Color Developing Tempered Bath Heater

[highkrausen]

Anyone by chance see/use something like this for a tempering bath? Thinking this will solve my DIY project. Set increments of 0.5F and accuracy of +/- 0.1F seems too good to be true.

Anova Culinary PCB-120US-K1 Precision Cooker (https://www.amazon.com/Anova-Culinary-PCB-120US-K1-Bluetooth-Precision/dp/B00UKPBXM4/ref=pd_sbs_328_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00UKPBXM4&pd_rd_r=W2VJQ3K0T8KZD5HDXJ9M&pd_rd_w=8dAHn&pd_rd_wg=ymgFR&psc=1&refRID=W2VJQ3K0T8KZD5HDXJ9M)

Temp Range: 77°F to 210°F ± 0.01°F / 25°C to 99°C ± 0.01°C
Pump Speed: 1 - 1.2 GPM 7-8 LPM (still optimizing)
Directional Pump: 360 Degree
Tank Capacity: 4-5 Gallons / 15-19 Liters
Timer: 99 Hours
Safety: Bi-Metal Fuse
Power Input: 110-120VAC
Heating Power: 800W

[Eric Woodbury]

Pretty nifty. Never would have thought such a thing existed. And connected to my phone. Not sure about the food thing, but might be great in the darkroom first thing in the morning (while I sleep) to get everything up to temp. Very interesting.

[Vaughn]

What an interesting device -- and an interesting cooking method it is designed for. All new to me!

If it is true to its specs, I can see other uses besides water baths for color chemistry. Carbon printers need to keep gelatin at temp with less accuracy than this device is capable of, and the range of temps is right.

It is for the food industry, thus not priced for the photographer or scientist. I have no idea about the accuracy of Amazon reviews, but for what it is designed for, it gets great ones.

[Drew Wiley]

Hard to say. I've had recirculating thermoregulators that would keep water baths plus or minus 1/10 degree F. Generally overkill, so I rarely hook one up and
warm up my color chemistry with a simple Jobo tempering box. But you get what you pay for; and a serious thermoregulator would be about ten times the price
of that kitchen gadget.

[Drew Wiley]

...More likely, that is just the plus or minus ability of the readout, not the ability to actually maintain that level of bath accuracy. I suspect a significant marketing BS coeffiecint in play. But it might be good enough for some things.

[highkrausen]

Totally agree on value/cost. I just ordered one. Will test in my small cooler and report back. Even if it doesn't hold temp, it should make heating the bath easier while doing other things.

[highkrausen]

...More likely, that is just the plus or minus ability of the readout

I thought this too but in the comments it says 0.5F adjustment and 0.1F readout. I'm sure the 0.01F accuracy is the element, not the ability to maintain water accuracy. I should have been in marketing...but then I'd probably own a Jobo.

With enough water heated, once development starts, it'll probably get shut off anyway.

[dpn]

I almost bought one of these units yesterday. I held back not because of color temperatures, but because it can't maintain 68F water.

I have a CPE2 that's awful at holding temperatures (probably because I screwed it up when I replaced its thermostat). For the money, those recirculating sous vide jobs sound great, especially calibrated against a known good thermometer.

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

What a great device! I have a large laboratory water bath that I use to bring chemicals to temperature and for toning (and have used to cook sous vide with a stainless steel insert). It maintains .1 degree with pretty good accuracy, and probably cost thousands of dollars when it was new. This looks really interesting, especially considering the footprint of my water bath. Might just get one...

As an aside, there are lots of DIY sous vide instructions online to make immersion heaters run by a PID controller for less money but more effort, for example this (http://seattlefoodgeek.com/2010/02/diy-sous-vide-heating-immersion-circulator-for-about-75/).

[sheel]

I have one of these for cooking and love it. This is a very timely post, as I'm trying to figure out how to setup my own bath system for C41 and E6 processing using the Anova. I have most of the materials, except something to automatically rotate my Jobo 2520 and/or Patterson tank.

It's perfect... the food comes out delicious btw, particularly steaks :)

[Corran]

Neat. Way back when I first started experimenting with color developing I saw something like this (more low-tech) and thought it might work, but didn't test the theory.

My question on this type of device is how large of a water bath could it heat reliably and would it be damaged if run for an extended period of time (hours). Looking forward to what you find out.

[sheel]

Neat. Way back when I first started experimenting with color developing I saw something like this (more low-tech) and thought it might work, but didn't test the theory.

My question on this type of device is how large of a water bath could it heat reliably and would it be damaged if run for an extended period of time (hours). Looking forward to what you find out.

Hi Corran, these things are made to run for hours on end.

For example, I did a 16 hour bath, at 165 degrees to cook a ribs, sou-vide recipe. The device itself is very simple, it has a coil to heat up the water, and a spinning blade to circulate the water, and keeps the temp constant, w/ little to no fluctuation - I have not tested the accuracy, but the method/tool works perfectly for cooking.

The minimum water depth is just shy of 3", but recommended immersion depth of 7" for best results, up to 5 gallons of water - can pump 2.1 GPM, 8 LPM according to the specifications. This is the same size as the jobo container.

[Corran]

That's good to know. I am surprised it can temper 5 gallons of water. Now I see that spec on the sale page but that seems like a lot to temper evenly. I use a large plastic basin with 3-4 metal dip 'n' dunk tanks for color developing, with a recirculating water heater made by Arkay. It's big and noisy so I certainly wouldn't mind replacing it with something like this if it heated the basin uniformly across the whole length (16-20 inches I think).

[sheel]

That's good to know. I am surprised it can temper 5 gallons of water. Now I see that spec on the sale page but that seems like a lot to temper evenly. I use a large plastic basin with 3-4 metal dip 'n' dunk tanks for color developing, with a recirculating water heater made by Arkay. It's big and noisy so I certainly wouldn't mind replacing it with something like this if it heated the basin uniformly across the whole length (16-20 inches I think).

Yes exactly, plus it doubles for an awesome cooker ;)

I use mine in two containers - stainless steel 16 quart containe (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0030T1KR0/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1)r, which I probably fill with about 3-4 gallons of water, and the other is a 6 quart ceramic bowl from my crock pot (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003OATAZ4/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1) that I fill to the brim.

I've been researching this exact issue for the past couple days, because I don't feel like dropping $1500 for a CPP2... I'm just not sure how to automatically rotate the tank yet...

[sheel]

A couple accuracy tests/experiences from the web...

http://www.seriouseats.com/2013/12/sous-vide-circulator-review-sansaire-nomiku-anova.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/sousvide/comments/2m1laf/anova_temperature_difference/
http://sousvideguys.com/2015/04/anova-precision-cooker-review/

The Anova can be calibrated... and here's a blurb from the company site...


Your system is pre-calibrated to a scientific primary platinum standard before arrival. This platinum standard is far more accurate than any consumer grade thermometer. If you still want to adjust your temperature read bias please read below.

[highkrausen]

Appreciate all the comments, great stuff. I built a 1/2 barrel automated brewing system from scratch that will maintain 20 gallons at about +/- 0.5° for hours. All automated from a tablet. If it weren't for the chemicals, I could use that. I thought about replicating that on smaller scale and adding a motor to spin a canister. I also questioned why so stubborn not to just buy a Jobo.

Based on feedback from others, I am ditching the idea of building something myself. Lots of experience from others says that hitting temp on developer is critical, the rest is important but not make/break. A good bath will only drop a few deg over the total duration anyway. A cooler might even mitigate the temp drop altogether.

I guess steaks on Sat night too...


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[Leszek Vogt]

Instead chomping on steaks I'll just research this some more. Thanks to Jason. Just looked up on Amazon and there are whole pile of parts to put together controllable immersion heater....even below $50USD.

Les

[EdSawyer]

Something like a Photo Therm model 14 is a great choice if you can find one used. Generally they are not too expensive, $50-150 depending on size and condition. I have one and it works well for tempering.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/301857448095?rmvSB=true

[DHodson]

Have a look at this article in Emulsive ( http://emulsive.org/articles/a-guide-to-developing-your-own-e6-film-by-kikie-wilkins ). The author uses the exact same one developing their E-6

Regards
Dave

[Drew Wiley]

The basic problem is simple. At that kind of wattage, in order to keep the water consistently heated, the device itself emits too much waste heat to handle the
lower end of our range, namely 68F. Sometimes its easy to offset this with a simple drip line of cold water entering the water jacket. But not all heaters even
have an adjustment setting that low. I had a wonderful CPI AccuTemp recirculator that easily held water baths within 1/10F, but it finally wore out, and they've
long been out of business. I can't find anything functionally equivalent for under 2K from scientific houses, so might be tempted to tinker with the innards of my
big Calumet unit. One more project that's not a priority. Fancy water mixing valves don't even come close. But that kitchen gadget seems inexpensive enough
to present minimal risk. I just buy into the mantra that a tenth degree of READOUT corresponds to a real tenth of a degree of activity, at that price.

[Peter De Smidt]

For cooking, I'd worry about chemicals from the plastic leaching into the food. That's why you don't want to drink plastic bottled water that's been left in your car in the summer. But that's just a hypothesis.

For darkroom use, I'd use a PID controller, thermocouple, silicone heating element (or quality aquarium heater), and a small aquarium pump. This would likely be cheaper and more versatile, as you could set it to any temp above ambient. Obviously it would be more work.

People use PID controllers for regulating the temp of smokers, fermenters, espresso machines....

[Drew Wiley]

Depends on your process. Cibachrome chem was tolerant of about 3 degree swings, while RA4 is distinctly tighter or will show color irregularity print to print.
Very tight tolerances apply to my needs only in matched color separation negatives and companion masks. For everything else, a simple water jacket works.
With tempering baths, you need to wait for the gradient to equalize, both vertically in the water itself, and in relation to the actual temp inside your chemical bottles. Recirculating pumps themselves add extra heat, which must be factored and offset with a drip line or blue ice pack if they are used for quicker equalization. Most color processes call for higher temperatures anyway, but many sheet films will risk edge frilling around 75F or above.

[highkrausen]

Jackpot! Finally got around to mixing chemistry and developing a couple test rolls of film. Here's some notes from my first (ever) color development:

First, anyone reading this that is scared of color development... Other than the temperature of the Developer/Blix, it was VERY similar, and shorter, than my B&W development.

The kit I used was Unicolor 1L. Easier than B&W to mix, but definitely much harsher chems.

The picture of the London Eye was from a roll of 35mm Kodak Gold 200. It was shot on a Minolta X-700 with banged up 50mm lens I inherited from my grandparents ;)
Not nearly an expert in that film's capacity, but all of the frames turned out similar and within expectation given the film's "quality".

Temp Control
-heating period from 80F to 102F took about 20 minutes (obviously, could have been shortened if I used hotter water to start).
-chemistry was mixed slightly warmer than room temperature and then took about 15 min to heat up (in the future I'll do this simultaneously with the bath heating)
-the Anova cooker EASILY held the temp at 102F within less than +/- 0.3F variance (verified by 2 trustworthy thermometers - one analog and one digital).

I did not put any insulation around the tub/bin so I kept the cooker running during the development. Without it running, there was an average heat loss of about 5F in the first hour (67F ambient).

Overall...I am more than thrilled with the results and ease of using the cooker to hold tempering bath temp. I'm going to develop some Ektar 100 and Portra 400 4x5 this week. Will share those results as well. Hoping my chems will hold up a week in the fridge.

https://c4.staticflickr.com/6/5747/30611613443_982c1babfe_b.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5536/31303780161_1bae301a69_b.jpg

[rbultman]

Congrats. I bought the ANOVA some time ago exclusively for this purpose. It worked very well for me and it was my first time using C-41 color chemistry. I don't have a means for determining if the process was controlled well, I can only say it worked as well as the rolls I had lab-developed previously. I plan to repeat with E6 when I get a chance.

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[Ironage]

Thanks for posting this. I'll be getting one of these.


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[sheel]

Quick update... I dev'd color (C41) for the first time ever in my life yesterday, and used my Anova to maintain water.

I stored my chems in relatively thick glass, and it took me a bit of effort to get the chemicals to the right temp, but the anova maintained water temperature consistent w/ my thermometer

Samples below - please keep in mind this is my first dev, and I'm still calibrating my monitor and epson v800:

https://c8.staticflickr.com/6/5635/30614359583_0cafe7305b_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/NDhAvV)r013-06 (https://flic.kr/p/NDhAvV) by Sheel Kapur (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sheelkapur/), on Flickr

https://c5.staticflickr.com/6/5652/31052422700_9639a9277a_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/PiZMqh)r013-10 (https://flic.kr/p/PiZMqh) by Sheel Kapur (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sheelkapur/), on Flickr

https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5748/30600245264_d09a11da87_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/NC3fPA)r013-03 (https://flic.kr/p/NC3fPA) by Sheel Kapur (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sheelkapur/), on Flickr

[Drew Wiley]

These kinds of devices are intended for sustaining temperature, not for use as water heaters! You should start with tap water mixed just slightly below your intended working temperature. Otherwise, you're going to prematurely burn out your temp regulating device.

[highkrausen]

sheel - Great pics! What film/format?

Drew - Agree, or even start with bath water higher than your desired processing temp - assuming the chemistry will bring the bath temp down as the chems warmup.

[sheel]

sheel - Great pics! What film/format?

Drew - Agree, or even start with bath water higher than your desired processing temp - assuming the chemistry will bring the bath temp down as the chems warmup.

Thanks! It's Kodak Portra 160 6x7 using Plaubel Makina 67...

[stawastawa]

Can anyone comment on how well it works in ambient temperatures of 37*F? or subfreezing?
~nicholas

[highkrausen]

Put together a little video of how I do my color film development for anyone interested.

https://youtu.be/x5bSqpfrkZs

[greginpa]

Another option. I noticed another poster in a different thread mentioned one of these. So I got one. Works great. Cheap as well. A used surplus laboratory tempering bath. 17.50 plus shipping on ebay. Mine is 12" x 14" or so and about 6" deep. It has a lid that you can put on it while it warms up the water.

[EMULSIVE]

Have a look at this article in Emulsive ( http://emulsive.org/articles/a-guide-to-developing-your-own-e6-film-by-kikie-wilkins ). The author uses the exact same one developing their E-6

Regards
Dave

Thanks for sharing, Dave. It's a pretty interesting and rather robust solution. So much so that I found myself inspired to try it out for myself.

Looks like 2017 is going to be sous vide E6 and C41 at EMULSIVE HQ :)

[DHodson]

Let us know how you make out. I'm still battling my way through B&W but eventually I'd like to try my hand at some colour.

Dave

[EMULSIVE]

Thusfar, my attempts at colour have been one-offs, treating the chems I was given as one-shot.

It's a waste but has been fun to try bleach bypass and XPRO (with bleach bypass). Hoping to write an article about my color film development adventures later this year.