Printing color 4x5 negatives: options?

[cp_photo]

Hello,

Excuse my ignorance but I'd like some ideas about color printing of C-41 negatives now that I have some of my first large format images back from being processed.

It seems like optical printing color negatives is very rare these days, which comes as a surprise to me having last had any kind of print made for me 20+ years ago.

If I understand correctly, color negative film (such as the Kodak Ektar 100 I shot recently with my new 4x5 camera) is almost invariably scanned and digitally printed by 95% of photo labs/stores that offer color prints from 4x5 negs. Are there any notable hold outs in this regard?

Any suggestions about the cheapest way to have prints of various sizes made from 4x5 color negatives, including businesses you have used that seem reasonably priced?

I think I will try to find a 4x5 color enlarger to learn to do it myself. Are there any good models to look for on the used market? I'd prefer something compact.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts. Sincerely, Chris

[Bob Salomon]

If you go over to Looking Glass Photo in Berkeley you can use their rental darkroom to learn how to make your own prints. It isn't difficult.

[cp_photo]

If you go over to Looking Glass Photo in Berkeley you can use their rental darkroom to learn how to make your own prints. It isn't difficult.

Unfortunately Looking Glass does not have _color_ darkroom facilities. I understand there is a public darkroom in SF that has color enlargers but I haven't found the details of it yet.

I was there today, and to produce a 5x7 print from my 4x5 negative they charge $10 to scan it, $8 for the digital print, and $5 to receive the scan on a CD. That ads up quick!

[Dan O'Farrell]

rHi there. Glad to see that you have come into the REAL darkroom group.
Printing from a negative, whether B&W or colour, is not hard, but they are different.
Just about any 4X5 enlarger will serve you very well, but if you can find an Omega D, or a Beseler 45,
with a dichroic head, you'll be ahead of the game in either colour or B&W.

RA-4 chemistry is what you need, and I'm sure it will be available in California.
Paper for colour printing, with RA-4 process, may be available locally, but certainly is on the NET.

Do your research on this forum, and on others; Don't dash ahead and spend, before you learn.

Others will comment and help, but you're just beginning, and it's a fun ride if you take your time.

[LabRat]

You will find it much easier to learn color printing using a processor, as most of the printing run session will be making test strips, so the time spent is mostly making these, so just sticking them in a processor, and doing everything else while waiting helps...

Note that the choices for RA-4 paper have narrowed, and the last Fuji paper is a combination of their portrait (softer) and commercial (punchy color) papers, but a little lacking in both, and is a little more sensitive to chem condition in the machine...

+1 on finding a facility that is running a well maintained processor that you can print yourself there, but later you can process in tubes once you get the hang of balancing color/exposure, but by that time you find that place, you will find the tube method slow & fussy...

Good Luck!!!

Steve K

[Ted R]

LPL enlargers are available used in 4x5 format with color heads (dichroic) one of the best sources of information is the website of KHB Photographic in Canada http://store.khbphotografix.com/

[Drew Wiley]

RA4 printing is quite easy and affordable with a bit of practice. Don't get scared away. You need an enlarger with a colorhead, good temperature control for your bottles, decent ventilation, and some kind of processor. If somebody wants to set up a 20" roller-transport machine, I'd love to get rid of one for a fair price. I just use ordinary drums, though some of them are rather big. Like anything else in the darkroom, you can take things to whatever quality level you wish. All kinds of advanced printing techniques are hypothetically available, and it's no big deal to match or even beat the hell out of typical digital prints. Just a different workflow, and stinkier. Color negative films and papers are better than ever. What is in short supply is relevant information. Ektar can be a bit more finicky to print than most color neg films, but the rewards can also be high if you understand this film. And you need good fresh chemisty. Freestyle sells both Kodak ra/rt kits and their own identical Arista-branded kits. Or Looking Glass can order in the Kodak kits and Fuji paper.

[Larry the Sailor]

What is in short supply is relevant information

Ain't that the truth.
I'm a reasonably competent "hobby grade" B&W darkroom printer.
I'm still looking for a "RA4 Printing for Morons".
I've got the equipment to print 35mm to 4X5 up to 16X20, Beseler 45 w/Dichro head, Unicolor motor base, tubes and open trays sized from 5X7 to 16X20.
The one thing I don't have is "A Freaking Clue" about doing RA4.
:)

[Drew Wiley]

Mixing instructions come with the chemistry kits. I prefer to mix only enough of developer and blix (combined bleach and fix) for a daily session. You've got a prewet in the drum (plain water), then actual development, then an ordinary acetic acid stop bath, then blix, followed by final wash. Then you choose the best
combination of time and temperature which allows you complete repeatability, including the time involved filling and draining the drum. I standardize on two minutes for developer and blix each, at 83F. Temperatures must be kept within fairly tight tolerances, so you need a dependable water jacket for you chem tubes. Pre-wet and stop aren't as fussy. Final wash is up to you. I like to rinse several times in a drum, then tray rinse little while longer. You'll find a lot of misinformation on the web about "digital only" papers. But any cut-sheet sizes of Fuji or private label paper you'll encounter in stock at popoular suppliers like B&H or Freestyle should work fine in your darkroom. I use various Fuji Crystal Archive papers. Works fine with both Kodak and Arista chemistry. You do need to choose the contrast level and surface sheen of your paper. This might take some experimentation with your preferred film. Then finally, you'll need to fiddle with your colorhead in order to get a correct color balance setting. This works best if you make a precisely color-balanced master negative of something like
a MacBeath Color Checker chart. Get to first base first, before you try miscellaneous negatives. You can expose simple test strips for time, just like in black and
white printing, and at the same time, start homing in on the color balance. You'll have to rebalance a bit with each new paper batch, but most of the hard work
needs to be done first. The test strips can be dried quickly with a hair dryer for evaluation. If your chemistry is good, basic color balancing can be done in a day.
Fine-tuning thereafter goes much more quickly. Just try to match your negs to the best paper. With experience, you can learn all kinds of tricks thereafter. In
certain ways color neg printing is even easier and more affordable than black and white printing.

[Drew Wiley]

... And remember that you're working negative. If you want less magenta, you actually increase magenta on your colorhead; if you want less yellow, you actually
increase the yellow setting, etc. Dodging and burning are analogous to black and white negative printing.

[agregov]

I agree with others that color analog printing can be more straightforward than working in B&W. IMO the hardest thing to learn in analog color is seeing color casts and understanding how to remove them, as Drew described. It would be best to first learn in a classroom setting using a color processor. Learn to color correct and get around in total darkness of a color darkroom. Then you might even contrast the analog color workflow with a class on scanning color negs and printing with an inkjet. Then make the call if you want to build out a color darkroom.

The enlarger is the easy part in setting up a color darkroom. It's the print processing workflow that's the harder part. For example, you can use a Jobo to drum develop prints. They are very efficient with chemistry. A better option is a real paper processor like a Fujimoto CP-31. Then you need a paper dryer in order to do accurate color correction. It's possible to get sucked into a technical vortex quickly. It would be best to first see if you'll like color analog printing. In San Francisco, I'd hit Rayko to learn http://raykophotocenter.com/color-darkroom-printing

[agregov]

...oh, and Ektar is a major pain to color correct in the darkroom. Very small movements in the color pack on the enlarger can cause swings in your color casts that are tough to control. I would highly recommend starting with Portra to learn how to color correct (asa 160 or 400--400 will be warmer of the two). Then venture up to Ektar.

[bob carnie]

I have been following a thread on a forum about a K16 color processor that a dude is using , they are wonderful units for someone to use with a Chromega color enlarger, basically could be set up in a 5ft square room with door to block light. Its what I used when I first started.

Excellent system for a beginner and advanced printer, I also could recommend a Jobo system, but the Kodak system is really retro .

[EdSawyer]

I don't find Ektar any more difficult to color correct than any other film. I use a CP-31 and -51, and Beseler 45VXL with the 45A head. A set of the color-print viewing filters from Kodak or others is really helpful in learning what to look for in terms of judging prints for color correction. btw, the CP-31 and 51 have W/D units with built-in dryers so dry-to-dry time for a print is about 3-4 minutes or so, allowing a pretty quick feedback loop for corrections.

-Ed

[agregov]

Never heard of those old Kodak processors. Fascinating little units. I bet they'd still work great. Found this link with a bunch of details on how they work: http://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Colour_Darkroom/Early_Kodak_CameraFilm.html#anchor27a

[bob carnie]

Never heard of those old Kodak processors. Fascinating little units. I bet they'd still work great. Found this link with a bunch of details on how they work: http://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Colour_Darkroom/Early_Kodak_CameraFilm.html#anchor27a

There is a guy on APUG with a thread going which shows his setup, really a nice setup. I think if you could find one it would be a great addition for your workflow.

[SergeyT]

Try them : http://www.lightwavesimaging.com/
They can do both scan, edit and print digitally or make a darkroom print for you. Or at least were able to a couple of years back. See which one you like better and then possibly deside on using their services or printing on your own.

SergeyT

[rob4x5]

The cheapest and easiest way to process RA-4 prints is with trays. You can use a drum or processor but it isn't necessary. Kodak RA-RT Developer/Replenisher can be used at room temperature (68-75F) for two minutes and produces excellent results with Kodak Endura or Fuji CA II paper, followed by 2-2 1/2 minute bleach-fix. I found I don't need a stop bath when using trays, making the process actually shorter and easier than b&w.

[Wayne]

The cheapest and easiest way to process RA-4 prints is with trays. You can use a drum or processor but it isn't necessary. Kodak RA-RT Developer/Replenisher can be used at room temperature (68-75F) for two minutes and produces excellent results with Kodak Endura or Fuji CA II paper, followed by 2-2 1/2 minute bleach-fix. I found I don't need a stop bath when using trays, making the process actually shorter and easier than b&w.

Ditto. As long as you have good ventilation trays is the way to go unless you're doing high volume. I developed in drums for a few years and will never go back. Printing RA-4 is quite simple with some Print Viewing Filters, of course it takes practice but you can get "acceptable" results quite quickly. As for information, you can find all you need to know here

http://www.apug.org/forum/index.php?forums/color-film-paper-and-chemistry.86/

[jp]

The viewing filters are quiet handy at helping you estimate needed adjustments and I'd say they are not optional.
Color negative prints have traditionally been subject to fading and the permanence of archival injket is the contemporary solution to that. I understand the fuji stuff is better than average in regard to fading.
I did some color stuff in the 1990's but haven't in my current darkroom due to B&W and alt process being all I can handle (and I'm generally pleased with inkjet options for color)

[Jim Michael]

Being able to dial in accurate color will be important for fine tuning the color balance and repeatability, so a color meter or dichroic head that measures color will be a big help. We would usually hold C constant and make corrections with Y and M. Expect density to move approximately 1/2 the amount of your color correction in the opposite direction.

[sepiareverb]

This is a great book to get a clear overview of the process for printing color. I had not printed color in nearly twenty years and was up and running very quickly with the help of this book.

https://www.amazon.com/Color-Photography-Working-Henry-Horenstein/dp/0316373168

I did trays at room temperature, but you will want either extremely high ventilation or the correct respirator. I would finish printing with a slamming headache even with ventilation that was perfectly fine for sepia toning in B&W.

[Wayne]

Ditto. As long as you have good ventilation trays is the way to go unless you're doing high volume. I developed in drums for a few years and will never go back.

But its probably easiest and cleanest and driest to develop in daylight drums at first, or if you just aren't comfortable with tray work. Also you can use a very faint safelight at a safe distance from the trays, that gives off enough light so you can find the sink without falling into it. I tend to turn mine off once the paper is in the tray but others leave theirs on.

[cp_photo]

Thanks for the wealth of information shared here - I am taking notes and absorbing it.

[LabRat]

If you go with the tray route, try to find an old S/S Heath "Color Canoe" developing tray... It is a rounded bottom tray that holds a print, and floats over a water bath, and allows the tray to be easily rocked while floating (and uses very little chem)...

If you take the tube route, there were 4X5 mini tubes made for Cibachrome, that are handy for test strips, as they used very little chem...

Steve K