E-6 volume dilemma

[Patrick Gauthier]

I dev. 4x5 taco in a Patterson 2-reel tank and typically use around 700 - 750 mL of solution to make sure film is always submerged.

I have a lead on acquiring a 1 L and 500 mL kit of E-6 for a great price (super hard to find in Canada) and am wondering how to make this work. The 1 L is obviously no problem, but the 500 mL kit will not give enough solution to have the film submerged at all times.

If you haven't dev'd taco and are thinking I'm crazy for saying that a 2-reel Patterson tank needs ~ 700 mL for 4x5, the light-lock/funnel at the top wedges the tacos sideways and they are actually above the standard 500 mL mark when in place.

I see a few options, and was hoping others may have experience to comment on the potential success/failure of these options.

1) I have had success in the past developing B&W 4x5 taco in the patterson 2-reel tank with only 500 mL (a few more inversions than typical). I suspect the solutions adhere to the film between inversions and this is why the developing is even. I don't do it anymore because why risk it.

2) Dilute 500 mL of E-6 solutions to 700 mL. Haven't found any documentation on this and how to adjust times.

3) Skim off 1/4 of the 1L kit to add to the 500 mL kit, making 2 x 750 mL kits. But I would be opening both and likely only using one at a time, where the other would have to be stored, possibly for several months, having been opened (but not as working solution).

4) buy a smaller dev. tank that accommodates 500 mL volumes for 4x5. I would like to avoid this as it would cost more than the 500 mL e-6 kit and would not get much use.

[adelorenzo]

What about something like the SP-445 tank? 4 sheets of 4x5 with 475 ml of solution.

Also you can get Tetenal E-6 kits from Beau Photo in Vancouver they will ship. The 1 L kits are kind of pricey but the 5 L kits cost only about 50% more.

[Corran]

A long, long time ago I used to dilute C-41 chemicals 1:1 and developed longer than normal. I can't remember how much longer. It actually worked fine, and the only reason I did it was because I misunderstood some things about development (this was back when I first started my own developing). I was using rotary processing in BTZS tubes. So while not entirely comparable, I would bet that diluting it would work okay. In fact I may be revisiting that technique soon due to some constraints on availability of color chemicals in the amounts I use.

Adding a bit of solution from the 1L kit is also a great idea, but personally I would decant the rest of the unmixed chemicals into a smaller bottle that is as full as possible, especially the blix as I find that to be the most oxidation-prone part.

[Patrick Gauthier]

What about something like the SP-445 tank? 4 sheets of 4x5 with 475 ml of solution.

Also you can get Tetenal E-6 kits from Beau Photo in Vancouver they will ship. The 1 L kits are kind of pricey but the 5 L kits cost only about 50% more.

I've heard good things about those tanks. The volume to film ratio is great.

[Pere Casals]

E-6

For DIY E-6 there is a single option at the end: rotary.

A Jobo CPE2 or the like, and reuse chem one more time.

If you think CPE2 is expensive then you can do it like me, build DIY something equivalent. But DIY E-6 is for rotary...

[Corran]

I have developed hundreds of images using the 3-bath Tetenal kit with dip and dunk style processing. You don't have to use rotary.

[Pere Casals]

I have developed hundreds of images using the 3-bath Tetenal kit with dip and dunk style processing. You don't have to use rotary.

True, rotary it is not necessary, but it is highly economic/convenient for DIY low volume. A roll (or four 4x5 sheets) requires only 80cc of each Colortec bath. Imagine you have 4 rolls. With tanks one option is to employ 1L and store it mixed and used (very bad thing), the other option is to mix 325cc and repeat development 4 times, one time for each roll, it will take 3 hours !!!

High/medium volume of sheets is another thing, but low volume leads to mixing what you need and using the system that needs less liquid to cover the film, and this is rotary, IMHO.

[Corran]

Economy is certainly a different situation. The way I read your post was stating you couldn't use anything but rotary for some reason.

Personally I mix 2.5L of solution and use it over and over in tanks for 4x5, and it lasts in full bottles up to and past 6 months at a time. Color of the solution and clip tests alert me to issues arising and I throw out the chemicals when exhausted or really old. If I only did roll film I would want less solution. With 4x5 I develop in 6-sheet batches, or 2-3 rolls at a time in the tanks.

As for rotary - I have BTZS tubes but swapping out the different baths is really hard in the dark and prone to accidents. I have done this on occasion with 8x10, but only one sheet at a time. Investing in a dedicated system like a Jobo is one solution but after seeing and using one at the university I used to work at I felt it was not something I was interested in. Personally I have been watching eagerly as this guy develops a new system - http://www.filmomat.eu/ - and I would like to purchase one when he makes them available for overseas purchase. Expensive though.

[Pere Casals]

Economy is certainly a different situation. The way I read your post was stating you couldn't use anything but rotary for some reason.

Personally I mix 2.5L of solution and use it over and over in tanks for 4x5, and it lasts in full bottles up to and past 6 months at a time. Color of the solution and clip tests alert me to issues arising and I throw out the chemicals when exhausted or really old. If I only did roll film I would want less solution. With 4x5 I develop in 6-sheet batches, or 2-3 rolls at a time in the tanks.

As for rotary - I have BTZS tubes but swapping out the different baths is really hard in the dark and prone to accidents. I have done this on occasion with 8x10, but only one sheet at a time. Investing in a dedicated system like a Jobo is one solution but after seeing and using one at the university I used to work at I felt it was not something I was interested in. Personally I have been watching eagerly as this guy develops a new system - http://www.filmomat.eu/ - and I would like to purchase one when he makes them available for overseas purchase. Expensive though.

Of course rotary is not the only choice, I did not write it clearly...

Until now I was using the CPE2 of a friend, by now I'm finishing my own DIY rotary processor. It is not a big thechnologic challenge to make a tank rotate alternatively in a thermostatic water bath :)

I only mix the amount I'm to use, then I spray some preserving gas on the concentrate bottles. This favours using the 5L kit, that here is €79 (http://dispara.org/tienda/es/quimica-laboratorio/750-e6-kit-tetenal-5-litros.html) While 2.5L kit is €65 (https://www.fotocasion.es/catalogo/colortec-tetenal-e-6-kit-3-banos-25-l/44116/), this is 50% more expensive per liter.

It looks that now the 5L kit is not as easy to find.... are they going to kill it ?

[Corran]

It looks that now the 5L kit is not as easy to find.... are they going to kill it ?

Bad news, it's already dead. Any 5L kits you find are remaining stock from what I understand. I believe Tetenal basically axed the 5L kit and maybe the 1L kit and now only offers a 2.5L kit. Reducing SKUs I imagine.

Unfortunately this has caused the price per ounce to increase a lot from US suppliers. I am still trying to ascertain options for sourcing chemicals direct from Tetenal or Europe/UK as they are cheaper over there than from US suppliers, but shipping is an issue (ORM-D). Interestingly with Brexit some of the shipping regulations may change. For now I have some Arista chemicals to try.

[Patrick Gauthier]

Adding a bit of solution from the 1L kit is also a great idea, but personally I would decant the rest of the unmixed chemicals into a smaller bottle that is as full as possible, especially the blix as I find that to be the most oxidation-prone part.

Thanks for this, also you mention you keep E-6 working solutions for up to and beyond 6 months in full bottles?


Personally I mix 2.5L of solution and use it over and over in tanks for 4x5, and it lasts in full bottles up to and past 6 months at a time.

Any other storage considerations here (e.g., temperaturea and bottle material)?

[Corran]

Yes, I store mixed solution for a long time in full bottles, up to and beyond 6 months in the past. Might be a bit dangerous, but in several years of developing C-41 and E-6 I've only ruined one roll of film after pushing it way too far and using chemicals to exhaustion.

The bottles I use are opaque, but I used to store them in my shed/darkroom which would get up to 90-100 degrees F in the summer. I don't really know if that matters or not but it didn't seem to cause undue degradation of the chemicals. YMMV.

[Patrick Gauthier]

For DIY E-6 there is a single option at the end: rotary.

A Jobo CPE2 or the like, and reuse chem one more time.

If you think CPE2 is expensive then you can do it like me, build DIY something equivalent. But DIY E-6 is for rotary...

One day perhaps. My outfit is very minimalist to match my needs (~ 24 sheets of B&W per month | ~ 20 sheets of C-41 or E-6 per year). Also, my wife would be very unimpressed if a rotary system appeared in our small 500 sq ft condo! I already get some flack about my 20 L water bath and immersion heater, which I can get away with because I also use it to cook sous-vide from time to time (multipurpose ftw).

I would opt to send out my E-6, but the cost savings in getting these kits is substantial (about 2 months worth of my favored Ilford delta 100).

[Pere Casals]

Bad news, it's already dead. Any 5L kits you find are remaining stock from what I understand. I believe Tetenal basically axed the 5L kit and maybe the 1L kit and now only offers a 2.5L kit. Reducing SKUs I imagine.

Unfortunately this has caused the price per ounce to increase a lot from US suppliers. I am still trying to ascertain options for sourcing chemicals direct from Tetenal or Europe/UK as they are cheaper over there than from US suppliers, but shipping is an issue (ORM-D). Interestingly with Brexit some of the shipping regulations may change. For now I have some Arista chemicals to try.



Yes, bad news, really. True, in UK it is way cheaper, http://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/tetenal-colortec-e6-kit-25-litres/p6504....

[Pali K]

I only mix solution in 300 or 500 ML batches based on the size of the film I need to process. I have been able to store the chemicals concentrates for 7+ months until I use it all with Tetenal Protectant Spray. The spray lasts a long time and I am still using my first bottle that I bought 1.5 years ago.

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/105193-Tetenal-Protectan-Spray-400ml

Hope this helps. I too used to use 5L bottles but was forced to move to 2.5L because of the change.

Pali

[Corran]

20 sheets of C-41 or E-6 per year

Seems like an awfully low number to bother developing at home. I'm not sure what prices are up in Canada but over here I was getting color 4x5 developed for $3.00 a sheet. 20 sheets a year, a total of $80 or so after shipping, that's really not much. Two kits, one each C-41 and E-6, will likely cost quite a bit more than that and I wouldn't try to stretch the time to a year or more, but Pali says he's done it so I guess it may be okay. Just seems like quite a risk for not much gain monetarily by keeping the chemicals for a loooong time. I got into color developing after spending $500 on color developing in a few months with lots and lots of rolls and sheets.


http://www.freestylephoto.biz/105193-Tetenal-Protectan-Spray-400ml


I'll order some of this next time I buy chemicals. Never tried it, so maybe I'll get a bit more time on the chemicals with such a thing.