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OKAROB
11-Nov-2016, 16:27
I know this probably sounds redundant, however, I am just hoping to clarify just how many versions of the copal 3 shutter there are. Two my knowledge there is the copal 3 and copal 3s and the specifications for those are well documented. I was reading on another website that there might be another version that came along with the 210mm f4.5 Schneider Xenar. I am hoping that someone like Mr. Galli can confirm and provide the specifications.

I hoping to find out just how many different copal 3 shutters there are. I have bought several used lenses with copal 3 shutters, some working and not, and I seem to have three different versions and cannot swap the working with the broken. Fortunately I have been able to repair most of them.

I know there is the chrome ring and all black copal 3 shutters, I am interested in the physical differences among them. And no need to provide specifics for the standard copal 3 and 3s. Thanks for any assistance.

Robert

OKAROB
11-Nov-2016, 23:15
Ok, I got out my micrometers and measured my 3rd copal 3 varriant. This is the Copal 3 shutter from a Schneider 210mm f4.5 front thread 55.5mm, rear thread 55.5mm, mounting thread 60mm. I confirmed it is was not just bad measuring by trying to swap lens cells and mounting ring with a known lens with a copal 3s shutter. They are not inter-changeable because of the measurements posted above.

So be aware there are at least three Copal 3 Varriants. Is anyone aware of repurpose for this specific shutter listed above?

Thx Robert

c.d.ewen
11-Nov-2016, 23:20
Once upon a time, I had a chrome-faced shutter, marked Copal 3, that conformed to the Copal 3S specs. Check yours.

Charley

OKAROB
12-Nov-2016, 00:24
Charlie, thanks for your post. I did compare with my Copal 3s from a Fujinon 420mm L lens and they are not the same measurements. The Fujinon L 420mm shutter matched exactly with the Copal 3S specifications posted by SK Grimes. The Schneider 210mm f4.5 Xenar is just a tiny bit smaller.

If anyone else has another Copal 3 varriant please post your measurements and the lens from which it is used. I once read somewhere that all German lenses in a Copal 3 are Copal 3 shutters....well not exactly true.

Robert

Paul Ewins
12-Nov-2016, 16:27
The measurements you posted match a Compound 3, so I am guessing that your Xenar dates to the time when the production of Compound shutters ceased and they swapped over to the Copal 3. For the 240 Symmar, that had been in the Copal 2, Schneider used adapter rings to match the smaller cell thread to the shutter so check to see if there is any sign of one in the shutter you have.

OKAROB
13-Nov-2016, 20:26
This just keeps getting more interesting, I have a convertible 240mm Symmar and the front and rear element threads are both 45.75 mm. one of the Compur #2 varriants. But that could be another thread. Thanks for the post Paul.

Paul Ewins
14-Nov-2016, 00:57
The adapter rings are usually fairly firmly attached, so it isn't obvious that they are there. Sometimes they stick to the cell and other times they stick to the shutter but they are just screwed in place, no adhesive or anything to lock them in place. And of course I should have written Compur 2, not Copal 2. Check the serial number of your 210 Xenar, if it is around the 11,700,000 mark then it could be one of the lenses from that change over era.

Emmanuel BIGLER
14-Nov-2016, 01:34
Hi !

FWIW, here is a compilation of shutter dimensions, most of it from S.K. Grimes' web site.



All dimensions in millimeters
______________size #__________ 00__________0____________ 1________Compur-2______Copal-3s________ 3
1/retaining ring thread______ M25x0.5____M32.5x0.5____M39x0.75____M50x0.9______ M61.0x0.75____ M62.0x0.75
2/ring outer diameter__________26.1________34.6__________41.6______52.2_________ 64.0__________ 65.1
3/lensboard hole diameter______26.3________34.8__________41.8______52.5_________ 64.2__________ 65.3
4/font group mounting thread__ M22.9x0.5__ M29.5x0.5__ M40.0x0.75__M45.75x0.75__ M56.0x0.75____ M58.0x0.75
5/rear group mounting thread__ M22.9x0.5__ M29.5x0.5__ M36.0x0.75__M45.75x0.75__ M56.0x0.75____ M58.0x0.75
6/distance between group seats__16________20.0+-0.025__20.0+-0.025__26.75________28.6+-0.025____31.5


Lensboard thickness
All thicknesses in millimeters
__ Compur or Copal ; #0 :__ 1.5->4____#1 :__1.3 (Compur 1) or 1.5->3____#3 : 1.5->5
__ Prontor Pro____ ; #01S : 1.5->3____#1S : 1.5->3______________________#3 : 1.5->4
__ Copal Press____ ; #0__ : 1.5->3____#1__: 1.5->2

Luis-F-S
22-Nov-2016, 20:24
I thought I'd add some examples of my Copal 3 Shutters for the thread. The first is a fairly recent one in all Black.

157796

A slightly older version with the Silver ring:

157797

A Variant from a Fuji SF Lens. It has a heavier knurling than the one above, and a slightly different aperture lever, otherwise pretty similar:

157798

An older Silver with the non Linear Aperture Scale:

157799

Luis-F-S
22-Nov-2016, 20:28
A Silver ring version of the Copal 3S. Note that the center threaded ring is about 1 mm thicker than on the Copal 3, roughly double the thickness:

Copal 3S

157800

Copal 3

157801

There are older variations of the Copal 3 of course, but these are some of the ones you're more likely to see. L

OKAROB
10-Dec-2016, 23:23
AARGH!!!! I just saw an all black Copal 3s shutter on everyone's favorite auction website. I did not expect to see an all black 3s. So another varriant exists. So if you want a Copal 3 shutter, you had better ask the seller to carefully measure the front and rear thread sizes or you could end up with one of the varriants. Like me I have all of the varriants of the Copal 3 except for the all black 3s.

Robert