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sepiareverb
22-Nov-2016, 15:46
As of today, all chemistry including powders are 'Store Pickup Only".

Jac@stafford.net
22-Nov-2016, 15:50
WTF? Rationale?

Might this be an opportunity to a distributed network of suppliers?
.

Cameron Cornell
22-Nov-2016, 15:54
Oh no, it's starting.

Cameron Cornell
22-Nov-2016, 15:59
I just called. The fellow in the darkroom department said that UPS just changed its regulations and that shipping chemistry was no longer allowed. He said that it was a permanent change.

BetterSense
22-Nov-2016, 15:59
they already failed to ship the chemistry I was interested in, for years now. I have had to source my Rodinal and rapid fix elsewhere. What did they actually still ship, but don't anymore?

faberryman
22-Nov-2016, 16:07
I just got fixer and developer in last week.

BetterSense
22-Nov-2016, 16:08
Maybe it was just the Rodinal, which is ORM-D, that tipped me over to buying all my chemistry elsewhere. It's simpler to order from one place.

sepiareverb
22-Nov-2016, 16:14
Ah, that is new news, that UPS is the culprit. Does B&H not use Fed-Ex at all anymore?

Banning the powders seems pretty hyper frightened. And Permawash? Gosh that seems so super dangerous.

Drew Wiley
22-Nov-2016, 16:29
I was under the impression that NYC has some special restrictions, or at least distinct headaches related to parcel shipments of chemicals which might affect
their overhead and paperwork. Just buy what you need elsewhere.

sepiareverb
22-Nov-2016, 16:39
...Just buy what you need elsewhere.

Of course, cost, convenience and time be damned. Apologies for the needless scare if you can just pop downtown and get your DD-X and Oriental Seagull.

Many of us have no local option for 99% of our materials and supplies. I can drive 6 hours to Boston and back and not come home with everything I might need. Burlington is a sure bet to get negative pages for 35mm film and a liter of Sprint Fixer. Nothing else I use.

I spend a good bit of money every year on supplies, I appreciated the savings that B&H afforded me. I purchase from other suppliers as well, but only if I can't get what I need at B&H, because they were always cheaper (even if only a little bit), shipped for free (again only a small savings), and I received my order in two days. The timeframe is important sometimes when a client emails asking for a certain look. Plus there was never any fear of them Selling me something they didn't have in stock like Adorama has done to me over and over again (When B&H is out of stock I've learned that Adorama is almost certainly as well, despite what they may tell you).

I suspect that many here relied on B&H as I have (since 1990 via the quaint telephone order - those accents always brought me right back home), and that this will be a substantial change to our practice of photography. Thought it was important to know since those of us on the east coast will now have a week to ten day wait for chemistry from Freestyle.

Drew Wiley
22-Nov-2016, 17:00
Gosh. If fresh tulips from Holland get sold on the streets of SF, and Greek restaurants around here get ingredients shipped from another continent, what's the big
deal about shipping something a little further within the US? If you have a gripe with B&H, take it up with them. Yeah, I'm a bit disappointed that I can't just drive five minutes down the street and buy a full range of darkroom chemicals from a specialty supplier anymore. I can drive five minutes the other direction and get a lot of common darkroom chemicals. But I have had specialty products shipped in not only from Formulary in Montana but various chem suppliers in NYC itself. If that is what they do, they'll do it. B&H has apparently spread its wings more and more into electronics. Chemical distribution has its own headaches. For example, you'd be amazed at what people are willing to smoke or inject, like chromium or vanadium salts. That means special paperwork. If you want to poison yourself, that's one thing; but the DEA wants to stop it, and might demand shipping documentation. B&H is still a good source for many traditional photo supplies like film,paper, and filters, even if film camera and enlargers themselves have dramatically thinned out due to overwhelming competition from the used market.

jk0592
22-Nov-2016, 17:07
Not to mention that B&H is a convenient store for Canadian buyers. An important source of materials gone...Let us hope that they will revise this extreme policy.

Oren Grad
22-Nov-2016, 17:14
Thought it was important to know...

It is - it's a substantial change and it affects many of us. Thanks for reporting it here.

Drew Wiley
22-Nov-2016, 17:28
They CAN'T revise the policy. It's out of their hands. The parcel carriers are dictating this. Sure, you might be able to still buy fifteen bucks of powder, but with a
forty buck ground-only surcharge on it, which means it would come slow anyway, and you'd complain about B&H even more. Not worth the fuss for them.

neil poulsen
22-Nov-2016, 17:31
Back to UPS, I've had my own, long-standing policy. I refuse to use UPS for any kind of shipping. I find them to be arrogant.

Keith Pitman
22-Nov-2016, 17:40
Hmmm, just order Dektol and Kodak Fixer. Order went right through. Either not fully implemented or not comprehensive.

Also, I like UPS. Friendly with the drivers who come here. Reliable service. On the other hand, FedEx is terrible. Why can't they find my front door for deliveries?

jp
22-Nov-2016, 17:50
I'm guessing it's not convenient to deal with the shipping requirements and potential financial risks such as in this article:
https://www.engadget.com/2016/06/14/amazon-angers-faa-by-shipping-industrial-chemicals-via-ups/

It's a shame though as it sort of eliminates the popular east coast one-stop-shop for darkroom photo supplies.
I've been making my own film developer, but still typically had ordered fixer and paper developer from B&H. (usually in conjunction with a valuable quantity of film or paper)

I have ordered from formulary directly, but shipping is more expensive since it's further, and it's of course slower due to the distances.

Corran
22-Nov-2016, 17:51
Lame. This has already been an issue with some chemicals previously - B&H was/is the only supplier of ACU-1 and then they stopped allowing shipment of that chemical at all a few years ago. Now this.

I haven't looked into it heavily but after ordering a bulk amount of an uncommon developer direct from Europe at a savings of over 70% from what Freestyle sells it for, I have been thinking about buying more general chemistry items direct from overseas. With Britain having voted to exit the EU I am also wondering if there will be changes in regulations furthering this possibility (not political, just stating facts here).

Glad I stocked up on chemicals recently.

Another option, which I've used heavily in the last couple of years, is Unique Photo. I have been very happy with their prices and service.

sepiareverb
22-Nov-2016, 18:02
...If you have a gripe with B&H, take it up with them...


They CAN'T revise the policy. It's out of their hands...

Which is it? Now I'm really confused.



...I can drive five minutes the other direction and get a lot of common darkroom chemicals...

How do you stand it man? 5 minutes the wrong way down the road. Must be heartbreaking.:rolleyes:



...But I have had specialty products shipped in not only from Formulary in Montana but various chem suppliers in NYC itself...

Most of us are void your special connections to Amidol/Beers Variant 2 or home-brewed Ilfosol-3 better than the original flown in by carrier pigeon or canadaian goose driven ballon. We are forced to get the supplies we actually use from actual suppliers like B&H who have delivered chemistry reliably and in a consistent time frame for the last twenty plus years. A change in this is important to us. I understand your private stock isn't affected, but for us on the other side of the tracks this is an important change. Not to mention the potential downstream effects on small chemistry companies. If B&H now sells something like LPD in 10% the quantity that it did last year that may be the end of LPD. While you will likely already have someone formulating you a better private label version, most of the LPD users will be SOL.



... Just buy what you need elsewhere.

Oh right.

sepiareverb
22-Nov-2016, 18:05
...I haven't looked into it heavily but after ordering a bulk amount of an uncommon developer direct from Europe at a savings of over 70% from what Freestyle sells it for, I have been thinking about buying more general chemistry items direct from overseas...

I have done this as well. Got a great deal on the new version of Neutol NE in 5L jugs from FotoImpex. Even with the shipping a good bit less than Freestyle had it at the time. I decanted it into one-shot glass bottles and just finished the last of it about a year ago. Tho the pricing when I needed to re-stock made Freestyle a better deal on 1L bottles.

Fred L
22-Nov-2016, 18:53
Just checked and TF-5 can't be added to the cart anymore :( Hopefully PF can ship this to Canada otherwise it's find another source. Am presuming PMK and Pyrocat are in store only as well, I didn't have the nerve to check. To say this sucks is putting it mildly...

sepiareverb
22-Nov-2016, 19:01
.... To say this sucks is putting it mildly...

Remember, you can


... Just buy what you need elsewhere.

However those of us here in the real word agree with you Fred.

Greg Y
22-Nov-2016, 20:11
Fred, Formulary would ship TF-5.....but the cost of shipping was more than the cost of the TF-5....that's why I do a Montana run a couple of times a year.:(

Jim C.
22-Nov-2016, 20:24
If it's a UPS regulation it's UPS's own lame way of protecting themselves for their own gorilla-like handling of packages,
I recently had an order of materials for work that arrived with one of the containers empty, there was a nice crack on
the bottom of the container so it leaked out either in their trucks or shipping facility.
In fact packages I get from UPS seem like they were mishandled.

It's lousy for you guys that have to have to buy photo chemicals from B&H and have them shipped.

Michael Kadillak
22-Nov-2016, 20:51
If there is a market demand for this service, someone will fill the need. What about Freestyle?

Greg Y
22-Nov-2016, 21:02
It was hard to beat B&H price AND free shipping to Canada....

Duolab123
22-Nov-2016, 22:28
Hmmm, just order Dektol and Kodak Fixer. Order went right through. Either not fully implemented or not comprehensive.

Also, I like UPS. Friendly with the drivers who come here. Reliable service. On the other hand, FedEx is terrible. Why can't they find my front door for deliveries?

For some reason 1 gallon packages of Dektol, D-76, and Kodak fixer is still available and legal to transport, but not the 1 quart size of D-76. It's Xmas they are just tired of dealing with the shipping costs and the headaches.
Unique and Freestyle will be glad to get the business.
Best Mike

DennisD
23-Nov-2016, 07:32
I'm wondering about this situation...

If UPS does not want to handle chemicals, Why wouldn't B&H use another carrier, i.e. FedEx.
After all, they would rather sell than give the business to others, no ?
Do they have an exclusive agreement with UPS ?

Apparently the UPS decision about shipping chemicals does not affect Freestyle because they ship by other carriers who do not have a restriction about shipping chemicals, is that it ?
I have not dealt with Freestyle.

Being in the NY area, it's always been easier and faster to order and ship from B &H. We get UPS deliveries the next day. Even though I'm not far from the city, getting there and traffic is more of a hassle in recent years. So this new "rule" affects even those of us who are close by and need to order chemistry.

It's surprising B&H would give up the business instead of finding another option.

Renato Tonelli
23-Nov-2016, 07:34
It's a very Kafka-esque situation for me.

I was about to order chemistry for our darkroom at the college where I work and just received the quote from B&H this morning (total $4,800.) and under each item it says "this item cannot be shipped". The college is not very far from the B&H store but it would mean corralling a few students to help me carry it out, put it in a couple of taxi cabs (non-reimbursable expenses), run it up the college, unload it, put it on dollies, carry it to the darkroom... probably 2-3 hours of hassle, not counting NYC traffic.
The other NYC-area stores are not an option don't carry a lot of the chemistry we use.

Freestyle will cost a bit more but they ship and that's one option that is important to us.

Randy Moe
23-Nov-2016, 07:53
Perhaps we have missed the obvious.

My recent order for 11x14 HP5 took B&H 6 weeks to deliver off back order. Which surprised me as I had not encountered this problem before.

Could it be B&H doesn't find our business worth keeping?

Renato Tonelli
23-Nov-2016, 08:17
Perhaps we have missed the obvious.
Could it be B&H doesn't find our business worth keeping?

Perhaps we don't want to admit it - it does seem obvious to me.

greginpa
23-Nov-2016, 08:26
re discussion of others having higher shipping costs. Don't see it mentioned in the thread but Photographer's Formulary is having a free shipping deal at the moment. Order 65 bucks worth of stuff and it's free. No affiliation, just trying to support our remaining suppliers.

Cameron Cornell
23-Nov-2016, 08:42
Perhaps we have missed the obvious.

My recent order for 11x14 HP5 took B&H 6 weeks to deliver off back order. Which surprised me as I had not encountered this problem before.

Could it be B&H doesn't find our business worth keeping?

This is precisely what concerns me. When one of the principal suppliers scales back, it does not bode well. For now, there are others. But will that be true in another 10 years? As long as there is a demand, of course, there will presumably be a supply. But if there is no competition, the supply will become increasingly limited and expensive. It is a fascinating time to be an analog photographer! This is what the scribes must have felt who were around for the invention of the printing press.

Randy Moe
23-Nov-2016, 08:56
The plot thickens. B&H appears to be shipping PF chems free. Perhaps dumping?

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=Photographers+Formulary&gclid=CjwKEAiAmdXBBRD0hZCVkYHTl20SJACWsZj9ia7JVAVKYlV3BBWJgAI5X10ooP-pxrDF3CivO-DsexoCEMfw_wcB&c3api=4680%2C111336838379%2Cphotographers+formulary%2Ce&InitialSearch=yes&N=0

Cameron Cornell
23-Nov-2016, 09:02
And the plot thickens even further: I just called the hazardous materials department at UPS, and they said they have not changed their policies regarding photographic chemicals. Those changes come down from the government, and the woman on the line said that the government issues changes each quarter so a change in the last week isn't even possible.

Cameron Cornell
23-Nov-2016, 09:04
B&H must have told it's people to blame UPS, but obviously it was an internal decision to shut this down.

henryp
23-Nov-2016, 09:09
As of today, all chemistry including powders are 'Store Pickup Only".
In the wake of the ValuJet Flight 592 crash on May 11, 1996, the federal government (and more recently our shipping vendors) began cracking down on safety regulations for many different chemicals in airplane cargo holds. We don't ship ground so every order has to conform. We elected to observe the safety restrictions scrupulously and the result is a range of chemicals and similar items we cannot ship. Compressed air products like Beseler Duster fall under the same restrictions.

More recently there have been similar issues with lithium batteries.

I was raised on film and shot film professionally for 20 years. This situation is personally disappointing (although I know I can avail myself of store pick-up) but unfortunately unavoidable.

Randy Moe
23-Nov-2016, 09:12
Disappointing answer. I will be reducing all B$H purchases forthwith.

Corran
23-Nov-2016, 09:13
We don't ship ground

Why not?

Cameron Cornell
23-Nov-2016, 09:15
Disappointing answer. I will be reducing all B$H purchases forthwith.

+1

henryp
23-Nov-2016, 09:23
Perhaps we have missed the obvious.
My recent order for 11x14 HP5 took B&H 6 weeks to deliver off back order. Which surprised me as I had not encountered this problem before.
Could it be B&H doesn't find our business worth keeping?

The unfortunate reality is that the film side of photography, despite rumors of resurgence, continues to shrink as digital extends its domination. The number of customers buying 11x14 b&w sheet film is smaller than it's ever been. That 6-week delay was the length of time it took us to get the film from our vendor. It had nothing to do with any perceived lack of interest in your business or in the film business in general. I am sorry circumstances allowed you to develop (no pun intended) this misapprehension.

faberryman
23-Nov-2016, 09:28
Of course. Due to a plane crash twenty years ago, we decided that, effective yesterday, we will no longer ship chemicals. And of course, with the more recent lithium battery issues, we have decided to no longer ship digital cameras that include them, which means all digital cameras. They will remain available for store pickup though.

TroyG
23-Nov-2016, 09:30
Freestyle charges more per product and charges more for shipping. This is a real downer. I've heard some good things about Central Camera in Chicago. They're an order-by-phone type dealer. I have yet to check their prices, but they ship FedEx Ground.

Corran
23-Nov-2016, 09:34
Side note - you can actually ship lithium batteries under most normal situations (see here (http://pe.usps.gov/text/pub52/pub52c3_026.htm#ep900090)).

I am sure there are pages of restrictions and specifics on chemicals and such for USPS too, and 3rd party shippers. I am sure there is some way to mail chemicals - obviously, since every other retailer out there is doing it, 20-year-old plane crash not withstanding.

Randy Moe
23-Nov-2016, 10:01
No point in arguing or pleading with B&H. They have made a business decision, same as I would. I was also a retailer.

I am at least a 25 year B&H customer. They made huge improvements getting off phone sales and into the best Photographic sales website anywhere. I really appreciate their very deep catalog of useful oddities. I always tell friends they are out to beat the competition, such as Amazon.

I prefer shipping delivery of everything I buy, including food, to my door.

I also shop Central Camera Chicago and they carry PF chems at retail. I just don't like hauling it home on the train.

Shalom

Cameron Cornell
23-Nov-2016, 10:05
This analog photographer and 25+ year near-exclusive B&H equipment and chemistry customer has just started his own one-man boycott. It doesn't matter to B&H, of course, but all of the many little and big equipment purchases that I make will now go to their competitors.

domaz
23-Nov-2016, 10:48
Meanwhile PF TF-5 (https://www.amazon.com/Photographers-Formulary-03-0200-Archival-Darkroom/dp/B0045Y1H1S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1479923252&sr=8-1&keywords=tf-5+fixer) is available on Amazon Prime (free two-day shipping if you have it). Hmm.

Probably a little premature to say this is the end of days for getting chemistry shipped.

Cameron Cornell
23-Nov-2016, 10:51
Again, not that they're necessarily going to care, but here is the link to a spot where one can email customer service: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/contactForm.jsp#status

I'm going to let them know that they've lost my business.

sepiareverb
23-Nov-2016, 11:00
.... We don't ship ground so every order has to conform...

My order shipped yesterday via UPS Ground?

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff221/sepiareverb/Untitled%20copy.jpg (http://s239.photobucket.com/user/sepiareverb/media/Untitled%20copy.jpg.html)

tgtaylor
23-Nov-2016, 11:01
Are you all sure B&H is no longer shipping chemistry?

Mid-August I ordered 2 .9 ND B&W filters for my Pentax soft-focus lens so I no longer had to fiddle with the Cokin Z set-up when using those lens with the F6 and P645/67 and while I was at it placed 100gms of potassium ferricyanide in the cart. Normally I purchase all of my alt chemistry, toners, etc., from B&S or the Formulary but added the needed ferri because the shipping at that point was free and received my order 3 day after placing it.

I just went online to the B&H website and placed the same 100gm bottle of ferri in my cart and checked the shipping to my zip in California which was quoted at $3.50. Although I didn't make an extensive check, all of the other chemicals listed along with the ferri was eligible for shipping. I did check the color chemistry and all were, as always, pick up from store only. However there is confusion (?) with the B&W chemistry with some allowed to be shipped and others pick-up in store only. For example Dektol can be shipped but D-76 must be picked up. This is confusing and Henry should check into it.

Thomas

Larry the Sailor
23-Nov-2016, 18:29
This analog photographer and 25+ year near-exclusive B&H equipment and chemistry customer has just started his own one-man boycott. It doesn't matter to B&H, of course, but all of the many little and big equipment purchases that I make will now go to their competitors.

That makes at least two of us. :)

Michael Kadillak
23-Nov-2016, 19:03
That makes at least two of us. :)

Me as well. I sent B&H a scorching email centered around this myopic decision and the loss of my business from this point forward. When a company marginalizes legitimate market clientele I say screw em. I (and I hope many others) will take their business to someone that values their needs. I cannot for the life of me believe that if they wanted to deal with this issue from a solution desired perspective if it was the shipper that caused it that B&H could not find an alternative.

dentkimterry
23-Nov-2016, 19:37
Have always ordered my black and white chemicals from B&H. Just made my first chemical order from Freestyle. Ordered Kodak HC-110 which B&H hasn't shipped for years. Guess it's the way of the future for me.
Terry

sepiareverb
23-Nov-2016, 20:40
Are you all sure B&H is no longer shipping chemistry?

Mid-August I ordered...

This is new as of yesterday.

No, not everything it would appear, as Permawash still will ship today, but:

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff221/sepiareverb/microphen.jpg (http://s239.photobucket.com/user/sepiareverb/media/microphen.jpg.html)

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff221/sepiareverb/ilfosol.jpg (http://s239.photobucket.com/user/sepiareverb/media/ilfosol.jpg.html)

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff221/sepiareverb/compard.jpg (http://s239.photobucket.com/user/sepiareverb/media/compard.jpg.html)

And the #1 Best Seller!:

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff221/sepiareverb/d-76.jpg (http://s239.photobucket.com/user/sepiareverb/media/d-76.jpg.html)

and the list goes on...

Duolab123
23-Nov-2016, 21:34
This is a good thing. This will allow other companies to have enough volume to stay in business. Buy everything, film, paper, chemistry from an alternate vendor. It's going to cost more but if we can get it fine.
I remember the first time I visited the "Holy Land " B&H It was when they had the old trolley with baskets hanging exposed. I met Moses, he was at least 6'4" . He had a beautiful full long beard looked better than Charlton Heston. I remember all the photo paper, it was astounding. The used department upstairs was like candy land. No hard feelings, I will always love B&H, it was great while it lasted.
Best Regards Mike

Daniel.E
23-Nov-2016, 21:36
Well at least Adorama still ships although doesn't have as much as B&H.

B&H should use Fedex for chemistry.

Willie
24-Nov-2016, 07:13
In the wake of the ValuJet Flight 592 crash on May 11, 1996, the federal government (and more recently our shipping vendors) began cracking down on safety regulations for many different chemicals in airplane cargo holds. We don't ship ground so every order has to conform. We elected to observe the safety restrictions scrupulously and the result is a range of chemicals and similar items we cannot ship. Compressed air products like Beseler Duster fall under the same restrictions.

More recently there have been similar issues with lithium batteries.

I was raised on film and shot film professionally for 20 years. This situation is personally disappointing (although I know I can avail myself of store pick-up) but unfortunately unavoidable.

Why not offer Ground Shipping for the chemicals that are part of this group? Living in a State where there is not one Photo store to get Ilford supplies we rely on B&H. Now we will have to find another source and leave the one we have trusted for a long time.

Eric Biggerstaff
24-Nov-2016, 07:28
I have always split my purchases between B&H, Freestyle and Adorama and will continue to do so. While I think B&H could have easily found a solution to the shipping "issue" it is their business. I just placed a large order with Freestyle, sure shipping was more but that is OK and they have a large selection.

dentkimterry
24-Nov-2016, 07:49
Why not offer Ground Shipping for the chemicals that are part of this group? Living in a State where there is not one Photo store to get Ilford supplies we rely on B&H. Now we will have to find another source and leave the one we have trusted for a long time.

Exactly!

Louis Pacilla
24-Nov-2016, 07:55
The unfortunate reality is that the film side of photography, despite rumors of resurgence, continues to shrink as digital extends its domination. The number of customers buying 11x14 b&w sheet film is smaller than it's ever been. That 6-week delay was the length of time it took us to get the film from our vendor. It had nothing to do with any perceived lack of interest in your business or in the film business in general. I am sorry circumstances allowed you to develop (no pun intended) this misapprehension.

I would/will NOT BUY ANYTHING from Henry Posner & his Bumbling & H.

Posting here to simply tell LFF members they no longer matter to you guys is some how going to excuse your GIANT business and your lack of care about the very small amount of business we deliver Bumbling & H. We just DON"T COUNT to you is how I read what you typed here true or not.

So as things stand ALL my orders go elsewhere & I will never buy a thing from Bumbling & H. Not a filter' not a filter cap. NOTHING AND I MEAN NOTHING. Mark my words.

Don Dudenbostel
24-Nov-2016, 08:30
I'm afraid B&H like many other companies has forgotten why they're in business, the customers. It appears that it might be an air shipping regulation not ground if there actually is such a regulation. If they wanted the business they'd offer ground shipping for chemicals. Many of us purchase potassium cyanide and have it shipped with no problems. It unfortunately appears they simply don't care about the customer.

There are plenty of other sources fortunately that will appreciate our business. While B&H probably doesn't sell a lot of chemistry the additional items we might purchase like film and paper not to mention cameras and lenses add up to a substantial amount. I often threw in 10-20 rolls or a few boxes of sheet film and paper when ordering chemistry. I attempted a chemical order this week but B&H wouldn't ship so I ordered from Adorama and added two boxes of paper and 10 rolls of film. This all adds up over a year. My business now goes to other suppliers.

Jim Michael
24-Nov-2016, 08:36
If they ship nothing ground then ordering film would seem to be an issue due to the risk of high dosage x-rays of air cargo.


My order shipped yesterday via UPS Ground?

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff221/sepiareverb/Untitled%20copy.jpg (http://s239.photobucket.com/user/sepiareverb/media/Untitled%20copy.jpg.html)

dentkimterry
24-Nov-2016, 08:40
Someone ships the chemicals to B&H.......but they won't ship them to us? I may have ordered only $15-25 of chemicals at a time but I always made sure my order totalled $49 or more to get free shipping. It's a shame.

jp
24-Nov-2016, 09:42
They probably get their chemicals by the pallet from a truck and never by air.

I used to order $50 worth of chemicals along with a few hundred $ in film+paper because shipping was inexpensive, quick, reliably 2 days. Now I'll be shopping around. Probably not a bad thing for the other companies, but it certainly will not be as easy or quick for me.

faberryman
24-Nov-2016, 09:46
The issue is that B&H is not being honest with us about why, all of a sudden, they decided not to ship chemicals. If they are being dishonest about this, what else are they being dishonest about. I like one stop shopping, so B&H risks losing all my business, not that they care apparently.

faberryman
24-Nov-2016, 12:41
Here is a list of the photographic chemicals that Bostick & Sullivan (https://www.bostick-sullivan.com) will happily sell and ship to you. It is not prohibited from doing so and neither is B&H. B&H has just decided it is too much trouble for the profit margins derived and wants to blame it on governmental regulations.

Aluminum Potassium Sulfate
Ammonium Chloride
Ammonium Citrate Dibasic
Ammonium Dichromate
Ammonium Dichromate 5% Sol.
Ammonium Ferric Oxalate
Ammonium Ferric Oxalate Sol. No. 1
Ammonium Ferric Oxalate Sol. No. 2
Ammonium Thiocyanate
Ammonium Thiocyanate Sol 2%
Ammonium Thiosulfate 60% Solution
Cadmium Bromide
Calcium Carbonate
Cesium Chloride
Chromium Potassium Sulfate (Chrome Alum)
Citric Acid
Citric Acid - 40% Solution
Collodion
Copper Chloride
Copper Sulfate
Cyanotype Sol A - Classic Formula
Cyanotype Sol B - Classic Formula
Developer - Kallitype Black
Developer for Pt-Pd- Ammonium Citrate
Developer for Pt-Pd- Cold Bath
Developer for Pt-Pd- Potassium Oxalate
Developer for Pt-Pd- Sodium Citrate
EDTA Tetra Sodium (B+S Clearing Agent)
Ethyl Ether
Ferric Ammonium Citrate
Ferric Nitrate
Ferric Oxalate - Dry Pack No. 1.
Ferric Oxalate - Dry Pack No. 2.
Ferric Oxalate Powder
Ferric Oxalate Sol. 20% - (Kallitype)
Ferric Oxalate Sol. No. 1 (for pt and pd)
Ferric Oxalate Sol. No. 2 (for pd or pt)
Ferrous Sulfate, FCC High Purity Grade
Ferrous Sulfate, Technical
Formaldehyde 37% Solution
Gallic Acid
Gelatin 250 bloom
Glacial Acetic Acid
Glycerin
Glyoxal 40% Sol. in water
Gum Arabic Powder
Gum Arabic Solution 14 Baume
Gum Sandarac
Hydroquinone
Lamp Black
Lavender Oil
Lead Citrate
Lithium Chloride
Lithium Ferric Oxalate
Magnesium Carbonate
Metol
Old Workhorse Collodion
Oxalic Acid
Phenidone
Phosphoric Acid
Polyvinyl Alcohol - 10% Solution
Potassium Bromide
Potassium Carbonate
Potassium Chlorate
Potassium Chloride
Potassium Cyanide
Potassium Dichromate
Potassium Dichromate - 10% Solution (For Gum)
Potassium Ferricyanide
Potassium Hydroxide
Potassium Iodide
Potassium Metabisulfite
Potassium Monobasic Phosphate
Potassium Nitrate
Potassium Oxalate Powder
Potassium Permanganate
Potassium Sodium Tartrate (Rochelle Salts)
Pumice Powder
Pyro PMK Developer A Solution
Pyro PMK Developer B Solution
Pyro Rollo Developer A Solution
Pyro Rollo Developer B Solution
Pyrocat HD Developer - 500 ml A&B
Pyrocatechol (Catechol, Pyrocatechin)
Pyrogallic Acid
Rapid Fixer
Selenium
Silane (Glass Coating Treatment)
Sodium Acetate
Sodium Bisulfite
Sodium Borate Decahydrate
Sodium Carbonate
Sodium Citrate
Sodium Diacetate
Sodium Dichromate
Sodium Ferric Oxalate
Sodium Formate
Sodium Hexametaphosphate
Sodium Hydroxide
Sodium Metaborate
Sodium Silicate
Sodium Sulfide
Sodium Sulfite
Sodium Thiocyanate
Sodium thiosulfate
Sodium Tungstate Dihydrate
Sodium Tungstate Solution 40%
Starch - Arrowroot Powder
Succinic Acid
Sulfamic Acid
Tannic Acid
Tartaric Acid
Thiodipropionic Acid
Thiourea Practical
Tween 20 10% sol
Tween 20 50% sol

So I'd rate B&H's statements here and elsewhere as four Pinocchios, which, unfortunately, has become the new normal for civil discourse in the United States.

Michael Kadillak
24-Nov-2016, 12:56
Unsubscribed from their email offerings and contacted them to stay off of their mailing list. Blistered them with the decision and let them know I placed a large order from Freestyle this morning. The only thing that matters is what they see in lower sales. In the business world myopic decision making can be as effective as a well orchestrated add campaign sans the investment. Walking by a construction worker in the 16th street mall in Denver I saw a sticked on his hard hard that said "Stupid Hurts". Hope B&H feels the pain where it counts.

bigdog
24-Nov-2016, 14:50
B&H Foto (sic) and Electronics is no longer primarily a photo supply company. One look at their print catalog makes it patently obvious. The catalog looks like an old Sears catalog in size and fine print, and the film and darkroom section is but a couple of pages in the hundreds of other stuff. Even photo gear is not the bulk of their product offerings. Darkroom is a miniscule part of their business, and I suspect they simply don’t wish to deal with it any longer.

I could be wrong, but I bet I’m not.

DKtucson
24-Nov-2016, 18:42
I bought 2 kilos of pyrocatechol from China at 1/2 price including shipping . That makes enough obsidian aqua to develop 16,000 rolls of film. Rodinal can be made with tylenol, sodium hydroxide (lye drain cleaner) and sodium sulfide from amazon. For fixer I use sodium thiosulfate also from Amazon but you can get that from fish pond suppliers too

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

henryp
25-Nov-2016, 10:25
The issue is that B&H is not being honest with us about why, all of a sudden, they decided not to ship chemicals.
There are two fallacies here. The first is we're not being honest, when in fact we are. The second is that this is an "all of a sudden" situation when it's been ongoing for at least a decade.


Darkroom is a miniscule part of their business, and I suspect they simply don’t wish to deal with it any longer.
I could be wrong, but I bet I’m not.
Sadly, darkroom is a shrinking part of the photo industry world-wide and we're swimming in the same evaporating sea as everyone else. There's simply less demand AND less product. We will continue to offer as much in this genre as we possibly can.
BTW, I'll take that bet.

DennisD
25-Nov-2016, 11:13
HenryP - Henry Posner of B&H:

Your credibility is questionable when you say you cannot ship chemistry due to carrier regulations when, indeed, other photo suppliers continue to ship. Your clarification would help.

You've also said B&H does not ship ground.
( post 37 previously - "We don't ship ground so every order has to conform." )

That's peculiar, because we've received many shipments from B&H by UPS ground delivery. Perhaps your statement Needs to be further qualified or explained ?

My own company also ships by UPS but we've not yet received notification (to my knowledge) that prohibits shipment of chemicals.

Your company's position has annoyed many people who were your good customers.
Considering this, would it not behoove B&H to find alternate shipment methods, and reconsider the position you've taken.

tgtaylor
25-Nov-2016, 11:21
But the decision to ship products like Kodak Dektol and Kodak Fixer but require in-store pick-up for Kodak Xtol appears to be nonsenscical. Xtol is probably the most popular and the safest film developer in the world.

If you check down your online list https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/For-Black-White-Film-Paper/ci/576/N/4288586387 you'll see what I mean.

Happy thanksgiving,

Thomas

henryp
25-Nov-2016, 11:26
HenryP of B&h:Your credibility is questionable when you say you cannot ship chemistry due to carrier regulations when, indeed, other photo suppliers continue to ship. Your clarification would help.

We know there are other retailers who have chosen to overlook these restrictions and have simply gambled they either won’t get caught or won’t suffer excessive penalties if they do get caught. For instance:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/09/amazon-fined-shipping-dangerous-goods-by-air-caa/
http://fortune.com/2016/06/22/amazon-fined-shipping-hazardous-products/
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-13/amazon-fined-by-u-s-faa-for-shipping-dangerous-cargo-on-planes -- this one opens, “Retailer violated hazmat regulations 24 other times since 2013.” It goes on to say, “U.S. aviation regulators are seeking a $350,000 fine…” I wager Amazon doesn’t think $350,000 is more than an inconsequential slap on the wrist.

I could go on, but hopefully you get the picture.
\BTW, I noticed a comment about lithium batteries. https://www.ups.com/content/us/en/about/news/service_updates/20161104_battery_update.html
Effective January 1, 2017, UPS will change its requirements for shipping lithium batteries.

Sal Santamaura
25-Nov-2016, 11:43
We know there are other retailers who have chosen to overlook these restrictions and have simply gambled they either won’t get caught or won’t suffer excessive penalties if they do get caught. For instance:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/09/amazon-fined-shipping-dangerous-goods-by-air-caa/
http://fortune.com/2016/06/22/amazon-fined-shipping-hazardous-products/
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-13/amazon-fined-by-u-s-faa-for-shipping-dangerous-cargo-on-planes -- this one opens, “Retailer violated hazmat regulations 24 other times since 2013.” It goes on to say, “U.S. aviation regulators are seeking a $350,000 fine…” I wager Amazon doesn’t think $350,000 is more than an inconsequential slap on the wrist.

I could go on, but hopefully you get the picture.
\BTW, I noticed a comment about lithium batteries. https://www.ups.com/content/us/en/about/news/service_updates/20161104_battery_update.html
Effective January 1, 2017, UPS will change its requirements for shipping lithium batteries.Henry, I've always been a huge supporter of B&H and you personally, both in private communications and public forums. However, I cannot let pass that you're ignoring the underlying question.

Air shipment is the problem. Ground shipment of photo chemicals is possible legally and under carrier rules. You would face an IT implementation task to do so, but this issue could be addressed in a straightforward manner by simply setting up your system to:


Permit ordering of photo chemicals only with other photo chemicals, i.e. not in conjunction with other products
Permit such photo chemical orders to be shipped only by ground transportation
If necessary, exempt such photo chemical orders from your "free shipping over $49" policy.

Please address what I've overlooked when postulating this solution. Thanks in advance for replying.

DennisD
25-Nov-2016, 11:58
.
Again, to Henry Posner of B&H


Henry, I've always been a huge supporter of B&H and you personally, both in private communications and public forums. However, I cannot let pass that you're ignoring the underlying question.

Air shipment is the problem. Ground shipment of photo chemicals is possible legally and under carrier rules. You would face an IT implementation task to do so, but this issue could be addressed in a straightforward manner by simply setting up your system to:


Permit ordering of photo chemicals only with other photo chemicals, i.e. not in conjunction with other products
Permit such photo chemical orders to be shipped only by ground transportation
If necessary, exempt such photo chemical orders from your "free shipping over $49" policy.

Please address what I've overlooked when postulating this solution. Thanks in advance for replying.

Yes, as Sal has commented, the point is Ground shipment

I'm afraid my earlier post did not clearly indicate I was referring to shipping chemistry only by GROUND. That is what others do.

Ground shipping of chemistry would not be a violation of regs.

Sal has made very worthwhile suggestions.

Thanks for commenting accordingly.

Willie
25-Nov-2016, 12:37
I bought 2 kilos of pyrocatechol from China at 1/2 price including shipping . That makes enough obsidian aqua to develop 16,000 rolls of film. Rodinal can be made with tylenol, sodium hydroxide (lye drain cleaner) and sodium sulfide from amazon. For fixer I use sodium thiosulfate also from Amazon but you can get that from fish pond suppliers too

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

Sure hope it was better than the Chinese Amidol from a few years ago.

faberryman
25-Nov-2016, 13:27
I could go on, but hopefully you get the picture.
\BTW, I noticed a comment about lithium batteries. https://www.ups.com/content/us/en/about/news/service_updates/20161104_battery_update.html
Effective January 1, 2017, UPS will change its requirements for shipping lithium batteries.

Does this mean that B&H will, effective, January 1, 2017, stop selling cameras, computers, and other items containing lithium batteries, and replacement lithium batteries themselves?

Bob Salomon
25-Nov-2016, 13:46
HenryP - Henry Posner of B&H:

Your credibility is questionable when you say you cannot ship chemistry due to carrier regulations when, indeed, other photo suppliers continue to ship. Your clarification would help.

You've also said B&H does not ship ground.
( post 37 previously - "We don't ship ground so every order has to conform." )

That's peculiar, because we've received many shipments from B&H by UPS ground delivery. Perhaps your statement Needs to be further qualified or explained ?

My own company also ships by UPS but we've not yet received notification (to my knowledge) that prohibits shipment of chemicals.

Your company's position has annoyed many people who were your good customers.
Considering this, would it not behoove B&H to find alternate shipment methods, and reconsider the position you've taken.

Dennis, how could B&H ship by air from Brooklyn to you in NYC?

Leigh
25-Nov-2016, 14:16
Does this mean that B&H will, effective, January 1, 2017, stop selling cameras, computers, and other items containing lithium batteries, and replacement lithium batteries themselves?
Had you bothered to read the linked UPS page you would have noticed that the policy applies to:

"cells and batteries shipped without equipment"

So yes, it does apply to "replacement lithium batteries" but not to equipment containing such.

- Leigh

faberryman
25-Nov-2016, 14:23
So apparently it makes a critical difference if a lithium battery catches on fire in an airplane hold if it is in a box by itself rather than in a box with a camera or computer. Brilliant. How did that work out with the Samsung Galaxy Note 7?

faberryman
25-Nov-2016, 14:32
There are two fallacies here. The first is we're not being honest, when in fact we are. The second is that this is an "all of a sudden" situation when it's been ongoing for at least a decade.

You are not being honest. You are not telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. No fallacy there.

You shipped darkroom chemicals for decades until the day before yesterday. So yes, it is "all of a sudden." No fallacy there.

Leigh
25-Nov-2016, 14:54
We don't ship ground so every order has to conform.
Sorry, Henry, but that's simply not true.

The only way it could be true is if you have a runway down the middle of your warehouse.

ALL shipments leave your warehouse by truck.
What happens after that is a function of your agreements with the carriers.

- Leigh

Jac@stafford.net
25-Nov-2016, 15:36
Dennis, how could B&H ship by air from Brooklyn to you in NYC?

I broke into laughter! Thanks for that, Bob.
.

jp
25-Nov-2016, 15:39
Had you bothered to read the linked UPS page you would have noticed that the policy applies to:

"cells and batteries shipped without equipment"

So yes, it does apply to "replacement lithium batteries" but not to equipment containing such.

- Leigh

But you buy some spare batteries for your DSLR or GoPro and and it begins to affect many photography businesses.

Don Dudenbostel
25-Nov-2016, 16:17
In the interest of public safety perhaps one of us should notify the NTSB and FAA that B&H is shipping Illegally lithium batteries by air. Obviously safety is B&H's main concern.

sepiareverb
25-Nov-2016, 16:55
This arrived from B&H today:

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff221/sepiareverb/IMG_3751.jpg (http://s239.photobucket.com/user/sepiareverb/media/IMG_3751.jpg.html)

DennisD
25-Nov-2016, 17:43
Dennis, how could B&H ship by air from Brooklyn to you in NYC?

Hi Bob,

That's just it - they don't ship by air from Brooklyn to NY (We're located in suburban NY.)
I think you're pulling my leg.

My statement was, "we've received many shipments from B&H by UPS ground delivery....."

However according to B&H, they don't ship by ground !

DKtucson
25-Nov-2016, 19:13
Sure hope it was better than the Chinese Amidol from a few years ago.


So far so good. shared some with friends and everyone's film is coming out

Duolab123
25-Nov-2016, 19:54
So apparently it makes a critical difference if a lithium battery catches on fire in an airplane hold if it is in a box by itself rather than in a box with a camera or computer. Brilliant. How did that work out with the Samsung Galaxy Note 7?

The Samsung 7 failed to contain the battery failure. The product is supposed to be able to contain a runaway battery. This is why USPS demands that the lithium battery be in the device.
With all the phones and toys and everything else bursting into flames I wouldn't want any of this kind of stuff on a plane.

The bottom line is there is no reason I can come up with that can explain why as of last night B&H was willing to ship indicator stop bath and 5 gallon bottles of rapid fix (part A) free! but not D-76 or XTOL .

They are exiting this business pure and simple within a year the items will be reduced to nil. Opportunity for others to step in but to paraphrase Mr. Posner this business doesn't amount to more than a drop in the ocean.

Best,Mike

Don Dudenbostel
26-Nov-2016, 08:52
I think its clear that B&H is only bottom line oriented and has no interest in supporting the people that built their business. It also clear they're phasing out analog. I think this is a way to sell existing inventory And then film and paper will be the next to go. This is just my opinion and only time will tell. Sadly B&H doesn't have the guts to tell the truth.

Considering the massive drop in sales of digital cameras in the past couple of years I believe this is why they've added guitars in hopes of saving the business. Looking at what's happening I wouldn't be surprised if they don't start selling refrigerators and washer drier sets. It really appears they're trying to become Best Buy. That's going to be tougher than the photo market given the competition from the big box stores.

Your thoughts.

Wayne
26-Nov-2016, 09:15
they already failed to ship the chemistry I was interested in, for years now. I have had to source my Rodinal and rapid fix elsewhere. What did they actually still ship, but don't anymore?

Ditto, as I said on the sister thread on APUG. They stopped shipping Ilfochrome chems years before they were discontinued. I didn't even know they still shipped other chems, as it makes perfectly no sense to sell one and not the other.

Sal Santamaura
26-Nov-2016, 09:59
Ditto, as I said on the sister thread on APUG. They stopped shipping Ilfochrome chems years before they were discontinued. I didn't even know they still shipped other chems, as it makes perfectly no sense to sell one and not the other.Actually, it made perfect sense. Unlike Freestyle, which is capable of and willing to ground ship those items classified as "ORM-D" using appropriate packaging/labeling different than other photo chemicals, B&H doesn't have the infrastructure to support that. Thus, there was a subset of such items B&H had categorized as "store pick up only" for years.

Recognizing this fact, my previous suggestion should be modified as follows (changes in bold italics):


...simply setting up your system to:


Permit ordering of photo chemicals (just those that were orderable/shippable from B&H last month, not the ones previously "store pick up only") only with other similar photo chemicals, i.e. not in conjunction with other products
Permit such photo chemical orders to be shipped only by ground transportation
If necessary, exempt such photo chemical orders from your "free shipping over $49" policy...


In this way, B&H need only update its on-line ordering system, with no new shipping department training, certification or packaging/labeling effort required. Customers could continue to order the photo chemistry they have been recently been able to purchase from B&H, with only a potential (but not certain) increase in shipping cost.

DennisD
26-Nov-2016, 10:24
Sal,

While your suggestions are well thought out and sound viable, it seems B&H really does not wAnt to further accommodate the photo chemical side if the business. As you are aware, it's a fraction of the overall scope of their sales/income.

Regarding infrastructure - they certainly have the capability and finances to make changes. The manner in which they have expanded and developed their business over the years is clear evidence of their strength.

The powers at b&h simply don't see benefit and financial return as far as this topic is concerned.

Sal Santamaura
26-Nov-2016, 10:45
Sal,

While your suggestions are well thought out and sound viable, it seems B&H really does not wAnt to further accommodate the photo chemical side if the business. As you are aware, it's a fraction of the overall scope of their sales/income.

Regarding infrastructure - they certainly have the capability and finances to make changes. The manner in which they have expanded and developed their business over the years is clear evidence of their strength.

The powers at b&h simply don't see benefit and financial return as far as this topic is concerned.First, while I'm sure B&H is bottom-line oriented (like all profit-making businesses, including Freestyle and other photo chemical retailers), it's not clear that the simple approach I suggested has been given serious consideration yet. It would require some IT changes, but no other infrastructure investment. The shipping room is where substantial expense would be incurred were B&H to once again ship all photo chemicals; no such costs are involved in reverting to the way things were recently.

Second, I doubt Henry Posner has yet either read or considered what I wrote. My first post was made just as they were closing for the Sabbath. He'd need to think about things and consult with multiple B&H departments/entities before commenting back. I'm happy to wait a few days before writing off our ability to keep ordering photo chemicals from B&H.

DennisD
26-Nov-2016, 11:37
I'm not arguing your suggestions which seem viable.
They are worthy of consideration and you will hopefully receive a reply from Posner in due course.

My opinion is just that - please don't let it cloud your hope that something positive might result from your suggestion.

Good luck !

Wayne
26-Nov-2016, 12:10
Actually, it made perfect sense. Unlike Freestyle, which is capable of and willing to ground ship those items classified as "ORM-D" using appropriate packaging/labeling different than other photo chemicals, B&H doesn't have the infrastructure to support that. .

And what infrastructure would that be?

Sal Santamaura
26-Nov-2016, 12:33
And what infrastructure would that be?Training and certification of shipping personnel in compliance with ORM-D regulations; ensuring that only such trained/certified personnel ship ORM-D items; having and using packaging/labeling supplies required to ship ORM-D items.

Sal Santamaura
26-Nov-2016, 12:41
...please don't let it cloud your hope that something positive might result from your suggestion...After 33 years commuting 100 round trip miles each day and reading every bumper sticker that came into view, my favorite was "I feel much better since I gave up hope." :)

In addition to being a B&H customer for 40 years and figuring it couldn't hurt to offer a potential solution, thereby continuing the relationship, I posted in an attempt to calm down some of the emotional negative reactions. In the worst case, we'll help Freestyle thrive. The sun will rise tomorrow. :)

Jac@stafford.net
26-Nov-2016, 13:06
Training and certification of shipping personnel in compliance with ORM-D regulations; ensuring that only such trained/certified personnel ship ORM-D items; having and using packaging/labeling supplies required to ship ORM-D items.

True, and it likely that the warehouse employees must read English to accomplish training.

cowanw
26-Nov-2016, 15:01
Why, can't training come in other languages?

Jac@stafford.net
26-Nov-2016, 16:34
Why, can't training come in other languages?

I don't know if they do or do not, Sir. We know that a lot of B&H warehouse employees are Hispanic. Any more information regarding training would be appreciated.

B.S.Kumar
26-Nov-2016, 17:46
I found this link: http://www.kodak.com/ek/US/en/Global_Sustainability/Health_Safety_and_Environment/HSE_Support_Center/Regulatory_Information_On_Shipping.htm

Entering catalog number 8275497 for D-76 into the Search box gives this result:

ADG English 8275497 DISC KODAK DEVELOPER D-76 Not regulated for transport
ADNR English 8275497 DISC KODAK DEVELOPER D-76 Not regulated for transport
ADR English 8275497 DISC KODAK DEVELOPER D-76 Not regulated for transport
CFR English 8275497 DISC KODAK DEVELOPER D-76 Not regulated for transport
IATA Cargo English 8275497 DISC KODAK DEVELOPER D-76 Not regulated for transport
IATA Passenger English 8275497 DISC KODAK DEVELOPER D-76 Not regulated for transport
IMDG English 8275497 DISC KODAK DEVELOPER D-76 Not regulated for transport
RID English 8275497 DISC KODAK DEVELOPER D-76 Not regulated for transport

Does DISC mean discontinued?I don't think D-76 is discontinued? Does "Not regulated for transport" mean there are no restrictions? Can someone who knows more about IATA, etc. comment?

I will be checking with JapanPost as well, and if they say it is not prohibited, will offer these chemicals at least in powder form.

Kumar

Oren Grad
26-Nov-2016, 18:15
Does DISC mean discontinued?

I'd guess it just means the catalog number has changed. The two Kodak catalog numbers that B&H currently shows for D-76 (5160296 for 1 gallon, 5160304 for 1 liter) are different from the number you used in your search.

B.S.Kumar
26-Nov-2016, 18:21
And plugging in those catalog numbers shows nothing under Status. All the links to the pdf documents come up with Resource Not Found errors. Perhaps one of you in the US could get in touch with Kodak?

Kumar

Oren Grad
26-Nov-2016, 18:53
For those who want to get into the weeds, this is the applicable US Federal government regulation:

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=a38e8d98e86be2ba1a4c718decb24371&mc=true&node=pt49.2.172&rgn=div5

And here is the relevant chapter of USPS Publication 52, governing shipment of such materials via the postal system in the US:

http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_toc.htm

With the usual IANAL disclaimer, I have seen no evidence that darkroom chemistry in its entirety has suddenly become ORM-D, regardless of the specific ingredients. If somebody claims that this change has occurred, they should be able to point to supporting documentation. What we have here is almost certainly a problem of opaque business decision-making and poor communication, not an actual change in Federal regulations.

Daniel.E
26-Nov-2016, 19:44
I don't know if they do or do not, Sir. We know that a lot of B&H warehouse employees are Hispanic. Any more information regarding training would be appreciated.

Nice one Sir, because Hispanics don't speak English :rolleyes:

cowanw
26-Nov-2016, 20:05
24% of New Yorkers are Hispanic. I believe Spanish speaking countries are able to cope with hazardous chemical in language other than English.

Renato Tonelli
27-Nov-2016, 07:41
Another example of a thread gone off the rails.

This is how I see it.

B&H is clearly unwilling to make the necessary shipping arrangements for chemistry, whether it's ORM-D or not (e.g. shipping a certain class (or dry vs. liquid) of chemistry in one box and ORM-D chemistry in another box)
It has nothing to do with any new regulations - there aren't any new regulations. Substances much more dangerous than photographic chemistry are being legally shipped in and out of NYC everyday - they just follow regulations.
It has nothing to do with the language of their employees (this one's a beauty).

The chemistry I attempted to order the other day for a total of $4800. was about 20% dry packet chemistry (D-76 etc.) and the rest liquid (Heico NH-5 etc). They certainly could have shipped the 48 packet D-76 in one box the same way Kodak shipped it to them.

A vendor like Freestyle will do so and will charge extra for the service (as one would expect).

When I order chemistry through Freestyle, they ship chemistry classified as ORM-D separately: each item is bagged in a zip-locked bag. They are placed in a a box with lots and lots of peanuts and the outside of the box is labeled with ORM-D stickers. They ship Fed-Ex Ground and it arrives just fine.

Obviously, I would have preferred to order from B&H because they are closer to me and therefore less expensive to ship for such a short distance. The same order has now gone to Freestyle; it will take a little longer to get it because of the distance and it will cost approx. $150. more.

Wayne
27-Nov-2016, 07:51
Training and certification of shipping personnel in compliance with ORM-D regulations; ensuring that only such trained/certified personnel ship ORM-D items; having and using packaging/labeling supplies required to ship ORM-D items.


That just doesn't sound very insurmountable for a company that actually wanted to sell those chems.

Did Ilfochrome suddenly become ORM-D at a certain point, or were those regs only established in Ilfochromes last years?

Bob Salomon
27-Nov-2016, 08:20
Another example of a thread gone off the rails.

This is how I see it.

B&H is clearly unwilling to make the necessary shipping arrangements for chemistry, whether it's ORM-D or not (e.g. shipping a certain class (or dry vs. liquid) of chemistry in one box and ORM-D chemistry in another box)
It has nothing to do with any new regulations - there aren't any new regulations. Substances much more dangerous than photographic chemistry are being legally shipped in and out of NYC everyday - they just follow regulations.
It has nothing to do with the language of their employees (this one's a beauty).

The chemistry I attempted to order the other day for a total of $4800. was about 20% dry packet chemistry (D-76 etc.) and the rest liquid (Heico NH-5 etc). They certainly could have shipped the 48 packet D-76 in one box the same way Kodak shipped it to them.

A vendor like Freestyle will do so and will charge extra for the service (as one would expect).

When I order chemistry through Freestyle, they ship chemistry classified as ORM-D separately: each item is bagged in a zip-locked bag. They are placed in a a box with lots and lots of peanuts and the outside of the box is labeled with ORM-D stickers. They ship Fed-Ex Ground and it arrives just fine.

Obviously, I would have preferred to order from B&H because they are closer to me and therefore less expensive to ship for such a short distance. The same order has now gone to Freestyle; it will take a little longer to get it because of the distance and it will cost approx. $150. more.

Re NATO, couldn't you or a student just have taken a bus, subway or cab to the store and picked it up?

Renato Tonelli
27-Nov-2016, 09:14
Bob - yes, we could have - including arranging a schedule that involves a few people with other things to do, spending about an hour or so in NYC gridlock traffic; time at the store, more time unloading and reloading it to get it into the building. As the saying goes: 'there goes the day!'



Re NATO, couldn't you or a student just have taken a bus, subway or cab to the store and picked it up?

Willie
27-Nov-2016, 09:26
Re NATO, couldn't you or a student just have taken a bus, subway or cab to the store and picked it up?

One day in New York City is like a year in prison. All the oppressive buildings and so darned many people. The traffic, the noise, the dirty air - and then you have New Yawkers!

Bob Salomon
27-Nov-2016, 10:10
One day in New York City is like a year in prison. All the oppressive buildings and so darned many people. The traffic, the noise, the dirty air - and then you have New Yawkers!

But he is in NYC.

Bob Salomon
27-Nov-2016, 10:12
Bob - yes, we could have - including arranging a schedule that involves a few people with other things to do, spending about an hour or so in NYC gridlock traffic; time at the store, more time unloading and reloading it to get it into the building. As the saying goes: 'there goes the day!'

Renato, aren't there also messenger services that could just go there, pick whatever it is up and just drive it uptown to the school?

Bob Salomon
27-Nov-2016, 10:15
One day in New York City is like a year in prison. All the oppressive buildings and so darned many people. The traffic, the noise, the dirty air - and then you have New Yawkers!

Haven't spent much time there, have you? How about in Boston, Philadelphia, DC, Chicago, St Louis, Atlanta, Nashville, LA, Seattle, San Francisco, Dallas, Houston, SAN Diego, Portland, SAN Antonio, Miami?

Wayne
27-Nov-2016, 10:19
Haven't spent much time there, have you? How about in Boston, Philadelphia, DC, Chicago, St Louis, Atlanta, Nashville, LA, Seattle, San Francisco, Dallas, Houston, SAN Diego, Portland, SAN Antonio, Miami?

Many of the above. Feels as sweet as jailbreak to get out again.

Bob Salomon
27-Nov-2016, 10:52
Many of the above. Feels as sweet as jailbreak to get out again.

Out of curiosity, what does jail break really feel like? I always imagined that if you did you would be constantly looking over your shoulder. And supporting yourself after one couldn't be easy either!

faberryman
27-Nov-2016, 10:55
https://youtu.be/jI4Ojgz5Qo4

Fred L
27-Nov-2016, 11:02
So apparently I can now order TF-5 and Permawash once again for delivery to Canada. Did they wither under the online storm of their making ?

Wayne
27-Nov-2016, 11:07
Out of curiosity, what does jail break really feel like? I always imagined that if you did you would be constantly looking over your shoulder. And supporting yourself after one couldn't be easy either!

You're only looking over your shoulder till you hit the border. Not that I have any personal experience with it. When I leave the big city I never look back...

tgtaylor
27-Nov-2016, 11:15
it looks like my post above made sense to Henry as they are now shipping Xtol! https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/124564-REG/Kodak_8751752_Xtol_Developer_Powder_for.html

This is personally good news to me as I was getting Xtol locally from K&S Photography in Palo Alto. However they went out of business and when I found out about it a day after they notified their employees someone had already purchased all of the remaining Xtol in stock - about 10 or 20 packages.

Thomas

Bob Salomon
27-Nov-2016, 11:21
You're only looking over your shoulder till you hit the border. Not that I have any personal experience with it. When I leave the big city I never look back...

Crossing the border of the state won't make you safe from the Marshall Service! Or from the bounty hunters. You will always look over your shoulder.

sepiareverb
27-Nov-2016, 11:38
Fingers crossed that they've finally realized they've been shipping by Ground all along.

Wayne
27-Nov-2016, 12:12
Crossing the border of the state won't make you safe from the Marshall Service! Or from the bounty hunters. You will always look over your shoulder.

Wrong border Bob.

Bob Salomon
27-Nov-2016, 12:35
Wrong border Bob.

Those bounty hunters will go anywhere, if it is profitable enough. And, if you broke out of a federal prison, so will the FBI and the Marshalls. If they want you back. You will always look over your shoulder.

Wayne
27-Nov-2016, 16:23
Those bounty hunters will go anywhere, if it is profitable enough. And, if you broke out of a federal prison, so will the FBI and the Marshalls. If they want you back. You will always look over your shoulder.

I'll take that under consideration but I'm not in prison Bob. :D I did spend a night in jail when I was 14, but I think the police only did that to keep my dad from killing me for wrecking his car. :rolleyes:

Jac@stafford.net
27-Nov-2016, 16:40
I doubt than I am alone to consider alternative sources. My favorites are Photographer's Formulary, then Freestyle.

B&H's merchandise catalog shows the future of consumer stuff which serves the least of our particular interests. That's not negative criticism but only the fact.

It is not bad to wear the badge of analog wet photography. Drop B&H, do not resent, instead move on and be happy!
.

Larry the Sailor
27-Nov-2016, 16:55
It is not bad to wear the badge of analog wet photography. Drop B&H, do not resent, instead move on and be happy!

Yup.
All the guess work and supposition don't mean much in the face of what HenryP posted here and on APUG as to the why of the sudden change.
His answer was absolute BS and an insult to the intelligence of those here.
I wish them continued success but my money won't be involved.

Jac@stafford.net
27-Nov-2016, 17:05
Yup.
All the guess work and supposition don't mean much in the face of what HenryP posted here and on APUG as to the why of the sudden change.
Indeed!

Considering what a tiny part of B&H's business is our field, Henry might be be better off stating, "I'm sorry, but wet photography is so diminished that we cannot maintain the profit margin we require. Best of luck, and thank you for your former patronage."

B&H profits at such a tiny margin that I don't blame them one bit.
.

Randy Moe
27-Nov-2016, 17:20
I have bought plenty of digital from B$H over the last 20 years.

Very sure I spent more on digital than analog.

Yes, I just bought a new film camera, brand new, not used. Not cheap. I also have a new 4x5 from across the pond coming soon.

I will vote with my money on both analog/wet and digital purchases.

C'Est la Vie

Larry the Sailor
27-Nov-2016, 20:01
Indeed!

Considering what a tiny part of B&H's business is our field, Henry might be be better off stating, "I'm sorry, but wet photography is so diminished that we cannot maintain the profit margin we require. Best of luck, and thank you for your former patronage."

B&H profits at such a tiny margin that I don't blame them one bit.
.


Hell, if he'd come out with that statement I'd have been OK with it and they would still get my business. The BS is what turned me off.

Roger Cole
28-Nov-2016, 06:14
And the plot thickens even further: I just called the hazardous materials department at UPS, and they said they have not changed their policies regarding photographic chemicals. Those changes come down from the government, and the woman on the line said that the government issues changes each quarter so a change in the last week isn't even possible.


B&H must have told it's people to blame UPS, but obviously it was an internal decision to shut this down.

They've been doing this for years, blaming shipping regulations for all the other stuff they wouldn't ship but everyone else would. I would be much less bothered if they just said it was too much hassle for a tiny part of a huge operation like theirs. Just be truthful. I mainly order from Freestyle because no one else really supports film and darkroom with the range of products they do, even though it means both longer times and higher shipping costs for me. I have bought film and paper from B&H at times due to substantial savings though.

Roger Cole
28-Nov-2016, 06:16
In the wake of the ValuJet Flight 592 crash on May 11, 1996, the federal government (and more recently our shipping vendors) began cracking down on safety regulations for many different chemicals in airplane cargo holds. We don't ship ground so every order has to conform. We elected to observe the safety restrictions scrupulously and the result is a range of chemicals and similar items we cannot ship. Compressed air products like Beseler Duster fall under the same restrictions.

More recently there have been similar issues with lithium batteries.

I was raised on film and shot film professionally for 20 years. This situation is personally disappointing (although I know I can avail myself of store pick-up) but unfortunately unavoidable.

"We don't ship ground" - well that adds some explanation that sounds more plausible.

Roger Cole
28-Nov-2016, 06:18
Freestyle charges more per product and charges more for shipping. This is a real downer. I've heard some good things about Central Camera in Chicago. They're an order-by-phone type dealer. I have yet to check their prices, but they ship FedEx Ground.

But they have a vast selection, they ship anything, and they've always been prompt, courteous, and honest with me and never tried to blow smoke up my ass or pee on my shoes and claim it's just raining.

Some things cost more because they're WORTH IT. Freestyle for me.

Roger Cole
28-Nov-2016, 06:39
Finished thread and agree - if they are back to shipping the stuff they always did then all is back as it was. I will buy film and paper from them if they have something I can't get elsewhere or I need it quickly or I am buying ONLY film and/or paper. Chemicals I will continue to get mainly from Freestyle, even the stuff BH would ship, because I'm almost always getting something in both categories and for stocking film and paper I'll likely get it from them too while I'm at it if they have it and I'm not in a hurry for it.

IOW same as I've done for years.

Jim Michael
28-Nov-2016, 08:34
"We don't ship ground" - well that adds some explanation that sounds more plausible.

That only seems plausible if it means "we can't guarantee the stuff we ship ground won't wind up in a flying machine at some point." Still, if that's true then I think any film you order is at risk from the high powered x-ray they use for air cargo.

Drew Wiley
28-Nov-2016, 09:56
The squeakly wheel gets the oil. A few years ago ago they got a lot of complaints about their diminished supplies of film and darkroom paper, especially by walk-in customers, and readdressed it. People like me complained about their diminishing selection of filters, and that has dramatically improved too, even if they don't need to overall quantities they once did. Chemicals are in a different category because they potentially require special handling at extra expense, overhead, and training, which obviously just doesn't dovetail with the way they want to promptly do business. Even special paperwork must be on hand and kept filed. I can't fault them for that. The tiniest accident happens with chemicals and all hell breaks loose. A sack of sugar spills on the freeway and it's shut down for hours until the analysis is done. Happened last week in this neighborhood with some kind of benign powder. Regulations prevent that from happening on cargo planes. They've already go shipments of lithium batteries to help them burn and crash.

henryp
28-Nov-2016, 13:53
Considering what a tiny part of B&H's business is our field, Henry might be be better off stating, "I'm sorry, but wet photography is so diminished that we cannot maintain the profit margin we require. Best of luck, and thank you for your former patronage."
I'd have said that if there was as much as an iota of truth there. But there isn't, which is why I didn't.

henryp
28-Nov-2016, 13:56
They've already go shipments of lithium batteries to help them burn and crash.
Come January, that may change too.
Effective January 1, 2017, UPS will change its requirements for shipping lithium batteries by air.
https://www.ups.com/content/us/en/about/news/service_updates/20161104_battery_update.html

faberryman
28-Nov-2016, 14:02
Come January, that may change too.
Effective January 1, 2017, UPS will change its requirements for shipping lithium batteries by air.
https://www.ups.com/content/us/en/about/news/service_updates/20161104_battery_update.html

Beginning January 1, 2017, are you going to ship lithium batteries without equipment by air under the new UPS regulation, ship them by ground, or not ship them at all?

Drew Wiley
28-Nov-2016, 16:39
Given the number of lithium batteries out there that are either counterfeit or generic substandard, I'm surprised anyone is willing to handle anything related to them. Granted, my wife drives a Prius, and right at this moment I have a whole warehouse space behind me dedicated to cordless power tools, with lots and lots of lithium batteries. But I know who made them and where they came from. Otherwise, I won't even accept batteries for hazmat disposal. Houses burn down, people get their faces burned off. Counterfeit brand name batteries get mixed in with bulk genuine ones right at the Port. So I also refuse to sell bulk batteries too, just real-deal tamper-proof packaged ones. The flea market and equivalent web peddlers don't give a damn if your shop burns down or not. But prior to building dedicated in-house computer programs, we had to keep two entire cargo containers on hand just to store hazmat records of past sales, plus a full time librarian dealing with current sales. Sales per se, a whole other department. That included a lot of military and gov't business. But the whole point of my mini-diatribe at the moment is that if you're big enough, you get legally monitored and audited on a regular basis, and can't get away with the nonsense that fly-by-night operators do. At a certain point, the paperwork and headaches can get overwhelming and simply not worth it anymore.

faberryman
28-Nov-2016, 16:44
Well, apparently the headaches haven't gotten big enough, and the profit margins small enough, to deter B&H from selling and shipping them.

Drew Wiley
28-Nov-2016, 16:53
Put things in perspective and stop blaming B&H. It's like griping that Safeway doesn't carry as many flavors of ice cream as Baskin Robbins. There are plenty of sources of darkroom chemistry out there. But ground shipping and paying a surcharge for corrosive or hazmat labeling is just a fact of life, and mandated by the
parcel carriers themselves. You might also need to hook up with a commercial address or regional carrier office to pick certain up things that can't be residence
delivered. Heck, some chemicals can only be shipped by rail, from railhead to railhead. Others require special paperwork on file so that they're not being used to blend drugs. All kinds of weird things go on, Breaking Bad. In the meantime, I'll keep giving business to B&H for what they do offer.

faberryman
28-Nov-2016, 16:59
Last time I checked Safeway wasn't claiming that governmental regulations prevented them from carrying (and shipping) all the flavors of Baskin & Robbins ice cream.

Leszek Vogt
28-Nov-2016, 17:07
Ha, Safeway simply doesn't have space for Buds and other delectables. :o Hmmm, I never accused B&R to be great.

Les

sepiareverb
28-Nov-2016, 17:39
And yet the MSDS sheets list many of these chemicals as perfectly safe to ship by Ground or air. Were not going to get B&H to change, they have either decided not to give a sh1t about chemical photography or decided that the future will make it too difficult. But they seem willing to overlook that same level of difficulty when it comes to lithium batteries. Their prerogative. Too bad they have been such a major player for so long in this business, because they are of the size that their dropping of 75% of their volume is enough to make a difference for the manufacturers. But we can always start compounding our own as we have been told. Ilford and Kodak and FOMA will get over it.

Willie
28-Nov-2016, 19:20
This could be a misunderstanding or a particular UPS station causing the problem
Had a friend shipping a digital camera to me and he wanted to use UPS. Took it to the UPS Store and was told almost $60 - due to the Lithium battery with the camera.
A different UPS store was half that and did not worry about the battery.
He finally sent it US Postal Priority for just under $13.

Get different stations and different people on your account and you find very different practices. Could it be Henry has one of the guys who is more strict with the policy?

henryp
29-Nov-2016, 14:51
Beginning January 1, 2017, are you going to ship lithium batteries without equipment by air under the new UPS regulation, ship them by ground, or not ship them at all?

We're trying to figure out a way to open product boxes and install the batteries, which gives us more leeway. It's going to be imperfect at best and time consuming too I wager. As we get a clearer idea of what to do and how, we will say so.

henryp
29-Nov-2016, 14:53
Houses burn down, people get their faces burned off.

From last week:
Man Burned When E-Cig Explodes in Pants at New York's Grand Central Terminal (http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Man-burns-hand-leg-ecigarette-explodes-pants-NYC-grand-central-station--402686205.html)

henryp
29-Nov-2016, 14:54
Heck, some chemicals can only be shipped by rail, from railhead to railhead. Others require special paperwork on file so that they're not being used to blend drugs. All kinds of weird things go on, Breaking Bad. In the meantime, I'll keep giving business to B&H for what they do offer.
Thank you.

henryp
29-Nov-2016, 14:59
But they seem willing to overlook that same level of difficulty when it comes to lithium batteries.
Overlook? We don't overlook anything. We try to conform to ALL the myriad rules and regulations and decrees and whatever (some of which change frequently and without advance notice) from various government agencies, shippers and so on. That goes for chemicals, batteries, and on and on. We're also trying to get digicams to APO addresses so we can help our men and women in uniform -- not a simple task by any stretch. We don't overlook anything.

faberryman
29-Nov-2016, 15:33
Please advise us what governmental regulation became effective on November 22, 2016 which now prevents you from shipping all the photographic chemicals you routinely shipped for decades before November 22, 2016.

Duolab123
29-Nov-2016, 17:36
From last week:
Man Burned When E-Cig Explodes in Pants at New York's Grand Central Terminal (http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Man-burns-hand-leg-ecigarette-explodes-pants-NYC-grand-central-station--402686205.html)

Did you see the Lay's Potato Chip Van burst into flames? Thin slices of pure carbohydrates saturated in soybean oil packed loosely in an Oxygen rich atmosphere. Yikes! I would just as soon have Dektol than potato chips and a drink cart laden with alcohol on a plane ;)
Best Mike

sepiareverb
29-Nov-2016, 18:37
Overlook? We don't overlook anything. We try to conform to ALL the myriad rules and regulations and decrees and whatever (some of which change frequently and without advance notice) from various government agencies, shippers and so on. That goes for chemicals, batteries, and on and on. We're also trying to get digicams to APO addresses so we can help our men and women in uniform -- not a simple task by any stretch. We don't overlook anything.

Except that you actually do ship by Ground.


Please advise us what governmental regulation became effective on November 22, 2016 which now prevents you from shipping all the photographic chemicals you routinely shipped for decades before November 22, 2016.

He will ignore this as well. If it can't add up it is ignored.

Michael Kadillak
29-Nov-2016, 20:07
My large Freestyle chemistry order will arrive here on Thursday. We are what are commonly called "customers" and we purchase good and services from companies that understand our needs and fill them without making excuses. Screw B&H. If they decide that they would rather not solve this problem when others can and will, I am no longer their customer. It is no more complicated than that.

faberryman
30-Nov-2016, 13:44
I learned from a poster at APUG that B&H is now shipping Ilford Hypam, and have confirmed that to be the case on B&H's website. Since, in the immortal words of B&H's management spokesperson henryp: "We don't overlook anything" (emphasis his), the governmental regulations must have changed again since 11/22/16, and they are now once again able to ship Ilford Hypam. I urge everyone who needs fixer to order it quickly before the governmental regulations change again.

Cameron Cornell
30-Nov-2016, 14:40
OK, I just checked, and suddenly it is possible to buy Ilfosol liquid developer again with the following two shipping options: "Super Saver - up to 7 business days" or "Ground" (!!)

Drew Wiley
30-Nov-2016, 14:42
You seem to be unaccustomed to the nature of the complication. The rules can hypothetically change anytime, and they don't necessarily inform you proactively. It's something you have to be attuned to within a specific profession or line of trade, with your ear constantly to the ground. Lots of things get legally enacted long before an enforcement stage, so can be anticipated. Other things have had to be rapidly implemented, especially post 9/11. Paperwork can move from nonexistent to a headache. And given the overall impending chaos at the Fed level, nobody really knows what to expect next, except that fracking wastewater will soon be coming out of your tap.

faberryman
30-Nov-2016, 14:43
But B&H doesn't ship ground. B&H management spokesperson Henryp has said so repeatedly.

faberryman
30-Nov-2016, 14:45
The rules can hypothetically change anytime...
That seems to be what is happening here. The governmental regulations are hypothetically changing.

Cameron Cornell
30-Nov-2016, 14:46
Five Liter Liquid Ilford Multigrade Developer is available to ship (via Ground or 3 day shipping), but the 500 ml of the same developer is Store Pick-Up Only. No apparent rhyme nor reason.

Cameron Cornell
30-Nov-2016, 14:49
The woman with whom I spoke at the UPS Hazardous Materials Unit said that any changes to their regulations come from the US government, and that they are issued quarterly. She said that a change mid-quarter is not a possibility.

Drew Wiley
30-Nov-2016, 14:56
Oh my my. Just buy a box of Kleenex while you still can. No Greek tragedy was ever so inspired with such utter pathos. Sophocles and "The Death of Dektol".

faberryman
30-Nov-2016, 14:58
The woman with whom I spoke at the UPS Hazardous Materials Unit said that any changes to their regulations come from the US government, and that they are issued quarterly. She said that a change mid-quarter is not a possibility.

Really? No kidding? Then how do you explain that the governmental regulations changed on 11/22/16, preventing B&H from shipping certain photographic chemicals, and now seem to be changing daily, if not hourly, because B&H is slowing adding more photographic chemicals back to those which it is permitted to ship?

faberryman
30-Nov-2016, 15:04
Five Liter Liquid Ilford Multigrade Developer is available to ship (via Ground or 3 day shipping), but the 500 ml of the same developer is Store Pick-Up Only. No apparent rhyme nor reason.

Well, since at B&H "We don't overlook anything", it must be because the governmental regulations prohibit the shipping of small quantities of photographic chemicals, but allow the shipping of large quantities of the same photographic chemicals. They just don't want little fires on planes, but apparently big fires on planes are okay.

faberryman
30-Nov-2016, 15:39
I just checked and Safeway has added four new flavors of Baskin & Robbins ice cream to its freezer section.

Drew Wiley
30-Nov-2016, 16:19
I prefer going to the Asian supermarket for the real tropical fruit flavor ice cream, as well as the fact that the same brand, such as Dreyers, uses half as much sugar as the equivalent product intended for the American Market. Ethnic and fresh produce markets always stock jugs of true distilled water, unlike Safeway. If I run out of sodium sulfite, I can always wring it out of a salad at Denneys or MacDonalds. I'm scared to ask what else they put in their dressings, but if anyone
actually knew, I'm sure it would be something legitimately prohibited from being shipped!

faberryman
30-Nov-2016, 17:38
Dektol is now shipping according to B&H's website.

What I find so amazing is that the new Administration has yet to take office, the new Secretary of Transportation has been announced but not confirmed by the Senate, and yet DOT is issuing new regulations seemingly hourly to overturn the regulations that, effective 11/22/16, prevented B&H from shipping the photographic chemicals that it had theretofore been shipping for decades. It is as if B&H management spokesperson Henryp flew down to Washington, has been camping out at the Governmental Printing Office, and is phoning back to B&H headquarters as these new regulations roll of the press, so B&H can update its website. Way to go Henryp.

sepiareverb
30-Nov-2016, 18:00
They've not been shipping chemicals since 1996. It was just a backlog or something that we've been receiving by Ground over these last twenty years. I am always amazed by my prescience when a package is dropped off. "Damn you're good. You knew you'd be almost out of Ilfosol-3 this week way back in 96." I am clearly a genius.

Duolab123
30-Nov-2016, 18:30
OK I get it, but I think it's time for a cease fire. We all have been getting free shipping and in most cases have avoided sales taxes 7% in my case.
What happened? We created a monopoly of sorts. Some bean counter at B&H, quite wisely, decides we haven't got time to mess with this as it's our big sales season.
Maybe they hear us complaining and change their minds, maybe someone realizes Dektol isn't going to bring down an Airbus.
We are the ones responsible for this. Brick and mortar stores that close their doors are the result of changes in how we collectively spend our money.
I know that all this indignation will evaporate when it's 15% cheaper and faster and very reliable to do business with B&H.
These folks deserve a break, I don't have any idea what actually happened but I guarantee it wasn't some grand scheme. Companies make mistakes just like anyone else.
Anyway I've always been treated well by B&H, and Freestyle and others. Time to let this go.
Best Regards Mike

Richard Rau
30-Nov-2016, 21:35
Siince 9/11 until recently, I have had no problem having almost anything shipped to the midwest by B&H. Only a week ago I recieved a shipment of 5 Gal. of Rapid Fix by UPS from them. So I can only conclude that it probably is Federal restrictions. However, can anyone explain to me, in it's bulk form, how can a 3kg. box of Dektol be considered hazardous material? (Sodium Hydroxide I could understand.) To play devil's advocate, surely this material has to be "shipped" into the heart of NY City for them to sell it out of their store! (I would have to think this material is shipped both by ground and by air to B&H' since I understand that much of Kodak's chemistry manufacturing is now outsourced overseas.) Ummm, .... doesn't Fed law work in both directions? So .... am I missing something here?

Still, there are plenty of other vendors out there, so no worry. Still regrettable and unfortunate. Fortunately, Adorama shipped Dektol to me today. And thank goodness they aren't located in NY City!

Greg Y
30-Nov-2016, 23:06
Fman, Thanks for mentioning the Hypam. Order confirmed 2, 5 litre jugs of fixer & 250- sheets of Ilford Classic 11x14.... free shipping to Canada is not inconsequential.

Leigh
30-Nov-2016, 23:20
It's starting to look like they set a blanket policy a week ago, and now they're going through and reviewing each individual product and changing the status for those that can be shipped safely.

That seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable approach, and explains he sequence of changes.
It probably takes a significant amount of time to review each item given the legal implications.

Just speculation on my part.

- Leigh

faberryman
1-Dec-2016, 03:55
That is a perfectly reasonable explanation except for one fact - B&H has adamantly denied it.

sepiareverb
1-Dec-2016, 05:28
...
We are the ones responsible for this. Brick and mortar stores that close their doors are the result of changes in how we collectively spend our money...

I for one purchased the bulk of my chemistry locally while I could. Specialized things that the local store couldn't get I purchased from another shop a bit farther away. Unusual items came from B&H. When the camera store 45 minutes from me closed doors (after Walmart drove them out of business) I drove an hour and twenty minutes to the big shop about once a month. They diversified, started selling computers and little by little, as the hobbyist market for photographic materials dried up, the pros went to digital, the photo-finishing business evaporated and they couldn't compete with the big box stores they went out of business. They sold chemistry and paper and film to us die-hards till the end. All six or seven of us. Our first iMac came from them. I purchased paper from B&H because the most local option only carried Kodak RC, and could only order by the case, the pro shop didn't have much variety after a few years. I actually ordered Agfa paper and their version of Polytoner from the local rep back when there still was such a thing. It was delivered to the local mini lab, then to a larger minilab/camera store about 1:45 away after the local one switched to Fuji (they too are long out of business). I purchased Sprint chemistry through a shop over in NH for years, they are now a shadow of their former selves, no longer develop film, sell cameras or chemistry and mostly do banner printing. They might still have film, I don't know, a trip there to be asked "we used to sell cameras?" doesn't yield much, the last film I bought there was insanely over-priced. B&H is the last option on the East Coast for getting anything on short notice, barely slower than driving to Boston or NY or Montreal, each of which is a whole days work. (Not to mention the apparent illegality of transporting the stuff on a regular drivers license...) I've not tried carrying chemistry over the border myself, I can only imagine the cell I'd spend my time in trying to bring such suspicious powders and heavy liquids into my country.

The lack of clients for darkroom services makes the slower timeframe from Freestyle less problematic than it would have been ten years ago, as most of my paid work comes from a scanner and Photoshop these days. My Freestyle order will arrive today, enough developer to tide me over till summer. I will have to order from Sprint soon as I'm about to open my last cube of fixer.

Having had far too many bad experiences with Adorama selling me things they don't have in stock and playing the back order game for weeks on end and Unique Photo not carrying many of my usual materials it is down to Freestyle or Fotoimpex for me.

tonyowen
1-Dec-2016, 07:41
Being out of North America, this thread does not really have any direct effect on me.
HOWEVER, I've checked the B&H website and I can get all of the chemicals, batteries, etc mentioned in the preceding postings delivered to the UK.
Given that ground would mean crossing the Bering Straits in winter and using the (English) channel tunnel I guess that shipping would be by air or sea; and subsequently by ground. Of course the quoted shipping cost does not make such purchases viable.

Attempting to follow the various postings I'm not certain if the complaints are valid when viewed in the real and ever changing business world, where a positive bottom line is the primary and necessary objective. The "customer is always right" is admirable when it can be combined with profitable trading; but to quote Henry Ford the customer can have anything he wants provided it is black!!!!!!
regards
Tony

HMG
1-Dec-2016, 07:44
It's starting to look like they set a blanket policy a week ago, and now they're going through and reviewing each individual product and changing the status for those that can be shipped safely.

That seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable approach, and explains he sequence of changes.
It probably takes a significant amount of time to review each item given the legal implications.

Just speculation on my part.

- Leigh

Very possible. Or perhaps just a screw-up in implementing changes due to heightened enforcement of some chemicals. And B&H has done a poor job of responding and clarifying their policy.

But we do seem to have a couple of members here who seem to have made "stirring the pot" their life's work.

faberryman
1-Dec-2016, 07:59
And if the pot had not be stirred, do you think we would have seen the changes in B&H's shipping policy with respect to many of the photographic chemicals as we have seen on their website over the past few days? B&H's attitude has appeared to change from "it's out of our hands" to "we can do something about this". It has always be about B&H disrespecting members of the forum and its customers in general with their arrogance ("We don't overlook anything") and, as one member put it, "malarky", and even dissing their competitors, claiming they were skirting the law.

Michael Kadillak
1-Dec-2016, 09:27
Just ordered a five gallon container of Kodak Rapid fixer from B&H and got free shipping. Go figure.....

Pleasantly surprised. If I can get what I want and they are willing to provide a solution I am good to go.

HMG
1-Dec-2016, 09:27
And if the pot had not be stirred, do you think we would have seen the changes in B&H's shipping policy with respect to many of the photographic chemicals as we have seen on their website over the past few days? B&H's attitude has appeared to change from "it's out of our hands" to "we can do something about this". It has always be about B&H disrespecting members of the forum and its customers in general with their arrogance ("We don't overlook anything") and, as one member put it, "malarky", and even dissing their competitors, claiming they were skirting the law.


Do I think it's been helpful to raise the issue here? Yes, although I think B&Hs overreaction would have been corrected in the normal course of business. Let's not give ourselves too much credit here.

Do I think the personal attacks on henryp and the snide comments (#168 is one example) have been helpful? No, and I think it's damaged the reputation of this forum (and apug) as a whole.

Sal Santamaura
1-Dec-2016, 10:51
...Do I think the personal attacks on henryp and the snide comments...have been helpful? No, and I think it's damaged the reputation of this forum (and apug) as a whole.I disagree. In my opinion, the personal attacks and snide comments have damaged the reputations of those attackers/commenters only, not the forums overall.

Drew Wiley
1-Dec-2016, 11:11
Gosh. The office manager here prefers to buy all our computer monitors and gosh knows how much related stuff from clear across the country at B&H, despite the
plethora of local sources. So they must be doing something right. I just have to make sure the receiving department reads the labels correctly, so my personal
shipments don't get confused with theirs.

Greg Y
1-Dec-2016, 13:23
From a customer standpoint, I've had good service from B&H. Freestyle, has not been a paragon of customer service. First they jacked their shipping costs to Canada up. I was going to Arizona, so I made an online order, & wanted it shipped there. They had lost track of me as a customer, so they would only take a $250 order...
We'll see if this BH order arrives....

Mrportr8
1-Dec-2016, 14:30
It is practically impossible these days to rely on just one supplier. So I plan to buy what I need from whoever has it in stock and can/will ship it. Local suppliers have gone the way of the Do-Do bird and this is our new reality. If B&H chooses for whatever reason not to ship chemistry then too bad, so sad, find another vendor. Attacking their decision will not change their mind. Money speaks louder than words.

brad martin
1-Dec-2016, 17:53
B&H is selling outdoor gear. Need a tent?

They probably hired some big 4, 2, or 3 accounting/consulting firm to streamline/maximize their profit centers and shipping chemistry did not make the cut.

On the other hand after the consultants leave and managment goes back to sleep they may walk into work one day and decide "that was stupid" and it will be back to business as usual.

I've seen it happen.

Duolab123
1-Dec-2016, 18:24
I for one purchased the bulk of my chemistry locally while I could. Specialized things that the local store couldn't get I purchased from another shop a bit farther away. Unusual items came from B&H. When the camera store 45 minutes from me closed doors (after Walmart drove them out of business) I drove an hour and twenty minutes to the big shop about once a month. They diversified, started selling computers and little by little, as the hobbyist market for photographic materials dried up, the pros went to digital, the photo-finishing business evaporated and they couldn't compete with the big box stores they went out of business. They sold chemistry and paper and film to us die-hards till the end. All six or seven of us. Our first iMac came from them. I purchased paper from B&H because the most local option only carried Kodak RC, and could only order by the case, the pro shop didn't have much variety after a few years. I actually ordered Agfa paper and their version of Polytoner from the local rep back when there still was such a thing. It was delivered to the local mini lab, then to a larger minilab/camera store about 1:45 away after the local one switched to Fuji (they too are long out of business). I purchased Sprint chemistry through a shop over in NH for years, they are now a shadow of their former selves, no longer develop film, sell cameras or chemistry and mostly do banner printing. They might still have film, I don't know, a trip there to be asked "we used to sell cameras?" doesn't yield much, the last film I bought there was insanely over-priced. B&H is the last option on the East Coast for getting anything on short notice, barely slower than driving to Boston or NY or Montreal, each of which is a whole days work. (Not to mention the apparent illegality of transporting the stuff on a regular drivers license...) I've not tried carrying chemistry over the border myself, I can only imagine the cell I'd spend my time in trying to bring such suspicious powders and heavy liquids into my country.

The lack of clients for darkroom services makes the slower timeframe from Freestyle less problematic than it would have been ten years ago, as most of my paid work comes from a scanner and Photoshop these days. My Freestyle order will arrive today, enough developer to tide me over till summer. I will have to order from Sprint soon as I'm about to open my last cube of fixer.

Having had far too many bad experiences with Adorama selling me things they don't have in stock and playing the back order game for weeks on end and Unique Photo not carrying many of my usual materials it is down to Freestyle or Fotoimpex for me.

I'm lucky I have TWO Real camera stores locally (about 25 miles apart). I'm good friends with both shop owners. I am able to get Genuine real Flexicolor C-41 and Fuji RA-4 . I have bought at least $50,000 worth of stuff from these guys over the years (They have helped me sell a lot too). Only one has much in black and white chemistry This fellow GIVES me a lot of stuff people drop off just to get rid of it. I haven't ordered chemistry from BH in probably ten years. I would always pick stuff up from my buddies. Film and paper is a different story. They don't have any sheet film, only one has 120 film.
There used to be 6 shops in my home town of around 110,000 people now one.
It's a whole different world.
Best Regards, Mike

sepiareverb
1-Dec-2016, 19:07
I'm lucky I have TWO Real camera stores locally (about 25 miles apart). I'm good friends with both shop owners. I am able to get Genuine real Flexicolor C-41 and Fuji RA-4 . I have bought at least $50,000 worth of stuff from these guys over the years (They have helped me sell a lot too). Only one has much in black and white chemistry This fellow GIVES me a lot of stuff people drop off just to get rid of it. I haven't ordered chemistry from BH in probably ten years. I would always pick stuff up from my buddies. Film and paper is a different story. They don't have any sheet film, only one has 120 film.
There used to be 6 shops in my home town of around 110,000 people now one.
It's a whole different world.
Best Regards, Mike

Rural VT had stores every 50 miles back in the day, they were down to every 75 miles or so when I arrived here in 1995. Now there is one in Burlington that doesn't sell much for chemistry or paper. Another good camera repair/used shop, but no supplies. I know of three private darkrooms within a 30 mile radius. I know of three others that are no more. The college where I taught for years is close to shutting down the darkroom, the only thing keeping it going is that they don't have the money to gut it and turn it into a computer lab. No wonder there are no shops around...

denverjims
2-Dec-2016, 07:53
B&H must have told it's people to blame UPS, but obviously it was an internal decision to shut this down.

Absolutely!
Think on it. Our many of our local photo stores get their products delivered via UPS and, if this was a UPS policy, most of the photo stores in the country would no longer be able to sell chemicals because they could not get it delivered to them. This does not seem to be the case. The owner of my local told me that there has been absolutely NO change in policy by UPS that they are aware of. They are getting their Ilford chemicals delivered just fine for me to buy. Unless it a NYC ONLY policy, B&H's explanation does not wash.

As far as I'm concerned, B&H can make whatever decision they wish about changing their product offerings and, I guess, it's their business - literally. Frankly, at the price they were selling liquid chemistries at plus the free shipping, I was surprised that they could afford to ship from NYC to Denver area for free and still make any money. So I'm not shocked. However, to not be up front about the reason bothers me a lot.

I'd be lying if I said that I will never buy from them again, but it will affect my future decisions as to where I will look to buy.

But we have to face the fact that we are a small demographic in the photographic retail/wholesale marketplace. The damage we might do to them by our moving away may be equivalent to the damage that the bulldozer threatening Arthur Dent (in the Hitchhiker's Guide) would have sustained if it had rolled over him.

faberryman
2-Dec-2016, 07:53
Back before all the bruhaha began, I ordered a tripod head from B&H. It was defective. Fortunately, B&H's return policy and procedure is good. I received an e-mail from them yesterday notifying me that a replacement had be shipped. I checked UPS status this morning and learned that it would be coming by UPS Ground.

158175

If UPS Ground is a speedy enough delivery method for tripod heads, surely it is a speedy enough delivery method for photographic chemicals. I am sure their customers, myself included, would not begrudge them an extra day or two delay in receiving their orders. It seems to be the shipping option of choice for all other retail suppliers of photographic chemicals.

Drew Wiley
2-Dec-2016, 09:32
They certainly don't sell MUCH outdoor gear. Why not a token tent along with binoculars? Bird watchers and hunters shop there too, not just photographers. By the same token, REI sells binoculars and GPS phones along with a big selection of tents. If a particular marketing approach keeps you efficiently in business, you'll still be around to help people next year too. The problem seems to be that, when a market trend skews, businesses forget who they once were, where they came from. That is what the shift to digital has done, but also brought in a lot of new competition. So once again, the squeaky wheel gets the oil, and in my case, the squeaky wheel needs traditional film and darkroom paper. And yes, they did have in stock what I needed yesterday, and will probably have it too me faster than my West Coast sources. But I also like to support the camera store down the street, to encourage them to keep film and darkroom supplies healthy
locally, which they've done, even though 60% of their business in now digi-camera related instead.

faberryman
2-Dec-2016, 13:42
Which store are you using in the SF Bay area for photographic chemicals?

Drew Wiley
2-Dec-2016, 16:19
Common things, along with some specialty alt Formulary chemicals are available here in town at Looking Glass. Otherwise, I get ingredients directly from Formulary in Montana, or more exotic thins from specialty scientific supply houses, like Fisher Scientific. I've been getting good amidol from Artcraft in NY. Formerly, we had one of the best chem supply houses right here in town, mainly serving pharmaceutical and biotech concerns, but also photographers as over the country. Sadly, that didn't survive due to the second generation of ownership being lured away by the extremely high pay offered directly by the tech industry. Basic color kits like RA/RT can either be ordered in for me, or I get them shipped from Freestyle in LA. Sometimes they're in stock locally too, depending on what I request. Some of the community colleges also still seem to be using RA4 printers. The remaining big labs obviously buy their supplies directly from Fuji or Kodak agents.

faberryman
2-Dec-2016, 16:31
I will be in SF in a couple of months and was looking for a local source. Last time I was in town, I picked up film and basic chemicals at Glass Key. I checked Looking Glass. They appear to carry only film and paper. Maybe they just don't advertise their chemicals.

Graham Patterson
2-Dec-2016, 16:45
Looking Glass does not have everything on their website, and they don't stock a huge range of chemicals. If you want something in particular I'd call and ask about stock in advance. Like all stores, they have to be careful not to tie up too much inventory in slower moving items. They are the most local for me, and get my business. Seawood, over in San Rafael, means crossing a bridge.

sepiareverb
2-Dec-2016, 19:18
Back before all the bruhaha began, I ordered a tripod head from B&H. It was defective. Fortunately, B&H's return policy and procedure is good. I received an e-mail from them yesterday notifying me that a replacement had be shipped. I checked UPS status this morning and learned that it would be coming by UPS Ground.

you must be mistaken, B&H does not ship by ground.


...We don't ship ground...

Remember: Repeat the lie until you believe it is true. We are in the post-fact era.

My order of paper for an upcoming print job has just shipped, by, wait, hmm, um, uh, UPS Ground.

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff221/sepiareverb/pkg1%20copy.jpg (http://s239.photobucket.com/user/sepiareverb/media/pkg1%20copy.jpg.html)

I'm wondering if they might actually ship by UPS Ground?

Henry? Any input on this confusing circumstance?

sepiareverb
2-Dec-2016, 19:45
...
Do I think the personal attacks on henryp and the snide comments (#168 is one example) have been helpful? No, and I think it's damaged the reputation of this forum (and apug) as a whole.

If we've offended you by trying to get some believable clarification on why I can no longer get my normal regular deliveries I sincerely apologize. Despite having received UPS Ground shipments of chemistry from B&H repeatedly over the last twenty years, and repeatedly over the last year and even as late as this week, I find it hard to understand why Henry has denied B&H ships by UPS Ground, and uses this as a rational for why they won't ship something like Perceptol. And if he continues to ignore the question I have posed I will continue to repeat it. If this is bringing the forum to a new low I suggest you read this thread: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?134810-Where-to-get-a-lens-board-drilled to get a sense of how the collective body treats one of our own who asks a reasonable question.

I believe the capacity to engage a representative of a longtime trusted supplier as a useful benefit of the forum (that we do not get an answer is perhaps telling that my notion that this is a benefit is in fact a fallacy, but I remain optimistic). I understand that you may not care if those of us who live outside a major metropolitan area can no longer get chemistry in a timely fashion, and that our attempts to understand why this is so might be seen as nasty or self serving. But having this change happen without warning and without any clear reasonable explanation (the oft cited 1996 plane crash has had ZERO impact until last week) does matter to many of us. I have not hung B&H out to dry. I ordered paper from them last evening to fulfill an order I have coming in Monday, and added on $60 worth of film for my own use. I am trying to understand how B&H can ship everything I order from them by UPS Ground yet have Henry claim that they do not ship by Ground, period. I am not the only one who has this question, nor am I the only one who has not gotten an answer to this question. In fact the question has been completely ignored by Henry. Perhaps it must be asked directly?

henryp, why do you say B&H does not ship by Ground when so many of us here have received packages from B&H via UPS Ground many times over the last year?

faberryman
2-Dec-2016, 20:10
I am not the only one who has this question, nor am I the only one who has not gotten an answer to this question. In fact the question has been completely ignored by Henry. Perhaps it must be asked directly?

It is not you to whom Sal Santamaura's indignation is directed. My mockery of a mockery has offended his sensibilities.

Oren Grad
2-Dec-2016, 20:14
you must be mistaken, B&H does not ship by ground....I'm wondering if they might actually ship by UPS Ground?

So here's a speculation: B&H has a contract with UPS in which they get lower rates in return for generating high volumes of business and leaving it up to UPS to decide how to route any given package. A shipment may well go by ground, but under such an arrangement B&H would have nothing to say about it. And to gain the efficiency that justifies offering a discount, UPS wants to be able to shuffle packages freely among different transportation methods without worrying about special requirements.

Unfortunately, if there is one thing B&H has certainly dropped the ball on, it's communicating clearly about what they're doing with their shipping and why. So we have no idea whether that guess is anywhere near accurate. Perhaps the situation will be clearer once we see what happens with lithium-ion batteries in the new year.

Even if they have such an arrangement with UPS, I agree with others here in wishing Henry could explain why they are unable to offer alternatives, for example USPS with appropriate labeling, for those products that UPS doesn't want to accept. (It's not as if that would be costing UPS any business - the premise is that they don't want those shipments.) I don't mind paying a reasonable premium for any darkroom chemicals that do require special handling per Federal regulations.

I've shipped ORM-D via USPS, following the specified requirements. It's not difficult to do it properly. Yes, it takes a bit more time, but not so much if you're set up to do it routinely. It's simply not the case that other vendors who do ship these materials must necessarily be violating regulations.

sepiareverb
2-Dec-2016, 20:27
So here's a speculation:

Likely true. Why we can't get a reasonable explanation for the new policy from someone among us who might (I suppose) have some connection to B&H is beyond me.

I don't doubt that 90% of us who routinely purchase chemistry from B&H would gladly cover a surcharge with each shipment to cover their ass. The fact that B&H has always (well for the thirty years I've been buying from them anyway) been a trusted, reliable, honest vendor is something I don't take lightly when making purchasing decisions.

Sal Santamaura
2-Dec-2016, 22:07
It is not you to whom Sal Santamaura's indignation is directed. My mockery of a mockery has offended his sensibilities.Huh? You didn't offend my sensibilities. I merely disagreed with HMG, expressing the opinion that your post, along with others' snide comments and personal attacks on Henry Posner, damaged your and their reputations, not the reputations of this forum and APUG.

Wow, if you think post #181 reflects indignance, your sensibilities are out of calibration. :)

faberryman
3-Dec-2016, 13:12
Perhaps B&H is just trying to get us to order in larger quantities and helping us save money at the same time. As shown, 500ml of Ilford Multigrade paper developer is "Available for In-Store Pickup Only", while 5000ml (5L) is "Free Expedited Shipping on Orders Over $49".

158225

xkaes
3-Dec-2016, 16:03
HOT TIP!!!

If there is a College or University in your area, they probably have a Chemistry Department, a Medical School, or some other division that teaches students or does research that uses chemicals. In order to do that, they need to buy a LOT of chemicals. At the end of their "project" or "research period", what do you think they do with all those chemicals -- some used and some completely untouched?

Let me give you a hint.

THEY THROW THEM OUT!!!

I'm NOT kidding you at all. I was on the faculty of the Medical School at the University of Colorado for 20 years. They, unlike many "schools", had a central "drop-off" office for all of the left-over chemicals -- that professors in all of the various departments on campus -- needed to get rid off. The coordinator of my campus's drop-off office would contantly email all of the other faculty members each month listing all of the chemicals he needed to get rid off. He wanted to give them away to other faculty members who could use them because that is a LOT cheaper than paying some company to "dispose" of them. Admittedly, I was one of the very few who paid attention and took him up on his offers.

But most professors don't have time or interest in photography, like me. I can't tell you how much Glacial Acetic acid he gave me! Everytime I would go over to pick up some chemicals I could use, he would try to pawn some other stuff off on me. But he was very nice. Some of the stuff he had was NASTY. Most of it was perfectly harmless, and MUCH of it was useable in photogrpahy. I once got TWO POUNDS of REAGENT GRADE Silver Nitrate. TWO POUNDS -- worth about TWO GRAND!!! I also got lots of chemical containers (used) and other useful, non-photographic chemicals.

AND IT WAS ALL FREE!!!

The University of Colorado campus in Boulder has a similar program to get rid of "old" chemicals. The chemicals there are free, but they will only give away no-hazardous stuff and you have to pick it up and MAYBE sign a waiver. In short, the Colleges and Universities in your area will have different rules and regs, but it's free to check out and believe me, if they have someone with their head screwed on right they will GIVE you the stuff. Start out by seeing if they have a central chemical disposal office. If not, you will have to contact the various departments that use chemical -- chemistry, medicine, geography, physics, earth science, etc.

YOU PAID FOR ALL OF THESE CHEMICALS TO BEGIN WITH. YOU JUST DIDN'T KNOW IT!!!!

WHO NEEDS B&H?????????

HMG
3-Dec-2016, 18:50
If we've offended you by trying to get some believable clarification on why I can no longer get my normal regular deliveries I sincerely apologize. Despite having received UPS Ground shipments of chemistry from B&H repeatedly over the last twenty years, and repeatedly over the last year and even as late as this week, I find it hard to understand why Henry has denied B&H ships by UPS Ground, and uses this as a rational for why they won't ship something like Perceptol. And if he continues to ignore the question I have posed I will continue to repeat it. If this is bringing the forum to a new low I suggest you read this thread: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?134810-Where-to-get-a-lens-board-drilled to get a sense of how the collective body treats one of our own who asks a reasonable question.

I believe the capacity to engage a representative of a longtime trusted supplier as a useful benefit of the forum (that we do not get an answer is perhaps telling that my notion that this is a benefit is in fact a fallacy, but I remain optimistic). I understand that you may not care if those of us who live outside a major metropolitan area can no longer get chemistry in a timely fashion, and that our attempts to understand why this is so might be seen as nasty or self serving. But having this change happen without warning and without any clear reasonable explanation (the oft cited 1996 plane crash has had ZERO impact until last week) does matter to many of us. I have not hung B&H out to dry. I ordered paper from them last evening to fulfill an order I have coming in Monday, and added on $60 worth of film for my own use. I am trying to understand how B&H can ship everything I order from them by UPS Ground yet have Henry claim that they do not ship by Ground, period. I am not the only one who has this question, nor am I the only one who has not gotten an answer to this question. In fact the question has been completely ignored by Henry. Perhaps it must be asked directly?

henryp, why do you say B&H does not ship by Ground when so many of us here have received packages from B&H via UPS Ground many times over the last year?

Precisely the attitude I objected to. Where did I ever say anything to suggest that "you may not care if those of us who live outside a major metropolitan area can no longer get chemistry in a timely fashion"? Or that " that our attempts to understand why this is so might be seen as nasty or self serving."? Where, when, or how did I imply anything about nasty or self-serving? You put words in my mouth and then objected to them.

I did use the term snide, so here are a couple of quotes from your posts:

"He will ignore this as well. If it can't add up it is ignored."
"Remember: Repeat the lie until you believe it is true. We are in the post-fact era."

denverjims
4-Dec-2016, 16:13
HMG & sepiareverb

You two wouldn't be Trump & Hillary using alter-identities, would you? Kind of sounds like it a bit the way you're going after it. ;)

Look, we're all upset but "can't we all just get along" and focus our wrath on B&H - where it belongs?

Duolab123
4-Dec-2016, 18:19
HMG & sepiareverb

You two wouldn't be Trump & Hillary using alter-identities, would you? Kind of sounds like it a bit the way you're going after it. ;)

Look, we're all upset but "can't we all just get along" and focus our wrath on B&H - where it belongs?

I smell a Libertarian Rat :p:rolleyes:;)
LOL Mike

denverjims
4-Dec-2016, 22:11
I smell a Libertarian Rat :p:rolleyes:;)
LOL Mike

Busted! ;)
Jim

Sal Santamaura
5-Dec-2016, 09:05
...can't we...focus our wrath on B&H - where it belongs?Here's the essence of the problem. B&H is a business. It earned no wrath. It either gets/keeps customers or it doesn't. We ought not focus wrath on anyone/anything, but rather throw it completely out of focus and allow it to dissipate into the ether. How about we get back to photography and let the merchants decide what they do or don't want to sell?

Drew Wiley
5-Dec-2016, 09:40
If we managed to shun or boycott each remaining supplier for traditional photographic supplies, given the fact that somebody always seem to have a grudge on
one supplier or another, it would be like shooting off a foot to compensate for a sore toe on the other. Pretty soon nobody would be left.

Kirk Gittings
5-Dec-2016, 10:23
If we managed to shun or boycott each remaining supplier for traditional photographic supplies, given the fact that somebody always seem to have a grudge on
one supplier or another, it would be like shooting off a foot to compensate for a sore toe on the other. Pretty soon nobody would be left.

djdister
5-Dec-2016, 10:50
If we managed to shun or boycott each remaining supplier for traditional photographic supplies, given the fact that somebody always seem to have a grudge on
one supplier or another, it would be like shooting off a foot to compensate for a sore toe on the other. Pretty soon nobody would be left.

Looking for the Like or +1 button on this, but we don't have one (yet)...

denverjims
5-Dec-2016, 12:19
If we managed to shun or boycott each remaining supplier for traditional photographic supplies, given the fact that somebody always seem to have a grudge on
one supplier or another, it would be like shooting off a foot to compensate for a sore toe on the other. Pretty soon nobody would be left.

+1
and, as I said earlier in this thread: while it make some feel better to do so, the fact is that we would not be really hurting them in any significant way if we stopped buying from them. My guess is that traditional darkroom and LF is well south of 1% of their total yearly sales. One of those digital Nikons they sell has got to be = a 'ton' of bottles Ilford chemistry with free shipping.

Corran
5-Dec-2016, 12:35
Actually most consumer electronics are pretty low profit items from what I remember working in sales and knowing wholesale/retail prices. The big money is in the accessories and extras. Before MAP regulations some huge retailers could advertise low-margin items at lower prices than mom-and-pops even got them for at wholesale due to smaller orders. I used to work at one of the largest music instrument dealers in the country and trolled through the inventory prices out of curiosity and bought a lot of stuff at wholesale (employee perk).

I have no idea about profit margins on chemicals. Seems like it should be pretty high.

faberryman
5-Dec-2016, 12:50
+1
and, as I said earlier in this thread: while it make some feel better to do so, the fact is that we would not be really hurting them in any significant way if we stopped buying from them.

The question is do you want to deal with a retailer that takes you for a chump?

Drew Wiley
5-Dec-2016, 12:59
Given the incredible level of electronics competition out there, I'd imagine the profit margin on traditional darkroom odds n' ends is far higher than digital gear.
Volume of demand has obviously shrunken. Other aftermarket items like camera bags probably have an obscene markup level from the point of mfg to actual sale, though I don't know what percent they get at the retail level. Ya gotta make money where you can, when you can. Some product lines attract new business, while a combination of all kinds of other things might drive higher profit margins. And the snazzy equipment requires the highest inventory commitment, dollar-wise. I speak this with a helluva lot of experience, and a helluva track record to go with it, though attempting to be a photo supplier would frighten me like a ghost. No thanks. But anybody that thinks you can lo-ball everything will be out of business pretty fast. So that approach doesn't do customers any good at all in the long haul. B&H has been around a long time, and I hope they will be in the future. So if diversifying in some manner that might not appeal to me personally keeps them healthy, that's fine with me. Chemicals are best served by specialized niche dealers anyway.

Ed Richards
5-Dec-2016, 13:53
As someone who has been debating giving up film processing, this might push me over the edge. I have some chemicals stockpiled, but I am in a part of the country where you cannot buy stuff off the shelf. Wonder how many others are on this fence?

Ed Richards
5-Dec-2016, 13:55
But what about Adorama? Not a favorite, but they seem to still be shipping chemicals.

Drew Wiley
5-Dec-2016, 14:01
You don't have UPS or Fedex or even a Post Office? Heck, I bet if someone had an old motorcycle in your neighborhood and wanted to refurbish it, they would have
the determination to find parts and ship them in. People probably even ship in feathers and hooks to make their own customized fishing flies or lures. Basic darkroom chemistry is easy to get. Sounds like you have some other reason for throwing in the towel, and are just looking for an excuse.

Corran
5-Dec-2016, 14:05
I am in a part of the country where you cannot buy stuff off the shelf

Of course this is mostly due to my age, but I have never even seen a dedicated photography store that stocked film and chemicals. I think there is maybe one or two places in Atlanta that still might sell film and possibly some D76 or other standard stuff, but obviously I'm not going to spend $25 in gas and public transit or parking fees to go there.

Isn't that the case for most everyone nowadays who don't live in NY, LA, or a couple other very large cities?

This is why I buy things in bulk and use long-lasting one-shot chemicals. I stopped using XTOL because it went bad too fast in large quantities, etc. - so for instance I am still working on my last order of 5 bottles of Rodinal from Freestyle and a few bottles of FX-39 I ordered. It seems to me B&H was often the vendor of choice for international or large orders for the free shipping, and yes the last time I ordered from them was to get two giant 5 gallon jugs of fixer that would've cost $50 to ship from CA but shipped free from B&H.

Bob Salomon
5-Dec-2016, 14:10
As someone who has been debating giving up film processing, this might push me over the edge. I have some chemicals stockpiled, but I am in a part of the country where you cannot buy stuff off the shelf. Wonder how many others are on this fence?

What about Lakeland Photo?

Bob Salomon
5-Dec-2016, 14:11
Of course this is mostly due to my age, but I have never even seen a dedicated photography store that stocked film and chemicals. I think there is maybe one or two places in Atlanta that still might sell film and possibly some D76 or other standard stuff, but obviously I'm not going to spend $25 in gas and public transit or parking fees to go there.

Isn't that the case for most everyone nowadays who don't live in NY, LA, or a couple other very large cities?

This is why I buy things in bulk and use long-lasting one-shot chemicals. I stopped using XTOL because it went bad too fast in large quantities, etc. - so for instance I am still working on my last order of 5 bottles of Rodinal from Freestyle and a few bottles of FX-39 I ordered. It seems to me B&H was often the vendor of choice for international or large orders for the free shipping, and yes the last time I ordered from them was to get two giant 5 gallon jugs of fixer that would've cost $50 to ship from CA but shipped free from B&H.

Showcase and PPR have free parking, so you can't use that as an excuse.

Corran
5-Dec-2016, 14:20
Showcase and PPR have free parking, so you can't use that as an excuse.

I must admit I have never heard of either of them. A quick Google search finds some terrible websites and no mention of film/chemicals except some Fuji Instax at one of them, so I don't think I'll take the 150 mile round-trip to visit. IMO specialty and even general walk-in retail is dead. I buy 90% of my non-food items online.

Drew Wiley
5-Dec-2016, 14:43
If you time things right and order your supplies strategically, rather than paying shipping fees for every piddly-diddly little thing, places like Photographers Formulary in Montana will ship all over the country reasonably. They sell bulk chemicals as well as kits. At lot of this is analogous to walking into a supermarket
asking to buy just one egg. If that's the case, you better build your own henhouse, because that's simply not an efficient way of either shipping or selling eggs.
So it should be no surprise that some things we used to be able to get in a variety of fluid quantities have now been consolidated into fewer sku's leaning toward
slightly bigger volumes. No big deal. Just get used to it.

faberryman
5-Dec-2016, 14:54
If you time things right and order your supplies strategically, rather than paying shipping fees for every piddly-diddly little thing, places like Photographers Formulary in Montana will ship all over the country reasonably. They sell bulk chemicals as well as kits. At lot of this is analogous to walking into a supermarket
asking to buy just one egg. If that's the case, you better build your own henhouse, because that's simply not an efficient way of either shipping or selling eggs.
So it should be no surprise that some things we used to be able to get in a variety of fluid quantities have now been consolidated into fewer sku's leaning toward
slightly bigger volumes. No big deal. Just get used to it.

What has that got to do with B&H deciding to discontinue shipping chemicals and bogusly blaming it on shipping regulations? One egg? Henhouse? I don't recall anyone complaining they couldn't buy a half a bag of XTOL.

Bob Salomon
5-Dec-2016, 15:05
I must admit I have never heard of either of them. A quick Google search finds some terrible websites and no mention of film/chemicals except some Fuji Instax at one of them, so I don't think I'll take the 150 mile round-trip to visit. IMO specialty and even general walk-in retail is dead. I buy 90% of my non-food items online.

Then you should call Quality Camera in Atlanta as their web site is under construction. Among other things they are one of the largest Canham dealers in the Western Hemisphere. They also carry many other brands of new and used large format and lenses. They also have a considerable assortment of enlargers, contact printers, enlarging lenses, etc. you have to make an appointment to visit them. They are behind G.T..

faberryman
5-Dec-2016, 15:17
And its only a 450 mile round trip from Valdosta. They do have over 900 items on eBay though, so you could browse through what is probably the bulk of their inventory there.

Corran
5-Dec-2016, 15:21
I don't really see your point. Like I said it's pretty much impossible for most of us to casually walk in to a store and buy chemicals or even film for the most part (you don't mention if they carry it, it's not on eBay, and their eBay used sales are overpriced). Sorry for derailing the thread.

Bob Salomon
5-Dec-2016, 15:33
I don't really see your point. Like I said it's pretty much impossible for most of us to casually walk in to a store and buy chemicals or even film for the most part (you don't mention if they carry it, it's not on eBay, and their eBay used sales are overpriced). Sorry for derailing the thread.

That's why I said to call. Never hurts to ask and it is much easier to negotiate face to face. Have you been there?

Corran
5-Dec-2016, 15:39
Negotiate? For film and chemistry, if they even carry it? That'd be interesting. I assume you are now talking about their used gear, which I mentioned, but that isn't what this thread is about nor did I bring it up like I was looking for used gear. I'm really unclear why you've shifted to a completely different topic and attacking me. Walk-in retail is pretty much dead. Good luck to them but no I am not interested in driving hundreds of miles and "negotiating" for used gear easily available here or eBay for half the costs and maybe getting a couple of rolls of film at likely a huge markup if they even carry it.

Drew Wiley
5-Dec-2016, 16:52
If it walks like a chump and squawks like a chump ....

Drew Wiley
5-Dec-2016, 17:06
Sorry if that was a bit over the top. But there is a right way and a wrong way to complain. The right way is to do it in respectful and constructive manner. That
way they have an incentive to listen. But if you just walk out the door forever, so to speak, they simply have reason to lock it behind you. And look at both sides.
If there is enough potential business to warrant the hassle, they'll adapt. But if not, why bother? Something has to pay the overhead.

faberryman
5-Dec-2016, 17:36
Who's the chump? Being less than forthright with your customers and casting aspersions on your competitors to conceal your own motives does not pay the overhead, it loses business.

Drew Wiley
6-Dec-2016, 10:58
I've been dealing with B&H for decades. There are sometimes instances when web information is temporarily out of synch with the actual inventory status. My
guess is they have less then perfect synchronization between departments, just like most businesses, including the one I work for. But in all these years I've never
encountered anything unethical in my dealing with them. If there's a misunderstanding, inquire further before throwing mud. Otherwise, certain customers are
worth losing. Sometimes it's necessary in order to keep the other 99% happy.

henryp
6-Dec-2016, 11:51
I've been dealing with B&H for decades. There are sometimes instances when web information is temporarily out of synch with the actual inventory status. My guess is they have less then perfect synchronization between departments, just like most businesses, including the one I work for. But in all these years I've never encountered anything unethical in my dealing with them. If there's a misunderstanding, inquire further before throwing mud. Otherwise, certain customers are worth losing. Sometimes it's necessary in order to keep the other 99% happy.
Thank you. There have been instances when the site's updates are delayed by seconds or minutes but overall I think in the past couple of years our record of site accuracy is pretty good. Always room to improve though.

After a conference about this issue, I got this from a relevant manager:

While we are working on a solution, I would like to convey a few points:

1) B&H is strictly compliant with Federal and State regulations covering the transportation of Hazmat/Chemical materials.
2) Regulations are growing ever more complex. Some companies choose to put themselves and others at risk by violating these regulation. B&H doesn’t want to put ourselves or our carriers at risk.
3) Due to recent changes in regulation affecting both ground and air transportation of Hazmat/Chemical items, we are overhauling our systems to ensure that we can ship every item that we are legally allowed to ship with the proper preparation, labeling, and transportation methods.
4) We have no intention of abandoning our traditional film clientele.
5) Despite the protestations of some here, the genesis for all this in fact was the imposition of safety regulations in the aftermath of the ValuJet Flight 592 tragedy.

Taija71A
6-Dec-2016, 14:28
... There have been instances when the site's updates are delayed by seconds or minutes but overall I think in the past couple of years our record of site accuracy is pretty good. Always room to improve hough...

Henry, thank-you for that thread 'Update'. Greatly appreciated!
--
As one of your many 'Valued' Canadian Customers...

... I can only say that B&H has always 'Exceeded' my expectations with respect to; not only 'Stock Status' (*As per above),
But also on 'Industry Leading' Fast Shipping and accurate, Order Fulfillment -- Along with competitive, Pricing and outstanding, Customer Service.
--
Like many others here on the Forum... I have dealt with B&H for longer -- Than I care to remember.
B&H has always been... And still remains my #1 Supplier -- For all of my Photographic needs. :)
--
Keep up the 'Great Work' Henry and thank-you for the many, many years of 'Exemplary' Customer Service.

The hard work and dedication of the complete B&H Team is 'Without Peer'... And 'Does Not Go By Unnoticed!'
It is truly, greatly valued and appreciated -- 'Day In and Day Out'.
--
Thank-you! Kind Regards,

-Tim.
__________

Leigh
6-Dec-2016, 15:12
3) Due to recent changes in regulation affecting both ground and air transportation of Hazmat/Chemical items, we are overhauling our systems to ensure that we can ship every item that we are legally allowed to ship with the proper preparation, labeling, and transportation methods.
Henry...

This is the point that we're all questioning.

What regulation, exactly, was changed, by what agency, and what was the effective date?

Can you provide the text of the change (assuming it's not lengthy), or an excerpt / summary?

Thanks.

- Leigh

Michael Dodd
6-Dec-2016, 15:53
If there's a misunderstanding, inquire further before throwing mud. Otherwise, certain customers are
worth losing. Sometimes it's necessary in order to keep the other 99% happy. if there is a misunderstanding it started with Henry's post #37 Trying to cover up a costing cutting move or what ever instead of being just honest about a business decision. Instead it is easier to blame someone or something for an unpopular move. B&H got caught in a misunderstanding and Henry continued the misunderstanding.

For example Let's say I am work playing on the computer enlightening everyone on the lfpf with all my wisdom from mountain climbing to Japanese hand saws. My boss catches me and instead of saying to my boss your right I was taking a little break and take what ever complaint from him I have coming. I say oh no mr. 99% I am doing critical research on shipping hazardous chemicals. Because there was a plane crash 20 years ago and we need to do something about the way we ship our mountain boots. Then I realize that I said boots instead of chemicals but I continue to make excuses and he knows i am bull sitting him.
Now mr 99% Is really upset because I lied to him Not because I was goofing off!

Duolab123
6-Dec-2016, 17:28
WOW, I have bought from B&H for well over 20 years. Never had a problem.

I just don't understand what the big deal is. If they have what you want and will ship it, buy it. If not get it somewhere else or make your own.

Clearly B&H didn't set out to pi** everyone off. Geezz, Mike

Greg Y
6-Dec-2016, 17:39
If we managed to shun or boycott each remaining supplier for traditional photographic supplies, given the fact that somebody always seem to have a grudge on
one supplier or another, it would be like shooting off a foot to compensate for a sore toe on the other. Pretty soon nobody would be left.

Thank You Drew & Kirk....

Kirk Gittings
6-Dec-2016, 20:31
Thank You Drew & Kirk....

B&H has been one of my "go to" suppliers for decades. I've never had a single problem with them. Any business has its hiccups and misfires. I fully expect B&H to get this straight. They know on which side their bread is buttered.

Merg Ross
6-Dec-2016, 22:45
B&H has been one of my "go to" suppliers for decades. I've never had a single problem with them.

Likewise with me. I first used B&H in the 70's when they were mail-order. Always first-class in every facet of the operation; I'm with those who have had good experiences over the decades.

Thank you B&H for supporting our niche in an age of disappearing suppliers; you can count on my continued support.

henryp
7-Dec-2016, 08:54
Henry, thank-you for that thread 'Update'. Greatly appreciated!
--
As one of your many 'Valued' Canadian Customers...

... I can only say that B&H has always 'Exceeded' my expectations with respect to; not only 'Stock Status' (*As per above),
But also on 'Industry Leading' Fast Shipping and accurate, Order Fulfillment -- Along with competitive, Pricing and outstanding, Customer Service.
--
Like many others here on the Forum... I have dealt with B&H for longer -- Than I care to remember.
B&H has always been... And still remains my #1 Supplier -- For all of my Photographic needs. :)
--
Keep up the 'Great Work' Henry and thank-you for the many, many years of 'Exemplary' Customer Service.

The hard work and dedication of the complete B&H Team is 'Without Peer'... And 'Does Not Go By Unnoticed!'
It is truly, greatly valued and appreciated -- 'Day In and Day Out'.
--
Thank-you! Kind Regards,

-Tim.
__________


B&H has been one of my "go to" suppliers for decades. I've never had a single problem with them. Any business has its hiccups and misfires. I fully expect B&H to get this straight. They know on which side their bread is buttered.


Likewise with me. I first used B&H in the 70's when they were mail-order. Always first-class in every facet of the operation; I'm with those who have had good experiences over the decades.
Thank you B&H for supporting our niche in an age of disappearing suppliers; you can count on my continued support.

Thank you. I appreciate this very much and will share it with others here. Just to reiterate, We have no intention of abandoning our traditional film clientele.

Randy Moe
7-Dec-2016, 08:59
Good!


Thank you. I appreciate this very much and will share it with others here. Just to reiterate, We have no intention of abandoning our traditional film clientele.

Leigh
7-Dec-2016, 09:46
Just to reiterate, We have no intention of abandoning our traditional film clientele.
Henry,

What you (and others) don't understand is that you are abandoning your clients as a consequence of your actions.

Almost 250 posts in this thread, and similar on APUG, should dramatically demonstrate that fact.

Significant changes in corporate policy are never made in a vacuum. Consequences MUST always be considered.

Your assertion that you don't ship via UPS ground has been proven false by several customers.
Such a policy would be ridiculous. ALL shipments leave your warehouse by ground.

UPS and other vendors offer the option to mark a given shipment "ground only", specifically for hazmats.
Adding a ground ship option would be a simple solution to the problem cited by numerous posters. .

- Leigh

Patrick Gauthier
7-Dec-2016, 10:26
Just checked and TF-5 can't be added to the cart anymore :( Hopefully PF can ship this to Canada otherwise it's find another source.

B&H just shipped my TF-4 to Canada. . . and will ship TF-5 to me as well.

There is select chemistry they will still ship (to Canada at least).

Sal Santamaura
7-Dec-2016, 10:37
...Your assertion that you don't ship via UPS ground has been proven false by several customers...Let's try this again. It seems likely that, as part of its agreement with UPS which enables such deep discounts the merchant is able to offer free expedited shipping on orders over $49, B&H gives up the right to specify the exact mode of transportation UPS employs for any given order. In other words, UPS makes the determination of how to route parcels handed it by B&H.

In that scenario, B&H doesn't tender a box to UPS as a "Ground" shipment. It simply enters a parcel's information as "expedited" under its contract and UPS' software generates the label B&H then affixes to the box. Can any of the vociferous complainers grasp this concept?


I'm surprised Henry still has his job. He made major PR mistakes and stuck to his mistakes way too long...I'm not surprised at all. Henry has stoically suffered the wrath of those who blindly attack while continuing to deal with individual customers via private communications in a professional, effective manner.

In my opinion, the concept of "entitlement reform" ought be applied to anyone who thinks they have an inalienable right to know complete details of why and/or how internal business decisions are made. They don't. They can simply not patronize the business if they don't like or agree with the business' decision(s). To make attacks on the business without evidence is wrong and might even be actionable as slander. Taking deep breaths and displaying patience are in order.

Sal Santamaura
7-Dec-2016, 11:02
Sal, he made a mistake. Your high brow defense is meaningless...I didn't say he didn't make a mistake. If the scenario I described is accurate, he made a mistake by not conveying it. However, you didn't say 'he made a mistake:"


I'm surprised Henry still has his job. He made major PR mistakes and stuck to his mistakes way too long...Bold added by me for clarity. I'm not sure what's 'high brow' about my post.


...I am not attacking, I am stating the obvious. Slander? Really? Is this how you silence others?I didn't say you were among the group who's attacked relentlessly and snidely. You're not. They, on the other hand, have continuously populated this thread with uncivil accusations of untruth without solid evidence. Henry might have failed to clearly communicate the root cause for changes at B&H, but I see no basis for concluding he lied.

I neither desire nor have the ability to silence anyone. Rather, I hoped my post would inspire those who've been acting badly to reconsider their approach. Flies, honey, vinegar and all that. It seemed worth a shot.

Randy Moe
7-Dec-2016, 11:05
So it goes

Drew Wiley
7-Dec-2016, 11:10
I'll merely recap what I just stated on the same subject over on APUG, since I work for analogous type of business, albeit only two more weeks after forty years here. And what I said is that 99% of the complaints come from 1% of the customers, who probably don't contribute even .01% of the sales anyway. So it works
both ways.

djdister
7-Dec-2016, 11:40
And to further complicate the shipping picture, did you know:

"Both UPS and FedEx rely on the postal office for the back-end of their cheaper two- to seven-day delivery options, Smartpost for FedEx and Surepost for UPS. Amazon also uses the USPS and enlisted it for Sunday deliveries. The post office's Parcel Select service, launched in its current format in 2008, allows the companies to transport the packages the long distance themselves, then sort by ZIP Code and deliver to the local post office. The letter carrier takes it for the most expensive last leg of the delivery."

From the Wall Street Journal, August 4, 2014.

faberryman
7-Dec-2016, 11:58
Unique Photo has seen a chink in B&H's marketing and public relations strategy and posted a new thread at APUG entitled "Unique Photo Still Deals in Film, Chemistry and Darkroom Equipment (http://www.apug.org/forum/index.php?threads/unique-photo-still-deals-in-film-chemistry-and-darkroom-equipment.142388/)", so it seems things are heating up rather than cooling off.