use 5x4 sheet film. They were quite common with glass plate holders to use smaller plate sizes, it wouldn't be difficult to figure something out.

An alternative is make a new back and focus screen to use modern 5x4 DDS (double dark slides - film holders). This used to be done with German 9x12 cameras and just slides in normally where the focus back of plate holders fit.

The thickness of the film sheath adapters is barely enough to affect focusing, in theory it will but unless you're working wide open fairly close up it;s not significant. The focus screens on these pre-WWII cameras were quite coarse and dim so very hard to focus that accurately, I've changed the screens in all my German 9x12 cameras and focusing is now very significantly easier and more accurate due to a significant increase in brightness.

Ian

[NicolaCasini]

You could make a reducing frame to use 5x4 sheet film. They were quite common with glass plate holders to use smaller plate sizes, it wouldn't be difficult to figure something out.

An alternative is make a new back and focus screen to use modern 5x4 DDS (double dark slides - film holders). This used to be done with German 9x12 cameras and just slides in normally where the focus back of plate holders fit.

The thickness of the film sheath adapters is barely enough to affect focusing, in theory it will but unless you're working wide open fairly close up it;s not significant. The focus screens on these pre-WWII cameras were quite coarse and dim so very hard to focus that accurately, I've changed the screens in all my German 9x12 cameras and focusing is now very significantly easier and more accurate due to a significant increase in brightness.

Ian

And what if I will put something to move also back the focusing screen for the same thickness of the sheaths frame? The focusing should be good, right? Because I'm a fashion photographer, and basically i would use the camera for portraits, so closeup focusing and subject quite close.

[IanG]

And what if I will put something to move also back the focusing screen for the same thickness of the sheaths frame? The focusing should be good, right? Because I'm a fashion photographer, and basically i would use the camera for portraits, so closeup focusing and subject quite close.

If you could shim the screen with the same material it would be very easy, and accurate, however there may not be enough space in the focus screen holder to shim it so you'd need to look carefully.

Ian

[NicolaCasini]

If you could shim the screen with the same material it would be very easy, and accurate, however there may not be enough space in the focus screen holder to shim it so you'd need to look carefully.

Ian

Perfect, i will try. I think I'll use a 0.3mm aluminium plate, so the shift should be maximum 0.7mm.

[Steven Tribe]

It is the original lens/shutter which is mounted on the camera, which means the original distance scale on the rails should be useable for focussing as a help to ground glass focussing. I'll post a photo of what sheath holders look like if you reduce size. Note that 4" is quite a lot larger than 10cm.

[Tin Can]

Steven has posted ID already,

I have something similar. ICA Trona 212 with case and 3 SDD (single dark slide) film holder like yours, but I have 1/4 plate sheaths and film.

You have inspired me to finally shoot it today. Kinda slow here.

Pics at 10. Film is warming up.

http://www.historiccamera.com/cgi-bin/librarium/pm.cgi?action=display&login=trona

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/602/32351107865_e3a3016e4a_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/RhKTgP)2 (https://flic.kr/p/RhKTgP) by moe.randy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/548/32312098326_028cba5cc1_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ReiX6y)4 (https://flic.kr/p/ReiX6y) by moe.randy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/426/31508976614_91289a1a74_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Q1kJZu)3 (https://flic.kr/p/Q1kJZu) by moe.randy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/665/32201106912_4c43c904f9_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/R4v6du)1 (https://flic.kr/p/R4v6du) by moe.randy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

[Ron (Netherlands)]

So, at the end, the only way to use it nowadays is to get some 10x15 film sheets from FOMA and do by myself or find somewhere some film sheaths for that format?
No way to convert it to some other more common format?[/B]

If it is only for a first tryout, I wouldn't put much effort in trying to find 10 x 15 film sheaths. Instead you can put some card board in place and put film on it with double sided tape or just some tape at the edges.
If you're in Europe I guess it would be easier to find some old German 10 x 15 film (sometimes found on Ebay). If you are nearby i.e. The Netherlands, I could send you some Foma film, it is very nice film when given the right treatment :-)
You might get some inspiration from our Foma thread: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?121712-Fomapan-100-200-and-400

[NicolaCasini]

If it is only for a first tryout, I wouldn't put much effort in trying to find 10 x 15 film sheaths. Instead you can put some card board in place and put film on it with double sided tape or just some tape at the edges.
If you're in Europe I guess it would be easier to find some old German 10 x 15 film (sometimes found on Ebay). If you are nearby i.e. The Netherlands, I could send you some Foma film, it is very nice film when given the right treatment :-)
You might get some inspiration from our Foma thread: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?121712-Fomapan-100-200-and-400

Hi Ron,
thanks for your reply! So should i keep the glasses in the plate holder and just do a "sandwitch" with the holder and the plate? I'm from Italy, but if you could send me some to try it would be amazing! Because the minimum order on fotoimpex is 50sheets!

Nicola.

[Steven Tribe]

This a conversion film sheath which allows 10x15cm film use in a 13x18cm (Or perhaps 5x7"?) glass plate holder. I am sure this system are available for going down in size on your camera to 1/4 plate or 9x12cm.

The insert sheath holder is removable. As this is a format I won't be using ever, this insert holder for 10x15 sheet (just one I am afraid - the other was sent to someone else here!) is available if you want it. I don't have any new or aged 10x15cm film.

Don't worry about film being in the right registration position. The people who made these sheaths were not complete idiots!

[pjd]

I've got a 10x15 ICA camera, I used to cut down 5x7 film but it felt too wasteful. The idea about using the glass plate to hold the film in place is a good one, I did that for a while until I got hold of some film sheaths (also known as septums sometimes).

The film pack might not be entirely useless. I sometimes use plate cameras as enlargers, in which case a partly dismantled film pack holder can be used as a negative holder with a bit of glass or scotch tape. It could also be used as the basis for some sort of adapter - for example, if you could fit a roll back in it somehow. Have fun with it, it's a great looking camera! And very compact for such a good size negative.

[NicolaCasini]

This a conversion film sheath which allows 10x15cm film use in a 13x18cm (Or perhaps 5x7"?) glass plate holder. I am sure this system are available for going down in size on your camera to 1/4 plate or 9x12cm.

The insert sheath holder is removable. As this is a format I won't be using ever, this insert holder for 10x15 sheet (just one I am afraid - the other was sent to someone else here!) is available if you want it. I don't have any new or aged 10x15cm film.

Don't worry about film being in the right registration position. The people who made these sheaths were not complete idiots!

Hi Steven,
it would be amazing! I have some connections with a metal workshop around here in Milan, if I could have one sheath i could ask to them to do some copies (even more if someone here is interested in them!)

Nicola.

[NicolaCasini]

I've got a 10x15 ICA camera, I used to cut down 5x7 film but it felt too wasteful. The idea about using the glass plate to hold the film in place is a good one, I did that for a while until I got hold of some film sheaths (also known as septums sometimes).

The film pack might not be entirely useless. I sometimes use plate cameras as enlargers, in which case a partly dismantled film pack holder can be used as a negative holder with a bit of glass or scotch tape. It could also be used as the basis for some sort of adapter - for example, if you could fit a roll back in it somehow. Have fun with it, it's a great looking camera! And very compact for such a good size negative.

I think I have somewhere some film back from Hasselblad or Zenza, actually i could try to adapt one of them to the film pack. Good idea! Or maybe make a polaroid film back!

Nicola.

[Steven Tribe]

I'll send you the sheath for 10x15 this week before I disappear off to Spain for a few weeks, Send me a PM with your address.

This one is a bit finer than the usual design, with fancy edges and pattern pressed back. The usual ones are plain steel (black mat), the semi-circle cut-out is important of easy removal of the film in the dark room!

Your idea about a batch production is good. There is also a demand for some other sizes - especialy full plate sheaths.

Check the donated sheath fits in your plate holders before you order them!!

There are vintage roll film (120) adaptor back for these cameras around.

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Hi Ron,
thanks for your reply! So should i keep the glasses in the plate holder and just do a "sandwitch" with the holder and the plate? I'm from Italy, but if you could send me some to try it would be amazing! Because the minimum order on fotoimpex is 50sheets!

Nicola. yep, if I get your address through pm I'll send some film. Don't know what you mean here with sandwich...I wouldn't work with the original glasses since they might fit too tight together with the film.

Any experience yet with loading film in a dark room or changing bag? And any idea yet on how to develop this flat film?

[NicolaCasini]

yep, if I get your address through pm I'll send some film. Don't know what you mean here with sandwich...I wouldn't work with the original glasses since they might fit too tight together with the film.

Any experience yet with loading film in a dark room or changing bag? And any idea yet on how to develop this flat film?

I will send the address now!
So should I use something more "thin" to hold the sheet in place?

Sure, I'm developing 20-30 135 rolls of films, and 10-15 6x6 medium format ones, every month since years! So i shouldn't have problems.. I was thinking to use the "taco" method to develop the sheets, because i don't have a large format tank.

[Ron (Netherlands)]

I will send the address now!
. I was thinking to use the "taco" method to develop the sheets, because i don't have a large format tank.

Yep, taco method should work very well with this format; you can put 3 flatfilms in a 'double' 120film tank. But as for a start I would take only 1 or 2.
Btw the film should have reached you by now...Italy isn't that far away from us :-)