B&H No Longer Shipping Chemistry

[LotusEsp]

Unique Photo has seen a chink in B&H's marketing and public relations strategy and posted a new thread at APUG entitled "Unique Photo Still Deals in Film, Chemistry and Darkroom Equipment (http://www.apug.org/forum/index.php?threads/unique-photo-still-deals-in-film-chemistry-and-darkroom-equipment.142388/)", so it seems things are heating up rather than cooling off.

for a $13 bottle of developer starter sent to canada:

UPS Worldwide Express $75.58
UPS Worldwide Expedited $70.33
UPS Worldwide Express Plus $134.24
UPS Saver $75.94

[Leigh]

Can any of the vociferous complainers grasp this concept?
Sal, perhaps you can understand this...

If B&H puts an ORM-D label on a box, UPS is required by law to not ship that package by air.

So the options would appear to be ground or deep-water freighter.
Yes/no?

- Leigh

[Sal Santamaura]

Sal, perhaps you can understand this...

If B&H puts an ORM-D label on a box, UPS is required by law to not ship that package by air.

So the options would appear to be ground or deep-water freighter.
Yes/no?...Leigh, perhaps you can understand this...

B&H might not want to put its shipping room personnel through the training and certification necessary to ship ORM-D products. The agreement between B&H and UPS might explicitly exclude ORM-D shipments.

In any case, it's none of our concern. Either B&H wants to find a way to ship the photo chemicals it did until recently (non-ORM-D) or it doesn't. If it doesn't, we can purchase those things elsewhere. If it does, we can continue to purchase them from B&H. Their business, their decision.

[Drew Wiley]

When we still did out-of-area shipments to military installations and defense contractors, it was a full time position just to keep abreast of the special paperwork involved, a constantly moving target. Originally six people were involved. Eventually it just wasn't worth it anymore. Not only spillable liquid products were under constant scrutiny, but even shipping a sack of cement. Yeah, two bucks a sack, then add forty bucks for a crate, then the overhead for paperwork, and shipping the crate itself, and you get a two hundred dollar sack of cement. But I guess if you shipped a toothbrush to the international space station, it would cost a six million
bucks. That why I don't even try to sell any leftover specialty chemicals to forum members who could use them. Too much hassle. Hard to even get a specific
answer for UPS with a commercial account. Never mind the UPS stores, where the cumulative personnel IQ remains in the single digits.

[Leigh]

Never mind the UPS stores, where the cumulative personnel IQ remains in the single digits.
Only if that digit is preceded by a decimal point, and perhaps an interposed zero.

- Leigh

[Bob Salomon]

When we still did out-of-area shipments to military installations and defense contractors, it was a full time position just to keep abreast of the special paperwork involved, a constantly moving target. Originally six people were involved. Eventually it just wasn't worth it anymore. Not only spillable liquid products were under constant scrutiny, but even shipping a sack of cement. Yeah, two bucks a sack, then add forty bucks for a crate, then the overhead for paperwork, and shipping the crate itself, and you get a two hundred dollar sack of cement. But I guess if you shipped a toothbrush to the international space station, it would cost a six million
bucks. That why I don't even try to sell any leftover specialty chemicals to forum members who could use them. Too much hassle. Hard to even get a specific
answer for UPS with a commercial account. Never mind the UPS stores, where the cumulative personnel IQ remains in the single digits.
Have a similar tale. We were, for about 5 years, an authorized GSA supplier. One day I got a call from someone who wanted to know if we had a groundglass for a Linhof 69 camera in stock. It was, they asked the price and I told them that this specific screen was $90.00 list price. The caller thanked me and asked for the catalog number, which I gave him.
Later that week we received a purchase order from the Defense Department for 1 piece of this groundglass at the full list price. As it was a US Government agency our credit Department had no problem approving a less than $100.00 order so we proceeded to process it.
While reviewing the PO we noticed that they were requesting that it be shipped in a Department of Defense listed waterproof packaging rated for desert shipment. This seemed a bit strange as the groundglass of acamera is waterproof itself. But if that is what they want then we would do our best to accommodate them. So I first called the contact on the PO to find out if it was really necessary for this packaging and he assured me that it was as the package could be stored outdoors. I explained that we did not have that packaging and had no other need for that packaging and our box supplier might have a minimum order quantity on ordering these boxes and what should we do about any extra costs in meeting this requirement. He said to just add the total cost onto our invoice for shipping and handling and they would pay it.
I called our box supplier and explained what we needed and what the contract called for and they said that they had it and would send us a sample. Problem solved! But not quite. Once we received the box we got the ground glass packaged for shipment but discovered that the contract did not include a shipping address. Just a billing address. So we called the contact again and he supplied an address for an Army unit in Saudi Arabia. Of course, since this is a desert country, it made us curious why the carton had to be water proof, but decided not to ask.
Now we had the product, the proper box and the shipping address so the next day we shipped it. No problem. Except now we had to get paid. We sent them an invoice when it was shipped and then, after 30 days, a statement. No payment. We sent them a statement each month for the next 2 or 3 months, no payment. But in the fourth month we got a phone call from an Inspector for the Defense Department who was in the next town over visiting a supplier and he would like to come to us to inspect the product and the packaging so that he could give us the shipping address.
I explained to him that we had been given the shipping address by the buyer and that it had been shipped FOUR months before! He said that this was a problem! But we persevered and each month sent them another statement. At this point the cost of processing this order was quickly becoming more then what the billing was! So, in complete frustration, we called the buyer and explained that it was shipped months ago, had been tracked so we knew it was received and simply did not want to keep processing this. So we had decided to write this bill off and that they were welcome to it at no charge. The purchasing agent got very upset at this and said that we could not change the price without putting the change in writing to the DOD. We told him that we were not wasting any further time or effort or money in collecting this debt. At this point a supervisor of some sort broke into our conversation, asked the buyer why it haven't been paid. Asked what we had done, asked the buyer to show him the paperwork and said that he found the problem. The invoice required that an alphabetical character had to be added to the end of the invoice number. If we would redo the invoice and add any alphabetical character to the end of the invoice number the bill would be paid immediately. I told them that we were not going to do anything further but between the two of them they could pick a letter and add it to the invoice they already had. Otherwise they could keep what they have at no charge.
Apparently they added the letter themselves and we got paid after half a year.
Good all Government regulations.

When we first went on GSA we put Kaiser and Linhof copy stands on the list. The GSA did not gave a specific category for copy stands do they called and asked me if they could include them under tripods. That led to a lot of additional paperwork and discussions when I said no.

[HMG]

Sal, perhaps you can understand this...

If B&H puts an ORM-D label on a box, UPS is required by law to not ship that package by air.

So the options would appear to be ground or deep-water freighter.
Yes/no?

- Leigh

Leigh, perhaps you can understand this...

If B&H puts an ORM-D label on a box, that package cannot ship through any of the tunnels in/out of NYC and Brooklyn, nor on any of the lower decks of bridges between Manhattan or Brooklyn. Which, if I understand the regs correctly, means one ORM-D box in a UPS with (say) 200 digicam boxes will prevent what might be the most expedient route out of that congested area.

I don't know that this is the reason. But we are all acting like we know all the issues B&H has to deal with on this issue. And I don't think any of us do. But we expect B&H to answer our detailed questions when I don't know any company that would answer those questions outside of a courtroom. The answers will just generate a bunch of other questions and complaints from the amateur peanut gallery.

You know, there's an old (and somewhat sexist) consultant joke that goes like this: A consultant is a guy who knows 101 ways to make love, but doesn't have a woman. That's us. We all pretend to know all the issues and cost structure B&H has to deal with but we don't. We're telling B&H how to manage their operation when we've done nothing comparable.

And this hazmat stuff can be complex. As noted, certain materials may be permitted on the upper deck of bridges but not the lower deck. I believe it applies to all ORM-D, even though there are different types of materials (say corrosives vs. ammunition) in that classification. And while "limited quantities" (that's the term used) of a material may always have been allowed, what constitutes a "limited quantity" can change. Hazmat regs for shipping to Canada impose additional hoops to jump through. A given chemical might require one type of label at one dilution but another at a different dilution.

I looked - UPS updated their hazmat chemical table for ground and air 9 times in the last 2 years. So much for the UPS comment reported somewhere in this thread that changes come infrequently. And not only do much (and maybe most) of B&H orders go by air, but the decision (ground vs. air) might be made by UPS.

Of course, B&H could restrict all packages with ORM-d material to ground and separate those out, or find some other way. It's definitely possible, but does it fit their business model and cost structure? You may know - I don't. Freestyle, for example, operates differently in their shipping policy. A $50 order from B&H ships free and gets to me (in MN) in 2 days. That same order from Freestyle costs me $7 and gets here in 5 days (though if I go a penny over $50, shipping is $9). Should I accuse Freestyle of gouging me on shipping? No, they have a business model that they apply and I can choose whether it fits my needs.

It's fair to (respectfully) complain. It's fair to point out inconsistencies in their shipping policy. But to compare their shipping policies with companies in LA, Montana, and even New Jersey - without knowing the logistics constraints imposed by location - is not useful.

The snow (a hazardous material in the quantities we sometimes get) has stopped; time to crank up the snowblower.

[faberryman]

Leigh, perhaps you can understand this...

If B&H puts an ORM-D label on a box, that package cannot ship through any of the tunnels in/out of NYC and Brooklyn, nor on any of the lower decks of bridges between Manhattan or Brooklyn. Which, if I understand the regs correctly, means one ORM-D box in a UPS with (say) 200 digicam boxes will prevent what might be the most expedient route out of that congested area.

So how do they get it from their warehouses in Brooklyn to their store in Manhattan for customer pickup?

[Bob Salomon]

So how do they get it from their warehouses in Brooklyn to their store in Manhattan for customer pickup?

There are bridges between Brooklyn and Manhattan. Maybe you have seen the Brooklyn Bridge?

[Leigh]

Leigh, perhaps you can understand this...

If B&H puts an ORM-D label on a box, that package cannot ship through any of the tunnels in/out of NYC and Brooklyn, nor on any of the lower decks of bridges between Manhattan or Brooklyn.
So, anonymous...

How has this situation changed in the last 30 days? That's the subject of this thread.

I've requested a specific reference to a gov't reg or shipper policy statement, but have received none.

- Leigh

[faberryman]

There are bridges between Brooklyn and Manhattan. Maybe you have seen the Brooklyn Bridge?

Did you read HMG's post which I quoted in my response?

[HMG]

So how do they get it from their warehouses in Brooklyn to their store in Manhattan for customer pickup?

I answered this question (from you I believe) earlier here or on the similar thread on apug. So I'll try to be more explicit.

Inbound shipments for a particular commodity tend to be relatively large quantities but few shipments. I.E. Say 50 cases of 1L HC-110 with 12 bottles to the case in a single shipment that could be routed over the few legal bridges. So 1 truck to route 600 bottles from Brooklyn to Manhattan (keep in mind, not all routes between Brooklyn and Manhattan are prohibited, just most of them). Further, you have much more control over your internal shipments in terms of timing.

But outbound shipments for a particular commodity tend to be relatively small quantities but many shipments. So assume an average of 1.5 bottles of HC-110 per order - that equates to 400 orders to route. Let's also assume 5 of these boxes with HC-110 in every outbound truck. That would equate to 80 trucks to route outbound for the same quantity of HC-110. (I don't know for a fact that these assumptions are correct, but I think they're reasonable. You can plug your own numbers in.)

So much easier to manage inbound than outbound.

[faberryman]

I answered this question (from you I believe) earlier here or on the similar thread on apug. So I'll try to be more explicit.

Inbound shipments for a particular commodity tend to be relatively large quantities but few shipments. I.E. Say 50 cases of 1L HC-110 with 12 bottles to the case in a single shipment that could be routed over the few legal bridges. So 1 truck to route 600 bottles from Brooklyn to Manhattan (keep in mind, not all routes between Brooklyn and Manhattan are prohibited, just most of them). Further, you have much more control over your internal shipments in terms of timing.

But outbound shipments for a particular commodity tend to be relatively small quantities but many shipments. So assume an average of 1.5 bottles of HC-110 per order - that equates to 400 orders to route. Let's also assume 5 of these boxes with HC-110 in every outbound truck. That would equate to 80 trucks to route outbound for the same quantity of HC-110. (I don't know for a fact that these assumptions are correct, but I think they're reasonable. You can plug your own numbers in.)

So much easier to manage inbound than outbound.

It was reported earlier in this tread by someone who has actually visited B&H's Manhattan store recently that in the darkroom area the shelves are bare, so I think it is fair to assume to they don't have 50 cases of HC-110 in the basement and none on the shelves. Besides, as I understand it, they ship from one of two warehouses they have in Brooklyn, not their Manhattan store.

[HMG]

It was reported earlier in this tread by someone who has actually visited B&H's Manhattan store recently that in the darkroom area the shelves are bare, so I think it is fair to assume to they don't have 50 cases of HC-110 in the basement and none on the shelves. Besides, as I understand it, they ship from one of two warehouses they have in Brooklyn, not their Manhattan store.

Well, you asked the question "So how do they get it from their warehouses in Brooklyn to their store in Manhattan for customer pickup?", so I answered it.

I think you're correct about shipping from Brooklyn; but that probably involves trucks from Brooklyn to Newark. Take a look at a map; it might help.

[HMG]

So, anonymous...

How has this situation changed in the last 30 days? That's the subject of this thread.

I've requested a specific reference to a gov't reg or shipper policy statement, but have received none.

- Leigh

The subject is their change in shipping policy, not necessarily a change in regulations in the last 30 days. It's not at all uncommon for a company to review its practices and decide that something they were doing is (and was) unwise. Or react/overreact to an incident involving another company. These thing happen; sometimes they make sense and sometimes they don't.

As to your veiled ad hominid attack ("so anonymous"), I use my initials and you use your first name only. Is there really that much difference in anonymity?

[Leigh]

I use my initials and you use your first name only. Is there really that much difference in anonymity?
Yes.

There's a big difference between saying "Hello, Leigh" and "Hello ???"

It's called being polite.

- Leigh

[Doremus Scudder]

How about "Hello HMG"?

I don't think it's impolite to address someone on a forum by their forum handle, nor impolite to use one. Many people use nicknames, handles or initials and I have no problem using them as stand-ins for actual names.

I do, however, prefer to use my full name for fora and find that those who do tend to be less inclined to flame or otherwise be aggressive toward other forum members. The bit of anonymity provided by handles often results in people feeling a bit more unbridled.

BTW, I'm sorry B&H doesn't want to ship chemicals anymore and hope they reconsider. Hopefully there will be enough of a response here to convince them to rethink their policy. I'll keep my opinion about their apparent obfuscation to myself.

Best,

Doremus

[LotusEsp]

I'm curious if I decide to take a trip to NYC, if I can pick up C-41 chemicals from B&H and drive back over the border to Canada without too many problems at customs.

(not that I fancy driving to NYC anytime soon, as Sean Bean would say: "Winter is coming")

[Bob Salomon]

Well, you asked the question "So how do they get it from their warehouses in Brooklyn to their store in Manhattan for customer pickup?", so I answered it.

I think you're correct about shipping from Brooklyn; but that probably involves trucks from Brooklyn to Newark. Take a look at a map; it might help.

What does Newark have to do with this? And to get to Newark is easy from Brooklyn with a truck.

[henryp]

Let's try this again. It seems likely that, as part of its agreement with UPS which enables such deep discounts the merchant is able to offer free expedited shipping on orders over $49, B&H gives up the right to specify the exact mode of transportation UPS employs for any given order. In other words, UPS makes the determination of how to route parcels handed it by B&H.

In that scenario, B&H doesn't tender a box to UPS as a "Ground" shipment. It simply enters a parcel's information as "expedited" under its contract and UPS' software generates the label B&H then affixes to the box. Can any of the vociferous complainers grasp this concept?

T H A N K Y O U ! ! !


I'm not surprised at all. Henry has stoically suffered the wrath of those who blindly attack while continuing to deal with individual customers via private communications in a professional, effective manner.
Aahhh. Stoically. Here's a little true story. Once upon a time I was offered a computer microphone and a talk-to-type program because I had a little carpal tunnel issue. When I declined I was asked why. I replied that from time to time while I was stoically typing (hopefully) courteous, polite, reasonable replies I was mumbling stuff under my breath that would have made Hannibal Lecter duck and run. Stoically indeed. :-)

If B&H puts an ORM-D label on a box, that package cannot ship through any of the tunnels in/out of NYC and Brooklyn, nor on any of the lower decks of bridges between Manhattan or Brooklyn. Which, if I understand the regs correctly, means one ORM-D box in a UPS with (say) 200 digicam boxes will prevent what might be the most expedient route out of that congested area.

I don't know that this is the reason. But we are all acting like we know all the issues B&H has to deal with on this issue. And I don't think any of us do. But we expect B&H to answer our detailed questions when I don't know any company that would answer those questions outside of a courtroom. The answers will just generate a bunch of other questions and complaints from the amateur peanut gallery.
Thank you, too.

[faberryman]

So it is not governmental regulations that prevent you from shipping darkroom chemicals, it is the terms of your contract with UPS? And the terms of your contract with UPS allowed you to ship darkroom chemicals for decades prior to 11/22/2016, prevented you from shipping chemicals beginning 11/22/2016, and then after about a week again allowed to ship many (but not all) darkroom chemicals again. Seriously, why don't you just come clean and put this public relations mess behind you. Your continuing obsfucation is seriously damaging your reputation.

[henryp]

I'll merely recap what I just stated on the same subject over on APUG, since I work for analogous type of business, albeit only two more weeks after forty years here. And what I said is that 99% of the complaints come from 1% of the customers, who probably don't contribute even .01% of the sales anyway. So it works both ways.

PERSONAL OBSERVATION: Several years ago an article in the Harvard Business Review made a strong argument that the bottom 10% of your clients were disproportionately expensive and so unprofitable to service and should be dropped. I cannot confirm the values but I think every retailer has customers he secretly wishes would shop at the competitor's once in a while.

Company's Amazing Reply to a Raging Customer (http://www.adweek.com/adfreak/fans-and-orders-pouring-bottle-maker-who-stood-angry-customer-facebook-154499)

[henryp]

It was reported earlier in this tread by someone who has actually visited B&H's Manhattan store recently that in the darkroom area the shelves are bare, so I think it is fair to assume to they don't have 50 cases of HC-110 in the basement...
Not 50 cases perhaps, but we have plenty. Store shelve contents are updated periodically based on availability and demand. In fact overall more than half the items we sell are not on display in our store.

[faberryman]

PERSONAL OBSERVATION: Several years ago an article in the Harvard Business Review made a strong argument that the bottom 10% of your clients were disproportionately expensive and so unprofitable to service and should be dropped. I cannot confirm the values but I think every retailer has customers he secretly wishes would shop at the competitor's once in a while.

As has been suggested by many posters here, I suspect customers ordering film, paper, chemicals, and other analog photography items are among the bottom 10% of your clients. It appears that your secret wish is coming true.

By the way, you do have a good return policy. You have shipped me a tripod head I ordered - twice. In each case they came UPS Ground, were defective, and you issued a prepaid UPS Ground shipping label to effectuate the return.

[henryp]

As has been suggested by many posters here, I suspect customers ordering film, paper, chemicals, and other analog photography items are among the bottom 10% of your clients. It appears that your secret wish is coming true.
You misunderstood me. I am sorry if I was obscure. A customer who orders ten rolls of Tri-X and one envelope of developer per year is not among the bottom 10%. The customer who orders ten rolls of Tri-X and one envelope of developer per year and then sends a dozen emails, telephones 7 times and posts complaints in Twitter and Yelp because we didn't drop everything and ship his order immediately upon receiving it is something else altogether.

Some customers, frequent or rare, are problem-free; others, frequent or rare, make themselves so expensive to service it is impossible to make a profit from the relationship. This is by no means exclusive to B&H or to the camera/photo industry in general. My brother wholesales high-end giftware and he has stories from his customers that easily equal my own.

Similarly I've found there are people in various forums who are easy to engage with, whether we agree or disagree, and others so argumentative that I begin to overlook their comments and questions. YMMV

[LotusEsp]

I wish this thread would get back to us finding solutions for getting chemistry if you're unable to walk into B&H personally.

Its very disappointing to be able to buy starter but not the replenisher, for example :(

[Sal Santamaura]

...Several years ago an article in the Harvard Business Review made a strong argument that the bottom 10% of your clients were disproportionately expensive and so unprofitable to service and should be dropped...In 1969, at the age of 16, while a high school student, I was hired in my first job by a New York department store. The position was 'cashier.' Given that my aptitude and attitude exceeded those of most in the job classification, management soon began moving me around the store to many different departments, including Customer Service. Next they added the duty of training new employees. It was an excellent way (part time during school terms and full time on winter/summer breaks) to earn money for the duration of high school and most of college.

After spending time dealing with irate people trying to return things they'd used and abused, I concluded that an old expression needed updating. My variation:


"The Customer is Always Right (Except When They're Wrong)"

For some reason, I wasn't allowed to post that as a sign in the Customer Service department. :)

[faberryman]

You misunderstood me. I am sorry if I was obscure. A customer who orders ten rolls of Tri-X and one envelope of developer per year is not among the bottom 10%. The customer who orders ten rolls of Tri-X and one envelope of developer per year and then sends a dozen emails, telephones 7 times and posts complaints in Twitter and Yelp because we didn't drop everything and ship his order immediately upon receiving it is something else altogether.

Some customers, frequent or rare, are problem-free; others, frequent or rare, make themselves so expensive to service it is impossible to make a profit from the relationship. This is by no means exclusive to B&H or to the camera/photo industry in general. My brother wholesales high-end giftware and he has stories from his customers that easily equal my own.

Similarly I've found there are people in various forums who are easy to engage with, whether we agree or disagree, and others so argumentative that I begin to overlook their comments and questions. YMMV

Then you misread Robert Kaplan's article in the Harvard Business Review, which was based on the premise of rationalizing SKUs so as to eliminate unprofitable items and the customers who purchase them, which were a drag on the company's bottom line.

https://hbr.org/2012/04/when-to-drop-an-unprofitable-customer

Perhaps not the best article for you to cite under the present circumstances, but it does provide insight into your thinking.

[Bob Salomon]

In 1969, at the age of 16, while a high school student, I was hired in my first job by a New York department store. The position was 'cashier.' Given that my aptitude and attitude exceeded those of most in the job classification, management soon began moving me around the store to many different departments, including Customer Service. Next they added the duty of training new employees. It was an excellent way (part time during school terms and full time on winter/summer breaks) to earn money for the duration of high school and most of college.

After spending time dealing with irate people trying to return things they'd used and abused, I concluded that an old expression needed updating. My variation:


"The Customer is Always Right (Except When They're Wrong)"

For some reason, I wasn't allowed to post that as a sign in the Customer Service department. :)

I had a very similar background with Caldor's when they only had three stores in Port Chester and in lower CT. They had a no questions asked return policy. There was one customer that bought a 50' garden hose each spring along with a set of male and female hose connectors. Each fall he would return two 25' long garden hoses with his receipt for a 50' hose and a pair of connectors. And each fall we gave him a refund in full. Seems like he was using us as his winter hose storage facility!

[HMG]

I had a very similar background with Caldor's when they only had three stores in Port Chester and in lower CT. They had a no questions asked return policy. There was one customer that bought a 50' garden hose each spring along with a set of male and female hose connectors. Each fall he would return two 25' long garden hoses with his receipt for a 50' hose and a pair of connectors. And each fall we gave him a refund in full. Seems like he was using us as his winter hose storage facility!

Interestingly, LL Bean has a bit of difficulty staffing their returns department. Their return policy is so liberal that, after a short while, staff get upset with the games some customers play. Apparently they begin to take it personally when a customer returns an 18 year old, well worn shirt because it has a hole in the elbow.

[Drew Wiley]

Henry must have a lot more patience than me. I know thousands of customers on a first name basis, and quite a few of them have become lifelong personal friends. Then there are those few.... But at the moment, I'm opening two boxes which just arrived from B&H precisely on time, and am totally unrepentant about spending money with them. I would have spent a lot more were it not for the fact I'm starting an expensive remodel next month.

[Duolab123]

you misunderstood me. I am sorry if i was obscure. A customer who orders ten rolls of tri-x and one envelope of developer per year is not among the bottom 10%. The customer who orders ten rolls of tri-x and one envelope of developer per year and then sends a dozen emails, telephones 7 times and posts complaints in twitter and yelp because we didn't drop everything and ship his order immediately upon receiving it is something else altogether.

Some customers, frequent or rare, are problem-free; others, frequent or rare, make themselves so expensive to service it is impossible to make a profit from the relationship. This is by no means exclusive to b&h or to the camera/photo industry in general. My brother wholesales high-end giftware and he has stories from his customers that easily equal my own.

Similarly i've found there are people in various forums who are easy to engage with, whether we agree or disagree, and others so argumentative that i begin to overlook their comments and questions. Ymmv

high five!

[denverjims]

Aahhh. Stoically. Here's a little true story. Once upon a time I was offered a computer microphone and a talk-to-type program because I had a little carpal tunnel issue. When I declined I was asked why. I replied that from time to time while I was stoically typing (hopefully) courteous, polite, reasonable replies I was mumbling stuff under my breath that would have made Hannibal Lecter duck and run. Stoically indeed. :-)


HenryP,

A couple of truisms that might apply and have helped me (when I can remember them):

There are some people who always seem angry and continuously look for conflict. Walk away. The battle they are fighting isn't typically situational, it's within their nature and you can't possibly 'win'. - Unknown

Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig. - Robert Heinlein ;)

Regards, Jim

[faberryman]

Here is another truism that might apply and has helped me:

"Honesty is the best policy."

It would explain why B&H shipped darkroom chemicals for decades before 11/22/2016, stopped shipping chemicals on 11/22/2016 claiming repeatedly that governmental regulations arising out of the 1996 ValueJet crash prohibited it from doing so, and then resumed shipping many of those same chemicals a week later. Since, as B&H management spokesperson Henry Posner has twice stated "we don't overlook anything" (emphasis his), it's a real head scratcher.

[scm]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

[Drew Wiley]

Once again, how many of you have experience running a complex sales operation involving thousands of customers and a huge selection of inventory? I do. No
matter how ethical, hardworking, and experienced you are, you simply cannot be everything to everyone; and things do go wrong. It's called Murphy's Law. I've
had the rug pulled out from under me by manufacturers themselves so many times that it hurts. And as for people at the top, they're not God; they can't know
every detail of every department or specific product. The business I currently work for, and from which I shall retire in exactly one week after forty years, is itself 75 years old now. I've seen many competitors come and go, many manufacturers go bust for "I told you so" reasons. But long ago I helped tailor product selection and service to a specific kind of clientele who mean business themselves. I have nothing against tire-kickers personally, but just can't afford their distraction from those who spend real money. Any successful business needs to know who their real clientele are. But if you think you can do a better job, go
ahead, try. It ain't that easy.

[Kirk Gittings]

And it doesn't have to be a big business either. I pride myself on long term relationships-some lasting 30 years. But sometimes things happen no matter how diligent I am about planning and prep and in the end it's on me, period.

[denverjims]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png


FOFL !!!! ;) ;) ;)

Glad to see another Munroe fan out there! I'm sure he would appreciate the context...

[denverjims]

And it doesn't have to be a big business either. I pride myself on long term relationships-some lasting 30 years. But sometimes things happen no matter how diligent I am about planning and prep and in the end it's on me, period.

To err is human, to forgive... apparently, not so much.

[Sal Santamaura]

If anyone gave up on B&H for darkroom chemicals, it might be worthwhile to revisit that decision. According to Henry Posner today, the company "...redoubled our effort to get more darkroom products added to the "okay to ship" roster."

Many of the items, both liquid and powder, that had been moved to 'store pickup only' status are again eligible for shipping.

[chassis]

Yet more good news about the film industry. Additional examples:

Ferrania starting production, ADOX building a new factory, Kodak bringing back Ektachrome, small film-oriented startups of various types (Cinestill, Stearman Press), overall increase in film sales.

[denverjims]

If anyone gave up on B&H for darkroom chemicals, it might be worthwhile to revisit that decision. According to Henry Posner today, the company "...redoubled our effort to get more darkroom products added to the "okay to ship" roster."

Many of the items, both liquid and powder, that had been moved to 'store pickup only' status are again eligible for shipping.

Yes, Sal, you are correct. I just had them ship some Ilford chemistry which had been on the "Pickup Only" list before. They really seem to be trying to keep our business.
:) :) :)
Thanks, Henry and B&H!

[LotusEsp]

If anyone gave up on B&H for darkroom chemicals, it might be worthwhile to revisit that decision. According to Henry Posner today, the company "...redoubled our effort to get more darkroom products added to the "okay to ship" roster."

Many of the items, both liquid and powder, that had been moved to 'store pickup only' status are again eligible for shipping.

Good news if we're going in the right direction - alas still no availability on the core chemicals though: i.e. Kodak flexicolor developer & bleach replenishers etc

[chassis]

Flexicolor LORR developer replenisher is available at Unique Photo. Straight (green) bleach also available there.

[Serge S]

Thanks for the heads up! Great news. I can get DDX again:)


If anyone gave up on B&H for darkroom chemicals, it might be worthwhile to revisit that decision. According to Henry Posner today, the company "...redoubled our effort to get more darkroom products added to the "okay to ship" roster."

Many of the items, both liquid and powder, that had been moved to 'store pickup only' status are again eligible for shipping.

[faberryman]

Many of the items, both liquid and powder, that had been moved to 'store pickup only' status are again eligible for shipping.
To be clear, they were always eligible for shipping under federal regulations and shipping company rules. B&H did not want to hassle with them any more and made up that story in order to dupe its customers and deflect criticism for its decision. B&H has rethought its position, and has gone back to doing what they had been doing for years before 11/23/2016, undoubtedly in part because they were called out for their mendacity.

[LotusEsp]

Flexicolor LORR developer replenisher is available at Unique Photo. Straight (green) bleach also available there.

yeah, unfortunately the developer is $13.99 but the shipping is $74, plus: "May require additional shipping fees after order is placed."

[Sal Santamaura]

To be clear, they were always eligible for shipping under federal regulations and shipping company rules. B&H did not want to hassle with them any more and made up that story in order to dupe its customers and deflect criticism for its decision. B&H has rethought its position, and has gone back to doing what they had been doing for years before 11/23/2016, undoubtedly in part because they were called out for their mendacity.Why the B&H hatred? Why are you posting unprovable accusations on multiple forums? What do you have to gain by attacking and potentially harming B&H? What good can come from campaigning to reduce the availability of analog photography products, not just in the U.S., but around the world?

[Wayne]

Why the B&H hatred? Why are you posting unprovable accusations on multiple forums? What do you have to gain by attacking and potentially harming B&H? What good can come from campaigning to reduce the availability of analog photography products, not just in the U.S., but around the world?

You both have points. It's pointless and extremely annoying to continue flogging B&H ad nauseum but OTOH their stated reasoning was obviously flawed if not fictitious and that question of integrity matters to some people. Points well taken, moving along now I hope....

[Sal Santamaura]

...B&H...their stated reasoning was obviously flawed if not fictitious...Repeated unprovable accusations. Evidence please. Repeating the charges doesn't count as evidence.


...moving along now I hope...Your perpetuating things makes moving along impossible.

[MAubrey]

Repeated unprovable accusations. Evidence please.
How are they not provable?

You literally just need to quote their reasons.

[Sal Santamaura]

Repeated unprovable accusations. Evidence please...


How are they not provable?

You literally just need to quote their reasons.Reacting rather than thoroughly evaluating possibilities is an excellent way to make unprovable accusations, such as "B&H lied."

First, read post #245 in this thread:


http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?135047-B-amp-H-No-Longer-Shipping-Chemistry&p=1365716&viewfull=1#post1365716


Then read how Henry Posner reacted to it in the first part of post #270:


http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?135047-B-amp-H-No-Longer-Shipping-Chemistry&p=1365917&viewfull=1#post1365917


Finally, consider that B&H might have, since then, further negotiated its agreement(s) with shipping carriers and/or revised its internal procedures/training so that many darkroom chemicals could once again be shipped.

Can anyone prove B&H lied? No. Unless there's evidence, "quoting reasons" merely repeats an unprovable accusation. Not good.

[MAubrey]

Reacting rather than thoroughly evaluating possibilities is an excellent way to make unprovable accusations, such as "B&H lied."

First, read post #245 in this thread:


http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?135047-B-amp-H-No-Longer-Shipping-Chemistry&p=1365716&viewfull=1#post1365716


Then read how Henry Posner reacted to it in the first part of post #270:


http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?135047-B-amp-H-No-Longer-Shipping-Chemistry&p=1365917&viewfull=1#post1365917


Finally, consider that B&H might have, since then, further negotiated its agreement(s) with shipping carriers and/or revised its internal procedures/training so that many darkroom chemicals could once again be shipped.

Can anyone prove B&H lied? No. Unless there's evidence, "quoting reasons" merely repeats an unprovable accusation. Not good.

The post I'm discussing are all after #290, so that's not relevant.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the rest. Cheers!

[Sal Santamaura]

How are they not provable?

You literally just need to quote their reasons.


The post I'm discussing are all after #290...The only posts after #290 are ones that levy accusations. Ignoring posts that preceed it renders reasonable consideration of possibilities impossible.


...We'll have to agree to disagree on the rest...No one has to "agree to disagree." Disagreement is a fact whether involved parties accept it or not.

After serving on a number of criminal trial juries, as well as observing participant behavior on several Internet forums over the years, I'm very glad that I don't even present the appearance of engaging in anything illegal. The willingness to "convict" without credible evidence is really scary.

[denverjims]

... Points well taken, moving along now I hope....

This is the last word!
No. THIS is the last word!
No. This is the LAST word!
No. This is REALLY the LAST word!
No. This is ABSOLUTELY the LAST word!
.
.
.

:)

(Sorry, couldn't help myself. I know this is serious to some folks ...but really?)

[esearing]

What irked me today was that Ethol LPD in liquid form is shipped (for free) but the power form is pick up only. Had to order from their NY competitor which also got the rest of my order for Film, Papers, and some other accessories.