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View Full Version : Kodak Master View 8X10 & 5X7 GG WAS Made HOW?



Tin Can
4-Nov-2016, 12:46
Examining these 2 GG it's obvious they are not Ground Glass nor Etched Glass.

They seem to be a coating or emulsion, applied very accurately with Silk Screen? It stands above the glass.

The coating is delicate, with fine, clear glass format shapes, delineated. It can be scratched off. Somebody, not I, did that to the 5X7 on an edge. Annoying but inconsequential. Perhaps another curious person.

They are also the most translucent 'GG' I have seen. Way more translucent that a Satin Snow, Linhof, Horseman, Steve Hopf Ground Glass and anything else I have examined. I do notice Steve Hopf now offers 'Ultra Fine' but I have not seen one. Also better than my own fine grind GG.

Light transmission is much higher, but not formally tested, thus unproven. I hold them up to a 10 ft away bare light bulb and the bulb shape is clearly seen. None of the above listed do that. Even without backlighting I can see the lens inside the folded camera.

I assume there is no way to clean this coating and these 'GG' don't need it. The flat outside glass side is normal and cleanable.

Anybody know the history and how they were made?

Any other GG made this way?

Jac@stafford.net
4-Nov-2016, 13:03
Randy, I once received a ground glass that was actually window glass coated with hair spray.
Might you have the same?
.

Tin Can
4-Nov-2016, 13:13
Randy, I once received a ground glass that was actually window glass coated with hair spray.
Might you have the same?
.

This is factory finished and very well done.

Mark Sampson
4-Nov-2016, 13:22
For many years I used, and then owned, an 8x10 Kodak Master camera. I liked its groundglass with those proportion lines on it, although I didn't find it notably superior in brightness to anything else. Never thought to wonder how it was made, either. I will say, from working there for so long, that the Kodak optics people were capable of some pretty spectacular and innovative work... certainly in the 1950s when those cameras were in production. Sorry not to be more help, but the camera (and its original GG) went to a forum member about five years back.

Jim Noel
4-Nov-2016, 15:20
Randy, I don't know what it is, but would sure like to have its' brother.

Tin Can
4-Nov-2016, 15:39
For many years I used, and then owned, an 8x10 Kodak Master camera. I liked its groundglass with those proportion lines on it, although I didn't find it notably superior in brightness to anything else. Never thought to wonder how it was made, either. I will say, from working there for so long, that the Kodak optics people were capable of some pretty spectacular and innovative work... certainly in the 1950s when those cameras were in production. Sorry not to be more help, but the camera (and its original GG) went to a forum member about five years back.

The KMV is a superb design and execution. A big company with top notch R&D can produce some unique solutions. The KMV has them.

I only wonder where all the lens boards went...

No problem!

Tin Can
4-Nov-2016, 16:02
Years ago when I was making parts for these cameras I looked for ways to duplicate the original ground glass. I found a company that makes a spray for applying to glass that is actually ground glass in a liquid medium. I never got around to testing it, but I have the sample quart they sent me somewhere buried in my house.

I just tried to photograph it. I need a microscope.

I see no grain or ground up glass. It is very precisely applied.

Here's a cell phone snap of the clear glass lines.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5512/30145688193_54bb1b5a97_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/MVSwQH)KMV GG (https://flic.kr/p/MVSwQH) by moe.randy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

Patrick13
4-Nov-2016, 16:34
There also used to be lightly applied treatments of shellac or wax on a ground glass base which made the central view brighter at the expense of off-axis.
To me this looks like a masked glass with misted coating sprayed on, then the mask pulled away. The coating could be finely ground glass, anything translucent really.

Tin Can
5-Nov-2016, 13:32
Maybe somebody will have more detail.

I love the clear lines vs black grids.

Alan Gales
5-Nov-2016, 16:23
I love the clear lines vs black grids.

Yeah, I don't own a Kodak Master but the ground glass sure looks nice! I wish I had one for my Wehman.

Richard Wasserman
5-Nov-2016, 16:39
Randy,

You might ask Michael Smith—he knows as much or more about KMVs than anyone. http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/index.php

Tin Can
5-Nov-2016, 16:52
Randy,

You might ask Michael Smith—he knows as much or more about KMVs than anyone. http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/index.php

Good idea Richard.

I will wait on asking them a bit. I dislike email questions as emails don't share info to the greater forum and community.

I often get general questions in a PM and I always politely request the person to post their question on this forum.

i.e. Build the public database.

barnacle
6-Nov-2016, 13:08
A couple of interesting possibilities here: http://www.ilfordphoto.com/photocommunity/forums/theforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5837

Neil

chris_4622
6-Nov-2016, 17:04
Check over at apug, a former Kodak engineer hangs out there. I think his user name is PhotoEngineer.

Mark Sawyer
6-Nov-2016, 17:18
The original KMV manual states: "The ground glass focusing panel is etched to show 4x5 and 5x7 boundary lines."

Jim Jones
6-Nov-2016, 18:30
. . . I love the clear lines vs black grids.

So do I, and routinely scribe clear lines on traditional GGs with a sharp hard tool. Placing graph paper beneath the GG and using a metal ruler helps one to be quick and accurate.

Tin Can
6-Nov-2016, 19:01
So do I, and routinely scribe clear lines on traditional GGs with a sharp hard tool. Placing graph paper beneath the GG and using a metal ruler helps one to be quick and accurate.

I'll try that.

I prefer DIY for many things. I will be coating a glass soon and scraping lines as you describe.

I also wonder how many KMV OE GG still exist. I may be smart storing the OE and making my own. I tend to break glass...

mdarnton
6-Nov-2016, 20:16
Not specific to Kodak, but I found quite a few articles in old photo mags on ground glass substitutes, using that search phrase. Here's an interesting one: https://books.google.com/books?id=TV5QAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA355 A nice idea I read elsewhere was a mix of gelatin and milk flowed on and dried.

barnacle
7-Nov-2016, 02:39
...a mix of gelatin and milk flowed on and dried.

Sounds a bit cheesy...

Neil

Jim Jones
7-Nov-2016, 06:00
I'll try that.

I prefer DIY for many things. I will be coating a glass soon and scraping lines as you describe.

I also wonder how many KMV OE GG still exist. I may be smart storing the OE and making my own. I tend to break glass...

I've only used the technique on a GG ground with abrasives on glass, and don't know how well that technique works for a coated GG.

LabRat
7-Nov-2016, 06:30
Probably NOT coated... Mike Sparks @ Focal Point once explained to me that the best GG was first blasted fine, and then was fumed with hydrofloric acid, so that there was a combination of a fine grain to focus on, but also an aerial image clear area from the etching so there was best of both worlds on the GG... It was an art to balance these with a % of both... But the acid + process was banned in most countries, with the last being in Belgium, but eventually banned there too... But he said that the art was being lost while production was still legal, and quality slipped away...

But the down side of these GG's was that often the brightness was center weighted, and different FL's had different visual falloff while viewing through them... (A good one was fairly even) The Graflex RB's often had one of these for the viewing GG... You can tell them by magnifying the grain, and there's a very slight gloss and smoothness over it...

Steve K

Tin Can
7-Nov-2016, 06:31
I will be trying both. Glass is cheap. :)



I've only used the technique on a GG ground with abrasives on glass, and don't know how well that technique works for a coated GG.