ABC Pyro versus PyroCat HD for contact printing

[agregov]

Hi all. Was lucky enough to attend Michael Smith and Paula Chamlee's workshop this last Spring. I've been working on getting film development times for TRX for contact printing on Lodima papers. I thought I would compare developing negs by inspection in ABC Pyro to developing them in PyroCat HD in a Jobo (via Expert drum). I developed the negatives via both developers and a curious thing happened. Looking at the negatives on a light table, they both looked pretty comparable. In fact, I thought the PryoCat HD neg looked a bit better than the ABC neg. But when I went to contact print them, the PyroCat neg took 6 times as long to print as the ABC neg (22 sec to print the PyroCat image versus 3.5 sec for ABC)! Also, the ABC negative had deeper blacks than the PyroCat neg. Here were the specifics for my test:

ABC NEGATIVE & PRINT
Kodak TXP 4x5, shot 100asa
Formulary ABC Pryo (Smith formula) @10M (DBI)
Lodima Grade 3, 3.5s exposure

PYROCAT HD NEGATIVE & PRINT
Kodak TXP 4x5, shot 100asa
PyroCat HD 2:2:100 @12M (Jobo Expert CPP3)
Lodima Grade 3, 22s exposure

Questions for fellow contact printers or those more familiar with differences between ABC Pyro and other pyro developers like PyroCat:

1. Why would a PryoCat HD negative need 6 times the exposure time versus a ABC developed negative, when contact printed on Lodima? Is it the PryoCat stain perhaps?
2. Why would a PyroCat HD negative show less overall contrast (weaker blacks) than a ABC developed negative when contact printed on Lodima?

I've attached an image to help visualize the differences. Many thanks for any insight!
158062

[Michael Kadillak]

First thing I will tell you is that with many sheet films you rarely need to expose for Pyrocat HD at the same film speed as with ABC pyro. The reason is that ABC creates a long film "toe" whereas the PCat begins the up cycle much quicker. Although I am not intimately familiar with using TXP your excessive printing times with P Cat tell me deductively you over exposed it using a 100 ASA film speed. It is not caused by the stain.

[Gary Samson]

Hi all. Was lucky enough to attend Michael Smith and Paula Chamlee's workshop this last Spring. I've been working on getting film development times for TRX for contact printing on Lodima papers. I thought I would compare developing negs by inspection in ABC Pyro to developing them in PyroCat HD in a Jobo (via Expert drum). I developed the negatives via both developers and a curious thing happened. Looking at the negatives on a light table, they both looked pretty comparable. In fact, I thought the PryoCat HD neg looked a bit better than the ABC neg. But when I went to contact print them, the PyroCat neg took 6 times as long to print as the ABC neg (22 sec to print the PyroCat image versus 3.5 sec for ABC)! Also, the ABC negative had deeper blacks than the PyroCat neg. Here were the specifics for my test:

ABC NEGATIVE & PRINT
Kodak TXP 4x5, shot 100asa
Formulary ABC Pryo (Smith formula) @10M (DBI)
Lodima Grade 3, 3.5s exposure

PYROCAT HD NEGATIVE & PRINT
Kodak TXP 4x5, shot 100asa
PyroCat HD 2:2:100 @12M (Jobo Expert CPP3)
Lodima Grade 3, 22s exposure

Questions for fellow contact printers or those more familiar with differences between ABC Pyro and other pyro developers like PyroCat:

1. Why would a PryoCat HD negative need 6 times the exposure time versus a ABC developed negative, when contact printed on Lodima? Is it the PryoCat stain perhaps?
2. Why would a PyroCat HD negative show less overall contrast (weaker blacks) than a ABC developed negative when contact printed on Lodima?

I've attached an image to help visualize the differences. Many thanks for any insight!
158062

As a start, I think your Pyrocat negatives are over developed in the Jobo and also possibly over exposed. I would suggest running another test and reducing your development time.

[sanking]

As a start, I think your Pyrocat negatives are over developed in the Jobo and also possibly over exposed. I would suggest running another test and reducing your development time.

I agree.

ABC Pyro and PyrocatHD are both tanning /staining developers that should print almost identically if developed to the same minimum density (DMin) and density range (DR).

The fact that your PyrocatHD negatives need about 2X longer to print suggests that they are over exposed, that they have less contrast suggests under development.

Good way to test this would be to read the densities with a transmission densitometer. If you were to do this I am fairly certain that you would find that the DMin of the PyrocatHD negatives is higher than that of the ABC Pyro negatives, and that the overall density range (DR) is less.

Sandy

[agregov]

My PyroCat "N" TXP asa for silver printing on multigrade is a 100asa (14m dev) using 1:1:100 (10 negs processed at a time in 1lt chemistry in Jobo). That's why I started at 100 asa with the 2:2:100 dilution. The 2:2:100 developer must be much more active? I'll try another PyroCat test pass metering at 200asa or above if needed. Many thanks for the help everyone.

[Steve Sherman]

Hi all. Was lucky enough to attend Michael Smith and Paula Chamlee's workshop this last Spring. I've been working on getting film development times for TRX for contact printing on Lodima papers. I thought I would compare developing negs by inspection in ABC Pyro to developing them in PyroCat HD in a Jobo (via Expert drum). I developed the negatives via both developers and a curious thing happened. Looking at the negatives on a light table, they both looked pretty comparable. In fact, I thought the PryoCat HD neg looked a bit better than the ABC neg. But when I went to contact print them, the PyroCat neg took 6 times as long to print as the ABC neg (22 sec to print the PyroCat image versus 3.5 sec for ABC)! Also, the ABC negative had deeper blacks than the PyroCat neg. Here were the specifics for my test:

ABC NEGATIVE & PRINT
Kodak TXP 4x5, shot 100asa
Formulary ABC Pryo (Smith formula) @10M (DBI)
Lodima Grade 3, 3.5s exposure

PYROCAT HD NEGATIVE & PRINT
Kodak TXP 4x5, shot 100asa
PyroCat HD 2:2:100 @12M (Jobo Expert CPP3)
Lodima Grade 3, 22s exposure

Questions for fellow contact printers or those more familiar with differences between ABC Pyro and other pyro developers like PyroCat:

1. Why would a PryoCat HD negative need 6 times the exposure time versus a ABC developed negative, when contact printed on Lodima? Is it the PryoCat stain perhaps?
2. Why would a PyroCat HD negative show less overall contrast (weaker blacks) than a ABC developed negative when contact printed on Lodima?

I've attached an image to help visualize the differences. Many thanks for any insight!
158062

My thoughts on your comparison with some ABC experience, more PMK experience and considerable experience with Pyrocat HD is Pyrocat does not like too much exposure, TXP @ 100 ISO seems 1 - 1.5 stops over, that would explain increased exposure times to balance highlight densities in the two final prints. TXP @ 100 ISO Dev. in ABC seems more in line with that particular developer. As stated earlier, Pyrocat gets out of the Toe faster than any Pyro I've had experience with and that includes ABC and PMK. Once out of the Toe the Straight Line seems steeper to me and the mid tones seem to take more stain than the other two Pyro Dev. I have experience with.
IMHO, when the film is exposed properly with carefully controlled highlight density for the respective end process the Mid Tone / Micro Contrast with Pyrocat HD is superior to all other Pyrogallol based developers. Sandy might provide further validation, I believe because Pyrocat operates in a higher PH environment leads to more stability and activity as development progresses where as ABC begins to oxidize rather quickly and with the surface oxidation within a Jobo tank could also lead to a less dense negative. A densitometer suited to measure stain would bear this out.

Lastly, I would suggest using a softer grade of paper to evaluate subtle tonality differences, even a # 1 if on hand.

Cheers !

[agregov]

Thank you Steve, very helpful.

For a bit more background for anyone curious, during the Michael Smith Workshop this last Spring, Paula gave us the DBI demo (using TRX) and she had mentioned that she had tried using Pyrocat at one point but found her negatives to not have as much contrast as ABC developed negatives. To be clear, neither Paula nor Michael dissuaded any of us from using Pyrocat over ABC. They just stated their own direct experience. As I'm already a Jobo and Expert drum/Pyrocat HD user, I wanted to see if I could equal the contrast characteristics of ABC developed negatives with Pyrocat in the Jobo, specifically for contact printing on silver chloride papers.

One side point related to drum processing Michael brought up, as a positive for DBI, he has hand developed up to 14 negatives in one batch as opposed to a max of five in a Jobo 3005 Expert drum. He said he comes back from trips with hundreds of 8x10 negs and it would take him forever to process negs using something like a Jobo. Given a 1lt max for most Jobo processing, even five 8x10 negs might be pushing it using Pyrocat (from what I've experienced and read). So, he has a great point on the plus side for DBI for 8x10 or larger negs. But for me, I'd like to see if I can get developing 8x10 negs in a Jobo and that means Pyrocat HD. When (if) I ever get to an expertise level where I'm coming back from shooting with hundreds of 8x10 negatives, I think that will be a good problem to have!

Thanks again for the notes all. Best.