Two Minute Water Bath before Developer, Good Idea, Waste of Time, or Bad Idea

[Richie]

I learned so much from the thirty replies to my last question on the possible effects of "leaving negatives in the stop bath for 7 minutes". I can't resist asking another question that I have been thinking about. I was taught to soak and agitate my negatives for 2 minutes in water before adding them to developer. I think the rationale was that the developer would start working more quickly and that during the first minute in developer it might act more evenly. That makes some sense from an armchair point of view. I have never experimented. I guess one worrying thought I have is that more soaking would swell the emulsion and perhaps make it more vulnerable to harm like scratches. What do people think about this? Do you pre-soak your negatives before developing? Has anyone seen any data on the issue?

[Taija71A]

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/search.php?searchid=6270462

[Alan9940]

Some do pre-soak while others don't, some manufacturers recommend a pre-soak while others don't recommend it, ying-yang, yadda...yadda. Get the idea? I'm old and crotchety and been pre-soaking my B&W film for 50 years. Don't see any reason not to keep doing it.

[Leigh]

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/search.php?searchid=6270462
That link fails

- Leigh

[angusparker]

Seems to be recommended especially for staining developers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Leigh]

That depends on the developer being used.

For example, Diafine works by being absorbed into the dry emulsion.
A pre-soak will defeat that absorption, resulting in improper development.

Follow the instructions for the developer.

- Leigh

[LabRat]

A good idea if the film is exposed to extremes of temp/humidity/dryness etc...

Let's say you were flying back from hot, humid, SE Asia with a roll of film in your camera... The film would be slightly thicker on portions of the roll due to what part would be unwound inside the camera from the humidity there, then parts would dry out during the long flight home thinning those areas, so come the time to process it, that strip would absorb the first dev unevenly due to the uneven thickness of the emulsion (if extreme) causing uneven base density... But a water bath would "fluff" out the thickness evenly before it hits the dev so it could penetrate evenly...

Always a good thing, but if you fly, it's good to go for the max time (like 5 mins), but good to do for all B/W films, esp old films...

Steve K

[Steve Sherman]

I learned so much from the thirty replies to my last question on the possible effects of "leaving negatives in the stop bath for 7 minutes". I can't resist asking another question that I have been thinking about. I was taught to soak and agitate my negatives for 2 minutes in water before adding them to developer. I think the rationale was that the developer would start working more quickly and that during the first minute in developer it might act more evenly. That makes some sense from an armchair point of view. I have never experimented. I guess one worrying thought I have is that more soaking would swell the emulsion and perhaps make it more vulnerable to harm like scratches. What do people think about this? Do you pre-soak your negatives before developing? Has anyone seen any data on the issue?

This has always been pretty easy for me, no matter who said otherwise. Pick up a Wet spill with a "dry sponge" or a "moist sponge" which one reacts more uniformly. 2-3 minutes is a pretty easy tradeoff !

[Jim Jones]

With very short developing times as when using Solarol to solarize Tech Pan, a pre-wash is absolutely essential. In most instances it seems to make little difference.

[Taija71A]

That link fails - Leigh

No problem.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/search.php?searchid=6270931 (*Or an 'Advanced' Forum Search for "Pre-Soak").

[neil poulsen]

As mentioned, it may depend on the film. I spoke to Ilford about this years ago regarding HP5. They said that the film has wetting agents and recommended against pre-soaking.

[Per Madsen]

I use a pre-soak for both 35 mm and 4" * 5", but is mainly to avoid air bubles and uneven development.

[jnantz]

never presoaked with dk50, was told never to presoak with xtol, but i presoak with everything else.
30 people with give you 30 different answers and reasons for their answers.
i do it because after i process the film and have a tray full of AH dye, i love pouring
it into my tray of developer and seeing it disappear. not really sure other peoples' reasons.

[Jim Jones]

The above two posts are the best reasons yet for a presoak.

[EdSawyer]

Jim, tell me more about this method. I have used solarol before, but only for prints. How do you use it with tech pan directly?

thanks

-Ed



With very short developing times as when using Solarol to solarize Tech Pan, a pre-wash is absolutely essential. In most instances it seems to make little difference.

[jk0592]

I always pre-soak, but have only used Kodak BW film in 35mm, 120 and 4x5 formats, together with Kodak developpers in the last 30-40 years.

[Richie]

As mentioned, it may depend on the film. I spoke to Ilford about this years ago regarding HP5. They said that the film has wetting agents and recommended against pre-soaking.

This maybe a key point since I am using HP5Plus 400. By the way, I am using HC-110 developer.

[Andrew O'Neill]

I only presoak TMY-2, to get rid of antihalation layer, whenever I use BTZS tubes. Ilford doesn't recommend it for their films. When I did it with HP5 sheet film, I got streaks. I think this thinking of presoaking started back in the day of thick emulsion films...

[koraks]

I presoak when rotation developing with pyrocat as per sandy's instructions. I doubt it helps much, but it doesn't hurt either. I think it may be essential when developing x-ray film in divided pyrocat, but haven't eaten extensively. The one or two times I tried this approach without presoak I got the worst mottling I've ever seen.

[Andrew O'Neill]

You should start eating more extensively then...;)

[Lachlan 717]

I presoak 7x17" film, as I don't want uneven initial development.

The film, being so long and in a Jobo, could get a helical development pattern if fresh developer hits dry film.

No science to back this up; just seems to make sense to me.

[John Layton]

I presoak before pyrocat and pmk - and also add to the presoak a few drops of photo-flo to facilitate smooth, scratch-free agitation.

[Drew Wiley]

I always presoak. Always. It preconditions the film to the developing temperature, keeps the sheets from sticking together (which can ruin the evenness of development once in the developer itself), allows the developer to immediately act in a homogenous manner, and minimizes air bubble risk on the emulsion.
No exception for HP5, regardless of tray versus drum development.

[koraks]

You should start eating more extensively then...;)

Autocorrect turns out to know more about me than I thought - it's 1130pm and haven't had dinner yet :p

[Jim Jones]

Jim, tell me more about this method. I have used solarol before, but only for prints. How do you use it with tech pan directly?

thanks

-Ed

It's been years since I've done this. IIRC the Tech Pan is exposed at a fairly high ISO, maybe 250. Tray development is used. The film is placed in a film hanger with something black and opaque behind it such as a fully exposed and developed sheet of film to block reflections from the film hanger. The film hanger prevents the film from floating to the surface of the Solarol. After the pre-rinse the film is placed in the Solarol emulsion side up and agitated for maybe 20 seconds. Then it is left motionless for maybe 25 seconds. At that time you apply the reversal exposure. This must be brief for best results. A small cheap electronic flash works well. The exposure is adjusted by the flash's height above the tray or by a filter. The film is left in the tray without agitation for another 45 seconds and transferred to the stop bath. Finish processing like any other film. With such a short development time the film must be transferred quickly into and out of the developer to prevent uneven development. I use the minimum amount of Solarol possible and discard it after one use. Someone with a good stock of Tech Pan or one of the other high contrast films could experiment and refine this process much more than I did. I've also used litho film, but had problems with pinholes. Litho has the advantage of letting you watch the process under a dim red safelight. It might be best to use it at first while working out a few bugs in the process. In the attached photo the background was black.