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Two23
25-Dec-2016, 12:39
Pawing through my camera gear closet I came across what seems to be a lens that seems to span two eras. It's in Compound (serial 259xxx), top speed 1/150s, and lens is marked "Carl Zeiss Jena Nr. 273046", "Tesssar 1:4,5 F=16.5cm DRP." Lens is uncoated. From what I know, this should be a post war Tessar from East Germany. However, it is labeled "Tessar," and it is uncoated. Maybe it was a very early batch? And what about the shutter? Is there a listing for Compound serials? Shutter appears to be older than the lens. Maybe when they were starting back up post war they grabbed whatever shutters they could find?


Kent in SD

IanG
25-Dec-2016, 13:32
It's an early Tessar if that's the serial number. then it's 1914-15, I have a few around that age. I don't know why you think post WWII my East German post WWII 150mm Tessar is T coated and the pre war DRP patent number is not used. I don't think they had access to Compound shutters and it was some time after WWII before Deckel were able to really get back into mass production of shutters, unlike Gauthier and theProntor shutters. I think the Deckel factory had been badly damaged in bombing raids.

If the Compound serial numbers are running concurrent with the Compurs, after all they were both made by Deckel, that would again indicate 1914/15

Ian

Two23
25-Dec-2016, 15:52
It's an early Tessar if that's the serial number. then it's 1914-15, I have a few around that age. I don't know why you think post WWII my East German post WWII


I did some more reading and see I was confused. It was the Oberkochen (West) factory that wasn't allowed to mark the lenses "Jena." I had it backwards. What I have is a great copy of a 1914 Tessar in a good working Compound! Is there a serial number list anywhere for Compound shutters to date them? I haven't found one yet. Some of my lenses are difficult to date using the lens' serial, so I then resort to dating the shutter. I'm thinking of a couple of Dagor/Berlins that I have.


Kent in SD

Ron (Netherlands)
25-Dec-2016, 16:16
No Compound serial lists are known...you can compare the type of compound with the ones shown in the different catalogues. A Compound from 1903 is quite different from the one of 1908 or the later 1912 type.

Dan Fromm
25-Dec-2016, 16:28
No Compound serial lists are known...you can compare the type of compound with the ones shown in the different catalogues. A Compound from 1903 is quite different from the one of 1908 or the later 1912 type.

P-H Pont's Les Chiffres Cles has a chronology for dial-set Deckel shutters from 1905 - 1964. This includes Compounds and dial-set Compurs. He says to use it carefully as there are anomalies.

Kent, 259xxx means between 1914 and 1920, closer to, perhaps even, 1914. Goes well with the lens.

Two23
25-Dec-2016, 18:06
Thanks Dan. I've been looking for that Pont book without success. I had Flutot do a CLA on that shutter a few years ago. The lens/shutter run perfectly and it's one of my favorites.


Kent in SD

Neal Chaves
25-Dec-2016, 18:16
Any item marked DRP is from the Third Reich Era, 1933 to 1945.

Dan Fromm
25-Dec-2016, 18:20
I just looked, the book seems to be out of print.

cowanw
25-Dec-2016, 19:15
Any item marked DRP is from the Third Reich Era, 1933 to 1945.

To be more precise, after 1877 and before 1946 (or 1950 in practice). The Deutsches Bundespatent (DBP) started in the West in 1949; the GDR used "DDR Patent" or "WP" but pre 1946 components may be found.

Randy
25-Dec-2016, 19:58
Kent, could you post a nice close-up of the lens in shutter? Just would like to see it. I am not much of a vintage lens aficionado but have two older CZ tessars in shutters - a 120mm and a 150mm, neither of which I know much about...just use them.

Two23
25-Dec-2016, 22:14
Kent, could you post a nice close-up of the lens in shutter? Just would like to see it. I am not much of a vintage lens aficionado but have two older CZ tessars in shutters - a 120mm and a 150mm, neither of which I know much about...just use them.


Sure, attached. Really nice shape for 100 years old!159102


Kent in SD

IanG
26-Dec-2016, 02:52
Any item marked DRP is from the Third Reich Era, 1933 to 1945.

My old 1933 Tesar so made under the Third Reich had no DRP, so how do you explain that Tessars after WWI no longer carry the PRP :D I've just just checked 7 different post WWI Tessars and none have the DRP, this is probably due to war reparations the Patents were no longer valid, Ross continued making Zeiss design lenses during WWI and after but no longer made any mention of Zeiss or the Patent numbers.

So a Tessar made in 1816 has the DRP, but one made in 1919 doesn't.

Ian

IanG
26-Dec-2016, 02:53
I can't find a SN on the tiny 1913 Compoud that my 120mm Dagor is fitted in, but it's one of the last small Compounds produce as smaller sizes were were replaced by Compurs.

Checking my CZJ 21cmm f4.5 Tessar made around 1922.3 it would appear to be a year maybe two older than it's Compound which is quite typical as batches of shutters were often kept in stock. Thanks to Dan Fromm for clarifying that the Compound SN's are in with the Compur that seems to fit with my only Tessar in a Compound and also with Kent's lens.

Ian

Ron (Netherlands)
26-Dec-2016, 08:06
The German Reich (Empire) was established in 1870! Not in 1933 (that was the year the Nazis came into power)

DRP means Deutsches Reich Patent

Ron (Netherlands)
26-Dec-2016, 08:09
Sure, attached. Really nice shape for 100 years old!159102


Kent in SD

These were made as from 1912 according to some catalogues

Dan Fromm
26-Dec-2016, 08:51
These were made as from 1912 according to some catalogues

The VM says that the f/4.5 Ser. Ic Tessar was introduced in 1906.

Neal Chaves
26-Dec-2016, 11:56
The German Reich (Empire) was established in 1870! Not in 1933 (that was the year the Nazis came into power)

DRP means Deutsches Reich Patent

I'm sorry, but it didn't occur to me that prior to 1919, DRP stood for Deutsches Reich Patent (The second Reich). Does the R in DRP between 1919 and 1933 stand for Republik and not Reich as this was the era of the Weimar Republic?

IanG
26-Dec-2016, 12:13
The VM says that the f/4.5 Ser. Ic Tessar was introduced in 1906.

Two factors Dan, when the Series Ic was first introduced - 1906, and the both Ross and B&L also made them . Ross made a Ross-Tessar 1c f4.5 170mm by 1910.

Coming from another angle that I've really not looked at seriously is what format was the 165mm Tessar designed for, I have a 165mm f6.3 and a quite rare 165mm f5.3 usually fitted to a Kodak camera now I need to remember.recheck which. I know when Zeiss made the fast 165mm f2.7 Tessar it was designed for 5x4in. First thoughts are Postcard size, That differs between the US & Germany, I've just made a GG screen for someone in Germany so I should check it against the screen on my postcard size Compact Graphic.

Changing the subject slightly I'd like to add f2.7, f3.5 and f4.5 165mm Tessars to my other two and just out of curiosity test them.

Ian

cowanw
26-Dec-2016, 12:20
The Weimar Republic was so named first by Hitler as a derogatory term. The official name of the government between WW I and 1933 was still Deutsches Reich, the German Reich, not as in Empire with a Royal Head of State but in the sense of nation or realm. While Deutsches was translated to "German" Reich was left untranslated in English diplomatic language.

Ron (Netherlands)
26-Dec-2016, 16:35
The VM says that the f/4.5 Ser. Ic Tessar was introduced in 1906.

Sorry....i meant the shutter

Ron (Netherlands)
26-Dec-2016, 16:37
The Weimar Republic was so named first by Hitler as a derogatory term. The official name of the government between WW I and 1933 was still Deutsches Reich, the German Reich, not as in Empire with a Royal Head of State but in the sense of nation or realm. While Deutsches was translated to "German" Reich was left untranslated in English diplomatic language.

Agree

Dan Fromm
26-Dec-2016, 16:45
Sorry....i meant the shutter

Pont dates the earliest Compound to 1905, the earliest Compur to 1910.

Ron (Netherlands)
27-Dec-2016, 15:00
Pont dates the earliest Compound to 1905, the earliest Compur to 1910.

Sure, but the one in the picture isn't an early type........ I'm not sure what you're trying to point out

Dan Fromm
27-Dec-2016, 15:51
Ron in post #4


No Compound serial lists are known...you can compare the type of compound with the ones shown in the different catalogues. A Compound from 1903 is quite different from the one of 1908 or the later 1912 type.

My post #5, disagreeing with Ron


P-H Pont's Les Chiffres Cles has a chronology for dial-set Deckel shutters from 1905 - 1964. This includes Compounds and dial-set Compurs. He says to use it carefully as there are anomalies.

Kent, 259xxx means between 1914 and 1920, closer to, perhaps even, 1914. Goes well with the lens.

Side comment, most of us believe the Compound shutter came to market in 1905. Evidence that it was offered earlier would be welcome. So would solid evidence for design changes with the dates they were made. Has Thiele done this?

Ron in post #15, referring to the lens in shutter image that Kent posted:


These were made as from 1912 according to some catalogues

Side comment, the lens’ s/n dates from 1914 .

Me in post #16, in response to Ron’s post #15


The VM says that the f/4.5 Ser. Ic Tessar was introduced in 1906.

Ron in post #20, replying to post #16


Sorry....i meant the shutter

Me in post #22, replying to Ron’s post #16


Pont dates the earliest Compound to 1905, the earliest Compur to 1910.

Finally, until he comes back, Ron in post #23


Sure, but the one in the picture isn't an early type........ I'm not sure what you're trying to point out

Well, the lens type dates from 1906. The shutter was made as early as 1905. Everything you’ve said in this discussion has been mistaken. That’s all.

Michael E
27-Dec-2016, 17:32
Germany was a conglomarate of many independant states before the "Deutsches Reich" was founded in 1871. DRP or "Deutsches Reichspatent" was used from 1877 on many products, until the end of WWII.

The Tessar was patented in 1902. The patent expired in 1922.

Zeiss was located in Jena. After WWII, Germany was devided and part of the Zeiss staff founded a new Zeiss company in Oberkochen, West Germany. Of course, they did not use Jena in their name or on their products. The Hasselblad lenses (among many other products) were made by Zeiss Oberkochen.

The old Zeiss company in Jena continued to make lenses. After a long legal battle concerning the rights to the brand names, Zeiss Jena offered their products in many countries under the label "aus Jena" (from Jena) and marked Tessar lenses with a simple "T".

Your Tessar is not odd. Enjoy it!

Ron (Netherlands)
28-Dec-2016, 03:30
Thanks Dan, ...I see now that my answers were quite short...and ready for misunderstanding.
For the ones who would like to be informed about the different types of compounds, here is a very informative site with the different types shown:
http://www.earlyphotography.co.uk/site/entry_S47.html

Dan Fromm
28-Dec-2016, 07:01
Ron, thanks for the link.