Lens and shutter compatability

[tonyowen]

A very vague and general question.
Assumptions – [1] lens 'normally' separates into two parts (cells ???), [2] shutter fits ‘between’ the two lens sections.

I see many offers on eBay for “old” shutters eg Ibsor, Ibex, Betax etc, but am not certain as to their potential usage.

Assuming the male thread of a lens matches the female mating thread in the shutter can ‘any’ lens be fitted into ‘any’ shutter?????

If not, why not?
If yes, what qualifiers??

Regards

Tony

[IanG]

Rimset Copmpurs set the modern standard after 1930, Copal/Seiko, Prontor/Vario, Epsilon, AGI shiutters all use the same thread sizes, sizes range from #00. #0, #1 #2 very rare to #3. Newer Ibso and Ibsor shutter were compatible, older were the Dail set threads.

Prior to that the Dial set Compurs were a different thread not compatible, some olderProntors and Varios used the same threads.

US made shutters are not compatible with European, and Illex and Wollensak (Betax, Alphax, Rapax/Graphex etc) shutters are not interchaneable either.

So matching cells to shutters is easier with UK/European lenses & shutters. I picked up a new (unused - the scale's not been engraved) Ibsor very cheaply a few months ago and was very surprised to find it was #1 compatible.

Ian

[B.S.Kumar]

To add to what Ian said, if the threads match, all you'd need to do is:

a. If the lens came with shims originally, use the same shims with the new shutter and test.
b. If the aperture scale on the new shutter isn't for the same focal length/maximum aperture, you'll need to make your own, or get it made.

Kumar

[tonyowen]

use the same shims with the new shutter and test.

Dear Ian and Kumar
Thank you both for your responses. Reading between the lines is seems to be " a maybe, a possibility but never a certainty".

regards

Tony

[IanG]

If you do your homework then certainty is more likely, it's experience but also taking chances. I've bought quite a few shutters and have quite a number of new unused ones, Compur, Ibsor, Prontor, Alphax etc.

Ian

[Kevin Crisp]

If the shutter you are moving the cells into has larger holes than what you took them out of, then you can probably have adapters made that will properly space the cells in the new shutter. This is precision machine work and will cost you more than $100 if you can't do it yourself. The large holes are why Ilex/Acme shutters in their no. 3 and 4 sizes are popular for this. You want the overall length of the cells when mounted front and back to match the original mounting. You also want the diaphragm/aperture to be in a position as close as you can get it to the original. Longer lenses are much more forgiving than shorter lenses. And stopping down cures many issues. But better to not make mistakes in the first place.

If you think there is something wrong with older shutter necessarily, then I'd seriously question that. I love Betax shutters. They are simple and they always work for me. I had to have one CLA'd just once. Ilex Acmes I use need an occasional CLA, but not more than a Copal shutter. Alphax shutters have been very reliable for me. I don't view a working older shutter as a negative on a lens purchase, and would never move a lens from an older shutter just to have a newer one.

[Bob Salomon]

If the shutter you are moving the cells into has larger holes than what you took them out of, then you can probably have adapters made that will properly space the cells in the new shutter. This is precision machine work and will cost you more than $100 if you can't do it yourself. The large holes are why Ilex/Acme shutters in their no. 3 and 4 sizes are popular for this. You want the overall length of the cells when mounted front and back to match the original mounting. You also want the diaphragm/aperture to be in a position as close as you can get it to the original. Longer lenses are much more forgiving than shorter lenses. And stopping down cures many issues. But better to not make mistakes in the first place.

If you think there is something wrong with older shutter necessarily, then I'd seriously question that. I love Betax shutters. They are simple and they always work for me. I had to have one CLA'd just once. Ilex Acmes I use need an occasional CLA, but not more than a Copal shutter. Alphax shutters have been very reliable for me. I don't view a working older shutter as a negative on a lens purchase, and would never move a lens from an older shutter just to have a newer one.

Unless, maybe, you need M or X flash synch. Depending on how old that old shutter is.

[tonyowen]

If you think there is something wrong with older shutter necessarily, then I'd seriously question that.

No I was not suggesting and hopefully not inferring that. My query was just the simple one that was posed.

I agree with your comments that any modifications will be expensive and probably much more than the US$100 stated. But I had, and have, no intention of considering that option.
regards
Tony

[Leigh]

If the lens came with shims originally, use the same shims with the new shutter and test.
Not quite that simple.
Shims are used to correct variations in the thickness of individual shutters from the desired value. The thickness varies with the shutter.

The cells need to be the same distance apart as they were in the original shutter.

So you have to measure the distance between the old shutter's two mating surfaces, INCLUDING the thickness of the shim. (= To)

Then measure that distance on the new shutter with no shims. (=Tn)

Subtract this value from the value of the original shutter. (Ts = To - Tn)

If Ts is positive, it's the thickness of the shim required with the new shutter.
If Ts is zero, no shim is required with the new shutter.

If Ts is negative, the thickness of the new shutter must be reduced by that value for the lens to work properly.
This is normally done by machining the shutter on a vertical mill or on a lathe.
This is a very critical operation, with great care required to keep metal slivers out of the mechanism.
It may require taking different amounts from each side, to keep the diaphragm where it belongs in the optical path.

- Leigh

[Kevin Crisp]

Bob is correct, if you are using strobes or flashbulbs that can be a shortcoming of some older shutters.

[B.S.Kumar]

Thanks, Leigh. You explained very clearly what I simply stated as "test".

Kumar

[Jac@stafford.net]

Bob is correct, if you are using strobes or flashbulbs that can be a shortcoming of some older shutters. A leaf shutter that has the typical cable release can use an adapter that adds a flash (PC) socket. I have a couple.

I will look for a picture.

[Bob Salomon]

A leaf shutter that has the typical cable release can use an adapter that adds a flash (PC) socket. I have a couple.

I will look for a picture.
If you can find one and that one has the correct synch timing. You are talking about an accessory that hasn't been made since the 60s!

[Dan Fromm]

Hmm. OP, so you'll know, the standard tube lengths are: #00, 16 mm; #0, 20 mm; #1, 20 mm. The standard diameters and threading are: #00, M22.5x0.5 front and rear; #0, M29.5x0.5 front and rear; #1, M40x0.75 front, M36x0.75 rear.

[Leigh]

Hmm. OP, so you'll know, the standard tube lengths are: #00, 16 mm; #0, 20 mm; #1, 20 mm.
The standard diameters and threading are: #00, M22.5x0.5 front and rear; #0, M29.5x0.5 front and rear; #1, M40x0.75 front, M36x0.75 rear.Hi Dan,

What about the #2 shutter?

Do you know the nominal tolerance on the lengths?

Thanks.

- Leigh

[IanG]

Here's some info I posted o APUG a few months ago. as DAn Fromm observed they don't give all the dimensions but it's a start :D

Rim-set Compurs and Gauthier shutter. (http://www.apug.org/forum/index.php?threads/rim-set-compurs-and-gauthier-shutter.138945/#post-1814648)

Dial set Compurs. (http://www.apug.org/forum/index.php?threads/rim-set-compurs-and-gauthier-shutter.138945/#post-1814648)

SK Grimes has info on US shutters on their website. One nice thing is US Eastman Kodak lenses and shutters remained standard for decades, so my early Kodak 170mm f7.7 Anastigmat (dialyte) in an early Wollensak Velosto shutter (the UK name for the Optimo - the Trade name was already in use here), will fit the last Alphax and Rapax made.

Here UK/Europe we really are lucky in the shutter standardisation that took place in the 1930's, eventually Eastman Kodak were the first US company to switch but strangely. All UK made 203mm f7.7 Ektars were in modern #0 sized shutters initially Epsilon - a Ross shutter, (the older uncoated Anastigmat version was in a Compur until WWII), but later when German shutters became available again Prontors and finally Compur #0s again. The Eastman Kodak version was in a Supermatic but very late lenses were in the TM Graphex Compur shutter which is a modified #1 Compur with the B pole flash sync. This is actually a case BS Kumar describes where the US cells are mounted in adaptors to fit a larger shutter probably using up cells made for the obsolete US shutter. Either war 203mm f7.7 Ekatars in #0 (UK) or #1 (US) shutters are quite rare but they are the best :D

Ian

[Dan Fromm]

Leigh, there are several slightly different #2s.

http://www.suaudeau.eu/memo/pratique/Les_obturateurs_centraux.html doesn't have tube length data for them and I'm not convinced its data on diameters and threading is correct. It says that Compur II tubes 5/I and 5/II are threaded M45.8x40 tpi front and rear, tube VI/2 is threaded 49.65x 40 tpi front and rear, and #2 dial set is threaded M45.66x0.75, as 25.05 mm tube length. Use with care.

I believe that the Compur/Copal standard tube lengths are +/- 0.05 mm, could be mistaken.


Sorry,

[Jac@stafford.net]

If you can find one and that one has the correct synch timing. You are talking about an accessory that hasn't been made since the 60s!

The Sixties is right, Bob. That's what we get for living as long as we have. I would have to dig through my storage bin to find them. Should I? I also have much earlier bulb synchronizers for early Leica and Canon cameras that had no flash ports. Oi! So much to divest!
.

[Leigh]

Leigh, there are several slightly different #2s.
Hi Dan,

I was afraid that might be the case.
I'm really surprised that there's as much standardization as there is. :(


I believe that the Compur/Copal standard tube lengths are +/- 0.05 mm, could be mistaken.
OK. 0.05mm = 0.002", which is quite tight.

Thanks very much.

- Leigh

[tonyowen]

159394
I've attached an image of the adaptor referred to in post #12, which I purchased around 25 years ago.
Reflecting on all of the contributions to my original query I'm not certain if I've opened Pandora's Box or a can of worms!!!!!!
Seriously though, the contributions give a lot of relevant and important information that could/should be archived somewhere so that it does not get lost or forgotten - Moderators input???.
regards
Tony

[Dan Fromm]

Tony, you showed us a PC terminal to hot shoe adapter. JAC had in mind a timing device that was fired by the cable release.

Re archiving, it is archived. The page that the link I gave Leigh goes to is in archive.org

[tonyowen]

apologies and thanks
Tony