Differences in movements - S. Technika V vs Master Technika Classic ?

[Xipho]

Hello,

I often read in forums (here in Germany) that a Master does have more (larger) movements than a V?

I know the famous flap and that the lens tilt has more degrees (30 vs 15?) in the Master.

But are any other movements besides these also slightly larger in the Master than in the V? Or are all other parts (besides the leather) and the front tilt mechanism identical?


Thanks in advance from good old Linhof Country!

Harald (Owner of a V, a III/1 and two IIs)

[Bob Salomon]

The latest model, the Master Technika 3000 also has an extra drop position for the bed that allows it to drop 90° so it will not intrude on vertical pictures with 75 and wider lenses. The top flap gives all Master models extra rise with wide angle lenses. The extra drop position is available from a Linhof service centers for some older Master models.
There are also other differences, beyond movements that differ older models (including old Master Technikas). One obvious difference is on the bed, just behind the focusing knob. On later Master models there is a raised, rectangular, metal block. On older model Technikas that block had two holes to accept a bed mounted cable release that plugged into the bed. However, in the late 70s the manufacturer of that special cable release went out of business and that was the end of that feature. So later models had the holes filled in. Cameras made since the 70s have two turns of spring in the ground glass back arms. Earlier ones had one turn. This means that the width of the opening for the spring on the inside of the newer models are wider then the older models. However, since, at least 1980, the single turn spring is no longer available from the factory and that means that if someone breaks that single turn spring or its arm both arms have to be replaced with the two turn springs and arms.
Starting with the introduction of the Master Technika 2000 the locking knobs for the back are in a different location then on earlier Technikas. This was originally done to accommodate the IR rangefinder/viewfinder for the 2000 which filled the entire top of the camera. When that finder was recalled the knob placement did not change.

[Xipho]

Hello Bob,

thanks for the information.

the current manual of the master says back tilt angle 20 degrees,man old IV manual says 15 degrees. Do you know whta it is like with the V?

The IV manual says for etra shift you tilt lens and back max (each 15 degrees)with raised lens stand and you hav max shift...
How does this work with a master, if the back allowas 20 degrees? How do you guarantee parallel lens and film when doing this?

the lens tilt is 30 degrees in the master. is there a marked 15 degrees position or do you have to guess?

BTW, behind the focus wheel my V has this light brown plastic cable release holder. Was this normal with the V or an extra acessory?

[Bob Salomon]

Hello Bob,

thanks for the information.

the current manual of the master says back tilt angle 20 degrees,man old IV manual says 15 degrees. Do you know whta it is like with the V?

The IV manual says for etra shift you tilt lens and back max (each 15 degrees)with raised lens stand and you hav max shift...
How does this work with a master, if the back allowas 20 degrees? How do you guarantee parallel lens and film when doing this?

the lens tilt is 30 degrees in the master. is there a marked 15 degrees position or do you have to guess?

BTW, behind the focus wheel my V has this light brown plastic cable release holder. Was this normal with the V or an extra acessory?

TheV has less movement then the Master. There is no marked tilt position, other then the neutral click stop. The instructions for rising the standard and tilting front and back are the same.
That holder was discontinued when the maker of the cable release that fit it went out of business.

[Xipho]

Does the Master have new "Sticks" at the back, as Body housing (apart from the flap) and Back itself are equal to the IV or V body, as far as I see...?

[Bob Salomon]

Does the Master have new "Sticks" at the back, as Body housing (apart from the flap) and Back itself are equal to the IV or V body, as far as I see...?

No idea, that is a question for a service center.

[Len Middleton]

Does the Master have new "Sticks" at the back, as Body housing (apart from the flap) and Back itself are equal to the IV or V body, as far as I see...?

Are you asking about the four metal rods that can be adjusted and locked in place for rear tilt and swing?

[Corran]

Tangentially related - my Master has the 3-position bed, I assume at 0, 15, and 30 degrees. If I want to use the RF it can only be dropped to 15 degrees or else the cam bends/binds, right? If using the back tilt to "correct" the lens to parallel, there is no "stop" at 15 degrees - so it's impossible to get the lens parallel quickly or efficiently. Or am I missing something?

[Bob Salomon]

Tangentially related - my Master has the 3-position bed, I assume at 0, 15, and 30 degrees. If I want to use the RF it can only be dropped to 15 degrees or else the cam bends/binds, right? If using the back tilt to "correct" the lens to parallel, there is no "stop" at 15 degrees - so it's impossible to get the lens parallel quickly or efficiently. Or am I missing something?

The instruction book specifically states that when you drop the bed you must remove the cam first, then replace it after the bed is positioned where you want it. Not doing this will bend the cam. A Linhof cam should be flat, not bent. You can go to the Linhof web site, click on service and download the latest instruction book for free. It will also instruct you on the proper procedure for dropping the bed, tilting the front standard and back standard.
Basically, you drop the bed all the way, raise the lens to the top of the standard, tilt the standard all the way forward, tilt the back all the way so it is parallel to the front. Otherwise, tilt the bed and lens as far as you wantand use a level to align the front and back.

[Corran]

Bob - perhaps I was unclear. My point is, if I want to use the lens with the bed at 15 degrees, there is no "stop" to make the tilt exactly parallel to the back. This means, from what I can tell, that the Master can not use a RF-coupled lens at the 15 degree stop. As I just tested, the RF does work at 15 degrees, and yes I know about the cams. At the 30 degree tilt, where the back tilt stops, the RF doesn't couple with the cam.

[Bob Salomon]

You drop the bed to the first stop, raise the front standard all the way, place a small level against the front standard and tilt the standard until the level is centered, place the same level against the ground glass and tilt it till the bubble is also centered. This assumes that you started with a level camera.

[Corran]

Well that's unfortunate.

If I'm shooting handheld with the RF I'm not on a tripod and therefore can't really do such an involved leveling procedure. This is why I kept my Tech IV, as it works just fine at the 15 degree stop since it only tilts back that much.

Kind of a design flaw on the Master, IMO.

[Bob Salomon]

Well that's unfortunate.

If I'm shooting handheld with the RF I'm not on a tripod and therefore can't really do such an involved leveling procedure. This is why I kept my Tech IV, as it works just fine at the 15 degree stop since it only tilts back that much.

Kind of a design flaw on the Master, IMO.

http://linhof.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/MasterTechnika_classic_2000_e.pdf

Read page 13.

[Corran]

And?

This is not new/additional information. The point here is the Master can not accommodate focusing the lens with the rangefinder unless at the 15-degree drop position, which then requires a troublesome leveling procedure that is also not fool-proof. They should have put a click-stop on the 15 degree position, somehow.

[Bob Salomon]

And?

This is not new/additional information. The point here is the Master can not accommodate focusing the lens with the rangefinder unless at the 15-degree drop position, which then requires a troublesome leveling procedure that is also not fool-proof. They should have put a click-stop on the 15 degree position, somehow.

Go to the specifications page of that instruction book. Probably around page 32. It specifies that the first drop bed is 15°.

[Corran]

Click stop on the lens tilt!

[Bob Salomon]

You know, I was the Product Manager for Linhof in the USA from 1979 to 2015 and in all those years of demonstrating, selling, working shows, etc. no one has asked for that until today, when I haven't been involved with Linhof for over a year. Why don't you communicate what you want directly to the factory? The link is on their web site.

[Corran]

The Technika IV only has rear tilt of 15 degrees - lining up with the first stop of the drop bed. Makes sense. Does the V have only 15 degree tilt back? If so, it was the Master that they changed to have the 30 degree rear tilt. Perhaps at the time, with the changing market and use of LF, it was not seen as necessary to have a system in place to use RF-coupled lenses at the 15-degree drop position, and indeed your experience with people asking about it would show that to be true. Perhaps using a lens at the 15 degree drop and RF coupled was not a common thing. The reason I wanted to do this was I finally got a cam for my 75mm f/4.5 Biogon. It appears I can only use it on my IV with the coupled RF. It kind of works on the Master with the bed at 0 degrees but pushed in, but the infinity stop position at that point interferes with the 150mm lens infinity stop positions. C'est la vie.

[Bob Salomon]

It is quite easy to have a cam cut for a 75mm by the service center. They can also adjust your IV so a cam for a V or Master will also work on your IV properly.

[Xipho]

Hello Corran,

I have the V and its original manual:

Movements of the V: (Master in comparison)
floor 15/30 deg (same)
shift 55 mm up, +- 25 mm left/right (up same, L/r 40 mm)
lens tilt 15 deg (30 deg)
lens stand turn 15 degress (same)
back 15 degress to all sides (20 degrees)

btw the Master classic is 150g lighter than a V...


What I would think is easier with a IV/V and useful ist to get more shift than the 55mm.

You simply have to pull out the lower side of the back, getting 15 degrees at the end position, shift up 55 mm an tirn the lens 15 degrees downwards.. So you can get a total hift of approx 10 cm as I just measured, and with parallel lens and film at the definite end stops...

With a master, If a am not wrong, you can gain even more shift by 20/20 degrees, bit you have no stop or measure for a 20 degrees lens tilt...

[Bob Salomon]

Hello Corran,

I have the V and its original manual:

Movements of the V: (Master in comparison)
floor 15/30 deg (same)
shift 55 mm up, +- 25 mm left/right (up same, L/r 40 mm)
lens tilt 15 deg (30 deg)
lens stand turn 15 degress (same)
back 15 degress to all sides (20 degrees)

btw the Master classic is 150g lighter than a V...


What I would think is easier with a IV/V and useful ist to get more shift than the 55mm.

You simply have to pull out the lower side of the back, getting 15 degrees at the end position, shift up 55 mm an tirn the lens 15 degrees downwards.. So you can get a total hift of approx 10 cm as I just measured, and with parallel lens and film at the definite end stops...

With a master, If a am not wrong, you can gain even more shift by 20/20 degrees, bit you have no stop or measure for a 20 degrees lens tilt...

It is very easy to mark the rear for a repeatable tilt or swing. Set the camera up level, tilt the bed to your desired position (removing the cam before dropping the bed), tilt the lens to the same angle as the bed, as long as the camera was set up level you can make sure that the front is at the same angle by placing a small level against it a tilt till the bubble is centered. Now place that level against the gg. Tilt the back till the bubble is centered. Lock the rods in place. Now take a really good, fine line, permanent marking pen like the Kaiser CD marking pen. Make lines on the rods so you can quickly and easily reset the back to that same position. Kaiser makes the pens in red, black, green and blue so you could make marks of different colors for various desired angles. The Kaiser marker will not rub off and dries instantly and writes on any surface but, if needed, they can be erased with a good quality alcohol based eraser.

[Corran]

lens tilt 15 deg (30 deg)

That's what I figured. So when Linhof changed the Master to accommodate more tilt, they made quick and easy use of the drop bed with RF-coupled lenses impossible (key words: quick and easy. Using a bubble level to get the angle right is not quick, easy, or efficient). By the time it was introduced (early 1970s I believe) perhaps the use of the Technika handheld was waning and so maybe it didn't matter to anyone really. I know I'm crazy to be doing such handheld shooting.

I just took a few hours to check and re-calibrate all of my lenses to my cameras. My Master has stops/cams for a 15cm APO Lanthar, 150mm f/2.8 Xenotar, and 250mm f/5.6 Sonnar, while the Tech IV now is setup for my 75mm Biogon and a 90mm f/5.6 XL.